DeltaRNOmd-80
Topic Author
Posts: 1979
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 7:42 am

Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sat Jun 03, 2000 2:31 pm

Why do most Russian airliners have their wings on top of the fuselage? It looks strange and it seems to put more stress on the wings because they look like they are sagging....

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Paul J. Hooper



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Colin K. Work



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Brian Wilkes



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Tomislav Muic



Any info appreciated, thanks!
 
sccutler
Posts: 5567
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

Simple- Poor Field Ops

Sat Jun 03, 2000 2:41 pm

The high-wing Russian aircarft you showed are derivatives of military transport designs; high-wing aircraft are much more well-suited to operations from unimproved/underimproved fields (such as military ops might be), because:

1. Engines less likely to ingest foreign objects;
2. Wings further away from FO's, as well as being above more ground-based obstructions, like small trees, vehicles, pesky civilians;
3. Landing gear narrower track from fuselage, narrower runway/strip requirements;

I know I'm missing a lot, but analogize to C-141; C-5A; C-17
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Samurai 777
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 2:56 pm

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sat Jun 03, 2000 2:55 pm

A lot of those are generally used for cargo, both military and civilian, but I've read that the Il-76 has been converted partially for passenger use. It is shown in the last photo in DeltaRNOmd-80's topic post. The same goes for the An-72/74 (they're very similar in appearance - and that is shown in the 2nd photo of DeltaRNOmd-80's topic posting).
 
Guest

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sat Jun 03, 2000 6:08 pm

The wings are not sagging, but have what is known as Anhedral. Western civil aircraft have dihedral, which is when the wings seem to point upwards along their span. This is an inherently stable design and I will illustrate this in a moment.

The previous posts have already mentioned the military aspect of Russian aircraft design, in particular civil airliners. Illushyn 62's, Tupolev 104, 124, 134 and 154 are all civil airliners with anhedral. Western military aircraft also have anhedral, so why?

A military aircraft must have rapid response to the controls for maximum manouverabiity in a conflict situation, therefore an unstable design will assist in this respect.

The best way to illustrate the differences between anhedral and dihedral is to imagine a small ball cut in half. One half has the open side uppermost and the other the open side down.

The half with the open side up we will call dihedral. Now imagine placing a pea in this half. The result is that the pea finds it's way to the bottom and remains stable.

Now with the open side down half which we will call anhedral, placing the pea on the top of the ball will require skill to prevent it falling to one side or the other. It reasons therefore that the slightest movement will cause the pea to roll rapidly, where as the stable pea in the dihedral half will require a much more determined movement to make it move. Also this pea is easily returned to a stable condition, where the anhedral pea is not.

The Boeing 747 with low wing dihedral and underslung engines was designed for civil use from paved runways, but the Lockheed C5A Galaxy with a high mounted anhedral wing was designed for military use.

Going back to the Russian designs, I can only assume that their civil airliners were designed with massive troop transport in mind during the Cold War years.

I hope that explains it well enough, just think of the pea as an aircraft fuselage.
 
tanguy
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 7:32 pm

...And The BAe 146/RJ

Sat Jun 03, 2000 6:54 pm

The Russians were so often 'accused' of copying the designs from the west as 'evidenced' by the IL62 (VC10ski), TU 144 (Concordski), the TU154 copied directly from the B727 and Trident, etc, etc. Now the "west" has realised its revenge with the BAe 146/RJ series which were so obviously copied directly from the Russians!!!!
( Okay it's been a long day at my end and I needed to say something silly. Cheers and g'night!)
 
Guest

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sat Jun 03, 2000 6:58 pm

Good point Tanguy,

Maybe it's so they can squeeze the 146 into tiny airports where no other jet dares to go!
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sun Jun 04, 2000 1:37 am

Robin27 did a really good job of explaining how anhedral and dihedral works.

I do want to add that the reason these military aircraft use it is because, in the case of the C-5 and the C-17, the aircraft is designed to haul around a 70 ton tank that has it's center of gravity much lower then the wing.

This makes the aircraft want to behave like a top and return to straight and level. Since so much weight is so low on the airplane. By having a wing with considerable anhedral the wing can counter some of the aircraft tendecy to retun to level flight in a turn.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sun Jun 04, 2000 2:17 am

How did they come up with the nicknames "VC-10ski" and "Concordski"?
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

Hey!

Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:45 am

THREE OF THE FOUR PICTURES YOU POSTED WERE NOT OF RUSSIAN AIRPLANES!!!!!!!!!! IF YOU ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING AT LEAST HAVE SOME IDEA OF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.........
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Guest

RE: Hey!

Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:51 am

You should watch your tone Slawko, they may be operated by ohter countries, but it does not mean they are not Russian built!
Maybe it's you who should watch what you are saying...
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Hey! Jmbyulac

Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:57 am

I was not talking about who operates them..... THE FIRST THREE PICTURES ARE NOT OF RUSSIAN BUILT PLANES!!!!!!

Again don't talk if you don't know what you are saying!


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
ben88
Posts: 1037
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 4:49 pm

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sun Jun 04, 2000 7:03 am

Ok so they're Ukrainian. We still understood what he was trying to ask. No need in screaming.
 
Guest

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sun Jun 04, 2000 7:04 am

I consider Antonov as a Russian manufacturer. Where else should it come from ?
 
ben88
Posts: 1037
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 4:49 pm

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sun Jun 04, 2000 7:09 am

Antonov is based in Kyiv, Ukraine.
 
Guest

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sun Jun 04, 2000 7:10 am

Slawko....

You are wrong in one regard.

Antonov is a Ukrainian manufacturer....not Russian (You got this right).

The Il-76 is manufactured by the Tashkent Aviation Production Association.....and as such is, technically, not Russian, but Uzbek.....even though Ilyushin is a Russian company.

 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

Ok......

Sun Jun 04, 2000 7:11 am

Ok well I'm sorry that I capitalized my post, but You have to understand it from my point of view, you would think that after ten years people would be a bit mor open minded and informed...It's is almost like a personal insult to hear RUSSIAN applied to me, and where I am from....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

Brissie_lions...

Sun Jun 04, 2000 7:14 am

You are right, and I was not sure about Illushyn, but I had a feeling...non the less I was not sure so I didn't want to say anything...only about what I was sure of...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Guest

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sun Jun 04, 2000 8:26 am

Slawko,

When we say Russian built it is a generic term for aircraft coming from the area formerly known as the USSR.

When we say Western built, it does not mean aircraft built in the USA, Airbus are also Western built. They are generic terms, and nothing more.
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sun Jun 04, 2000 8:39 am

Generic term would be "Soviet" the country was called the Soviet Union not RUssia, infact russia was not really a nation from 1921 to 1991, nor was Ukraine or Belorus, or any other former soviet country, so using a generic term for those airplanes is and should be soviet built, no RUssia.....

I know this may seem like something stupid to most of you out there, but to those who have been "generalized" injustly for so many years it is an important topic..regardless of the medium....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Guest

Slawko

Sun Jun 04, 2000 8:51 am

I agree totally with you there mate. Calling Antonov a Russian aircraft, is like calling the Canadair RJ an American aircraft.

For many years people in the *West* (what does a country need to do to be defined as 'in the West', as I live in Australia and as far as I am concerned I don't live in the West), have gotten it completely wrong when referring to the sovereign republics as Russia.

In fact, even within the Russian Federation, there are many republics where people hate being referred to as Russian.

For example, the Mi-8/Mi-17 is built in Kazan in the Republic of Tatarstan, and as such are Tatar helicopters...not Russian.

As I mentioned b4 about the Il-76, the Il-114 is also built in Tashkent by TAPO (which explains why Uzbekistan Airways is the most important customer to date).

Technically the only airliners I can think of which are Russian are the Tu-204, which are built at the Aviastar factory in Ulyanovsk.
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Slawko

Sun Jun 04, 2000 8:56 am

Thank you very much Brissie_Lions, I am glad that at least someone agrees with me.....

It is not easy trying to get your point accross if you are the only one who is trying....

thanks again......maybe we got the point accross to at least a few people....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Guest

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sun Jun 04, 2000 9:10 am

It's a shame Slawko chose to take this off topic in such a loud manner, so we read Soviet for Russian. It still means the same to many people.

All the same, thanks for the history lesson.  
 
JAT
Posts: 1064
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 4:45 am

RE: Why Do Russian Airliners Have

Sun Jun 04, 2000 11:10 am

I also compleatly agree with Slawko, it's just I don't mention it anymore because people tend to be very ignorant about it.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ab345, AC_B777, Andy33, angad84, Baidu [Spider], calt03, cougar15, dk44, GianiDC, Google Adsense [Bot], Karlos, mict, na, OSUk1d, PM, Someone83, speedygonzales, SpoonNZ, ty97, VSMUT and 260 guests