FCKC
Topic Author
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:39 pm

Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:11 am

Heard a rumour , coming from an A340 AF captain , telling they are studying the A340-600E to replace their A340-300s.
Probably we will know if Airbus goes ahead with this new version at the end of March , when Qatar Aw will say if they buy it or goes to Boeing with the 777-300ER.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6215
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:13 am

Any particular reason why AF would want to do this? AF is already a 777-300ER operator and it seems to me it is a bit crazy to have both -300ER's and new A346E's.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):
Any particular reason why AF would want to do this? AF is already a 777-300ER operator and it seems to me it is a bit crazy to have both -300ER's and new A346E's.

The A340E might provide capabilities that the B777-300ER is out of reach. I would expect Air France to order the A340E if GE jump on board the project. One of the reasons that Air France did not order the A340-600 was that it only comes with RR.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6341
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 2):
The A340E might provide capabilities that the B777-300ER is out of reach

In order to be competitive, the heavier A345/6E would need to deliver this, and one would expect Airbus to plan for it.
A
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:25 am

Why would they replace A343s with A346Es? Are the routes that A343s are used on in need of more range-payload?

I guess engine choice will be an important factor here for AF, but I would be surprised if GE commits to an engine for the A346E as it would be a significant investment (as they don't have an A346 engine which they can upgrade) for what will likely be a split market (as RR will definitely have an engine for this aircraft if it is built) for an aircraft model that in all likelihood will have a limited shelf life.

[Edited 2006-02-24 20:34:51]

[Edited 2006-02-24 20:36:55]
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
rpaillard
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:57 am

Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:29 am

Does AF have any route that fit this kind of aircraft?
FLY SKYTEAM JETS
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 3):
In order to be competitive, the heavier A345/6E would need to deliver this, and one would expect Airbus to plan for it.

If Air France is indeed looking into the A340E than this means that Airbus is offering them a good product. Dont forget how much Air France loves those B777.

I would only expect them to order the A340E is GE jumps on board. Other wise I doubt it very much.

Regards,
Wings I
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5183
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
Heard a rumour , coming from an A340 AF captain , telling they are studying the A340-600E to replace their A340-300s.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

AF will not buy any more A340 of any kind.
A343 are still in AF's fleet for quite a few years. AF has always been that kind of airline who is using its a/c "until the end".

When the time will come , the A343 will be replaced by more B772ER/B773ER and/or more A332. Eventually A350-X or B787.

Please, be serious and use you mind before according credit to such ridiculous allegations, even if (or especially if) it comes from a Captain ...  sarcastic 
 
krisyyz
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
I would only expect them to order the A340E is GE
jumps on board. Other wise I doubt it very much

Why would GE do that?

Are you guys implying that GE could use one of its current models on the A340E like GE90's or CF6-8E1s-IMO out of the question. The GENx is still years away from certification. GE and Airbus don't seem to be the best bed-fellows, the CF6 was hardly used on the A330's, not since the A300/310s have GE engines been popular on a Airbus.

The A340E would be best with RRs, in my opinion.

Krisyyz
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6215
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
AF has always been that kind of airline who is using its a/c "until the end".

The 735's that it recently dropped from its fleet were still in reasonably good shape and I am sure they have found nice homes with less wealthy airlines that need small narrowbodies.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
If Air France is indeed looking into the A340E than this means that Airbus is offering them a good product.

Or maybe they are going through the motions to keep the powers that be in France placated. Remember there was a furor when AF wanted to buy 772ERs instead of more A343s. AF's CEO threatened to resign if AF was forced to buy only Airbus. After the French government relented and as a face saving measure for the politicos, they made some sort of commitment for A346s, which they conveniently got out of when it became an RR only aircraft.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 8):
Why would GE do that?

Are you guys implying that GE could use one of its current models on the A340E like GE90's or CF6-8E1s-IMO out of the question. The GENx is still years away from certification. GE and Airbus don't seem to be the best bed-fellows, the CF6 was hardly used on the A330's, not since the A300/310s have GE engines been popular on a Airbus.

The GEnx is pretty popular on the A350. CFMs sell well on A320s. And the GEnx will have to be certified in under 2.5 years for the 787 so I wouldn't call it years away. But GE will be starting from scratch to make an engine for the A346. And after years of griping by GE execs about the lack of ROI on the GE90, they have finally ended up in a position where they have exclusivity with GE90s on an aircraft that is dominating its sales category, so why detract from that.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5183
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 9):
The 735's that it recently dropped from its fleet were still in reasonably good shape and I am sure they have found nice homes with less wealthy airlines that need small narrowbodies.

Right. And this is the best example to show that this "rumor" is stupid :
The B735 are retired because AF is targeting the most rationalized fleet, around only one a/c type for its short/medium haul (A318/19/20/21) to save money.
Just like LH is doing, AF could continue to operate its B735 beside its Airbus fleet ... But it simply doesn't fit with AF's fleet policy.
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 8):
GE and Airbus don't seem to be the best bed-fellows, the CF6 was hardly used on the A330's, not since the A300/310s have GE engines been popular on a Airbus.

Excuse me?

GE are a partner on the A350. Their engines power around half of all A320 family aircraft and all A340 series before the A345/6! GE is the lead partner in CFM. They also have a half stake in Engine Alliance, the manufacturer of the GP7200 for the A380.

Just because they didn't run away with A330 sales for the CF6 doesn't mean you can deduce Airbus and GE have fallen out of love. GE's finance arm GECAS is probably one of the biggest Airbus buyers in the world.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
FCKC
Topic Author
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:39 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:44 am

Flyssc

I perfectly know how to use my mind.
Telling it's ridiculous , is ONLY your opinion.

I never said AF will BUY the A340-600E , i just said reporting to what i heard they are studying it.Not more , not less.
So keep your disobliging comments for your mind.

That's said , and answering to serious questions above , it is absolutly not stupid they think at this plane to replace A340-300s.
The main continent where these A340-300s fly is Africa , and flights are always surbooked.A larger and more economic plane to operate on these routes will be totally perfect.
The fact that AF loves and have many T7s , do not exclude a new medium wide body (if they order quite many examples of it) if it proves it is superior to the T7s , what it could be if Airbus launches it.

Would like to point out the A350 or 787 will be too small to replace the A340-300s.Has someone heard one day AF is seriously looking at the A350 or 787 ?Never heard of that.Probably as all airlines thru the world they are studying both planes , but they are very far to place an order for one of the types.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 14):
Flyssc

I perfectly know how to use my mind.
Telling it's ridiculous , is ONLY your opinion.

I never said AF will BUY the A340-600E , i just said reporting to what i heard they are studying it.Not more , not less.
So keep your disobliging comments for your mind.

That's said , and answering to serious questions above , it is absolutly not stupid they think at this plane to replace A340-300s.
The main continent where these A340-300s fly is Africa , and flights are always surbooked.A larger and more economic plane to operate on these routes will be totally perfect.
The fact that AF loves and have many T7s , do not exclude a new medium wide body (if they order quite many examples of it) if it proves it is superior to the T7s , what it could be if Airbus launches it.

you have some good arguments, but I personally believe AF would either change the route to the A330 (flew AF A330 to DXB, great aircraft) or to 777's.......

to add another subtype, especially one which competes with the 777-300ER wouldn't make any sense, especially given that the 777 is killing the A340 in sales due to superior economics..

now if you had said SA, LH, IB, or VS, I would agree with it........but not AF.. no 

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 9):
The 735's that it recently dropped from its fleet were still in reasonably good shape and I am sure they have found nice homes with less wealthy airlines that need small narrowbodies.

I was fortunate to fly on AF's 735 last summer.. biggrin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
krisyyz
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 13):
Excuse me?

GE are a partner on the A350. Their engines power around half of all A320 family aircraft and all A340 series before the A345/6! GE is the lead partner in CFM. They also have a half stake in Engine Alliance, the manufacturer of the GP7200 for the A380.

Just because they didn't run away with A330 sales for the CF6 doesn't mean you can deduce Airbus and GE have fallen out of love. GE's finance arm GECAS is probably one of the biggest Airbus buyers in the world.

Alright, I was wrong to say the GE and Airbus are not good partners. Your right about the wide use of CFM, I totally forgot about GE's part in CFM international.

I still stand by my opinion about GE not making a exclusive engine for the A340E, but my other comments where totally out of line.. my apologies.

Krisyyz
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5183
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 14):
i just said reporting to what i heard they are studying it

But what you heard is a nonsense and is against everything AF is doing and saying since the past 10 years.

Quoting FCKC (Reply 14):
The main continent where these A340-300s fly is Africa , and flights are always surbooked.A larger and more economic plane to operate on these routes will be totally perfect.

Wrong.
Additional seats will be provided by additional frequencies. Not by a bigger aircraft.

Quoting FCKC (Reply 14):
The fact that AF loves and have many T7s , do not exclude a new medium wide body (if they order quite many examples of it) if it proves it is superior to the T7s

This "medium wide body" is called A332 and AF is already using it largely on its African network.
The A332 is not "superior" to the B777 as they don't aim at the same market. A332 & B777 are not competitors, but they are perfectly complementary.
On the other hand, on this particular African network, the A332 (twin engines)proved to be far superior in terms of costs to ... the A343 (four engines).

Quoting FCKC (Reply 14):
Has someone heard one day AF is seriously looking at the A350 or 787 ?

It is been publicaly declared by AF's CEO J.C Spinetta, and reported in many news papers/websites/AF's internal news.

Quoting FCKC (Reply 14):
but they are very far to place an order for one of the types.

Right. AF's fleet renewal plan is secured until 2010.
Until then AF could add some A332 or B77X to adjust its fleet but no real big changes.

Quoting FCKC (Reply 14):
Telling it's ridiculous , is ONLY your opinion.

It is not.
It is ONLY obvious when you know how AF works and what is AF's strategy for the next 10 coming years.

Within the next 5 years AF Long Fleet will be rationalized to its maximum with B772ER/B773ER, A332/A343, & A380... and maybe few remaining B744 but nothing is less sure.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 17):

Within the next 5 years AF Long Fleet will be rationalized to its maximum with B772ER/B773ER, A332/A343, & A380... and maybe few remaining B744 but nothing is less sure.

I would add A319/320/321 also...
"Up the Irons!"
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5183
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
I would add A319/320/321 also...

Of course ... and A318 !
But I was talking about the Long Haul fleet ...  Wink
 
A319XFW
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:41 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:03 am

Just out of interest - what will happen to the AF A340 in YYZ? Will it be replaced by a new/second-hand frame (A340/T7/A330 etc) or not at all?
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:11 am

Cat in hells chance, as far as i can see.

The A343X/E's (whatever you want to call them) are very young and won't be replaced for a while.

The A340E won't even be in the same size bracket. Well maybe the A345E, but they've got loads of 777s to cover this area.

Seems totally unnecessary.
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:11 am

I really can't see this going anywhere.

The cheerleaders here love to poke at anything they see as Airbus changing and refining offerings, but the facts are different.

Airbus is quite fluid in its operation, and floats all kinds of projects before they become set in stone. The A350 was a prime example, as a midlife upgrade to the A330 was on the boards but the market drove development in a different way. But the screeching in here was beyond belief about warmed over designs.

What they can't accept is that an A350 in its currrent form has been in the design stage for years now. Airbus and Boeing both have project development divisions which come up with specifications and designs, many of which go nowhere. Airbus has been more open with its floating procedures which drives the cheerleaders into a frenzy when one such proposal hits the buffers. The A350 initially had a basic A330 upgrade format and then more advanced proposals, already at advanced design stage, were brought out instead to meet market demands.

And this one is no different. Building an A340 in the way Air France might be interested (GE powered) would be expensive, although Qatar Airways might take a look. I can't see this go anywhere beyond a proposal, and an eventual Air France A350 purchase.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Aither
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:43 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:12 am

"They are studying".

Some guys are just doing their job of analysing all the future available products. I think it tells nothing wether or not they would order the aircraft.
Never trust the obvious
 
JoeCattoli
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:06 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 17):

Quoting FCKC (Reply 14):
Telling it's ridiculous , is ONLY your opinion.

It is not.
It is ONLY obvious when you know how AF works and what is AF's strategy for the next 10 coming years.

Perhaps not all the people knows AF strategies as good as you...
We are so lucky to have people that knows simply everything... Isn't that amazing?  sarcastic 


I mean we all still don't know what will come out of the A340E, even if extremely unlikely with better economics than the T7 we don't know about it. Besides we should consider politics that can have a big role... Look at TG... They bought A340 after a T7 order... We never know.

Ciao
Joe
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19):
Of course ... and A318 !
But I was talking about the Long Haul fleet .

I knew I would be corrected by not putting that in...... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting JoeCattoli (Reply 24):
I mean we all still don't know what will come out of the A340E, even if extremely unlikely with better economics than the T7 we don't know about it. Besides we should consider politics that can have a big role... Look at TG... They bought A340 after a T7 order... We never know.

TG bought A340's because they had problems adhering to ETOPS requirements.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:25 am

Why airbus would still want to develop a 4-engines plane of the size of the a340 and why air france would still consider buying it is a mystery to me.
rolf
 
trex8
Posts: 4605
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:25 pm

why can't GE derate the GEnx-2B67 from the 748 for any enhanced A345/6???? Present A345/6s Trent 500 engines only have 56K thrust anyway.
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5183
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:31 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 20):
Just out of interest - what will happen to the AF A340 in YYZ?

The A343 F-GLZQ has not been replaced.
Before the accident, AF was operating a total of 21 A343 but the last A343 summer program was built for "only" 19 aircraft.
 
cuprita
Posts: 116
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:30 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:57 pm

The A340-600 cant fight with the B777-300ER........
PANASONIC DMZ-FZ5
 
gkirk
Posts: 23346
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:57 pm

Why would they need the A346 when they have 773ERs anyway?
Not planning on becoming another Emirates are they?  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
User avatar
Heavierthanair
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:20 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:00 pm

G�day

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
Heard a rumour , coming from an A340 AF captain , telling

Sounds like another "My mothers cousins uncles nephew overheard people dicussing this at the local pub" to me.  white 

But - Adding all the improvements/changes that were made to the A 330 to become the new 350 to the A 340 airframe would indeed result in a very capable longrange aircraft. Snap on new GEnx or equivalent RollsRoyces and off we go.  twocents 

Likely GE can use very similar engines to what they are doing for the 747-8, so no big expenditures and roughly in the same time frame.

That new 340 would then become a formidable competitor to the 777-300ER and the passenger version of the 747-8.  stirthepot 

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
columba
Posts: 5045
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:44 pm

It does seem very unlikely but who knows we have been surprised a lot over the years.
Air France has a lot of qualified A330/A340 crews and technicians around so it would not be like adding a total new aircraft to the fleet as it would be with LH ordering 777-300ERs.
If it makes sense for them having a mixed Boeing/Airbus longhaul fleet why not, other airlines are doing fine with a mixed narrowbody fleet.

Is AF also considering the 747-8 or will they be replaced with A380 in the long term ? How many A380s are on order ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
SA7700
Posts: 2940
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:03 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 17):

Wrong.
Additional seats will be provided by additional frequencies. Not by a bigger aircraft.

What if they cannot secure permanent additional frequencies? IIRC, not too long ago it was "reported" on a.net that AF applied for additional permanent frequencies between CDG-JNB. Apparently the request was denied by the South African Government and AF only got additional seasonal frequencies. Would you care to explain this, please?


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:26 pm

First of all little is still known about the A340E. From what we know is that it will incorporate various upgrades taken from the A350 and A380. New engines new fuselage, better aerodynamics, it might also offer same A350 cockpit and and to a certain extent the same style of fuselage.

It will offer significant fuel saving, with aditional range that should outperform the B777-200LR by a reasonable margin.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):

AF will not buy any more A340 of any kind.

Dont ever say never. In the aviation world all is posible.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 8):
Why would GE do that?

Why wouldnt they? If GE sees a good market oportunity they will grab it. Do you think that they prefer to hand RR all the market for the A340-500/600E?

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
Or maybe they are going through the motions to keep the powers that be in France placated.

Well thats a classy responce.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 13):

Excuse me?

GE are a partner on the A350. Their engines power around half of all A320 family aircraft and all A340 series before the A345/6! GE is the lead partner in CFM. They also have a half stake in Engine Alliance, the manufacturer of the GP7200 for the A380.

Just because they didn't run away with A330 sales for the CF6 doesn't mean you can deduce Airbus and GE have fallen out of love. GE's finance arm GECAS is probably one of the biggest Airbus buyers in the world.

Well said Whitehatter. GE and Airbus have been good partnersm since the begining.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 17):

But what you heard is a nonsense and is against everything AF is doing and saying since the past 10 years.

Just because you dont believe it? They are studying the A340E. Nothing more.

Quoting Aither (Reply 23):
"They are studying".

Some guys are just doing their job of analysing all the future available products. I think it tells nothing wether or not they would order the aircraft.

Yep.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 26):
TG bought A340's because they had problems adhering to ETOPS requirements.

That was one of the major contributing factors that TG ordered the A340.

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 27):
Why airbus would still want to develop a 4-engines plane of the size of the a340 and why air france would still consider buying it is a mystery to me.

Because they might be able to make it economical. Has it ever crossed your mind that the A340-600E might actually provide better economics than the current B777-300ER?

Quoting Cuprita (Reply 30):
The A340-600 cant fight with the B777-300ER........

Really? Even though the A340 got a whipping from the B777 in 2005, its far from being dead.

Today I came across a post in a Portuguese Aviation site in relation to Tap Portugal looking into the A340-500. Do I believe it? NO. But all is posible.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5183
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:30 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 35):
Dont ever say never. In the aviation world all is posible.

In A.netters dreams maybe. Not in the real world.

Would you say that SN Brussels/Swiss/Finnair or even TAP Portugal could buy the A380 ? I don't think so ... except in one's dream.

An airline doesn't built a fleet plan or buy an aircraft like we decide to change your living room, or to buy a bottle of wine.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 35):
Just because you dont believe it?

No. Simply because it's against all AF logic, principals, and strategy announced, published and explained by AF ten thousand times.
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:47 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 36):
Would you say that SN Brussels/Swiss/Finnair or even TAP Portugal could buy the A380 ? I don't think so ... except in one's dream.

Why not? In TAPs case the Portuguese Government may eventually decide not to build a new airport in Lisbon. This may mean that they will become slot restricted in a few years resulting in TAP aquiring larger frames.

If comercial aviation continues this trend of growth, I say that many current small playesrs such as Tap, Swiss, Finnair may just have to do that.

But like you said this might be just another A.net dream.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00006525.jpg

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5183
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:51 pm

I am not really crazy about the new TAP colorscheme but that's a nice "picture" !!!

And after all, what would life look like without dreams ???  Wink
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:03 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 38):
I am not really crazy about the new TAP colorscheme but that's a nice "picture" !!!

And after all, what would life look like without dreams ???


Well thats true. Sometimes all we have are dreams. The tricky thing is turning them into reality.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 4834
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:27 pm

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 8):
the CF6 was hardly used on the A330's

That's used to be true but they've picked up a lot of the recent orders. Just last week they added Jet Airways to their list. They're still in third place on the A330 with about 26% of the sales and well behind RR with 42% but they're gaining on PW who have about 30%. PW aren't picking up any new A330 customers. They're being split pretty evenly between RR and GE so GE will sooner or later pass PW.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 13):
GE is the lead partner in CFM.

Really? In what sense? It's a 50:50 deal and I don't see Snecma acknowledging that they're the junior partner.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 26):
TG bought A340's because they had problems adhering to ETOPS requirements.

They also had a big fleet of A330s. That was probably a factor too. And they have previously bought A300s and A310s. And the A345 was available earlier than the 772LR. And, gasp, they may just have liked the A340!

Quoting Cuprita (Reply 30):
The A340-600 cant fight with the B777-300ER........

Not the current version, perhaps. That's why Airbus are studying an improved (E) version and that's what AF may or may not be looking at.

As for the original topic, I'd be surprised if AF bought the A346 (with or without GE engines) but I think it might be premature to rule it out. Like any good airline, they'd be prudent to study anything that Airbus or Boeing are proposing. if (IF!) the A346E turns out to better the 773ER then AF would have to weigh the costs and benefits of flying a mixed fleet against sticking with their 777s. Their close ties to the French government and their long association with Airbus must also be factors. What I do find curious is the suggestion that an A346E would be a replacement for the A343. It's much bigger and has much more range. Surely AF's best bet for current A343 routes would be more 772ERs or even A359s?
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3188
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:31 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 32):
Likely GE can use very similar engines to what they are doing for the 747-8, so no big expenditures and roughly in the same time frame.

That new 340 would then become a formidable competitor to the 777-300ER and the passenger version of the 747-8.



Quoting WINGS (Reply 35):
Why wouldnt they? If GE sees a good market oportunity they will grab it. Do you think that they prefer to hand RR all the market for the A340-500/600E?

You all should remember that GE is a risk sharing partner on the 777-200LR/300ER. They put up money to fund the development and share the profits with Boeing on the sale of every one of these models.

The only situation that could possibly attract GE to the A340-500/600E would be an exclusivity arrangement (no RR) and the prospect that the A340E would be dominate its market segment (more than 70% of sales).

Since neither of these conditions are likely to be true, its hard to see why GE would want to be a supplier on the A340E and be in competition with the 777LR where it shares in the profits.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:42 pm

Two things -

1. Every major airline world wide looks at and analyzes new models and variants being offered by the manufacturers......AF is certainly interested in seeing what Airbus has come up with in the 300 seat longrange category and will study the A340-600E variant. You can be sure that AF has people looking at the A346E, just as Virgin seriously looked at the 773ER before it placed a followup order for the A346,etc, etc. This is competiton and the airline biz is a tough industry: if the new A340-600E offers any advantages over the 773ER, AF wants to know about them so the issues can be addressed. Airlines also like to see what is out there and what deals are available to ensure that they are getting the right prices and terms on their aircraft leases and purchases - we are talking about hundreds of millions of dollars. Would AF be interested in the A346E if Airbus presented a killer offer - who knows? Never say never in the airline biz.

2. I think its highly unlikely that AF would actually order the A346E - they are a very satisfied 777 customer and seem very committed to the 773ER variant for important longhaul routes. AF will slowly phase out the A343 over the long term and I dont think it will be directly replaced: AF will order additional A332s for the lower demand A343 routes and 772ERs will take over the remaining A343 routes with additional 773ERs being ordered over the long term to fill-out the fleet - obviosuly, aircraft allocations will be juggled as time passes. AF has been unique in that it happily operates the A343 and 772ER side by side with the types being dedicated to slightly different niches at AF, but I dont think that AF will repeat this pattern and operate both the A346E and 773ER......AF is moving to an ideal longhaul fleet with a mix of A332, 772ER/773ER and A380 aircraft.
 
hb88
Posts: 760
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:25 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:09 pm

I think it's probably better to wait and see what comes of the 340 HGW, 600, 700 and other interesting future variants in the family before saying never about anything in relation to the 340 family. Of course, notwithstanding that Airbus could of course simply drop development of the family.

Qatar and Emirates have already orderd the extended range A340-600 MGW and I think Thai may have as well. Despite the reliability problems with the series (some of which is due to the engines rather than the airframe), I think the extended variants show some promise.

In any case, any airline which *doesn't* go through the exercise of considering viability of new and proposed aircraft for their particular route network is incompetent, so the argument over whether AF is or isn't considering the A340 is moot.

Personally, I like flying long haul in the 340 from a pax point of view, I've always found them roomier and quieter than for example the older 777 variants. I also think it's quite a beautiful aircraft - although your mileage may vary on that one!
 
trex8
Posts: 4605
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 43):
Despite the reliability problems with the series (some of which is due to the engines rather than the airframe)

according to the FI article last year RR said there had been no IFSDs for the Trent 500 though LH had several unscheduled removals but most of the problems which beset the A346 early on and resulted in lower than expected dispatch reliability were to do with galley problems and non engine issues according to the 4 or 5 operators who spoke with them. The early experience of the Trent 500 on the A345/6 was according to RR no worse than the earlier Trents.
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3188
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 44):
according to the FI article last year RR said there had been no IFSDs for the Trent 500

SQ did not respond to FI on A345 questions for the article. I don't believe SQ would agree that there have been no Trent 500 IFSDs.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
SA7700
Posts: 2940
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 42):
Never say never in the airline biz.

I absolutely agree! A very prominent (A.net) SA A346 cheerleader made the mistake, a year or so ago, by stating on this forum that SA's B744's would never again see United States soil in SA livery. This was after the A346's and A343's replaced the B744's on the South Africa-United States routes.

What do you know? SA announced a JNB-IAD-JNB service on B744's (gasp) in 2005 - so much for all the "insight" and inside info. Never say never in the airline biz.  Wink


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 41):
You all should remember that GE is a risk sharing partner on the 777-200LR/300ER. They put up money to fund the development and share the profits with Boeing on the sale of every one of these models.

The only situation that could possibly attract GE to the A340-500/600E would be an exclusivity arrangement (no RR) and the prospect that the A340E would be dominate its market segment (more than 70% of sales).

Exactly. GE didn't work their way to being on the top of the corporate "Best Run/Most Respected/Best Brand/Top Market Cap/etc" lists by being stupid.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Cruiser
Posts: 920
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 am

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:08 am

Airbus would probably take about 5 years to get this plane developed and certified. During this time also, the 777 will continue to develop. Just last year the 773ER reduced its fuel usage by a further 1.4%.

Personally, I think that it might prevent more airlines (like AC) totally abandoning the A340 in preference of the 777, but I think that the 777 will still rule the market.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
Joni
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Rumour: Air France Studies A340-600E

Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 23):
Some guys are just doing their job of analysing all the future available products. I think it tells nothing wether or not they would order the aircraft.

I agree completely. I bet BA has been extensively studying the 380 as well, but that's just part of their job of running a huge international carrier and doesn't yet mean that they'll order.

Who is online