User avatar
csturdiv
Posts: 1592
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:33 am

Chinese Regional Jet

Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:24 am

Anybody know more about the Chinese built regional jet, ARJ21-700? Just read about it on:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...aft+production+starts%2c+adds.html

Any idea of what this plane will look like? They say that it will have fuselage mounted engines, so I am guessing that it might look more like the E135/40/45 rather than the E170/75/90/95.
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
egnr
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:31 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting Csturdiv (Thread starter):
Any idea of what this plane will look like? They say that it will have fuselage mounted engines, so I am guessing that it might look more like the E135/40/45 rather than the E170/75/90/95.

Here is some info on the ARJ21. It bears a resemblance to the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/B717... Click
7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
 
RAFVC10
Posts: 1344
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:48 pm

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting EGNR (Reply 1):
Here is some info on the ARJ21. It bears a resemblance to the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/B717...

Yes, the new substituteof the 717. But if the american aircraft seems to not had success... will the chinese imitation enough market to sell it???
El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 2):
Yes, the new substituteof the 717.

Neither a range, capacity, nor performance equivalent to the Boeing 717. The best analogy is a Chinese version of the Fokker F70.

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 2):
But if the american aircraft seems to not had success... will the chinese imitation enough market to sell it???

(1) It's not a B717 immitation

(2) It won't have a chance outside of China. It's up against the more advanced and more capable Embraer E-jets. Major airlines won't give it a look.
 
User avatar
csturdiv
Posts: 1592
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:33 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:22 am

Thanks for the link. I like the superimposed pics of the plane in action.  smile 
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:34 am

Give credit where it's due. The Chinese will clean everyone's clock, it's not a matter of when but if.

And they've made an excellent engine choice.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1224
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:02 am

Lets wake up !! China is on the move towards world leadership thanks to the nice technology transfer. The chinese understand how to copy everything and develop it further. The europeans and specially the americans always believe that we are a step ahead, but the reality is that china is one the way to lead. Imagine what a jet like this will cost, if it was produced by the chinese ?

[Edited 2006-02-19 23:08:17]
B-717/722/737-200/300/400/500/600/700/800/900/B-747-100/200/400/SP/8i/B-752/3/B-762/3/4/B-772/LR/300ER/B-788/DC-10-10/30/L-1011-1/500/MD-81/82/83/90/A-319/320/321/AB6/312/313/332/333/342/343/346/359/388/TU154/IL-18/ATR-42/72/DH4/DH3/E145/E170/190/CR2/7/9
 
LAXDESI
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 6):
The europeans and specially the americans always believe that we are a step ahead, but the reality is that china is one the way to lead. Imagine what a jet like this will cost, if it was produced by the chinese ?

Does anyone have figures on labor cost as a percent of total cost of a regional jet?
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 5):
Give credit where it's due. The Chinese will clean everyone's clock, it's not a matter of when but if.

I suppose your axiom is give hype where others hype?

Far be it from me to throw some reason into the "China will conqoure the world" paradigm, but have you considered that China is but a mere mortal nation capable of economic recession, natural resource shortages, labor discontent, and enviornmental damage? Nothing last forever and in due course, China's growth will stabilize and they will face the same cyclical growth of industrialized nations.

China's nominal GDP growth has been stunning, but even at their amazing 9%, it will be a decade before China is half as large as the EU or US (alone) and twenty years before China reaches the output of the United States today, $12 trillion USD. Assuming a measly 3% growth of the U.S. economy, the US will still double its GDP within twenty years to $24 trillion USD.

Within the time frame of the Chinese RJ, the hegemonic effects of China's economy is totally insignificant.

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 6):
China is on the move towards world leadership thanks to the nice technology transfer.

China will "beat us" if we think China will "beat us" and then we all assume it to be true so we give up investing in our own economy.

It's like an episode of the OC. The US and EU have handled China's rapid industrialization with the maturity, wisdom, and foresight of teenagers going after the same babe.

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 6):
The europeans and specially the americans always believe that we are a step ahead, but the reality is that china is one the way to lead.

And why shouldn't we?

Note the major contractors for this project. GE propulsion, Rockwell avonics. Much of the critical hardware is imported and performance is nothing beyond what 80s-90s western aircraft can perform. This is CRJ200, China remix. Leading the way? Hardly.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 7):
Does anyone have figures on labor cost as a percent of total cost of a regional jet?

For a typical Boeing large aircraft in the mid 1990s (I havn't a clue of RJ), labor is approx 15% of the airframe list price. Average assembly time for an aircraft was about 30 days.

Note that Boeing is/has reducing the 737NG and 777 to approx 12 days. The 787 will aim for three days from the time all parts arrive at Everett to roll-out. That's a 90% labor reduction since 1995 to 2008.

Labor is losing its significance as a huge fraction of aircraft cost as composite manufacturing, pre-fabricated segements, and automated technology reduce assembly time. It will be i-m-p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e for China to compete on the global market with dirt cheap labor alone.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 5):
Give credit where it's due. The Chinese will clean everyone's clock, it's not a matter of when but if.

I suppose your axiom is give hype where others hype?

Far be it from me to throw some reason into the "China will conqoure the world" paradigm, but have you considered that China is but a mere mortal nation capable of economic recession, natural resource shortages, labor discontent, and enviornmental damage? Nothing last forever and in due course, China's growth will stabilize and they will face the same cyclical growth of industrialized nations.

Well, far be it from me to rain on your parade, but is your answer just an extra large helping of bombast with a soupcon of "They're but a bunch of makers of plastic gewgaws and cheap hand tools"?

Considering what they'd accomplished in the last 30 years, they're capable of doing anything they set their minds to. Anything.

Nope. I used to think like you until I ventured to state that if they could pull off the Three Gorges project they could do anything. And what you're advancing is about what I got a-certain and understandable amount of hubris.

Well. They're bringing it in on time and on budget. The single largest hydro plant and human made artifact in the world, ever. Yes. They bought enough generators from France that Alsthom transferred the technology necessary so that they'll finish equipping the powerhouse out of their own production. Oh. By the way when completed it will be a 90 gigawatt powerplant-the largest in the world.

After that, building airplanes will be no huge challenge, and anyone who thinks otherwise is whistling past the graveyard.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9):
Well, far be it from me to rain on your parade, but is your answer just an extra large helping of bombast with a soupcon of "They're but a bunch of makers of plastic gewgaws and cheap hand tools"?

You didn't pick up a bit of what I said. Try again.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9):
"They're but a bunch of makers of plastic gewgaws and cheap hand tools"?

Did you bother looking at the suppliers of the ARJ21? They are using previous generation, western imports. This is not a cutting edge aircraft. In fact, it's largely a rehashed version of aircraft that debut 15 years ago. The Embraer sales team need not worry about the ARJ21.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9):
After that, building airplanes will be no huge challenge, and anyone who thinks otherwise is whistling past the graveyard.

(1) It's a pity civil engineers are largely non-transferable to aerospace projects. Commercial airlines are the highest engineered manufactured good in the world. No, building a dam does not translate into building 737.

(2) If you think Airbus and Boeing have not secured their grip on the current and future generation of large commercial aircraft, you are incredibly dense. Labor is China's biggest advantage. What does Boeing do? Eliminate 90% of the labor required to build their airplanes.

(3) You are demonstrating the exact mentality I warned against. The only way China will "over take" the United States is if dimwitts like you think the U.S. is totally out of the game (and we are sooo not) and stop investing in our economy for that reason. Once that happens, the U.S. will fall behind. People are talking themselves out of a stable and thriving economy, and its rediculous. It's backwards, circular logic.

It's really just perception, and you percieve China to be some invincible dragon. Hey dill, they're going to suffer the same problems every other industrialized nation suffers in due course. China does not possess the raw materials or labor stability to grow indefinitly. There's going to come a time in the next 20-30 years when the Chinese won't put up with the Great Firewall of China.

All nations go through cyclical growth. Why should China be any exception?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9):
Oh. By the way when completed it will be a 90 gigawatt powerplant-the largest in the world.

Yeah, like I'm going to put up with your sass. You have no clue of what you are talking about nor where my position on these issues lies, so why don't you go back to doing what you do best, Flight Simulator perhaps?
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1224
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:01 pm

DFWRevolution:

Turn around your computer and have a look where it has been made.
This will answer the question that China orders everything from our supliers.
The answer: They always do that in order to copy things and make them better and that is fine.

Secondly: Do you think the U.S. have so many friends left in the world that they will be market leaders in the future and countries buying U.S. products currencies etc. ? It will be interesting to see how the U.S. Goverment will react when they will be downgraded year by year and the economy will fail. When the U.S. start wars for oil, what will they do rescure their economy and leadership ? May be World Wars ?

But lets come back to aviation, my guess is the chinese will produce within the next ten years aircrafts certified to our standards for 30-45 % of todays costs.
B-717/722/737-200/300/400/500/600/700/800/900/B-747-100/200/400/SP/8i/B-752/3/B-762/3/4/B-772/LR/300ER/B-788/DC-10-10/30/L-1011-1/500/MD-81/82/83/90/A-319/320/321/AB6/312/313/332/333/342/343/346/359/388/TU154/IL-18/ATR-42/72/DH4/DH3/E145/E170/190/CR2/7/9
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 12):
Turn around your computer and have a look where it has been made.

Not only where it has been made... but increasingly who owns the company. The chinese firm, Lenovo, bought IBM's PC business. I find it symbolic and ironic that the company that "invented" the Personal Computer had that division bought by a chinese company.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
3) You are demonstrating the exact mentality I warned against. The only way China will "over take" the United States is if dimwitts like you think the U.S. is totally out of the game (and we are sooo not) and stop investing in our economy for that reason. Once that happens, the U.S. will fall behind. People are talking themselves out of a stable and thriving economy, and its rediculous. It's backwards, circular logic.

It is mainly arithmetic why China, with a population of over 1.3-billion, will eventually "over take" the US. Bill Gates was talking about this at the Davos Forum and threw out some examples... China has more cell phones than the population of the US, and in a couple of years will have more high-speed internet connections than there are American households. China's and India's middle classes already form a larger market than the US population.

But what the leaders of many leading American high-tech companies are shouting out is that it is the declining standards of the US educational system that will ultimately topple the US from the top of the podium in the future. If you had watched the ABC 20/20 program a few weeks back on the education system you would have been very afraid!

Microsoft has 3 research centers in the world: Cambridge, UK; at HQ in Redmond, Washington; and in Beijing opened in 1998. Bill Gates said "in terms of the quality of ideas that they are turning out," Beijing is now the most productive research arm in the Microsoft system - "it is mind blowing."

As more and more manufacturing and service jobs get out-sourced, the US will have to increasingly rely on high-tech innovation for jobs. However, the US is falling behind in being able to just maintain current levels of high-tech staffing: only 4% of NASA workers are under 30. Every high-tech company has reported similar stats... including Boeing. A National Science Board report pointed out the following nuggets:

- Number of US students who receive a science degree has dropped to 17th place globally.

- The number of US science and engineering Ph.D.'s awarded dropped from 27,000 to 29,000 in a single year, and total engineering undergraduates in the US fell 12% in 15 years.

- Two-thirds of the US mathematics and science teaching force will retire by 2010.

- Asia graduates over 8 times as many engineering students.

- Only 5% of US students graduate with an engineering degree compared to 25% in Russia and 46% in China.

- In 1990, 14% of all US Science & Engineering occupations were held by foreign-born people.

- Between 1990 and 2000, the number of foreign-born Ph.D.'s in American Science and Engineering occupations rose from 24 to 35%; Master's from 19 to 29%; and Bachelor's from 11 to 17%.

It is not just the low level manufacturing and service segment where China (and India) are taking jobs away from Americans, but the high-tech R&D and innovation jobs as well which are the foundations of the economy.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
2) If you think Airbus and Boeing have not secured their grip on the current and future generation of large commercial aircraft, you are incredibly dense.



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 11):
Yeah, like I'm going to put up with your sass. You have no clue of what you are talking about nor where my position on these issues lies, so why don't you go back to doing what you do best, Flight Simulator perhaps?

Noibody asked you to come the acid with me, brother.

I didn't insult you, I disagreed with you. I do not have flight simulator on my computer.

If you read my profile you would have known that, but you're like a few other folks around here with a one dimensional attitude: I'm right, everyone else is wrong if they disagree with me and that makes them all wankers. It's a discredited notion that anyone with the intelligence of a potted geranium would have seen through but you didn't.



So maybe what you ought to do is get your head out of...well, you know where. You'll be able to see a lot better and the air's bound to be fresher.

Oh...and that technology transfer that the Chinese won't learn anything from? It's called an Airbus A320 production line.

game-set-match. Better luck next time.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Midway2AirTran
Posts: 847
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:34 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:10 am

I wouldn't care who builds an a/c as long as it can improve on economics, safety and reliability. Otherwise nobody wants it. Leave it up to the goverment(s) to solve the other issues.
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
CPH757
Posts: 652
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:40 pm

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:38 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
Far be it from me to throw some reason into the "China will conqoure the world" paradigm, but have you considered that China is but a mere mortal nation capable of economic recession, natural resource shortages, labor discontent, and enviornmental damage? Nothing last forever and in due course, China's growth will stabilize and they will face the same cyclical growth of industrialized nations.

Exactly. Everyone seem to exclude that Chinese growth also promote Western growth and vice versa. It is not a matter of "conquor the world" and make everybody else bottom rank economies.

China has shown large growth rates for the last decades, but don't forget all the large problems the country suffer. The vast majority of the population are poor peasants, the pollution level is critical, the political system is not very suitable for investments. Possible to overcome, but it takes many decades. For continueous growth, China also have to overcome problems like the energy supply. It is not feasible to rely on large hydroplants. There are too expensive and time consuming to build, and the cultural and environmental consequences are to large (after the first prestigious one (Three Gorges Dam) has been build). They no longer need to show the rest of the world that they are capable of doing it.

Chinese engineering has a lot to learn. Remember that the draw heavily on engineers from the Western world. The sure have a lot of skilled engineers and other highly educated people, but there are still fundemental differences in the skills. With the risk of pissing some of by generalizing, I would postulate that the Chinese skills are very different to the ones we develop in EU/US. The design phase of a project is still difficult in China. The Chinese educational system and indeed historical circumstances discourage liberate thinking and inventions. This is definitely changing, but it takes generations or at least decades to convert people to this school.

This also mean that highly sofisticated manufacturing like aircraft production eventually will be found in China, based on Chinese knowledge and development. But this will be a result in better schooling, and learning from Foreign projects, like the one Airbus is about to initate. The production of the ARJ21 is not an accomplishment, just another copy of inferior technology, that perhaps has a future for airlines that are very sensitive to price compared to efficiency and reliability factors.
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:04 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
game-set-match. Better luck next time.

How about this: the second one of the ARJ21 flies for a mainstream airline in Europe, North America, or Asia, give me a call and gloat all you want.

I am extremly well versed in economics. If you take the time to read what I wrote, I am not putting China down. If you note, I commented about the amazing potential that is China. If you note, I commented how poorly the EU and US governments have reacted to China's growth. Turn on CNBC and you'd think China was preparing an armed invasion. I don't think like that. I don't regurgitate what I heard on CNN.

I still don't see how you can possibly think that China is immune from the pleathora of issues that face industrialized nations that China has yet to encounter. There are huge challenges facing China in the future, just as large if not larger than what face the EU and US.

Finally, I made this point explicitly clear:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
Within the time frame of the Chinese RJ, the hegemonic effects of China's economy is totally insignificant.

Within the time frame of the Chinese RJ, the hegemonic effects of China's economy is totally insignificant.

Digest that for a second. The ARJ21 is not new technology. It does not offer new performance, capabilities, or economics. It's an aircraft niche that is over-supplied in many markets. The CRJ is in the dumps and its from a reputable OEM. The only group making money in this niche is Embraer, and they've targeted a different niche than this ARJ21.

If you think the ARJ21 is the first Chinese aerospace product that will succeed on the open market, you are sorely mistaken! Might it be one of many precursors to such an aircraft? Perhaps.

That being said, I do not march to the Fox News Financial drum and excuse me for offering totally valid points against the virtually unchallenged notion of today's economic prediction vogue, itself a massive vodoo science. Excuse me for injecting some contrasting thought. Excuse me for offering a different perspective. I am totally out of line  Yeah sure
 
boeingguy1
Posts: 395
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:31 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
IBM's PC business. I find it symbolic and ironic that the company that "invented" the Personal Computer

IBM hardly invented the Personal Computer. Apple brought computers to the home with Macintosh.
And about IBM's computer division, it was slowly lagging behind US PC Giants such as DELL and HP. Think of it this way: IBM may have played a large roll in bringing computers to the mainstream, but companies ushc as Dell, Microsoft and HP have taken their technology and made it better. Just as the Wright Brothers invented the airplane, others took upon their designs and improved it; IE Douglas and Boeing.
Gatwick South! Id rather crash in Brighton!
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 17):
How about this: the second one of the ARJ21 flies for a mainstream airline in Europe, North America, or Asia, give me a call and gloat all you want.

How about this. You stop running your mouth for a minute and go back and read my critique of what you said. You implied I was some sort of flight simulator toting snot because I disagreed with you. Completely off point and off topic.

I disagreed with you and you treated me as if I was some moron off the street-and that's a fact.

You just can't get it through your head that there are other, equally valid opinions in this world, and they don't all come from idiots just because they are different than your opinion. The rest of us are just as rational as you are-maybe more so.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1664
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:11 pm

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:53 pm

Whilst China has there problems, as noted above, they are learinng a great deal on quality and process. Go to any major hotel in any major city, hunt out the conference rooms and I'll bet that at least one has Quality, Six Sigma, or Lean principles being taught.

Would I pick their airplane today over a western product, highly doubtfull. They still have a long way to go on producing items that are worth millions upon millions of dollars. If it cost 75 retail, the manufactures in China probably sold it for 10, meaning the guys in western countries can simply throw a portion in the rubish, but it still cheaper then manufacturing these in the US or EU. But, IKEA, Walmart and everyone else have people here teaching the manufactures to improve their quality... (little less in the rubish can or Ebay I suppose).

Personally, I think the ARJ will be lucky to sale a couple hundred, even if they do get FAA certification (which isn't a given).

Cheers
 
GVWOW
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:09 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:30 am

If Virgin Atlantic where to buy it, SRB would name it Maidin China.
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1936
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:56 am

Perhaps the Chinese airlines wish to be patriotic and buy the ARJ in huge numbers instead of buying from EMB or BBD or RRJ...
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
aeronut
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:41 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 22):
Perhaps the Chinese airlines wish to be patriotic and buy the ARJ in huge numbers instead of buying from EMB or BBD or RRJ...

They were supposed to be a major partner in the Bombardier C-Series. I wonder how much of what they learned from BBD will be incorporated into their own RJ program...
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:21 pm

Quoting Aeronut (Reply 23):
They were supposed to be a major partner in the Bombardier C-Series. I wonder how much of what they learned from BBD will be incorporated into their own RJ program...

They were never, nor were supposed to be, a major BBD partner. In any case, the ARJ was launched before the C-Series program was even unveiled.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
aeronut
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:41 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 24):
Quoting Aeronut (Reply 23):
They were supposed to be a major partner in the Bombardier C-Series. I wonder how much of what they learned from BBD will be incorporated into their own RJ program...

They were never, nor were supposed to be, a major BBD partner. In any case, the ARJ was launched before the C-Series program was even unveiled.

Got this article off of bloomberg..

Bombardier Inc. says it's in talks with China Aviation Industry Corp. I to produce parts for a new, larger jet, three weeks after the airliner program was suspended. AVIC I, China's biggest aircraft maker, will make "some major components" for the proposed C Series plane if it is revived, Benjamin Boehm, Bombardier's commercial-plane program director, said at the Asian Aerospace 2006 show in Singapore yesterday. Montreal-based Bombardier shelved plans to develop a new line of jets seating 110 to 130 passengers because it failed to sign up any airline customers. The program might resume next year, the company has said. BBD.SV.B (TSX) rose 7 cents to $2.97.

As far as I know and from what I have read, China was gonna be a big participant in this program. Perhaps a non-issue now as it was cancelled. While the program was launched before C-Series, there have been some recent configuration changes.
 
Rainmaker
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:34 pm

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:11 am

Hello guys!
Even though some of you find it hard to digest sometimes, I find it extremely amusing when any interesting topic gets heated debate.

Anyway, the Chinese hype... from EMB reports I´ve read and heard, AVIC II, which is partnering with EMB to assemble ERJ-145 in China is not a top-notch production facility. But that is ok, I guess. It seems that the plant is located in a kind of poor region in China and so be it. If they were highly efficient they wouldn´t be poor over there. But they can learn and improve just like any other human society.

I mean, people try to fantasize a lot about countries being single entities as themselves and it was reasonable for some time in the 20th century with all that totalitarian governments, "dirigisme" and all. The point is that the world economy is so integrated that no government can influence it very much. Yes, China will grow. It may even attain the importance it once had like 6 or 7 hundred years ago. Remember that the European commercial and later industrial revolution put too much economic and political weight on europe/north america. This imbalance can´t last forever. It´s just not natural. People are just the same everywhere. They see they copy they learn, so what? does it mean that Lenovo is part of a Chinese conspiracy to conquer the world? I don´t think so. They just mean business. Just like everyone else.

The ARJ21 is not going to be a commercial success, but for the Chinese government it is important to maintain an aerospace industrial base in the country even though it is not profitable. They are pouring money in a feasible project, which is designing a plane with proven technology, rockwell avionics, CRJ/EMB engines, and all.

In fact subsidizing the local aerospace industry is nothing new is it? Canadians, Brazilians, French, American, British, Japanese guys, have you seen it before? I bet you have!

Cheers guys and let´s maintain it lively!
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting Aeronut (Reply 25):
As far as I know and from what I have read, China was gonna be a big participant in this program. Perhaps a non-issue now as it was cancelled. While the program was launched before C-Series, there have been some recent configuration changes.

I know that you read that but unfortunately it was just BBD BS that is fed to the news media. It is just like the reports on BBD investing in the RRJ.

What actually happened is that BBD talked (in desperation) to Shenyang Aircraft (SAC) near the end of last year about becoming a risk-sharing partner after no airline would step up to the plate with any tangible CSeries interest.

The recent configuration changes to the ARJ21's design has absolutely nothing to do with BBD or the CSeries.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3637
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:57 am

Is it me, or did they change the design? I thought it used to look similar to a CRJ? Maybe that was the Russian built one.

It sure looks darn close to the design of the DC-9 and 717 together. Even the cockpit windows!

Sure would be interesting to see NWA put some winglets on some of their hot rods!  Smile
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
RIX
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: Chinese Regional Jet

Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
It is mainly arithmetic why China, with a population of over 1.3-billion, will eventually "over take" the US... China has more cell phones than the population of the US, and in a couple of years will have more high-speed internet connections than there are American households. China's and India's middle classes already form a larger market than the US population.

- so? Does it mean that China has already "overtaken", say, Belgium? Or Sweden? A perfect example of senseless playing with numbers.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 13):
Only 5% of US students graduate with an engineering degree compared to 25% in Russia and 46% in China.

- when my Scientific Communism teacher (back in the former USSR) proudly said something like this, a friend of mine asked, "and who needs that many of them?" Many "engineer" positions there were equivalent to a technician in the West. What are those "engineering degrees", how much of them the economy really needs, % of what total degrees amount they are? Another perfect example of senseless playing with numbers.


Back to the topic: DC9 is immortal Big grin.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Andy33, Baidu [Spider], flipdewaf, hi_flyer, hoons90, ikolkyo, jking629, LAX772LR, MGA86, NolaMD88fan, PA727, PlanesNTrains, tcaeyx, Unflug, Yahoo [Bot] and 291 guests