hardiwv
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IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:31 pm

Starting 26 March 2006 IB will increase MAD-GRU flights from daily to 10 weekly flights A340-300/A340-600. The 3 additional frequencies will operate on Wed, Sat and Sun.

IB new schedules for GRU:

MAD-GRU:

--3--67 IB6825 MAD.03:00PM - GRU.06:35PM A343/346
1234567 IB6821 MAD.00:30AM - GRU.05:05AM A343/A346

GRU-MAD :

--3--67 IB6820 GRU.08:15PM - MAD.11:10AM A343/A346
1234567 IB6824 GRU.03:20PM - MAD.06:15AM A332/A346

IB also operates daily MAD-GIG A343/A346. Total IB frequencies MAD-Brazil will therefore increase to 17 weekly flights.

IB's increase in flights to GRU comes in the wake of AF increased capacity to GRU from 10 weekly flights 12 weekly flights.

Here are the current operational frequencies Spain-Brazil:

IB MAD-GRU 10 weekly A343/346
IB MAD-GIG 7 weekly A343/346
RG MAD-GRU 7 weekly B763 - codeshare JK
PU MAD-GIG 3 weekly B763 - codeshare RG (continue onwards to MVD)
UX MAD-SSA 4 weekly B763
NM MAD-FOR 2 weekly A333 (continue onwards to EZE)
NM BCN-FOR 1 weekly A333 (continue onwards to SCL) Starting June/06

TOTAL WEEKLY FLIGHTS SPAIN-BRAZIL = 34 weekly flights

Rgs,
 
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:51 pm

Might we be seeing an IB A380 on the MAD-GRU route sooner or later?
 
juventus
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:03 pm

A few airlines seem to be increasing services to Brazil in general. Great news for the Brazilian passengers, not so great for Varig.

Saludos desde Puerto Vallarta, MX
 
hardiwv
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Juventus (Reply 2):
Great news for the Brazilian passengers, not so great for Varig.

Not only Varig, but TAM should worry as well.

In general, it is great news to see the expansion, although largely centred in GRU. It is high time for the Brazilian Government to carry out a massive expansion in GRU. The subway link GRU-downtown is also long overdue.

It seems indeed that LH is rowing against the flow, while all major airlines are upgrading GRU LH, decided to cut one of its two daily flights. I'm sure LH will pay a very high price for this decision.

Rgs,
 
Brasuca
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 3):
It seems indeed that LH is rowing against the flow, while all major airlines are upgrading GRU LH

Very true!!

Despite IB operates with high loads in flights to GRU and GIG, wouldn't it have anything to do with British Airways' impossibility in increasing their frequencies?
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
LipeGIG
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:47 am

Seems that Airlines are trying to use more and more the GRU slots around 8-9 PM. Interesting the day light MAD-GRU (was MAD-GIG)

Infraero does not allow Air Madrid to fly to GIG and now allows IB to fly more to GRU... seems that the government does not like Rio very much.

Felipe
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Brasuca
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
Infraero does not allow Air Madrid to fly to GIG and now allows IB to fly more to GRU... seems that the government does not like Rio very much.

Felipe, como ta?  Smile
Spanish carriers were flying regularly to Brazil (GIG), but registered as charter and there were no more frequencies in the bilateral — which, I believe, has just been reviewed.
Brazilian government cannot refuse any airline request for flights if the it satisfies the air Treaty's criteria. This is an agreement between two countries and Brazil would be then disregarding it (ilegally) just by saying that the airline is not eligible for some reason out of such agreement, i.e. "we don't like Rio that much".
By the way, I think INFRAERO doesn't hold any authority to allow / refuse flights requests.
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airbazar
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 3):
It seems indeed that LH is rowing against the flow, while all major airlines are upgrading GRU LH, decided to cut one of its two daily flights. I'm sure LH will pay a very high price for this decision.

They don't need it anymore since TAP's entry into Star. Germans are now the largest group of European passengers on TP's flights to Brazil, after the Portuguese.
 
Brasuca
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
They don't need it anymore since TAP's entry into Star. Germans are now the largest group of European passengers on TP's flights to Brazil, after the Portuguese.

Ach Gott!
"Greeeat" strategy of LH, no?  Yeah sure
Shame on them! Some pax migrate to TAP but the other majority to AF/KL, IB and BA!
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
MD11junkie
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:06 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
They don't need it anymore since TAP's entry into Star. Germans are now the largest group of European passengers on TP's flights to Brazil, after the Portuguese.

Really ---  Yeah sure Latin America is not just only Brazil. LH does not have a clue of what to do with Latin America. TAP's presence in Brazil has always been strong, but that's just because of the market (and ties) that there's between Portugal and Brazil. Really, take a look at it, LH lost all of its business travelers to Air France because it axed the FRA-EZE-SCL to make it FRA-GRU-EZE/SCL. They really don't have a clue of what to do. And now, this is a lost market for them. Air France has won every inch of their business flyers. Lufthansa is the only one axing operations at GRU - but this is because of the poor performance of its routes. Adding the 2nd GRU daily, may have been good for Brazil, but it certainly was devastating for their Chilean and Argentine operations. Now, they are pulling out of SCL and codesharing with LX/SR on that leg.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
Infraero does not allow Air Madrid to fly to GIG and now allows IB to fly more to GRU... seems that the government does not like Rio very much.

Hola Felipe!

Are you sure this deal is with GIG and not with Air Madrid? Remember they have rejected Air Madrid from increasing more frequencies into Brazil.

I've heard this rumor over the last couple of days. . . is it true that the Federal Government is TRULY considering in giving out 8th freedom rights to NON Brazilian companies? I mean, that's outrageous, and confirms the clear anti-RG position this administration has.

I'm appalled by it.

Cheers! wave 
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LipeGIG
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 6):
Felipe, como ta?
Spanish carriers were flying regularly to Brazil (GIG), but registered as charter and there were no more frequencies in the bilateral — which, I believe, has just been reviewed.

Ola Brasuca, estou bem e em Miami tirando uns dias pra "refill my batteries"

Brasuca, the question is that, Air Madrid can fly to GIG, but without rights for Buenos Aires and/or Santiago, buttttttttt ... if Air Madrid flies to FOR, the government can "grant" rights for EZE and SCL. Also Infraero creates a lot of problems for new airlines (info from an employee of Infraero) to start ops at Rio/São Paulo nowadays.

Our government is trying to drive all new flights out of Rio/São Paulo !

Do you know that RG receive some incentives to fly GIG-GRU-IGU-ASU instead of GRU-ASU ? And what to say about GRU-CWB-VVI instead of GRU-VVI ? Yes, they will change both routes effective march 06!

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 9):
Are you sure this deal is with GIG and not with Air Madrid? Remember they have rejected Air Madrid from increasing more frequencies into Brazil.

Hi Gaston !

I'm sure, they confirm this in an interview this week at O GLOBO newspaper (Rio). They tried to fly again to Rio but if they decide in favor of GIG, no Freedom rights for EZE or SCL will be granted to them.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 9):
I've heard this rumor over the last couple of days. . . is it true that the Federal Government is TRULY considering in giving out 8th freedom rights to NON Brazilian companies? I mean, that's outrageous, and confirms the clear anti-RG position this administration has.

It was the first mistake of the brand new ANAC (National Agency for Civil Aviation) and its president. He made a speech trying to sell the idea of give 8th Freedom Rights. But he was forced by Varig, Tam, Gol, BRA, Ocean Air, Civil society, Infraero, and some congressmans, and confirmed two or three days ago that it will not happen!
Very CRAZY idea, while i personally love competition, it's clear that foreigners will try to take part on the best routes like Rio-São Paulo.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:01 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
They don't need it anymore since TAP's entry into Star. Germans are now the largest group of European passengers on TP's flights to Brazil, after the Portuguese.

Although LH has to build on synergies with TP's 40 weekly flights to Brazil, it simply cannot substitute for LH flights and FRA hub connections. Take into accunt that a lot of LH pax in Brazil connect to many destinations TP does not serve, especially in Asia.

It was a big mistake LH decision to cut capacity in GRU. In fact, LH has been doing a lot of mistakes in the region: GRU, GIG, EZE, SCL, CCS. It will pay a heavy price for this and it will be difficult to come back.

LH already stated that the second daily flight FRA-GRU will axed only for 8 months, and resumed by the end of 2006. This is very poor marketing strategy. Many pax will simply switch to AF/KL, BA, IB, etc, while also growing further their operations in GRU. Detail: LH will cut the second daily flight to GRU exactly during the World Cup.

Yet I cannot understand how an airline such as LH does not fly EZE nonstop. LH has taken many wrong decisions in the region.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 9):
Really, take a look at it, LH lost all of its business travelers to Air France because it axed the FRA-EZE-SCL to make it FRA-GRU-EZE/SCL. They really don't have a clue of what to do.

Correct. And now LH will fly SCL with LX-operated aircraft, confusing pax and showing how poor is their marketing.

Rgs,
 
cedars747
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:12 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 9):
Really --- Latin America is not just only Brazil

That`s true.What about Iberia A380 MAD-EZE?
Saludos desde Noruega
Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
rootsair
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 12):

That`s true.What about Iberia A380 MAD-EZE?

that would be marvelous and I'm sure it would get filed!
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
cedars747
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 13):
that would be marvelous and I'm sure it would get filed!

You can send your amazing Roots Air A380 to several destinations in south America.
Saludos desde Noruega
Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
IBERIA747
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 12):
What about Iberia A380 MAD-EZE?

Nothing about it...it won't happen.

IB has said loud and clear that the A380 is too big for them. Yes, sometimes they could use an aircraft "slightly bigger" than the A346 on certain routes in certain days, but nothing more than that. Destinations such as EZE or MEX are doing fine with 2 daily A346s. In 10 years...who knows, but currently the A380 is not part of Iberia's plans and it would not make sense at all to get a couple of them just for 2 destinations, which btw on low season can show LOW load factors from time to time.

The 747-8 would fit better, but I don't think it will hapen either.
¡¡VIVA ESPAÑA!!
 
cedars747
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 15):
Nothing about it...it won't happen.

"Que lastima".So no A380 to south America?
Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
MD11junkie
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 16):
"Que lastima".So no A380 to south America?

No A380 for IB, that's what Alfonso meant.  Smile

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 15):
The 747-8 would fit better, but I don't think it will hapen either.

Hola Alfonso!
Is there any there any "hint" from IB's BoD that they will stick or get the new A340-600E or switch to a plane like the A350?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
It was the first mistake of the brand new ANAC (National Agency for Civil Aviation) and its president. He made a speech trying to sell the idea of give 8th Freedom Rights. But he was forced by Varig, Tam, Gol, BRA, Ocean Air, Civil society, Infraero, and some congressmans, and confirmed two or three days ago that it will not happen!
Very CRAZY idea, while i personally love competition, it's clear that foreigners will try to take part on the best routes like Rio-São Paulo.

Hey Lipe!

Thank you very much for the information!

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
EddieDude
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 15):
Destinations such as EZE or MEX are doing fine with 2 daily A346s.

MEX does not even get that many seats. I believe IB flies 11x weekly to MEX using mostly A343's with some A346's thrown into the mix. And with AM getting 772ER's with 34 in. pitch and PTV's in Y, IB will be hard-pressed to improve its service before adding more capacity.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
MD11junkie
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
MEX does not even get that many seats. I believe IB flies 11x weekly to MEX using mostly A343's with some A346's thrown into the mix. And with AM getting 772ER's with 34 in. pitch and PTV's in Y, IB will be hard-pressed to improve its service before adding more capacity.

Eddie,

I doubt IB will receive any pressure with these initial 772ERs. They pose no threat to IB, since IB is operating bigger planes and the 777s would only be able to go daily if you dedicate both to the route.

Still, it's an increase in capacity and a mixture between 772s and 762s would do fine with the route.

The real threat, I think, will begin as soon as AM starts getting more 772ERs, to be able to sustain a daily service with 772ERs. So, IB may start putting A340-600s now --- or just leave it like this, for the time being.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
EddieDude
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:47 am

You are absolutely right about that. I need to clarify my point because I did not mean pressure so much in the sense of demand-supply because as you say, AM will only get 2 frames initially, but rather pressure in the sense of quality and preference. IB could start to lose some pax to AM because of the better service and inflight experience.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
IBERIA747
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 17):
Hola Alfonso!
Is there any there any "hint" from IB's BoD that they will stick or get the new A340-600E or switch to a plane like the A350?

Hola colega.

Nope. Nothing has been said at the moment. IB is still waiting for 2 more A346s to be delivered this coming spring and the 18 A343s currently in service are still quite young to make the company's BoD think of an alternative.

This is the entire Iberia's A340-300/600 currently in service with each aircraft's delivery date:

REG.......MSN...TYPE......DELIVERY........NAME

EC-GGS...125 340-313 23/06/1996 Concha Espina
EC-GHX...134 340-313 01/11/1996 Rosalia De Castro
EC-GJT....145 340-313 01/11/1996 Rosa Chacel
EC-GLE....146 340-313 04/01/1997 Concepción Arenal
EC-GPB....193 340-313X 21/10/1997 Teresa de Ávila
EC-GQK....197 340-313X 10/11/1997 Emilia Pardo Bazán
EC-GUP....217 340-313X 26/05/1998 Agustina de Aragón
EC-GUQ...221 340-313X 25/06/1998 Beatriz Galindo
EC-HDQ...302 340-313X 01/12/1999 Sor Juana Inés De La Cruz
EC-HGU...318 340-313X 09/02/2000 María de Molina
EC-HGV...329 340-313X 11/04/2000 Maria Guerrero
EC-HGX...332 340-313X 13/04/2000 Maria Pita
EC-HQF...378 340-313X 16/01/2001 Maria de Zayas y Sotomayor
EC-HQH...387 340-313X 01/03/2001 Mariana de Silva
EC-HQN...414 340-313X 10/07/2001 Luisa Carvajal y Mendoza
EC-ICF....459 340-313X 28/02/2002 Maria Zambrano
EC-IDF....474 340-313X 21/05/2002 Mariana Pineda
EC-IIH.....483 340-313X 06/12/2002 Maria Bárbara de Braganza
EC-INO....431 340-642 24/06/2003 Gaudi
EC-IOB....440 340-642 31/08/2003 Julio Romero de Torres
EC-IQR....460 340-642 07/10/2003 Salvador Dali
EC-IZX....601 340-642 06/10/2004 Mariano Benlliure
EC-IZY....604 340-642 10/11/2004 Ignacio Zuloaga
EC-JBA....606 340-642 25/11/2004 Joaquín Rodrigo
EC-JCY....617 340-642 27/01/2005 Andres Segovia
EC-JCZ....619 340-642 25/02/2005 Vicente Aleixandre
EC-JFX....672 340-642 11/06/2005 Jacinto Benavente
EC-JLE....702 340-642 19/10/2005 Ramón y Cajal
EC-JNQ...727 340-642 10/02/2006 Antonio Machado

The next A340-600 to join the fleet will be registered as EC-JOH (msn 731) and it already made it's first flight on Feb 1st with the test registration F-WWCE. Aircraft's name will be Miguel De Unamuno.
¡¡VIVA ESPAÑA!!
 
IBERIA747
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
MEX does not even get that many seats. I believe IB flies 11x weekly to MEX using mostly A343's with some A346's thrown into the mix.

There are days when both flights to MEX are operated with the A346.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 15):
Destinations such as EZE or MEX are doing fine with 2 daily A346s

I stand corrected. What I meant was "Destinations such as MEX or EZE can do fine with 2 daily A346s".

Btw...my trip to GUA via MEX is still pending, and it seems that it will have to be delayed once again.  Sad
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EddieDude
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 22):
There are days when both flights to MEX are operated with the A346.

Very interesting! Not too long ago, the A343's were the rule and the -600's the exception. Good for IB! Thanks for the update. By the way, check your IM's.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
airbazar
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 9):
Really --- Latin America is not just only Brazil.

Not it's not but wasn't the topic of this thread about Brazil?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
Take into accunt that a lot of LH pax in Brazil connect to many destinations TP does not serve, especially in Asia.

LH is still one of the most profitable airlines in Europe. they must be doing something right. If they've been pulling back from S.America and Brazil it's because they think they can make more money somewhere else. In most cases if the choice is between S.America or some Asian destination, the choice is a no-brainer. More so if they can code-share on those flights with one of their Star Alliance partners. The money and future growth opportunity is in Asia.
 
cedars747
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 17):
No A380 for IB, that's what Alfonso meant.

But do you think that some South American airlines could order the A380?
Saludos desde Noruega
Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
EddieDude
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 25):
do you think that some South American airlines could order the A380?

I don't think so. I mean, I am sure you can fill a 550+ seats flight between GRU-LIS, GRU-CDG and EZE-MAD for example, but can that be sustained all year long? And the cost of the planes are just prohibitive for carriers like AR and RG.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
hardiwv
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 17):
No A380 for IB, that's what Alfonso meant.



Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 16):
"Que lastima".So no A380 to south America?

I would not be surprised if AF deploys the A380 to MEX, GRU or GIG.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 24):
If they've been pulling back from S.America and Brazil it's because they think they can make more money somewhere else. In most cases if the choice is between S.America or some Asian destination, the choice is a no-brainer.

Sorry, but the statement "Asia" is too loose the same way the statement "South America" "or "the Americas" is also very vague. One has to look at specific markets. E.g. Brazil and Mexico are too hugely important markets that airlines simply cannot afford to neglect. AF and other airlines are well aware of this.

One has to accept one fact: LH got it wrong in the region. If they are NOT making money in South America is because of their fault. They made a lot of mistakes, one after the other, and are paying a high price for it.

Just look AF/KL or IB or even TP. TP's profit is ignited by the Brazilian market that feeds its Europen network. BA is also doing great in GRU and EZE/GIG. AZ is another airline flying high and making a lot of money on GRU, EZE and CCS.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 24):
The money and future growth opportunity is in Asia.

See my statement above. What do you mean by Asia? China? Then the answer is yes. Or maybe you mean the Philippines (MNL), that can only afford ONE nonstop flight from Europe to MNL (i.e. KL)?

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 24):
they must be doing something right.

It is clear that LH got it WRONG in South America. Even in Brazil (i.e. GRU) which ALL airlines are making money and increasing flights, LH flights were UNprofitable in 2005. In sum, there is a problem with LH, and not with the region. No wonder LH change its whole management team in the regional HQ in Sao Paulo some weeks ago...

On the contrary, and as an irony, RG's two most profitable flights are GRU-FRA and GIG-FRA! Something is wrong with LH...for sure.

Another place LH made it completely wrong was EZE. LH strategy in EZE was a disaster to say the least.

Rgs,
 
cityairline
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 27):
Or maybe you mean the Philippines (MNL), that can only afford ONE nonstop flight from Europe to MNL (i.e. KL)?

You make it sound like China is the ONLY country in asia in which they can expand in, and the Philippines the ONLY country they cant expand to.

For example:
Japan wouldn't be such a bad place to start increase in...
Indonesia or Vietnam though, wouldn't be the best to begin with...

(And its not like MNL wouldn't be doing good nonstop to/from LHR at least a couple of times a week, not only because of the Filipino communitys but also turists that some people seem to foget actually visit the PH's)
I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
 
Avianca
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:59 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 3):
It seems indeed that LH is rowing against the flow, while all major airlines are upgrading GRU LH, decided to cut one of its two daily flights. I'm sure LH will pay a very high price for this decision.



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 7):
They don't need it anymore since TAP's entry into Star. Germans are now the largest group of European passengers on TP's flights to Brazil, after the Portuguese.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 11):
Although LH has to build on synergies with TP's 40 weekly flights to Brazil, it simply cannot substitute for LH flights and FRA hub connections. Take into accunt that a lot of LH pax in Brazil connect to many destinations TP does not serve, especially in Asia.

It was a big mistake LH decision to cut capacity in GRU. In fact, LH has been doing a lot of mistakes in the region: GRU, GIG, EZE, SCL, CCS. It will pay a heavy price for this and it will be difficult to come back.

I can imagine that the yields on the Europe-Gru routes are going down with the additional services...

I agree that LH did made some mistakes in the region, regarding CCS it is sad they will not go again daily this summer, but I can not see this as a big fault from them. I am sure when they will have enough additional long-haul aircrafts and all the plnd new frequencies to Asia are filled we will see LH again stronger in SouthAmerica/LatinAmerica with new flights to Brazil, Colombia, Mexico and upgrading the CCS service to daily again. Maybe also new flights to LIM.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting CityAirline (Reply 28):
For example:
Japan wouldn't be such a bad place to start increase in...
Indonesia or Vietnam though, wouldn't be the best to begin with...

You did not get my point. I stated that Asia is too general a region. It is the same as saying "The Americas" (which includes the US, and is a completely different market). Asia includes Japan, which is also a separate market in itself. China has its own dynamics, which is different from the Philippines (yes, only ONE nonstop flight from Europe, and this was only an example).

And yes, nowaydays when people talk about growing in Asia they do mostly refer to China (and India).

Quoting Avianca (Reply 29):
I agree that LH did made some mistakes in the region

I agree with you, but I would use stronger words. LH did a terrible job in South America, a series of mistakes and wrong management decisions. As I said, LH top management in GRU was all ousted. But certainly the place LH did the most serious mistake was in EZE. It will be almost impossible for LH to recover the lost market in such a key market as EZE.

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 30):
I agree with you, but I would use stronger words. LH did a terrible job in South America, a series of mistakes and wrong management decisions. As I said, LH top management in GRU was all ousted. But certainly the place LH did the most serious mistake was in EZE. It will be almost impossible for LH to recover the lost market in such a key market as EZE.

true at least in th past the EZE-SCL flights were really money-maker and always full in ECO,Business and First.

Sometimes they had even route business passenges via other SouthAmerican flights due overbooking.

they did also a big mistakes to leave BOG and LIM, AF and KL are the winner of the decisions of LH, also I do not understand why the left the second daily MEX flight... both flights were always full....

LH seems to do the same bad job than BA did in SouthAmerica, but I am sure we will see in some years again a powerfull LH in LatinAmerica.

regards
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
tope98
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 31):
they did also a big mistakes to leave BOG and LIM, AF and KL are the winner of the decisions of LH, also I do not understand why the left the second daily MEX flight... both flights were always full....

LH seems to do the same bad job than BA did in SouthAmerica, but I am sure we will see in some years again a powerfull LH in LatinAmerica.

i cant believe they will not get back daily to CCS this summer. its almost imposible to get a ticket during summer season with daily flights so this year will be i dont know more than imposible or really expensive. This was a really huge mistake. Or at least they should have upgrade to A346 or B744 instead of A343. But well another example of LH mistakes in this market.

Regarding BA there are a huge market between Venezuela and UK nowadays, but there were lots of mistakes by their administration here in CCS. But well maybe someday they will realize that they can make lots of profit here as well.
 
Avianca
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting Tope98 (Reply 32):
i cant believe they will not get back daily to CCS this summer. its almost imposible to get a ticket during summer season with daily flights so this year will be i dont know more than imposible or really expensive. This was a really huge mistake. Or at least they should have upgrade to A346 or B744 instead of A343. But well another example of LH mistakes in this market.

sadly true that they will not come back daily this summer. (its already confirmed)

yes a B744 wouldnt be bad on the route and I am sure they could fill it up without a problem with the local and transit traffic to colombia, peru and ecuador. also they could fill up without a problem the extra cargo capazity east-bound and west-bound.

regards
Avianca

[Edited 2006-02-26 23:26:19]
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
cityairline
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 30):
You did not get my point.

No, I think I did get your point. I just ment why you took the philippines as an example (I know, it was just an example), when you could have taken CGK which is a large city in asia to, with NO nonstop flights?

I didn't wanted to make a big thing out of this, just wondered

 Smile
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EddieDude
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 31):
I do not understand why the left the second daily MEX flight... both flights were always full....

I have gotten two answers to that question. One is that they are focusing more on other destinations where they can make fatter profits. The second one is that MX's codeshare with IB and AA has resulted in these two carriers stealing many MX passengers bound for Europe who, before the MX-AA-IB tie-up, used to fly with LH to Europe.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
hardiwv
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting Tope98 (Reply 32):
i cant believe they will not get back daily to CCS this summer

Same here. In the meanwhile, AF and IB are ripping the benefits. AZ and TP are also doing well in CCS.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 31):
they did also a big mistakes to leave BOG and LIM, AF and KL are the winner of the decisions of LH

Agree. AF/KL growth in the region has mainly been in the wake of LH downzise. AF/KL got the right formula for the region, increasing flights and services consistently.

There is information that LH will resume GRU twice daily again towards the end of the year. Let's see whether this will indeed take effect. But the harm will be done.

Rgs,
 
ghost77
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
MEX does not even get that many seats. I believe IB flies 11x weekly to MEX using mostly A343's with some A346's thrown into the mix. And with AM getting 772ER's with 34 in. pitch and PTV's in Y, IB will be hard-pressed to improve its service before adding more capacity.

Few days ago I was with IB A340 pilot and a.net spotter Javi Rodrí at MEX. I entered IB's briefing room and spoke with IB's MEX chief. IB a few months before NM's entrance and AM's increase of flights to MAD they were enjoying of a healthy 14X frequency operation. AM increase flights to 11X, later, NM join with flights to TLC with a 1X and since then, IB started facing problems, they have reduce it's flights to 11X. NM by March will go with 2X on route and AM/AF by April 1st will add BIG capacity to Europe! This will affect IB. He also told me that if things wet worse they might even reduce flights to 9X.

Now that LoCo's are flooding the internal market AM will be more aggresive in the long haul routes. They might sacrifce T7s to Europe in order to open Japan by mid 2006.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 19):
I doubt IB will receive any pressure with these initial 772ERs. They pose no threat to IB, since IB is operating bigger planes and the 777s would only be able to go daily if you dedicate both to the route.

They will, AM/AF will have a big monopoly in the Mexico-Europe market with 21X a week. They are offering good low fares and connections at CDG. AM's 777 will have 280 seats vs. IB343 with 240, still with disadvantage with 346 which have 352. But imagine, typical B762 configuration was of 178 seats!!! This is 100 more seats during some days!!!

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 19):
The real threat, I think, will begin as soon as AM starts getting more 772ERs, to be able to sustain a daily service with 772ERs.

They will! 3rd B777 will get home by November. And more frames will follow...!!!

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 22):
There are days when both flights to MEX are operated with the A346.

Those days are gone and sure not returning unless NM exits the market and MX/IB do something to reinforce it's share!!

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 22):
I stand corrected. What I meant was "Destinations such as MEX or EZE can do fine with 2 daily A346s".

Months ago, but not anymore!!

ghost77 APM
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Avianca
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 35):
I have gotten two answers to that question. One is that they are focusing more on other destinations where they can make fatter profits.

yes this point is totally true, they are focusing to ASIA destinations
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airbazar
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 27):
Sorry, but the statement "Asia" is too loose the same way the statement "South America" "or "the Americas" is also very vague. One has to look at specific markets. E.g. Brazil and Mexico are too hugely important markets that airlines simply cannot afford to neglect. AF and other airlines are well aware of this.

They're not being neglected. Like I said, Brazil is now better served than ever before via their Star Alliance partner, TAP. I don't think they've been reducing capacity in Mexico. And Asia although a broad statement, that's where they've been increasing service over the last 3 years. Especially China and India. China and India are far more imporant markets than Argentina, Chile, and Brazil. If you look at their finances, LH is expected to report a 550 million operating profit in 2005 with minimal (1%) capacity increase. In other words, they need to chose carefully where to allocate their aircraft. If India and China is where the money is, someone will have to lose service. Other than S.America I really don't see where else they could pull out from.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:28 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 29):
I can imagine that the yields on the Europe-Gru routes are going down with the additional services...

You're right. Consolidators every day announce special fares for C class and even for Y and F (it's easy to buy one and get two tickets) due to the high increase in capacity at GRU.

Concerning to LH, they made a very bad decision changing EZE-FRA in favor of EZE-GRU-FRA. They imagine that the pax from EZE will keep using the route but many of them decided to use AF and others instead of LH producing two bad routes (GRU-EZE and GRU-SCL). Those legs probably were the reason for the bad results on South America operations. If LH runs both legs under RG C/S probably nowadays they were trying to upgrade South America instead of drop a flight.

Felipe
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anxebla
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 31):
but I am sure we will see in some years again a powerfull LH in LatinAmerica.

Do you really think that? On my point of view, I don't think so.
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hardiwv
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:52 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 39):
China and India are far more imporant markets than Argentina, Chile, and Brazil.

Disagree. In my point of view, in general terms, Brazil is more important than India. Of course, the current darling of aviation is China, no doubt about it.

Brazil is far better served than India in terms of flights (both from US and Europe), and its population is a fraction of the Indian one. Of course, since the Indian market is so "underdeveloped" it has the potential for a huge increase in the future. Yet currently you cannot compare India to Brazil for a number of reasons: from income per capta to the fact that Brazilians dont need VISA for travel to Europe.

Although LH did axe flights to the region, you can see that airlines remain strong in key markets: MEX and GRU, both extremely well served, and airlines keep increasing capacity.

What I mean was one fact: LH did a lot of mistakes in the region, and its paying a high price for this. The decrease of flights to GRU shows how badly manage LH was in the region, while all other airlines are doing the opposite: increasing flights.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 39):
Like I said, Brazil is now better served than ever before via their Star Alliance partner, TAP.

For a number of reasons, TP flights are no substitute for LH service, especially for the high-yielding pax. TP only serves GRU and GIG both daily, while, for example, AF and IB already offer more flight to these key markets. Star market in Brazil is slowly being undermined: RG demise, TP (LIS is not important hub + low quality service) and now LH decrease in service. [UA at least double flights to GRU with increase of IAD-GRU to twice daily + ORD-GRU]

SkyTeam and OW are becoming more important in Brazil than Star- they just need a local partner. Once TAM and GOL make their decision (Sky or OW), Star will be relegated to third position.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 39):
LH is expected to report a 550 million operating profit in 2005

LH results are nothing to write home about: AF-KL operating profit 2005 is expected to be almost 1 billion. AF-KL have consistently increased flights in Latin America, not only in GRU and MEX (both had huge increase in capacity), but also in EZE, SCL, BOG, and CCS. LIM is expected to go nonstop B777 soon.

In my opinion Star has its days counted down in Brazil and maybe in the region, and there will be one airline to blame: LH.

Rgs,
 
Southamerica
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 39):
Like I said, Brazil is now better served than ever before via their Star Alliance partner, TAP.

Better served? Probably seen from LH's eyes, because we Latin Americans are the big-time loosers of the story. As Hardi well-said, TP's global service is simply not comparable with that of LH, and notice that I am not exclusively referring to onboard attention.

Your statement is as unreal as saying that BA is serving LatAm better than ever through its oneworld partner IB. From their own eyes they sure are.

I do agree and undertand, though, that both companies are more than free to quit Latin America if they see chances to make more money elsewhere. But hey, if they are going to keep serving the region's major markets anyway, at least do it in a reasonable way, which allow them to at least decently compete with AF or KL. As things currently stand, the only thing left is to see LH give its passengers to AF all wrapped in present-paper and topped with a blue ribbon.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 42):
In my opinion Star has its days counted down in Brazil and maybe in the region, and there will be one airline to blame: LH.

There does seem to be one Star member who is visibly interested in investing in Latin America: AC. The airline has also been enhancing its operation in the region.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
hardiwv
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RE: IB Increases MAD-GRU To 10 Weekly A343/A346

Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:49 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 43):
Better served? Probably seen from LH's eyes, because we Latin Americans are the big-time loosers of the story. As Hardi well-said, TP's global service is simply not comparable with that of LH, and notice that I am not exclusively referring to onboard attention.

Your statement is as unreal as saying that BA is serving LatAm better than ever through its oneworld partner IB. From their own eyes they sure are.

Completely subscribe to the above statement.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 43):
. As things currently stand, the only thing left is to see LH give its passengers to AF all wrapped in present-paper and topped with a blue ribbon.

Totally agree.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 43):
There does seem to be one Star member who is visibly interested in investing in Latin America: AC

Out of all Star partners, the only ones with evident interest in the region are AC and TP (Brazil). RG seems to be the weakest link in Star, which has a strong base in Asia with world class airlines SQ, OZ and Thai - this may also explain LH drive towards Asia. And I also dont think that the possible membership of TACA in Star will change Star's situation in the region.

Rgs,