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solnabo
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Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:10 am

Read this in Flygtorget *only in swedish*

http://www.flygtorget.se/nyheter/nyhetsdetaljer.asp?ID=3821

More to read in http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/

Cant find the article thou....

Micke//SWE
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N328KF
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Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:54 am

Since Swedish is far from being a lingua franca, how about a translation?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
airlinelover
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Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
Since Swedish is far from being a lingua franca, how about a translation?

 checkmark 

Chris
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casinterest
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Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:02 am

Found this on the web

Boeing Sued

Basically, they are complaining that even though the pilots were possibly negligent, Boeing should have had a more robust checklist and alarm system for the pressurization system .....

How many takeoffs have 737's had?
How many decompressions?

This was a tragic accident, but I am not sure what the law will have to say about Boeing's responsibility here.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
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solnabo
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Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:08 am

CasInterest:

Thank U for saving me and my bad english translation

Micke//SWE  relieved 
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MaverickM11
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Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:09 am

Boeing is always sued the instant a plane crashes, regardless of what the causes of the crash are. It's standard practice--sue first, ask questions later.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
YYZflyer
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:16 am

Does the depressurization have something to do with the design of the 737 , bad maintenance or something else ?......
Avoid hangovers, stay drunk.
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting YYZflyer (Reply 6):
Does the depressurization have something to do with the design of the 737 , bad maintenance or something else ?.

See the document linked above. It has already been established that the pilots flew the aircraft with the pressurization system incorrectly configured, and are therefore negligently responsible.

The lawyers can complain all they like that Boeing were negligent in their alert system designs and checklists, but I don't think it will hold much weight. If anything, the lawsuit should be against Helios for evident inadequacies in training and situation testing of their pilots.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting YYZflyer (Reply 6):
Does the depressurization have something to do with the design of the 737

Apparently not. It's flown countless cycles and obviously has no problem with its pressurization design.
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WesternA318
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting YYZflyer (Reply 6):
Does the depressurization have something to do with the design of the 737 , bad maintenance or something else ?......

If this was the 60's or 70's Id have to ask that question, but the basic design of the 737 has proven itself for decades. The fault lies with Helios' crew inadequacies.
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AirlineAV8tr
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:53 am

Does anyone know when this a/c was last inspected by maintenance? Seems to me that the fault would lay with them- not the pilots.
If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
 
AMSSFO
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 3):
Found this on the web

The reader's comments are particularly nice

Quote:
Posted By: Borders
Comment:
Right. Boeing might even have been among the victims :

Cyprus' plane wasn't it flying too close to Turkish borders when the system reportedly went astray ?

Electronics are too fragile, when exposed to EM waves, etc.


and

Quote:
Posted By: Still flying
Comment:
Explain to me, what representative of Boeing was on the flight deck when the Helios pilots failed?

 biggrin   banghead   laughing 
 
PureKiwi
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:36 am

The crash was most likely caused by the pilots because most Aircraft Crashes these days are Human Error. Also it isn't boeings fault if the pilots forget to pressurize the plane or run the checklist properly and since this plane has been flying for years why would a fault only show up after all this time?

Robert
 
kellmark
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:18 am

Guys

This is standard litigation strategy. Sue all possible plaintiffs within the statute of limitations. If you don't you lose the possibility of it.

I also don't think anyone can say for sure that the airline, the pilots, the manufacturer of the aircraft, ATC, or anyone else involved is not responsible yet, as the facts are still being developed. Just because an airplane has been in service for decades doesn't mean that there might not have been a problem in this instance. Sometimes it takes years for a problem to be known. Also, you can bet that Boeing will defend the suit vigorously. A big factor here is that the big pockets happen to be with Boeing. Much more than the airline, which is a small company.

I believe that maintenance issues, pilot training, language problems and overall crew performance will be major factors here, but there could also be a problem with the aircraft systems. But we really don't know for sure yet. So the attorneys for the victims are simply doing their job.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:23 pm

Yep, when i worked for a law firm in NYC, we had a hit and run client, and the standard procedure was to file suit against:

the driver who fled the scene
his employer (he was coming home from a function)
toyota of north america (he was driving a lexus)
toyota motor credit corporation (the lexus was leased)

deep pockets. Lawyers suck. These were good people I worked for, but it still turned me off of being a lawyer.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:40 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
Boeing is always sued the instant a plane crashes, regardless of what the causes of the crash are. It's standard practice--sue first, ask questions later.

This is true of all aircraft manufacturers and is mostly the reason why Cessna 172s cost almost as much as a decent house now. Remember the idiot who didn't have his seat in a secured position, the seat moved backward on flare, he stalled the aircraft, and he sued Cessna for his own inability to be "responsible for the operation of the aircraft"? Aviation lawyers are some of the most ruthless. I know of some who own their own jets. Anytime an airliner crashes there is ALWAYS litigation.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
onetogo
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:12 pm

Quoting FUMANCHEWD (Reply 15):
Remember the idiot who didn't have his seat in a secured position, the seat moved backward on flare, he stalled the aircraft, and he sued Cessna for his own inability to be "responsible for the operation of the aircraft"?

That gentleman actually lost his life in that fatal crash. His family filed a wrongful death suit on his behalf. Obviously you have never flown in the front seat of a Cessna aircraft before. All of us on here who have would know better than to label the victim as an 'idiot'. Please choose your words more wisely.
 
optionscle
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:30 pm

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 16):
That gentleman actually lost his life in that fatal crash. His family filed a wrongful death suit on his behalf. Obviously you have never flown in the front seat of a Cessna aircraft before. All of us on here who have would know better than to label the victim as an 'idiot'. Please choose your words more wisely.

I have flow a 172, and can tell you that I would never take off without rocking back and forth to make sure that the seat is securely positioned. It's one of the first lessons learned! It is the pilots job to ensure the safety of the flight and that includes his/her own ability to safely control the aircraft.

First you sue McDonalds for heating your coffee too hot, next is Cessna for you being incompetent of positioning your seat correctly. Give me a break! Anyone who defends this person has never flown a plane.
 
DeC
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:33 pm

Well, there's obviously no meaning to this as well as many other plane crashes where the manufacturer of the plane gets sued just for the sake of it. I perfectly understand the grief and pain of the families as I too come from Cyprus and I live all the events first-hand. However everyone pretty much knows that all the investigation evidence point to the direction of a clear pilot error and we’re just waiting for the official conclusion to prove this further; the rest are just plain silly lawyer policies.
DEC
 
IDAWA
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:29 pm

In my personal opinion based on what has been known so far about the accident, there was a small mistake by Boeing in using the same alarm for incorrect t/o config and lack of pressurization, and a larger and larger mistake by the pilots in not knowing the above small mistake.

I-DAWA.
Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 340, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC9, D10, M11, M80, 146, EM2, BEH, CRJ, DH8, L4T.
 
flywithjohn
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:38 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
Yep, when i worked for a law firm in NYC, we had a hit and run client, and the standard procedure was to file suit against:

the driver who fled the scene
his employer (he was coming home from a function)
toyota of north america (he was driving a lexus)
toyota motor credit corporation (the lexus was leased)

deep pockets. Lawyers suck. These were good people I worked for, but it still turned me off of being a lawyer.

does that mean it's FedEx,Boeing,MAC and Newbalance that I tripped on my way into the plane yesterday morning?
Why do they allow these frivlous lawsuits?

I wonder if anyone sued pepsi for breaking a nail and getting an infection for opening a can of Mt.Dew of course Ball for making a faulty can and the packin plant. The plant supervisor's mother, for giving birth to him and....just kidding
Always Blue Sky's.....
 
kellmark
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 17):
Quoting Onetogo (Reply 16):That gentleman actually lost his life in that fatal crash. His family filed a wrongful death suit on his behalf. Obviously you have never flown in the front seat of a Cessna aircraft before. All of us on here who have would know better than to label the victim as an 'idiot'. Please choose your words more wisely.

I have flow a 172, and can tell you that I would never take off without rocking back and forth to make sure that the seat is securely positioned. It's one of the first lessons learned! It is the pilots job to ensure the safety of the flight and that includes his/her own ability to safely control the aircraft.

A couple of important points.

1. As I recall, the seat track itself failed in that accident, so that even if you had checked the seat being secure before takeoff, it wouldn't have mattered.

2. Yes the lawsuit frenzy against general aviation aircraft manufacturers was very difficult for them and that is why a number of them went bankrupt (Piper) and others stopped producing light aircraft (Cessna). But this was changed by the General Aviation Revitalization Act in the 1990s, which placed limits (A statute of repose) on how far back you could actually go to sue a manufacturer, limiting it to 18 years maximum. This helped to protect manuafacturers who previously were open to lawsuits for aircraft they had built 30-40 years before.

This is why we have seen Cessna, New Piper, Beech but especially others, like Cirrus and Lancair/Columbia come back into the market. The number of general aviation aircraft being built is increasing year over year.
 
DTWAGENT
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:57 pm

How many more backup systems can an aircraft have. The B737 has had its problems, but over all is one of the safest planes in the air. This law suit is just another way of taking the blame off of the aircraft maint. personel and the aircraft crew. You can only have so many backup systems and check list per aircraft type or the plane would never get off the ground.....
 
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yowza
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:44 am

This is ridiculous. Suing Boeing for an operator's stupidity is not on. What else do these jokers want to ground every 737 currently in use?  Yeah sure Idiots.

YOWza
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 16):
That gentleman actually lost his life in that fatal crash. His family filed a wrongful death suit on his behalf. Obviously you have never flown in the front seat of a Cessna aircraft before. All of us on here who have would know better than to label the victim as an 'idiot'. Please choose your words more wisely.

I have quite a bit of time in Cessnas. Never assume that you know more than a stranger. Please tell me how my statement is incorrect? The seat system was flawed, but so was the pilots ability to be the "person directly responsible" for the aircraft. I always double check the seats are secure.

How is the fact whether the crash was fatal or not relevant to a frivolous lawsuit? Try making a valid point next time.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
JoeCattoli
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:34 am

Quote:
when the Boeing 737-200 crashed into a Greek hillside north of Athens.

Not even very informed... wasn't it a 737-300?

Ciao
Joe
 
DeC
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:48 am

Quoting JoeCattoli (Reply 25):
Quote:
when the Boeing 737-200 crashed into a Greek hillside north of Athens.

Not even very informed... wasn't it a 737-300?

Ciao
Joe

Indeed, it was a Boeing 737-31S  Yeah sure This was the plane:



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DEC
 
satx
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 17):
First you sue McDonalds for heating your coffee too hot,

The McDonald's coffee case sounds crazy, but was actually legit. Unless you have some new information in the case, you might want to think about that before using it as an example of frivolous lawsuits.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
N908AW
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting JoeCattoli (Reply 25):
Not even very informed... wasn't it a 737-300?

Ahhh yes. The meticulous critique of a news article by a.nutters.  thumbsup 
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
onetogo
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:51 pm

Quoting FUMANCHEWD (Reply 24):
Please tell me how my statement is incorrect?

You called the victim an "idiot". How absurd.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:23 pm

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 20):
Why do they allow these frivlous lawsuits?

Well, allow and win are two different things. You file a complaint and list everyone as a defendant, then the judge in the case will examine the evidence and see who should be included and who can be dismissed.

In other words, you can't "not allow" something because then who gets to decide who can be sued? You must allow anyone to be listed on a lawsuit, and then the court can decide if it is warranted. Unfortunately, this creates expense for the innocent, which is why some advocate some kind of loser pay system. this is also unfair, but maybe a should apply only for dismissals, as it would discourage pursuing 'deep pocket' defendants with no cause.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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zeke
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:31 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 9):
If this was the 60's or 70's Id have to ask that question, but the basic design of the 737 has proven itself for decades. The fault lies with Helios' crew inadequacies.

Some ponits to ponder ...

1) A function check of the masks maybe successful even with the Oxygen turned off upstream due to latent pressure in the system

2) The cabin altitude warning is similar to other warning

3) Ergonimically difficult yo physically check the position of the valve

4) Two independnent systems are not available to a safety critical feature, they are subject to a single point of failure (valve position).

5) Was this the first time its happened ?
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
bill142
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:52 pm

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 13):
This is standard litigation strategy. Sue all possible plaintiffs within the statute of limitations. If you don't you lose the possibility of it.

Exactly. Its most likley Helios' insurance company which is suing Boeing and not Helios. They have probably forked over to Helios for the hull write off and need to recover the cost. Boeing are the target.

Quoting SATX (Reply 27):
The McDonald's coffee case sounds crazy, but was actually legit

Someone once sued a pub because he was drunk and thought that it would be a smary idea ti strap some steaks (Meat) to his feet and walk around. He slipped over, injured himself and he publican was deemed to have broken his duty of care to the patron.

If Boeing is deemed to have broken its duty of care, which is for the courts to decied and not us, then they will be appropriately penalised.
 
piercey
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:24 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
Boeing is always sued the instant a plane crashes, regardless of what the causes of the crash are. It's standard practice--sue first, ask questions later.

 checkmark 

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 7):
The lawyers can complain all they like that Boeing were negligent in their alert system designs and checklists, but I don't think it will hold much weight.

Where was the lawsuit filed: Cyprus, Greece or other?

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 7):
If anything, the lawsuit should be against Helios for evident inadequacies in training and situation testing of their pilots.

Who has the deeper pockets?

Quoting FUMANCHEWD (Reply 15):
Aviation lawyers are some of the most ruthless.

 checkmark 

Quoting FUMANCHEWD (Reply 15):
I know of some who own their own jets.

funny, I thought these were the own and drive their own RVs b/c flying is unsafe.  duck 

Quoting FUMANCHEWD (Reply 15):
Anytime an airliner crashes there is ALWAYS litigation.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
Kangar
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:48 pm

I think this lawsuit can be filed under the "Throw enough s%&t and see if anything will stick anywhere" category......What's sad is that the days this sad, tragic crash happened, somewhere, a law firm saw an opportunity , if nothing else, to raise their profile.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Boeing Sued For Helios Crash

Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:47 am

Actually, Boeing was also sued after the 1977 Tenerife disaster, and paid 5% of the total insurance that was given to the victims and relatives. The reasoning being that the upholstery used in the PanAm plane was defective and burnt quicker than it should.

After the 1974 THY crash near Paris, a widow of one of the pax sued (McD)Douglas, General Dynamics (supplier of the defective cargo door), Convair (subcontractor of GD), Turkish Airlines and the US government (presumably the FAA) for giving the plane an airworthiness certificate. Total sum $54m.

So, sueing Boeing in the Helios case does fit a pattern.
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