matt
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:36 am

Halifax-Punta Cana Routing

Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:49 pm

Can anyone explain why the routings from Halifax to Punta Cana vary so much depending on the airline flying the route? CanJet hugs the US east coast (which is longer), whereas WestJet and Air Canada go directly over the ocean. I imagine it has to do with the type of aircraft used.

At the moment (7:30 Atlantic Time, Sat. Feb. 25), the two flights are operating, and as you can see the routing is very different. CanJet uses the 737-500 and WestJet the newer 737-700.

You can check the routing at www.flightview.com

C6 8804
WS 6690
Next flights: YQM-YYZ-YOW v.v. / YQM-CUN v.v. / YQM-YUL-YWG v.v. / YSJ-YYZ-SEA-SFO / SFO-YYZ-YOW-YQM / YQM-YYZ-MUC-TXL /
 
dutchjet
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Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Halifax-Punta Cana Routing

Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:54 pm

In this case, it could depend upon whether the subject aircraft are equipped for overwater flights and have certain equipment, including rafts, on board. It has nothing really to do with the type of aircraft, or that the 73G is newer, it simply has to do with the emergency equipment carried onboard the aircraft. Airliners without the overwater equipment must stay within miles of the coast line. Seems as if Westjet has an overwater equipped airplane on the route today, and Canjet does not.

Also, please note that this is not an ETOPS issue......different rules and regulations.
 
matt
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RE: Halifax-Punta Cana Routing

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:03 pm

Thanks Dutchjet. I figured it had something to do with the aircraft not being equiped for over-water flights (not to be confused with ETOPS), because an appropriately-equiped 737-500 could certainly operate such a flight. With the number of flights to the Caribbean that CanJet is operating out of Halifax in the winter, I'm surprised their aircraft are not equiped for such flights.

That being said, CanJet's routing is longer because it has to hug the coast. But then again, passengers have no real clue.
Next flights: YQM-YYZ-YOW v.v. / YQM-CUN v.v. / YQM-YUL-YWG v.v. / YSJ-YYZ-SEA-SFO / SFO-YYZ-YOW-YQM / YQM-YYZ-MUC-TXL /
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
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RE: Halifax-Punta Cana Routing

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting Matt (Reply 2):
Thanks Dutchjet. I figured it had something to do with the aircraft not being equiped for over-water flights (not to be confused with ETOPS), because an appropriately-equiped 737-500 could certainly operate such a flight. With the number of flights to the Caribbean that CanJet is operating out of Halifax in the winter, I'm surprised their aircraft are not equiped for such flights.

That being said, CanJet's routing is longer because it has to hug the coast. But then again, passengers have no real clue.

Its not all that unusual that Canjet is using a non-overwater aircraft on this segment, it happens all of the time. Think about it this way: its the peak of the caribbean season at the moment, lots of pax going to the sun, so Canjet is using everything and anything it can to move pax to the carib, including non-overwater equipped 737s. During other seasons, say 80% of more of the year, Canjet has far less operations to the caribbean and uses the aircraft only on domestic Canada services.....why equip the aircraft with overwater equipment - the equipment costs money, must be maintained and adds weight to an aircraft. The 735 enroute from Halifax to Punta Cana at the moment may only do 10 rotations per year on overwater flights, so it simply does without the equipment and takes the longway to the caribbean on overwater segments.
 
matt
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RE: Halifax-Punta Cana Routing

Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:21 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Its not all that unusual that Canjet is using a non-overwater aircraft on this segment, it happens all of the time. Think about it this way: its the peak of the caribbean season at the moment, lots of pax going to the sun, so Canjet is using everything and anything it can to move pax to the carib, including non-overwater equipped 737s. During other seasons, say 80% of more of the year, Canjet has far less operations to the caribbean and uses the aircraft only on domestic Canada services.....why equip the aircraft with overwater equipment - the equipment costs money, must be maintained and adds weight to an aircraft. The 735 enroute from Halifax to Punta Cana at the moment may only do 10 rotations per year on overwater flights, so it simply does without the equipment and takes the longway to the caribbean on overwater segments.

Interesting... What exactly does equiping an aircraft in such a way involve?

As for the rotations, CanJet does 14 return flights a week to the DR, Cuba and Mexico from Halifax (Feb-May), which is more than ever. The flights to Cuba and Mexico, however, can be more easily routed over the US (or close to the coast).

But in fact, for the rest of the year, this is of no importance, as most flights are over land.

Other question: Why would WestJet have their aircraft equiped in such a way? Long-term planning? Flights to Hawaii, Europe (maybe)?
Next flights: YQM-YYZ-YOW v.v. / YQM-CUN v.v. / YQM-YUL-YWG v.v. / YSJ-YYZ-SEA-SFO / SFO-YYZ-YOW-YQM / YQM-YYZ-MUC-TXL /
 
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longhauler
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RE: Halifax-Punta Cana Routing

Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:15 am

The big requirements are life rafts/survival equipment and HF radios.

Air Canada has specially equipped A319s and A320s in their fleet for Caribbean flying. You can distinguish them, as their safety cards refer to them as A319M and A320M. These aircraft are equipped with slide/rafts, survival equipment and HF radios. (Life jackets are required too, but all AC aircraft are life jacket equipped.)

Before the A320, we also used to fly B727s to the Caribbean. These aircraft (designated B727M), were INS and HF radio equipped and as well as survival gear, 6 seats were removed overwing, and life rafts were installed!

[Edited 2006-02-25 16:18:09]
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MyOthrCarsA777
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RE: Halifax-Punta Cana Routing

Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:02 pm

What exactly does overwater mean? Does flying over any body of water at all (i.e. across Lake Superior) necessitate having the equipment? What about flying to cities on nearby islands, such as YYJ, YFB, or YYT?
 
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longhauler
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RE: Halifax-Punta Cana Routing

Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:19 am

Aircraft may fly up to 50 nm from a suitable emergency landing site without any overwater equipment on board.

For flights from 50 nm to 400 nm from a suitable emergency landing site, life jackets must be carried.

For flights beyond 400 nm from a suitable emergency landing site, life/slide rafts must be carried in addition to life jackets.

After this, ETOPS rules take effect, and it is graded in terms of distance covered with relation to approved single engine cruise speed. For the aircraft I fly, that is 414 knots. For overwater operations, in properly equipped aircraft, our A320s can fly 517 nm, or 75 minutes from a suitable emergency landing site.

In our domestic operation, there are no routes that require life/slide rafts. However life jacket demonstrations must be completed on some routes, so to simplify the operation, they are done on all flights. In your example, yes YYT requires life jackets, but YYJ does not. YFB operated under different rules, as it flew near to the "sparsely settled area".
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
matt
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RE: Halifax-Punta Cana Routing

Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:38 am

That explains the CanJet 737-500 "hugging" the US East Coast and the Bahamas all the way to the Dominican Republic!
Next flights: YQM-YYZ-YOW v.v. / YQM-CUN v.v. / YQM-YUL-YWG v.v. / YSJ-YYZ-SEA-SFO / SFO-YYZ-YOW-YQM / YQM-YYZ-MUC-TXL /
 
filejw
Posts: 312
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RE: Halifax-Punta Cana Routing

Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:15 am

HF radios are not a requirement for overwater flight.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Halifax-Punta Cana Routing

Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting Filejw (Reply 9):
HF radios are not a requirement for overwater flight

No they are not. They ARE however required for flying within New York Oceanic airspace. When flying from the northeast US to the Caribbean, you will fly through NY Oceanic, unless you route straight south, to just north of Nassau, then head southeast.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!

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