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N328KF
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WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:27 am

Brief fair use excerpt:
Beijing Firms Up Deal To Buy 80 More Boeing Jets

SINGAPORE -- Beijing is firming up an oral agreement to buy 80 more Boeing 737s three months after making its first, written commitment for 70 of the aircraft during President Bush's visit to China, a senior Boeing executive said.

Completion of the combined 150-jet deal, which could come during Chinese President Hu Jintao's planned visit to the U.S. in April, would make it the biggest batch of Boeing planes to be sold in China so far.

Chinese aviation authorities have already signed contracts and paid deposits for the initial 70 single-aisle 737s that they committed to buy when Mr. Bush traveled to China in November, said Larry Dickenson, senior vice president for the Asia-Pacific region for Boeing's commercial aircraft unit. That sale, at list prices, is valued at about $4 billion, though buyers usually get substantial discounts, especially for large orders.

[...]


[Edited 2006-02-21 17:58:33]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
CX747
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:32 am

Congratulations to Boeing, Chinese Airlines and the 737.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
tinpusher007
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:45 am

Do you think Boeing new what they were doing when they built this 737?
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Boeing Nut
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 2):
Do you think Boeing new what they were doing when they built this 737?

Nah, it'll never sell.  Wink
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
ikramerica
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:48 am

This was my belief all along. China orders are political. And it's one reason that Boeing says Airbus was lying about their 150 firmed orders in 2005 for the A320. Boeing likely had THE SAME deal at the time, but didn't feel it was right to list all 150 at that time, and got pissed when Airbus took liberties to 'win' the year. Just my take on the whole thing. Either way, they both sold about the same number of planes, with or without the China order.
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Oykie
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:48 am

It will be very interesting to see where they will deploy all airplanes. ATW had an article which said that there are just 194 certified airports in China, compared to 14807 Airports in the US, 444 in Australia and tiny Iceland has 100 airports.
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NYC777
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:59 am

It seems to me that Boeing is being a bit more honest in accounting for when orders are firmed and deposits are paid.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
WINGS
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:11 am

Congratulations to both Boeing and China. This had been rumoured for some time but its good to get a final confirmation. Its always great to see this old girl attract some major orders. But just like the 150 A320 order, this is nothing more than politacly motivated.


Looks like 2006 is also starting of well for comercial aviation.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
flyinghippo
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 6):
It seems to me that Boeing is being a bit more honest in accounting for when orders are firmed and deposits are paid

I wouldn't call Airbus dishonest, or Boeing "honest"... Different companies in different countries have different way of doing things...
 
cuprita
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:36 am

Fantastic news for Boeing.
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N328KF
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 8):
I wouldn't call Airbus dishonest, or Boeing "honest"... Different companies in different countries have different way of doing things...

The fact is that what some people are alleging that Airbus did is not legal under GAAP. While GAAP is a U.S. standard, the EU is slowly moving towards it.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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lightsaber
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 5):
ATW had an article which said that there are just 194 certified airports in China, compared to 14807 Airports in the US, 444 in Australia and tiny Iceland has 100 airports.

While the CIA factbook agrees with your total numbers, you must subtract out *unpaved runways* for commercial service (I don't think a dirt runway could support a 737!). Also, the 737 isn't operating on a <914m runway...:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

Personally, I wouldn't consider runways below 1.5km suitable either:
US airports: I count 414 with 2438m+ runways, 1816 airports with 1524m+!

Quote:
Airports - with paved runways:
Definition Field Listing
total: 5,120
over 3,047 m: 191
2,438 to 3,047 m: 223
1,524 to 2,437 m: 1,402
914 to 1,523 m: 2,355
under 914 m: 949 (2005 est.)

china 174 with 2437m+ runways, 313 with 1524m+ (so China is doing ok):

Quote:
Airports - with paved runways:
Definition Field Listing
total: 389
over 3,047 m: 54
2,438 to 3,047 m: 120
1,524 to 2,437 m: 139
914 to 1,523 m: 23
under 914 m: 53 (2005 est.)

iceland: 1 with a runway over 2438m, 4 with 1,524m+ runways.

Quote:
Airports - with paved runways:
Definition Field Listing
total: 5
over 3,047 m: 1
1,524 to 2,437 m: 3
914 to 1,523 m: 1 (2005 est.)

So with 313 airports in China ready for the 737, they'll do ok.

Congrats to Boeing on this large sale. Will these be made on the 2nd 737 line?

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
flyinghippo
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 10):
The fact is that what some people are alleging that Airbus did is not legal under GAAP. While GAAP is a U.S. standard, the EU is slowly moving towards it.

Exactly. So Airbus did not break any laws by posting their Chinese orders on their 2005 books. If EU adopts GAAP in 2006, Airbus cannot follow the same practice.
 
airfrnt
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 6):
It seems to me that Boeing is being a bit more honest in accounting for when orders are firmed and deposits are paid.

More to the point, Boeing can't get away with the Shennanigans Airbus pulled at the end of the year. The investors, media and government would jump all over them.

a) Because Boeing has active investigations for some of their actions under Condit.
b) Because moving up orders like this and "warming up the books" was a direct factor in the .COM crash.

Airbus can get away with the same actions because the European laws are different, they don't have the same stigma, and the .COM crash happened in America, not Europe.

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 12):

Exactly. So Airbus did not break any laws by posting their Chinese orders on their 2005 books. If EU adopts GAAP in 2006, Airbus cannot follow the same practice.

Airbus is protected from a ton of different reporting requirements because of the unique EADS/Airbus structure. It should be noted that the new accounting rules (Sarbenes/Oxley) in America are far stricter still then GAAP when it comes to reporting requirements.
 
eraugrad02
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:27 am

I wonder if any of these orders will be for the -900ER? I hope so.
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Oykie
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):

Thank you Lightsaber, for a very interesting post. I have been looking at the world fact-book, but never realised this.

One might expect that China eventually someday will surpass the US in the number of airports considering the population in the US compared to China.  Smile


US Population 295,734,134 (July 2005 est.)
China population 1,306,313,812 (July 2005 est.)
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
airfrnt
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 15):
US Population 295,734,134 (July 2005 est.)

IIRC, The US will/has passed 300MM people some time this month. By 2020 The US will be larger then the entire EU population.
 
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TK787
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 16):
By 2020 The US will be larger then the entire EU population.

Huh?
US population might be around 350mil, by 2020.
EU is already 450mil, by 2020 could be around 600mil. (Ukraine, Turkey and others joining)
 
aerokiwi
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:11 am

Yes but isn't the EU population actually declining due to low birth rates and an aging population?
 
whitehatter
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 18):
Yes but isn't the EU population actually declining due to low birth rates and an aging population?

but will increase when the next set of nations join. One day even Russia could apply although I doubt that will happen due to geography and many other factors.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Either way, they both sold about the same number of planes, with or without the China order.

The only people pushing this issue and making allegations are cheerleaders. Bottom line is that both orders are going to happen as there is the demand for both sets of aircraft and then some.

In fact some posters who were making wild allegations about Taiwan and not caring about Boeing sales are now having to eat their words. A little restraint from both sides would be nice.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
wedgetail737
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:55 pm

Maybe there will be some 737-700ER orders from China...you just never know. I think it would be cool to see the order book for the -900ER's to swell.
 
abba
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RE: WSJ: China Firms Up Full 150-frame 737 Deal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:40 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
This was my belief all along. China orders are political. And it's one reason that Boeing says Airbus was lying about their 150 firmed orders in 2005 for the A320. Boeing likely had THE SAME deal at the time, but didn't feel it was right to list all 150 at that time, and got pissed when Airbus took liberties to 'win' the year. Just my take on the whole thing. Either way, they both sold about the same number of planes, with or without the China order.

In China everything is political indeed. However, there was a difference between the Airbus deal and the Boeing deal. With Boeing China was giving the US a certain punishment because GW had come up with some politically sensitive statements before going to China (wasn’t it in Japan he said something about human rights or Taiwan that the Chinese didn’t particularly like?). Boeing, therefore, did not have their 150 at that time. They only got the rest - at least officially - later. Airbus got all theirs at once as no EU head of stat happened to have offended the Chinese sensitivities right before the order was to be given.

Abba