United737522
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NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:19 pm

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/busin...ml&storylist=mibusiness&thispage=1

Quote:
Northwest intends to replace its DC-9s, which are more than 30 years old, with Bombardier or Embraer regional jets.

Sorry if this is old news, but a carrier with a fleet of CRJs really doesn't go well with me. You can't really tell me anyone enjoys them no matter how cheap their ticket is. The only other airline to operate a major fleet of RJs was Indy Air, and we all know how that turned out.
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Oykie
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:23 pm

I hope they work it out with the pilots as the article suggest, and that they are able to fly for the mainline carrier.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
ejmmsu
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:23 pm

I believe this article is a little over-simplistic. The common wisdom is that NW will use the Embraer E-Jets which have similar capacity to the DC-9's. These are being broadly defined as RJ's in this article. However, the economics and comfort of the E-Jets are head over heals better than the smaller RJ's.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
deltagator
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:29 pm

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Northwest_Airlines

I know this info may be old but they have a sizeable fleet outside of the DC-9s.

A319 - 65
A320 - 73
A330 - 18
B747 - 34
B757 - 62

I would hazzard a guess that the DC-9s that are replaced with RJs will be on smaller routes that couldn't support these bigger planes. If they pick a decent RJ like the EMB-170/190 (I know...it's debatable if it really is a RJ.) I believe those planes would be a nice fit. I hate the Jungle/Barbie Jets as much as the next guy but not all routes can support a bigger plane.

Since they own the DC-9s as has been said previously those planes will be around for quite some time. Don't expect them to disappear anytime soon.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
AirlineAV8tr
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:37 pm

I mentioned this in a related topic earlier, but it's going to be very interesting to see the pay scale for these new jets. If NWA pays them the industry standard for RJ pilots, you'll see another pilot uproar. If they pay them similar to what they made on the DC-9, you'll see an uproar amongst RJ pilots! Current average for an RJ 5th year FO, is between $30-$40 an hour. The current NWA payscale for a DC-9 5th-6th year FO on the DC-9 is $75!
If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
 
JonnyGT
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:46 pm

Oh brother, here we go again.

Pick a date for NW to replace the DC-9s. Now push it back at least 10 years. Now we are talking.  Smile
 
centrair
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:13 pm

I thought I read someplace that the RJs will be for routes where an A319/20 or DC9 are not viable. NW flies to a lot of small places with frequency but is starting to but up with new commers like Allegiant. They are starting to give alternatives to NW in traditionally NW territory like Appleton and Fargo.

Some stations like my hometown airport of CWA has 4 flights a day to MSP and 4 to DTW. These planes are packed every day. When I was young Republic flew there with DC9s that filled up nicely.

NW needs something and the C-series won't come at all and would have been too late anyway. The RRJ would fit but again too late. NW needs something NOW.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
CRJ900
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:48 pm

Quoting United737522 (Thread starter):
Sorry if this is old news, but a carrier with a fleet of CRJs really doesn't go well with me. You can't really tell me anyone enjoys them no matter how cheap their ticket is. The only other airline to operate a major fleet of RJs was Indy Air, and we all know how that turned out.

We shouldn't dismiss the CRJs too quickly... BBD appears to have woken up to face the threat from Embraer. The CRJ705, -900 and -900X might be tempting to NW, I'm sure NW is one of the key airlines that BBD is talking to, according to a FI online-article some weeks ago. The E-jets are in very high demand with delivery slots being fully(?) booked out for several years while BBD had spare capacity and perhaps is willing to offer some good deals...?

If the CRJ705, -900 and -900X offer good economics (which apparently they do), MX-commonality with Pinnacle's CRJ200s and clever use of cabin amenities to enhance the feeling of space (light colours and fabrics, 32-33-34 inches of seat pitch and even PTVs) they could be a good replacement for DC9s on routes with reduced demand (75-85 seats per flight) while the A319 covers the other DC9-routes with higher demand (100-126 seats)...

My $0.02 on a Friday  Smile
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planemaker
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 7):
BBD appears to have woken up to face the threat from Embraer.

But they can't do anything about it.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 7):
BBD had spare capacity and perhaps is willing to offer some good deals...?

BBD would have trouble offering some "good deals" that are still profitable for them... the appreaciation of the Canadian dollar vs the USD is already having a large impact on profits.

But much more important than the "good deals" is financing the "good deals." That is where BBD is in real trouble. They won't be able to offer Canadian government financing.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
access-air
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:26 am

Im sorry but none of the so called Regional jets even the bigger Embraer planes can compare to a FULL SIZED airliner....
Boeing really screwed the pooch when they decided to close down the B717-200 line. If Boeing had not been thinking inside their shoes they could have sold a mess of them to Northwest as a DC9 replacements.
Is it me or are airplanes getting smaller on the inside whilst the general population get bigger?

I was looking at a picture I shot of a CRJ that I flew on back in 1999 and there were some guys standing next to it loading bags... That plane is dinky...Compare it to Convair 580 or an F27 or one of the older Turboprop airliners it tries to replace and its a toy....Maybe its me but thats what it seems like!!!

Access-Air
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planemaker
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 9):
Im sorry but none of the so called Regional jets even the bigger Embraer planes can compare to a FULL SIZED airliner....

In what ways are a 737 or A320 more comfortable than an E-jet???
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
flydreamliner
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:45 am

These RJs are no surprise. 15 years ago, the NW domestic fleet was basically 2 jets, the 727-200 and DC-9 (ok, and they flew like MSP-DTW, or MSP-LAX on the DC-10). They replaced 727-200 with the 757 and A320, they replaced some of the DC-9 routes with A319s, others, which the DC-9 is still on, will be replaced with CRJ2 and CRJ7's, as well as Embraer E-Jets. The CRJ is an abomination, and I refuse to ride on one unless I am absolutely forced to. I hate them .... with a passion. My understanding is that the E-Jets aren't bad, but i highly doubt they're as roomy, open, and comfortable as the old DC-9s. It is too bad Boeing shut down the 717 line, I would much rather ride a 717 than an E-Jet, and WAY more than a CRJ. That said, NW could also buy A318s, since they've already got a nice fleet of 320s and 319s, but they're going a different direction. Cheaper to pay pilots on a E-Jet, I guess. Anyhow, I avoid flying NW, and I live in their hub.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
Claude
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:47 am

hello everyones... why not 318's?? same family as their 319's...
Airbus didn't sell a lot of them so maybe they could deal for a good price.
your opinion?  Smile
 
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ERJ170
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:52 am

What's the chance that Embraer will enter into the 105-120 seat Market? Perhaps with a 2800-3000 nm range that could do coast-to-coast? Any at all?
Aiming High and going far..
 
ejmmsu
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting Claude (Reply 12):
hello everyones... why not 318's?? same family as their 319's...

The Economics of the E-190/195 is better than the A318 with similar seating capacity.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
flydreamliner
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:53 am

They can't get away with paying A318 pilots regional jet wages.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
DAYflyer
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:56 am

The DC-9 will be replaced in 2025.
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AR1300
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting United737522 (Thread starter):
but a carrier with a fleet of CRJs really doesn't go well with me.

 checkmark 
Independence Air comes to mind.

Mike
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TinkerBelle
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
They can't get away with paying A318 pilots regional jet wages.

What would be the option if you were a pilot? If you don't take it, there is 1000 of us waiting in line to take your Regional jet pay. Heck, I'll give up my good paying job to become an RJ pilot any day because I know I gotta start somewhere. Unfortunate for the current A318 pilots but it's the reality.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
ORDagent
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 9):
Im sorry but none of the so called Regional jets even the bigger Embraer planes can compare to a FULL SIZED airliner..

I personally find the E-170 much more comfortable than the 737 series and for my clients NO MIDDLE SEAT! Most airlines are marketing them as mainline equipment with first class cabins.

Besides this may be a non issue if the pilots strike and NW collapses.
 
L1329II
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 19):
Most airlines are marketing them as mainline equipment with first class cabins.

Really? Who other than Jazz has a dual cabin setup on the 700 & 900's?
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
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ERJ170
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting L1329II (Reply 20):
Who other than Jazz has a dual cabin setup on the 700 & 900's?

United Express
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ac7e7
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 2):
However, the economics and comfort of the E-Jets are head over heals better than the smaller RJ's.

E-Jets offer better comfort, however BBD jets over better economics.

Considering Northwest's crappy in-flight service, they'll probably go with the economics rather than comfort.
 
airlinelover
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 22):
Considering Northwest's crappy in-flight service, they'll probably go with the economics rather than comfort.

Oh wow.. a new KAHALA777..

It's not JUST Northwest who has less then sterling service. Look at most domestic carriers..

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:02 am

Quoting United737522 (Thread starter):
The only other airline to operate a major fleet of RJs was Indy Air, and we all know how that turned out.

Indy's RJ fleet was T-I-N-Y,with what..60 RJ's..compared to the RJ fleets in service to the legacy carriers.

American Eagle has some 225+ RJ's in service.

Mesa has 181 RJ's.

Skywest has over 300 RJ's.

The make-up of the RJ fleet is probably beginning to change. The E170 and E190 aircraft are going to prove be much more desireable then the ERJ's and CRJ's currently in use.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
remcor
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 24):
The make-up of the RJ fleet is probably beginning to change. The E170 and E190 aircraft are going to prove be much more desireable then the ERJ's and CRJ's currently in use.

I hope so. Embraer hasn't landed a major new commercial airplane order for a while now. A large NW order would be fantastic.
 
ORDagent
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 24):
The make-up of the RJ fleet is probably beginning to change. The E170 and E190 aircraft are going to prove be much more desireable then the ERJ's and CRJ's currently in use.

The only issue is that the E jets are too big for many markets. The 135-145 series will still sell for many years. Remember loads shot up on markets that were changed from turbos to the Embraers. They are still much more comfortable than those awful CRJs (and yes I've flown all of them).
 
RiddlePilot215
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting United737522 (Thread starter):
Sorry if this is old news, but a carrier with a fleet of CRJs really doesn't go well with me. You can't really tell me anyone enjoys them no matter how cheap their ticket is. The only other airline to operate a major fleet of RJs was Indy Air, and we all know how that turned out.

From what I remember correctly, the RJ had HORRIBLE economics, therefore wouldn't ticket prices increase?


...and people say I'M crazy for still believing in turbos....
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SuseJ772
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10):
In what ways are a 737 or A320 more comfortable than an E-jet???

Ohh, you must be referring to the middle seat. You know, I always prefer flying in a row of three over a row of two, or one in the case of somernof the RJs (sarcasm).

Honestly, I know I must be crazy, but I love RJs. If they had the range and the same seat pitch & width, I would fly then intercontinental. I am a majorily claustrophobic individual (my blanket at night makes me claustrophobic), but I never got why people felt the RJs were so awful.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:49 am

Now that the issue of the NW pilots will fly the new birds, I see the Embrear options more likely then the crap hole CRJ!
 
CRJ900
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:36 am

I think you guys are far too rough on the CRJ, and had every other airliner been praised through the clouds for their wonderful comfort I would rest my case, but when many A.netters (in many other threads over the years) call the E-jets, 747, 777, A320 "cramped" as well, then I realise that many of you will NEVER be satisfied regardless of how wide and tall the cabins are...

And in regards to your beloved 717... production is being shut down this year after "disappointing sales", that's how great that airplane turned out to be... NW didn't want it, SAS didn't want it and AA got rid of the one ones they got from TWA...

Embrace diversity while you can, before too long all airplanes will have two underwing-mounted engines, no-frill service and be less exciting than watch paint dry...
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ctbarnes
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 30):
call the E-jets, 747, 777, A320 "cramped" as well, then I realise that many of you will NEVER be satisfied regardless of how wide and tall the cabins are...

The CRJ's ARE cramped. I'm 6'2 and claustrophobia sets in if i'm on the plane for more than an hour. It's the most uncomfortable plane I've ever traveled on. Economically it's a bad deicsion too because they're very expensive to operate.

As for the others, it is not the cabin it's the number of seats that get stuffed in them. Narrow seats, no legroom; if a german shepherd were crated to the same dimensions in the cargo hold the airline would be staring at a hefty fine!

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
sllevin
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:25 am

Maybe it's me, but the CRJ and ERJ both seem to have slightly narrower seats -- not to mention the very tiny overheads.

I haven't been on an EMB-170/190 series yet, but they appear to have mainline sizing.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:45 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 9):
Boeing really screwed the pooch when they decided to close down the B717-200 line. If Boeing had not been thinking inside their shoes they could have sold a mess of them to Northwest as a DC9 replacements.

Actually, it's NW that screwed the pooch by not ordering the 717 while it was a available, especially after they were such a large part of the design process with McDonnell Douglas. I would go so far as to say that it's Northwest's fault the 717 line ended after such a short life, they could have nearly doubled the production run by ordering DC-9 replacements.
 
deltamike172
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:46 am

Some say the solution to this RJ problem is to decrease frequency (airlines seem to have a fetish for flying everyone once an hour). I thought this might be a good idea, and would reduce delays, but alas, the airlines would simply pack everyone onto a 777 more crampt than any RJ every could be, and that wouldn't help anything.

The fact is, US airlines don't seem to care about service or comfort for anyone, including thier pilots. Get over it, the airlines are too greedy, and the public is too cheap for things to get better. Until pilots start turning down jobs becuase of low wages, and passengers stop buying cheap tickets, nothing will ever change. I guess that bodes well for the airliners.net forum.

-dm
 
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lightsaber
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:36 am

Quoting JonnyGT (Reply 5):
Oh brother, here we go again.

Pick a date for NW to replace the DC-9s. Now push it back at least 10 years. Now we are talking

 rotfl  I remember reading a.net prior to joining absolutely mistified at the facination with the DC-9.  Smile

Quoting Claude (Reply 12):
hello everyones... why not 318's?? same family as their 319's...

There is also aparently a gate spacing issue at DTW with the A318's. Someone from NW will have to comment more. But the A318 is always going to haul around more weight than the E190AR.

Using the airliners.net info (I know, often wrong)
A318: empty weight 84,600 lbm
E195 "basic operating" 59,744 lbm

~25,000 lbm (almost 12 metric tons) is just too big of a gap unless one needs the A318's range. The "rule of thumb" that 1kg added "non value added weight" reduces the value of an airframe $500 gives 12000*500=$6million USD. ouch! I really doubt an A318 will ever sell for $6mill less than an E195. While I like the babybus, the E190/195 have better economics as long as a *large* subfleet is purchased. (Obviously, with small orders or a series of small orders fleet comonality rules out.) NW is talking about 50+. Thus the economics of another fleet type favors the lighter/newer aircraft design over fleet comonality.

Quoting L1329II (Reply 20):
Really? Who other than Jazz has a dual cabin setup on the 700 & 900's?



Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 21):
United Express

Dang, you beat me to it! Although, I would argue UE is 3 class: Y, E+, J.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 24):
Indy's RJ fleet was T-I-N-Y,with what..60 RJ's..compared to the RJ fleets in service to the legacy carriers.

IIRC, they peaked at 85 and then shrank. Anyone have a link?

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 26):

The only issue is that the E jets are too big for many markets. The 135-145 series will still sell for many years.

I agree that the E-jets are too big for many markets. However, at $60+/bbl oil more of those markets will eventually get turboprops. Also, I happen to agree with Boyd that there are 800 to 1200 extra 50 seat RJ's on the market than the market can support. So the 145 line is going to have a tough time for the next few years. Long term, I expect Embraer to go forward with a 50 seater replacement. I really hope the PW800 GTF is selected.  bigthumbsup  Hey, I'm biased. I worked a little on a few paper concepts of this engine.  Wink The 50 seater market won't go away, its just going to be glutted for a while. When will it return? I don't know. In many ways, the E-jets might be the first big selling 100 seater since the DC-9.  duck 

Lightsaber
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ORFflyer
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:44 am

Quoting Deltamike172 (Reply 34):
The fact is, US airlines don't seem to care about service or comfort for anyone, including thier pilots. Get over it, the airlines are too greedy, and the public is too cheap for things to get better. Until pilots start turning down jobs becuase of low wages, and passengers stop buying cheap tickets, nothing will ever change. I guess that bodes well for the airliners.net forum.

Damn, I never thought I'd see common sense, and a perfectly spot-on comment in the civ-av forum.... well said!!  bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup 
 
TheFlyGuy2
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:50 am

Hey,

Anyone know when this replacement process will begin?

It sure will be sad to see NW let go of their DC-9's.
It sounds strange, but you can't have NW without the DC-9, the two are are like peas in a pod so to speak. They have been operating them for so long.
I will have to fly onone of their DC-9's before they are sent out to pasture.

Andy
 
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ODwyerPW
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:15 pm

In time, we'll see a 112 pax version of the 195 capable of BWI to LAX with 32" pitch for everyone and decent luggage carrying capability (ie, no appreciable payload restrictions). They'll get there. However, carrying that much fuel, it's better to load up a 737-800 with 149 pax. Transcon Point to Point for 100pax is not going to be attractive for carriers, even if the Ejet is capable.

If you look at existing DC9 routes with NW, the 195 doesn't need any additional range to fit nicely. Lots of 600-1000nm legs that should make the plane very economical to operate
learning never stops.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 18):
What would be the option if you were a pilot?

Here's the deal, The A318 is the same type rating as the 319 and 320, same pilots. If NW wanted to pay their 320 pilots the same as their RJ, they'd have EVEN MORE problems with the union. They're having a hard enough time with the DC-9s.

And yes, the CRJ is THAT bad. I'm 6'4", 210 lbs, and i've got a hard time walking when i get off one of those. I find the ERJs to be better even, but the E-jets look the most like a real plane. Even so, I'd take a DC-9 or 737 anyday over one.

The 717 was a really good aircraft, just not at the right time. That, and they needed smaller ones.

Quoting TheFlyGuy2 (Reply 37):
I will have to fly onone of their DC-9's before they are sent out to pasture.

They are an experience. They take off like a rocket, just don't sit aft of the wings ....... if you want to retain your hearing. It's one of my favorite passenger jets (well, I prefer the MD-80 myself)

I'm sure you'll see NW DC-9s in some level of service for another 10 years. After that, safe to say they're out to pasture. NW moves fast in their replacement drives, like, from the first A330 to the last DC-10 flight, maybe.... 5 year span.

Longer range flights they'll leave to A319s, shorter stuff they've left to the DC-9 will go to the E-Jets.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
FlyMIX
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:54 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 38):



Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 38):
In time, we'll see a 112 pax version of the 195 capable of BWI to LAX with 32" pitch for everyone and decent luggage carrying capability (ie, no appreciable payload restrictions). They'll get there. However, carrying that much fuel, it's better to load up a 737-800 with 149 pax. Transcon Point to Point for 100pax is not going to be attractive for carriers, even if the Ejet is capable.

If you look at existing DC9 routes with NW, the 195 doesn't need any additional range to fit nicely. Lots of 600-1000nm legs that should make the plane very economical to operate

So now a "regional jet" can do all that! It is only regional if you consider North America as a region. If Embraer comes out with a 500 seater to compete with the A380, I wonder if it will also be a "regional jet". The airlines just call it regional so that they can pay less!
 
birdbrainz
Posts: 423
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 6:57 am

RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:56 pm

I've noticed something very funny about the RJ's (ERJ-145 and CRJs). When I think about them, they always seem like little sardine cans, and I dread my next trip on them.

And yet, when I actually fly on them, I enjoy them and think to myself, "hey why was I so down on these things? They're fine." This is especially true of the newer CRJ-700s. In fact, my last trip from ORD-Burlington, VT was about 2 hrs, and was so nice, I could have been happy for at least another 90 mins. Granted, I'm about 5'10", but are they really so bad?

I especially like the way checked baggage is handled on them.

Anyone else have the same observations?

-PK
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
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ODwyerPW
Posts: 967
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RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:00 pm

flymix,
I don't consider the E-Jets as regional. To me, they are mainline, albiet shorthaul mainline, not longhaul mainline.
learning never stops.
 
FlyMIX
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:42 am

RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:17 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 42):
flymix,
I don't consider the E-Jets as regional. To me, they are mainline, albiet shorthaul mainline, not longhaul mainline

Sorry ODPW! I meant just in general, and did not mean to imply you personally did! I agree with you...they are mainline aircraft like a DC9, A319 or 737, even if they are not made by A or B. The airlines sure like to call them "regional"...it lets them pay less across the board.

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 41):
And yet, when I actually fly on them, I enjoy them and think to myself, "hey why was I so down on these things? They're fine." This is especially true of the newer CRJ-700s. In fact, my last trip from ORD-Burlington, VT was about 2 hrs, and was so nice, I could have been happy for at least another 90 mins. Granted, I'm about 5'10", but are they really so bad?

I especially like the way checked baggage is handled on them.

Anyone else have the same observations?

I agree. If given a choice between flying in the middle of three seats on a A320 or 737, or flying on an ERJ with a window or aisle seat, I will take the ERJ. I also like the way valet bags are handled...speeds up boarding by about 10x! Of course, if I am flying business or 1st class it is a different story.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:30 pm

Quoting Deltamike172 (Reply 34):
the airlines are too greedy

Right, look at all the money they are raking in. Economics unfortunately dont help the future of the airline industry. There are so many choices and so many things that we are now able to do and buy that price becomes a driving factor for more and more people. The last time I went to LA we spent about $700 dollars on toys, clothes, etc. not including food and lodging. IMHO, most people spend less on certain things to spend more on others, so now the airlines are literally turning into the Greyhounds of the sky.

If NW does purchase RJs to replace DC-9s, half the people on this forum wouldnt know what to talk about, myself included.

 Smile
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:08 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 33):
Actually, it's NW that screwed the pooch by not ordering the 717 while it was a available

The 717 has lousy economics. That's why NW (or virtually anyone else that wasn't in financial circumstances) didn't buy it.

Boeing, of course, lost money on every 717 made as well. End to end, it wasn't a good deal -- it was simply too much 1960's technology.

Steve
 
remcor
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:25 am

RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 39):
Here's the deal, The A318 is the same type rating as the 319 and 320, same pilots. If NW wanted to pay their 320 pilots the same as their RJ, they'd have EVEN MORE problems with the union. They're having a hard enough time with the DC-9s.

Agreed, however even without the union problems B6 went with the E190 over the A318 despite commonality with their A320s. The operating economics of shrunk jets like the A318 just isn't as attractive as the E-jets for these routes.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:39 pm

<<but a carrier with a fleet of CRJs really doesn't go well with me.>>>

<< checkmark
Independence Air comes to mind.>>>

Don't forget Comair. DAL does not have a buyer for a company whose flying is slowly being replaced and fleets being retired.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:16 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 33):
Actually, it's NW that screwed the pooch by not ordering the 717 while it was a available, especially after they were such a large part of the design process with McDonnell Douglas. I would go so far as to say that it's Northwest's fault the 717 line ended after such a short life, they could have nearly doubled the production run by ordering DC-9 replacements.

NW and DAL are screwed even more, both carriers 100 seat aircraft are old and inefficient thus making it impossible to compete with LCC. Their decision to buy bigger when the LCC were filling the 100 seat gap will cost them. I think DAL and NWA will be out of the smaller markets if they return. NWA stands a much great probablility of survival with it's Pacific network.

They can only replace those DC9 by farming the flying to someone else, neither DAL nor NWA have the cash for fleet replacement. Creditor's will only sell them aircraft in exchange for equity or board seats all based upon court approval.
 
NLINK
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:20 pm

RE: NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs

Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:43 pm

There was talk not long ago that Airbus is still trying to get in there 318 into NW fleet. We heard they were offering a lite version of the plane with a much lower MTOW, different landing gear, etc. Supposedly it wll be offered to NW with the PW6000, as airbus and PW will provide financing for the aircraft, it will be desiginated as a different version of the 318 to get the landing fees cheaper. This is just a idea we have heard that was thrown on the table. With that idea was the CRJ-705 being pitched on the table with Bombardier using the open orders to switch to that airplane and taking around 20 crj-440 in exchange.

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