wdleiser
Posts: 865
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:32 am

How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:46 pm

Who all flies to North Korea? I don't think many if any airlines fly from or to North Korea. Possibly some flights from Russia or China maybe? If so, what aircraft do they fly?

Does anyone have any idea what inter North Korean air service could be like? I'd imagine not good at all. I also wonder, if North Korea has had many accidents that none of us have known about.


Thoughts and facts are welcomed!
 
MKEdude
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 9:55 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:54 pm

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
I also wonder, if North Korea has had many accidents that none of us have known about.

Korean Air does charter flights to Poyngyang from time to time. And I have heard that there are some Chinese airlines allowed to land as well, but not on a regularly scheduled basis.

This was the only incident item I could find, it does not specifically mention Air Koyro though.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/operator/airline.php?var=5061
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 20472
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:03 pm

A fair number of airlines (including some US ones) transit North Korean airspace particularly on routing from China and South Korea headed up and across the Pacific.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
777fan
Posts: 2256
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:24 pm

Good question. Air Koryo has got to be one of the most obscure airlines in the world. Does anyone know anyone that's even flown them?!
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
as739x
Posts: 5018
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:23 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:05 pm

They don't exactly have a problem with Nimby's!


ASLAX
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
Flyer732
Posts: 1321
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 6:09 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:16 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 3):
Good question. Air Koryo has got to be one of the most obscure airlines in the world. Does anyone know anyone that's even flown them?!

There is a trip report on Flyer Talk from someone who flew them out of PEK, I think he is either British or American if I remember correctly.
 
ehho
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:26 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:26 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
A fair number of airlines (including some US ones) transit North Korean airspace particularly on routing from China and South Korea headed up and across the Pacific.

Do they really? My dad recently took the NW A330 flight NRT-PEK and the captain actually went on the intercom to explain the loop they were taking to avoid North Korean airspace. On the other hand, when I flew PTY-EWR woth CO in 2004, we just went strait across Cuba. Still, Cuba isn't North Korea: I doubt US aircraft ever access their airspace.
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
jsnww81
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:55 pm

Air Koryo still put a printed "timetable" in the winter of 2004-2005, although I don't know how closely they actually follow it. They also still have a ticket office in Berlin, which I tried to visit but it was closed on Saturdays.  Sad

I thought one of the Chinese carriers - Air China or China Eastern - still served Pyongyang once or twice a week, but I guess not.

If you look up the Google Maps satellite image for Pyongyang airport (it's north of the city) you can see they have an older runway and a much newer, much longer runway that actually crosses a road!
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1635
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
A fair number of airlines (including some US ones) transit North Korean airspace particularly on routing from China and South Korea headed up and across the Pacific.

No US aircraft, passenger or military is allowed into thier airspace, We also even try to avoid Cuba but not always. Thats why JFK KIN on AA and JM have up to an hour difference even though they leave only 20 min apart.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:45 pm

North Korean aviation is hamstrung by Kim Jong Il and his absolute hatred of flying. He'll take a train to Beijing even though it takes days to get there and months of planning.

That's one reason aviation in the DPRK is so limited, as well as sanctions and the general poverty of that nation. The Government has practically zero interest in it due to the Dear Leader.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
User avatar
Dalavia
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:08 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:54 pm

I have flown on Air Koryo three times now, always between Beijing and Pyongyang. I've had two flights on the Tu-154 and one flight on an Il-62.

Although their planes are quite old, they are in immaculate condition - low flying hours I guess.

The flights were smooth and the service quite good; obviously no inflight movies but good large meals and lots of reading materials available.

The only really 'unusual' experience I have had was once on take-off in Beijing when the cabin staff were walking along the aisle as the aircraft was rotating and lifting off!

Air Koryo is different in that unlike most airlines which have calm quiet music as you enter, Air Koryo plays strident orchestral military music, accompanied by the Mass Choir of the Korean People's Army - songs such as 'Peace is on the end of our bayonet' and 'The Dear One (Kim Jong Il) is With Us'.

I understand that only 6 international flights arrive in North Korea each week, all operated by Air Koryo. Two flights per week are from Beijing, one from Shenyang, one from Vladivostok, one from Khabarovsk and one from ... somewhere else, I'm not sure.

Some Chinese airlines used to fly into North Korea, but I understand they have all stopped flying because of low loads. All the flights I have experienced have been on full or almost full planes, even during the cold winter months.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Tang - HKAEC
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Xiao xiao



Flights to/from Beijing are usually Il-62s, although Tu-154s operate in the colder months. For the flights to Shenyang, Tu-134s are used. Tu-154s operate the flights to Kbabarovsk and Vladivostok. Occasionally, large demand for seats leads to a supplementary flight between Pyongyang and Beijing, usually using an Il-18.

Now THAT would be an experience in the year 2006! I wonder if it is last Il-18 passenger service still flying.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Red-Phoenix AirPics
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Superaccipiter



I am booked to fly with Air Koryo again next month. Needless to say, I am really looking forward to it!

[Edited 2006-02-20 14:57:34]
 
flightopsguy
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:51 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 8):
No US aircraft, passenger or military is allowed into thier airspace, We also even try to avoid Cuba but not always. Thats why JFK KIN on AA and JM have up to an hour difference even though they leave only 20 min apart.

Avoiding Cuba is a matter of choice. US carriers have been flying over Cuba for more than 30 years. I did so on EA back in 1970. It's whether the airline wants to pay the nav/atc charges and for a permit. No political issues. Several US carriers have operated flights to Havana in the recent past as non-sked charters (I think that program ended about 5-7 years ago).
A300-330 BAC111/146/J31/41 B99/1900 CV580 B707-777 DC8/9/10 L188/1011 FH227/28/100 SB340 DO228 EMB2/170 CR2-900 SH330-60
 
flymia
Posts: 6839
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 11):
Several US carriers have operated flights to Havana in the recent past as non-sked charters (I think that program ended about 5-7 years ago).

AA and AE still fly charters from MIA to several different Cuban cities. CO and Gulfstream International also offer flights to Cuba from MIA on special charters and I think UA does sometimes too. Still going on now.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
777fan
Posts: 2256
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 10):
I am booked to fly with Air Koryo again next month. Needless to say, I am really looking forward to it!

Awesome! Does anyone have pics of the interiors of Air Koryo a/c or of their airport?! I've heard that people are repeatedly told not to take pics by the flight crew. Do they fly anywhere other than PEK or Russia?!

North Korea fascinates me. From what I've read, Pyongyang (and the rest of the country) is stuck in a time warp. The capital is supposed to be like a Cold War era museum to Stalinism and the Kim family!

I'd love to visit but don't think Americans are allowed to travel there. Anyone have any insight on this?
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2002 8:08 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 13):
North Korea fascinates me. From what I've read, Pyongyang (and the rest of the country) is stuck in a time warp. The capital is supposed to be like a Cold War era museum to Stalinism and the Kim family!

I'd love to visit but don't think Americans are allowed to travel there. Anyone have any insight on this?

I think that Americans are only allowed to travel there in the Ariring Mass Games period in August/ September.

This company offers tours for Americans during that period;

http://www.koryogroup.com/tours/index.html

I too would love to go. I never got to see any of the Soviet Union, so North Korea is my last chance to get an idea of what the cold war was like.
 
777fan
Posts: 2256
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:29 am

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 14):
I too would love to go. I never got to see any of the Soviet Union, so North Korea is my last chance to get an idea of what the cold war was like.

Cool! Thanks for the link. Kinda funny (but not surprising) that they have separate trips for Americans. I'd have to say that while it'd be tempting to take the train in/out, I think I'd take the chance to fly a relic IL-62!

If anyone has flown Air Koryo, please, do tell!
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
swissgabe
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 4:57 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 9):
North Korean aviation is hamstrung by Kim Jong Il and his absolute hatred of flying. He'll take a train to Beijing even though it takes days to get there and months of planning.

There are regular trains from Pyongyang to Beijing which take less than 24hrs

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 10):
Although their planes are quite old, they are in immaculate condition - low flying hours I guess.
The flights were smooth and the service quite good; obviously no inflight movies but good large meals and lots of reading materials available.

had the same experience ...

Quoting 777fan (Reply 13):
Awesome! Does anyone have pics of the interiors of Air Koryo a/c or of their airport?! I've heard that people are repeatedly told not to take pics by the flight crew. Do they fly anywhere other than PEK or Russia?!

I have some pictures not done by my self but with me on it. Send me an e-mail with your address and I could send it to you.
No, they only fly regular to China and Russia, that's it.
I didn't have any trouble to take pictures of the airport, aircraft and people around. Still you should'nt be too offensive while taking pictures.

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):
I also wonder, if North Korea has had many accidents that none of us have known about.

I only can speak of civil aviation. I don't think JS ever had a fatal crash as their entire fleet is still around at FNJ

Quoting Wdleiser (Thread starter):

Does anyone have any idea what inter North Korean air service could be like?

Domestic air service on a schedule basis doesn't exist. However, domestic flights are operated from time to time using AN4 or IL8 on charter basis. There are several airports in the DPRK but the one used most for tourist is the airport you go while visiting Paekdu Mountain in the north of the country.
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
BBJII
Posts: 831
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:22 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 8):
We also even try to avoid Cuba but not always. Thats why JFK KIN on AA and JM have up to an hour difference even though they leave only 20 min apart.

We send our jets over Cuba all the time. no issues between the Cuban and Us when it come to overflights - as long as the Cubans are pre-advised no later than 3 hours before....and most airlines would have filed there FPL long before that.

 wave 
Remember: The Bird Hit You, You Didn't Hit The Bird.....
 
swissgabe
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 4:57 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 15):
If anyone has flown Air Koryo, please, do tell!

Yes ... I listed some details on Air Koryo under: http://www.northkorea.ch and when visiting my website you will find a Travel Report which I did during my trip into the DPRK.
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
ca2ohHP
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:14 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 13):

Check out this link for a video onboard an Air Koryo IL-62:

http://www.flightlevel350.com/viewer.php?id=2320
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 20472
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting EHHO (Reply 6):
Do they really? My dad recently took the NW A330 flight NRT-PEK and the captain actually went on the intercom to explain the loop they were taking to avoid North Korean airspace. On the other hand, when I flew PTY-EWR woth CO in 2004, we just went strait across Cuba. Still, Cuba isn't North Korea: I doubt US aircraft ever access their airspace



Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 8):
No US aircraft, passenger or military is allowed into thier airspace, We also even try to avoid Cuba but not always. Thats why JFK KIN on AA and JM have up to an hour difference even though they leave only 20 min apart.

Absolutely incorrect.

US airlines can transit North Korea if they desire. All is required as with other countries is to solicit permits ahead of time and subsequently pay the overflight fees.
Transiting North Korea and Russian Far East airspace can save quite a few minutes of flight time versus flying up/down only across Japan.

I have personal arranged for such permits at two large US airlines, and am aware they along with other carriers do transit the Pyongyang FIR if winds favor such routings.

Simply, nothing is taboo about using their airspace, just like Cuba and Iran, North Korea is more then happy to be making revenues in overflight fees.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
swissgabe
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 4:57 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 20):
US airlines can transit North Korea if they desire. All is required as with other countries is to solicit permits ahead of time and subsequently pay the overflight fees.
Transiting North Korea and Russian Far East airspace can save quite a few minutes of flight time versus flying up/down only across Japan.

I have personal arranged for such permits at two large US airlines, and am aware they along with other carriers do transit the Pyongyang FIR if winds favor such routings.

Simply, nothing is taboo about using their airspace, just like Cuba and Iran, North Korea is more then happy to be making revenues in overflight fees.

Absolutely correct. It was only in the late 90s when North Korea allowed US and South Korean (!) carriers to use their airspace for commercial flights. I remember having read somewhere that for flights between Europe and Japan (or vv.) it can happen that an airline could save up to 1 hr of flying time. I don't know if this is realistic or not.
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 20472
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Swissgabe (Reply 21):

Thanks for chiming in. Seems like most people here felt I was hallucinating.

Having spoken to crews whom have transited North Korea, they termed it as "courteous and professional"
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
scalebuilder
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:32 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 10):
I am booked to fly with Air Koryo again next month. Needless to say, I am really looking forward to it

Please share your experience with us. I am sure many in this forum would love to hear about it!  Wink
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
ual4me
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:29 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 7):
Do they really? My dad recently took the NW A330 flight NRT-PEK and the captain actually went on the intercom to explain the loop they were taking to avoid North Korean airspace. On the other hand, when I flew PTY-EWR woth CO in 2004, we just went strait across Cuba. Still, Cuba isn't North Korea: I doubt US aircraft ever access their airspace.

I've flown this same flight-a NW A330 from NRT to PEK. We routed around North Korean Airspace. You could see North Korea as the sun set, but was completely dark-no lights on the ground. Mind you, we were pretty far from the shore.
Where will this amount of cash take me?
 
LH455
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:36 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:55 am

 
L1329II
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:52 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 23):
Please share your experience with us. I am sure many in this forum would love to hear about it!

No kidding, This is all fascinating.
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
atcrick
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:05 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:58 am

I can not believe anybody would want to fly into a country who starves their people in order to supplement their military which is meager at best. This is not a prejudical statement at all. I have been to South Korea and those people across the border are not stable. Their convictions come from a brainwashing from their communist leaders....End this thread.
natch!!
 
L1329II
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:52 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting ATCRick (Reply 27):
I can not believe anybody would want to fly into a country who starves their people in order to supplement their military which is meager at best. This is not a prejudical statement at all. I have been to South Korea and those people across the border are not stable. Their convictions come from a brainwashing from their communist leaders....End this thread.

Relax. This thread started as a simple aviation related question. So I guess the same question shouldnt even be discussed about post coalition Iraq, Cold war Russia and so on... I think its interesting from an aviation perspective to see what this country flies. Plain and simple.
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
User avatar
treebeard787
Posts: 673
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:03 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:14 am

I believe that Air Koryo flies IL-62Ms TU-154s and IL-18Ds between FNJ and PEK. Please let me know if any of my info is incorrect.
Allons-y!
 
User avatar
csturdiv
Posts: 1658
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:33 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:14 am

Do they have any domestic routes? I have only seen references to Pyongyang in this thread.
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
User avatar
Dalavia
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:08 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 13):
From what I've read, Pyongyang (and the rest of the country) is stuck in a time warp. The capital is supposed to be like a Cold War era museum to Stalinism and the Kim family!

Yes, when I flew from Beijing to Pyongyang I adjusted my watch forward one hour, but in reality went back 50 years.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 13):
Does anyone have pics of the interiors of Air Koryo a/c or of their airport?! I've heard that people are repeatedly told not to take pics by the flight crew.

Pyongyang airport is shown at the top of this link (below), and a cabin shot at the bottom, so scroll down at: http://homepage.mac.com/scodrington/Image_Slideshows/PhotoAlbum3.html
and again at the top of http://homepage.mac.com/scodrington/...mage_Slideshows/PhotoAlbum104.html
 
ABpositive
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:36 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:57 am

How open is North Korea to tourism? Any idea which country citizens would/wouldn't be allowed to enter N. Korea?
 
User avatar
Dalavia
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:08 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting ABpositive (Reply 32):
How open is North Korea to tourism? Any idea which country citizens would/wouldn't be allowed to enter N. Korea?

The only people that are routinely denied entry to North Korea are those with passports from South Korea, Israel and USA. However, last year, they were allowing US passport holders into North Korea in tour groups to see the mass games that were being performed at the time.

The rumour is that this will be allowed again this year between August and October, but North Korea is fuelled by rumours, so we will have to wait and see.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 8):
Thats why JFK KIN on AA and JM have up to an hour difference even though they leave only 20 min apart.

I have flown MIA-KIN,MIA-MBJ,JFK-KIN, and JFK-MBJ, and every single time I went over Cuba. Infact, every route that goes to Cental America that I have traveled on has flown over Cuba.
"The low fares airline."
 
sw733
Posts: 5310
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:07 am

While I have not flown on Koryo, I have in fact been to DPRK. It was an experience to say the least. I bumped into someone there who had flown in, and they said it was like flying in the 1970's. I wish we would have flown!
 
atcrick
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:05 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:51 am

oh fyi the cold war, russia and iraq have nothing to do with flights in and out of FNG as this post either. So see last sentence from my previous post. This(as you suggested) is about aviation, not the cold war.
natch!!
 
sw733
Posts: 5310
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting ATCRick (Reply 36):
So idiot, before you insult, at least have your facts straight, which you dont about this thread

Wow, you can surely be taken seriously calling someone an idiot...

Also, something I forgot to mention in my earlier post: To Ca2ohHP

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 19):
Check out this link for a video onboard an Air Koryo IL-62:

http://www.flightlevel350.com/viewer...=2320

Thanks, that was a great video! I was shocked to hear the cabin crew speaking English at the end of that flight. Yes, it's the international language of aviation, but I was still pretty surprised, including at the fact that it sounded like pretty good English too.
 
User avatar
Dalavia
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:08 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:02 am

Quoting ATCRick (Reply 27):
I can not believe anybody would want to fly into a country who starves their people in order to supplement their military which is meager at best.

The ethics of tourism are never simple.

Each year, fewer than 2000 foreigners visit North Korea. This is a deliberate policy by the North Korean government to control the flow of information and new ideas. The media in North Korea is a tight government monopoly, so outside visitors are really the only threat to this monopoly of information.

The experiences of Eastern Europe and China show that reform only begins when new ideas flow in. So if ATCRick was really concerned to bring about change in North Korea, the best way would be to encourage foreigners to go and visit, not to stay away.

To have foreigners staying away is precisely what the government there needs to retain control of ideas and information!
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2228
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 14):
I too would love to go. I never got to see any of the Soviet Union, so North Korea is my last chance to get an idea of what the cold war was like.

I just got back from Vietnam, and although I am sure is doesn't compare to North Korea, there are still some remnants of the Cold War in view, especially the "Voice of Vietnam" being aired daily through loud speakers and when you visit the tomb of Ho Chi Minh in Hanoi.

Quoting ATCRick (Reply 27):
I can not believe anybody would want to fly into a country who starves their people in order to supplement their military which is meager at best. This is not a prejudical statement at all. I have been to South Korea and those people across the border are not stable. Their convictions come from a brainwashing from their communist leaders....End this thread.



Quoting ATCRick (Reply 36):
First of all i am quite relaxed as most members of A.net would tell you. Second, check the subject. It had nothing to do with what they fly. It had to do with who flies in and out of there. So idiot, before you insult, at least have your facts straight, which you dont about this thread. Because of terms of service, I wont tell you to blow me.



Quoting ATCRick (Reply 37):
oh fyi the cold war, russia and iraq have nothing to do with flights in and out of FNG as this post either. So see last sentence from my previous post. This(as you suggested) is about aviation, not the cold war.

You sure don't sound relaxed to me. How does the thread title "How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?" warrant your request to have this thread ended and what is it about this thread title that is recomending people travelling to North Korea. I think everyone on this thread would agree that the North Korean regime is horrible, but it doesn't mean we can discuss the state of the aviation industry related to this country and find the subject fascinating. Also, what in L1329II's post insulted you, warrants you calling him an idiot and the other vulgar language you used? Here was L1329II's post for reference. Get some help Rick.

Quoting L1329II (Reply 28):
Relax. This thread started as a simple aviation related question. So I guess the same question shouldnt even be discussed about post coalition Iraq, Cold war Russia and so on... I think its interesting from an aviation perspective to see what this country flies. Plain and simple.
 
UpperDeck79
Posts: 1062
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:14 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:58 am

I flew Pyongyang-Beijing on Air Koryo Il-62M (P-885, JS151) last Aug

We had taken the train there (4 times a week, 24 hours, very nice sleeping compartments) and wanted to fly back (of course all of this had to be arranged well in advance).

The airport is tiny, only two flights out that day: one to Beijing, one to Shenyang. We boarded with a bus like always in Pyongyang (no jetbridges) and as this happens every time and the location of the aircraft is quite the same, I also took photos exactly like these:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gabriel Mueller
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Christian Waser



Quoting Dalavia (Reply 10):
I understand that only 6 international flights arrive in North Korea each week, all operated by Air Koryo. Two flights per week are from Beijing, one from Shenyang, one from Vladivostok, one from Khabarovsk and one from ... somewhere else, I'm not sure.

I believe you are correct. There used to be flights to Macau but not anymore (charters maybe). Air Koryo flights can be found from OAG.com.

Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 7):
I thought one of the Chinese carriers - Air China or China Eastern - still served Pyongyang once or twice a week, but I guess not.

Yes, they used to fly there, but not anymore.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 9):
He'll take a train to Beijing even though it takes days to get there and months of planning.

Ours was about 4 hours late (took about 12 hours to travel about 200 km from the boarder to Pyongyang), but otherwise the journey should be no hassle, four night trains a week from Beijing.

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 10):
The flights were smooth and the service quite good; obviously no inflight movies but good large meals and lots of reading materials available.

My only reading material was a magazine of some sort and they served us coffee and -- hamburgers! Big grin

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 10):
All the flights I have experienced have been on full or almost full planes, even during the cold winter months.

Ours was full to the last seat. Our confirmed seats had actually been cancelled a few days earlier because of the 6-party talks in Beijing (all the seats were saved for the negotiators), but luckily we were given OK one day after. There were about 9 westerners on our flight, all seated at the four or so last rows next to the engines (which I didn't mind at all, look awesome!).

Quoting 777fan (Reply 13):
Does anyone have pics of the interiors of Air Koryo a/c or of their airport?!

I do. Maybe I should try to upload one of them to the database. I did try to upload one of photos I took of the P-885 standing on the tarmac but I was given "bad motiv".  Sad

Quoting 777fan (Reply 13):
From what I've read, Pyongyang (and the rest of the country) is stuck in a time warp.

Arriving at Pyongyang railway station exactly at midnight with minimun illumination felt totally like arriving to a movie from the 1950's. Incredible.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 13):
I'd love to visit but don't think Americans are allowed to travel there. Anyone have any insight on this?

They took about 100 Americans for the mass games last fall, IIRC, so you could try your luck this year! Plan ahead, though.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 15):
I'd have to say that while it'd be tempting to take the train in/out, I think I'd take the chance to fly a relic IL-62!

Take on of them in, one out like we did! Arriving by train was awesome as you could see the change in the landscape from China.

Quoting ABpositive (Reply 32):
How open is North Korea to tourism? Any idea which country citizens would/wouldn't be allowed to enter N. Korea?

Like someone said earlier, everybody else except South Koreans and Americans should have no problem. South Koreans are only allowed to take part in the family reunion visits and visits to Peakdu mountain, which is done by bus across the DMZ (!!!) but with having no contact at all with any cities in the North (and no stamps to passports).
AY and ANA rock!
 
User avatar
Dalavia
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:08 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 41):
There used to be flights to Macau but not anymore (charters maybe). Air Koryo flights can be found from OAG.com.

I heard that the flights to Macau were very irregular, and only flew when a high ranking official had some money to launder through the casinos there!

But, as I said in an earlier post, North Korea thrives on rumours, so I don't know if this was true or not.
 
centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 7):
If you look up the Google Maps satellite image for Pyongyang airport (it's north of the city) you can see they have an older runway and a much newer, much longer runway that actually crosses a road!

Back when Junichiro Koizumi (Japanese PM) visited Pyongyang he went on the government 744s.

A year later a chartered NH 777 was flown to Pyongyang to bring back Charles Jenkins, an American married to a Japanese national who had been kidnapped in the 1970s as well as the supposed remains of another kidnapped Japanese named Megumi Yokota (Later DNA tests proved it not to be her...big problem for the DPRK).

Those planes would need the longer runway I would think.

One of the agreements made between Madeline Albreit and Kim Jong Il back in the Clinton years was the opening of use of Airspace for commercial use. It was a small step in the hopes of eventually normalizing relations.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
beechnut
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 31):
Pyongyang airport is shown at the top of this link (below), and a cabin shot at the bottom, so scroll down at:

Actually, all your photos of N. Korea are very fascinating. I have been a frequent visitor to South Korea and the contrast is amazing. You're right, a trip back 50 years!

Beech
 
scalebuilder
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:32 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:44 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 40):
I think everyone on this thread would agree that the North Korean regime is horrible, but it doesn't mean we can discuss the state of the aviation industry related to this country and find the subject fascinating.

Great point.

By no means do I endorse or support the politics of the DPRK, but I am with you: it is fascinating to read about people's travel experiences to this secluded country. There is an audience out there who would love to hear about it - differences or not.
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
georgiabill
Posts: 778
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:48 am

I believe Air Koryo owns the last IL62M produced. Their fleet includes TU154B's,TU-134A's, IL18's and I believe AN-24's. I maybe wrong,but I am trying to remember an article on the carrier. I have seen the IL-62M, TU154B's and TU134A's in Bejing.
 
rwsea
Posts: 2426
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:58 am

Quoting ATCRick (Reply 27):
I can not believe anybody would want to fly into a country who starves their people in order to supplement their military which is meager at best. This is not a prejudical statement at all. I have been to South Korea and those people across the border are not stable. Their convictions come from a brainwashing from their communist leaders....End this thread.

Hmm, well your own country continuously cuts aid to the poor in favor of an ever-increasing military budget, so I wouldn't exactly single out the DPRK ...
 
centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:03 am

The photos were amazing. All the people in my office were circling around my desk looking at them. Japanese are fascinated with the DPRK mainly because of the abduction issue.

Wonder what Air Koryo will do when they want to replace some of their older planes. Won't happen of course for another 30 years or so but still. I guess AN, TU and IL will still have at least one operator to sell to.

Didn't Air Koryo have service to Macau for a while?

When Kim Jong Il dies or leaves office, his (third) son will take over (as is the report). That son flies all over the place and studied in an international school in Bern I believe. (Hey PM did you ever meet him?)

Would be curious to see how the DPRK will change once the Great Erotic Ralph Crandon-dressed Pimp dies/leaves office.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
AirAmericaC46
Posts: 489
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:23 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:25 am

Anybody knows all the domestic flights in North Korea? routes and type of aircraft used?
 
User avatar
Dalavia
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:08 pm

RE: How Much Air Traffic Does North Korea Have?

Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting AirAmericaC46 (Reply 49):
Anybody knows all the domestic flights in North Korea? routes and type of aircraft used?

As far as I know, the only domestic flights in North Korea are non-scheduled charter flights.

The flights are usually on Antonov An-24s, and take groups of foreigners to the northern "sacred mountain" Mount Paekdu.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © SIBILLE Regis

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos