amirs
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:08 pm

This might be the end of a long struggle between El Al and almost the rest of the Israeli Tourisn Industry.
After the Israeli Tourist Minister granted Israir permission to offer scheduled flights to NYC, EL AL decided to appeal the decision to BAGATZ (High Court of Justice).
Bagatz today decided to dismiss the appeals. The decision by the court officially pave the way for other carrier to be given flag carrier status to many destination alond side EL AL.

BITTER SWEET day.
 
shlomoz
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 9:36 pm

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:57 pm

Why bittersweet?

Competition is always a good thing. If Haim Romano (LY CEO) plays his cards right, El Al will do just fine. Israir will compete for the bare-bones budget traveller - but can't compete with El Al's FF program (as much as we all complain, it is pretty darn good) nor with El Al's schedule or amenities (e.g. I think the Wi-Fi is going to be a big hit once its in system wide).

For Israir to genuinely compete on NYC-TLV and give LY a run for its money, they need to seriously upgrade their C class seat (nobody cares about the service or menu as much as they care about a comfortable seat, recline and shluf time), get min 3 a/c of recent vintage and invent an FF program connected to another carrier. These are MUSTS - especially the a/c part. I don't see all of these happening AND I think Haim R. is a good CEO with a few tricks up his sleeve. This will bring out the best in LY and make it a better airline AND will benefit all the pax.
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting Shlomoz (Reply 1):
Why bittersweet?

Sweet for end of LY's monopoly on the route, bitter for it being Israir - a terrible company which I will never fly.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
amirs
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 2):
Sweet for end of LY's monopoly on the route, bitter for it being Israir - a terrible company which I will never fly.

Exactly.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:40 pm

Israir should not be flying to anywhere.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 2):
Sweet for end of LY's monopoly on the route

You could always fly CO.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
TimeForFlight
Posts: 261
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2000 6:36 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:29 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 3):
Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 2):
Sweet for end of LY's monopoly on the route, bitter for it being Israir - a terrible company which I will never fly.

Exactly.

Wow, you guys just got me really excited for my return flight to the US on Tuesday, ending my 5 months here in Israel.
I was going to ask what I should expect from the airline (although not expecting much since my ticket was $389 one way)...now I'm just considering a bottle of arak and some sleeping pills.

Then again, if people have some insight into the TLV-JFK route I'd love to hear...
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:38 am

With all respect, give Israir a chance! Sabina Biran (Israir CEO) isn't stupid, she knows the business as well as Mr. Romano (I can't recall if he's doctor or professor).

This would mean El Al would actually start to listen to customers complaints and improve their service, because up until now, their major advantage on the TLV-JFK route was the direct flights, not the service. Nobody still knows what fleet is Israir planing to build, what are their prices going to be, and regarding the FF, Israir can build an even better program than El Al's if they really want to.
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:50 am

Keep in mind that one of El Al's main attractions (if you can call it that) has been its security - no El Al plane has been hijacked since 1968. Many Israelis fly it simply for that reason.

However, with both CO and DL flying to TLV from the United States, there is more competition for Americans (of all persuasions) to choose from. Perhaps El Al will make changes, but remember it has desperately wanted to compete by flying on Saturdays, but hard-liners in the Israeli legislature have prevented that.

I hope it is not hamstrung by having competition introduced by limited by religious restrictions. Every airline needs the opportunity to be competitive and improve.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
shlomoz
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 9:36 pm

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:56 am

LY is a privately owned airline and can fly on Shabbat if it wants to . . . but it won't. That's because they will be throwing away their hegemony on the NYC route (which is their most profitable) wherein on any given flight on that route, roughly 50% of pax, if not more, are Orthodox Jews. Most such people would sooner fly CO or go through Europe than patronize a Jewish owned airline that violates the religious edicts of Shabbat. No politics, no religious coercion - just market dictates. Nobody is going to stop LY from flying on Shabbat. Market share and business sense will.
 
semsem
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:06 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:20 am

El Al have better pilots who know their way around the JFK tarmacs. That really helps a lot.
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:03 am

Quoting Semsem (Reply 9):
El Al have better pilots who know their way around the JFK tarmacs. That really helps a lot.

Don't be Naive, the fact that you didn't hear about all sorts of accidents or nearly accidents isn't because they didn't happen.

Listens guys, I don't have anything against LY, on the contrary, I really like it. But I think it got used to the fact that it's the only Israeli carrier, and I only hope the competition would lead to a major improvement in their service.
 
semsem
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:06 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:07 pm

Well with Israir not only did a near accident happen but they got caught trying to lie and hide it.

As to the service on LY I find it great in economy; among the best in all aspects from the crew to the food to the entertainment to comfort. I have no clue about C or F as I have never had the privilege and I see no need for it.

[Edited 2006-02-24 06:16:02]
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:27 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
You could always fly CO

Sorry, I meant monopoly in the inner market, not on the route itself.

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 10):
accidents isn't because they didn't happen.

True. But were those accidents covered up by an airline management , in strict violation of ICAO rules, pilots' reports and common sense of a proper investigation? The proble with Israir is not their pilots (anybody can make a mistake and as you said - shit happened before on all kinds of airlines) but their management - whose attempt to cover up is inexcusable.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:28 pm

Quoting TimeForFlight (Reply 5):
now I'm just considering a bottle of arak and some sleeping pills.

Hehe  Smile make sure it "Brothers Hadad" one  Smile
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:34 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 12):
True. But were those accidents covered up by an airline management , in strict violation of ICAO rules, pilots' reports and common sense of a proper investigation?

Probably yes. The only thing is they didn't get caught. That's why we didn't hear about those accidents. I'm not paranoid, I'm just saying that statistically this things must have happened before, and the only reason we didn't hear about it is cover up.

Quoting Semsem (Reply 11):
As to the service on LY I find it great in economy; among the best in all aspects from the crew to the food to the entertainment to comfort.

I won't argue with you about their service. I think that service isn't only on flight; it's before and after flight too. In some aspects their service is good, I agree, but in some, it seems like LY is somewhere back in the 90's.
 
semsem
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:06 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:05 am

I have never had a bad experience with them and I am pretty fussy. My mother has been flying with them since 1950 and won't fly on any other airline, no matter what the fare. Never had a complaint. I don't understand why some folks complain. Of course here again I am talking about economy. I would not be surprised that they are not so competitive though in C and F.
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:15 am

Israir is going daily on JFK-TLV this summer!.... They are currently 3 x per week!
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting Shlomoz (Reply 8):
Most such people would sooner fly CO or go through Europe than patronize a Jewish owned airline that violates the religious edicts of Shabbat

Drama.... Drama.... Drama....

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 10):
Don't be Naive, the fact that you didn't hear about all sorts of accidents or nearly accidents isn't because they didn't happen.

That is funny EL AL enjoyed an apartment building in Amsterdam!  wink 
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 14):
I'm just saying that statistically this things must have happened before

Tenerife rings a bell?
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting Semsem (Reply 15):
I have never had a bad experience with them and I am pretty fussy. My mother has been flying with them since 1950 and won't fly on any other airline, no matter what the fare. Never had a complaint. I don't understand why some folks complain. Of course here again I am talking about economy. I would not be surprised that they are not so competitive though in C and F.

That's like saying "I'm going everyday to work on the same route for years and it's pretty good", whilst there is twice as fast road. It's not that their service is bad, but until you won't try other carriers you can't understand the improvement LY needs. And again when I'm talking about service, i'm not just talking about in-flight service.
And regarding C and F, why can't they be competitive? LY is a small company and hence making a competitive service isn't that difficult....
 
semsem
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:06 am

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:43 am

I have flown on other airlines and I find LY among the best. It's my mother who refuses to fly on any other carrier.
As to the awful crash of the cargo plane in Amsterdam it was not El Al's fault but Boeing. The constellation crash in Bulgaria in 1955 when the Connie from Vienna to Tel Aviv was shot down by a Mig was the fault of the pilot who flew into Bulgarian territory in error.
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting Semsem (Reply 20):
I have flown on other airlines and I find LY among the best. It's my mother who refuses to fly on any other carrier.
As to the awful crash of the cargo plane in Amsterdam it was not El Al's fault but Boeing. The constellation crash in Bulgaria in 1955 when the Connie from Vienna to Tel Aviv was shot down by a Mig was the fault of the pilot who flew into Bulgarian territory in error.

Blame Game.... Blame Game.... Sometimes we must face up to it... Even the best of airlines, have had accidents! Such as the case with SQ!  wink 
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:38 am

Quoting Semsem (Reply 20):
I have flown on other airlines and I find LY among the best

I can give you tons of examples why LY service isn't one of the best, but this debate is useless and will never end, so let's agree to disagree.
I like LY and flew with them a lot (especially because for Israeli the best FF program is LY, but also because it's an Israeli company and it does feel "home away from home"), but I think they can do so much better, and that's a shame they "neglect" their passengers....
 
Jetset25j
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:00 pm

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:13 pm

LY leaves a bit (but lets not go overboard) to be desired when compared to the service and fares of other airlines BUT like so many I think I have had LY ingrained into me from day one of the almost annual Israel run!

I've never used Israir on anything outside of a TLV-ETH flight, and have a (mis)conception that for routes further afield it would be just like a charter op or something.

Has Israir got (or ever had) any serious plans about expansion into the BKK route, owing to the number of more back packers etc on these flights?

Adrian.
Air New Zealand-Airline of the world's greatest travellers.
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:40 pm

Quoting Jetset25j (Reply 23):
like so many I think I have had LY ingrained into me from day one of the almost annual Israel run!

Same Here

Quoting Jetset25j (Reply 23):
Has Israir got (or ever had) any serious plans about expansion into the BKK route, owing to the number of more back packers etc on these flights?

There's definitely plenty of business in this route. LY has sometimes 5 weekly wide-bodies. It depends on the amount of money Israir has to expand their fleet. I guess it's just a matter of time...
 
El Al 001
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:04 am

Lets not forget few things here:

1. Sabina Biran was the Tower Air manager in Israel, she has a lot of experience on the NYC-TLV route, lot of experience and lots of bad memories.

2. While I think that LY was right going to court, I think they should've sued the government instaed of trying to prevent from ISR to fly to NYC.
Preventing from Israir flying to NYC wouldve made many many Israelis mad on LY...

3. LY is not a monopoly.
Reading so in the Israeli newspapers is bothering, but reading it from a.netters is dissapointing.
If one wants to fly between TLV and NYC he can do that with LY, DL, CO, ISR (charter at the momnet) and with dozens of other airlines via EU.

Mike
 
amirs
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:47 am

I agree with Semsem.
Ly today is on track to becoming one of the best airlines around.
They are upgrading their Seats in Business all the time. They plan on ugrading the seats in Eco, Plat and first this coming year.
They just an amazing breakfast on flights out of TLV.
They will have the high end coffee shop "ARCAFFE" make coffee and sandwiches for flights.
The Israeli cable company "HOT" will be incharge of the Inflight Ent.
and they have amazing crew, especially in First and Business.

I just hope they dont cut back and go all the way with their plans.
 
LY777
Posts: 2265
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:18 am

El Al is a great airline.I only flew in economy and their product is better than AF.
Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
 
semsem
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:06 am

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:17 am

Malpensa what do you mean by "the blame game?" Read all the reports. The 747 Cargo plane in Amsterdam crashed because of a technical error made by Boeing, which also caused a Taiwanese cargo 747 plane to crash for the same reason.
I admitted that the Connie crash in 1955 was the fault of the pilots who in error flew over Bulgaria who shot down the plane.
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:35 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 26):
agree with Semsem.
Ly today is on track to becoming one of the best airlines around.
They are upgrading their Seats in Business all the time. They plan on ugrading the seats in Eco, Plat and first this coming year.
They just an amazing breakfast on flights out of TLV.
They will have the high end coffee shop "ARCAFFE" make coffee and sandwiches for flights.
The Israeli cable company "HOT" will be incharge of the Inflight Ent.
and they have amazing crew, especially in First and Business.

Very good. Too bad that all these things are "planned" whereas with other carriers they exist for a long time now...
When you are such a small company like LY is, it's much easier for you to lead, not follow. LY is doing all those changes because other carriers have done them years ago!
I only hope that this changes won't stop and that they will become number one in service.
And one more remark, in case someone from LY is reading this. A flight isn't a scout's meeting. There are more appropriate ways to collect garbage from the cabin, rather then the f/a walking down the aisle with a bag and passengers throw garbage into it.
 
amirs
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:19 pm

Israir just closed a deal on leasing a 763ER in London.
They will start to offer 6 x weekly to NYC from June 1.
I knew they wouldn't find a 777 or go for a A340.
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 30):
I knew they wouldn't find a 777 or go for a A340.

Why not? BTW, who's doing their maintenance for boeings in TLV (A-D)?
 
amirs
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 31):
Why not?

Because I didnt think they would be agressive enough to find a 772 to lease and leasing an A340 or A330 would be too much of a "hassle." They are currently a Boeing operation (not including their ATR's).
I would like to see them order a new and modern a/c for the future.



Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 31):
who's doing their maintenance for boeings in TLV (A-D)?

ironic - El AL
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

RE: Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC

Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:22 pm

Well, if LY is doing their main. it makes sense they wouldn't go with airbus

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