Finkenwerder
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A380 Evac Trials Next Week

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:42 am



Well MSN0007 is getting preped as I write this. Anyone care to speculate if everyone will make it in 90 seconds !
 
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shamrock350
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:48 am

I hope they do! It would be great to watch!
 
smokeyrosco
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:13 am

thats about 1 passenger per slide per second, thats some feet.
John Hancock
 
jorge1812
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 1):
I hope they do! It would be great to watch!

I think it'll work in 90 secs but it would be intersting to see what happens if not. Might be no big problem as the A-380 will have a maximum of 555seats at the moment and not 800 and more as it's in the test

Georg.
 
leelaw
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:50 am

Interesting, last week's electronic edition of FI reported that the evacuation testing would commence on March 26. What's your source for the trials beginning next week?

There was extensive discussion of this topic in a thread earlier this week:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2616526/
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
474218
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:20 am

Quoting Jorge1812 (Reply 3):
I think it'll work in 90 secs but it would be intersting to see what happens if not. Might be no big problem as the A-380 will have a maximum of 555seats at the moment and not 800 and more as it's in the test

If they do the test with only 555 seats (assuming they pass) then that will be the maximum number of passengers the A380 can carry, so I am sure they are going for the 873. With all the things that can go wrong I doubt Airbus wants to do the test more than once.
 
Glom
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:40 am

I thought they'd sorted out the whole evacuation thing ages ago. They're leaving it a bit late, aren't they?
 
smokeyrosco
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:38 am

is that 873 plus or including crew?
John Hancock
 
CVG72
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:02 am

873 pax in 90 seconds!? That's gotta be some kind of record or something!

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 7):
is that 873 plus or including crew?

According to the picture that's including crew, I think.....

CVG72
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Glom
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:24 am

Quoting CVG72 (Reply 8):
873 pax in 90 seconds!? That's gotta be some kind of record or something!

Well it is a bigger airliner than what has come before so it's not really that shocking.
 
Finkenwerder
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:52 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 4):
Interesting, last week's electronic edition of FI reported that the evacuation testing would commence on March 26. What's your source for the trials beginning next week?

My Source is me.....I am working on MSN0007, the trials are set for next weekend, unless we encounter any unforseen tech snags. I'll try to post some pics if I'm around at the weekend.

Please don't believe all you read in the press. If anyone has any questions regarding this aircraft or A380 production in general feel free to ask and I'll try to tell you exactly whats going on, and if I don't know I know a man who does. It's dismaying to see the complete rubbish that is often quoted around this project. Hopefully we can improve the quality of debate with some facts.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
so I am sure they are going for the 873.

Correct.

[Edited 2006-02-26 08:53:52]

[Edited 2006-02-26 08:54:51]
 
NumberTwelve
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:13 pm

Quoting Jorge1812 (Reply 3):
the A-380 will have a maximum of 555seats at the moment

EK is planning about 650 seats in 2 class configuration.
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LTU932
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:20 pm

The scariest part will be sliding down from the upper deck exits. I personally cannot bare the thought of eventually doing it myself.

I hope Airbus will make the magical number of 873 with this emergency slides testr. And if not, then I say it won't be less than 800. Maybe at one point they'll even go for the 900, if they make 873.
 
andessmf
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting Finkenwerder (Reply 10):
It's dismaying to see the complete rubbish that is often quoted around this project

Please elaborate, because I have yet to have found a good source for aviation anything. I have always had to gather bits and pieces.

I might even suggest that you start a thread to remove the rubbish that you have heard or seen.
 
leelaw
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:57 pm

Quoting Finkenwerder (Reply 10):
My Source is me.....I am working on MSN0007, the trials are set for next weekend, unless we encounter any unforseen tech snags. I'll try to post some pics if I'm around at the weekend.

Thanx. It's great that someone actually working on the aircraft is wiiling to answer questions and clear up what we've been reading in the media.

According to press reports, MSN002 (which arrived at XFW on November 8th) was originally tasked with the evacuation testing. Why was MSN007 (which had its maiden flight just last weekend) substituted for this test, or has the press gotten the testing schedule and the status of these aircraft wrong from the get-go?

What is the status of MSN002? Has it flown at all since November 8th?

http://www.aviationindustrygroup.com/index.cfm?format=953

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRHeft/FRHeft05/FRH0511/FR0511g.htm

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...powers+on+through+flight-test.html
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Kangar
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:36 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 14):
According to press reports, MSN002 (which arrived at XFW on November 8th) was originally tasked with the evacuation testing. Why was MSN007 (which had its maiden flight just last weekend) substituted for this test, or has the press gotten the testing schedule and the status of these aircraft wrong from the get-go?

Chances are, this is one of those tests Airbus would like to conduct as secretly as possible, - if it works out, they can present it to the industry as a fait accompli, and if there are evac problems, they have a few weeks to study what could be done to improve performance, before the oficial date?
 
A319XFW
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Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:47 pm

Quoting Kangar (Reply 15):
Chances are, this is one of those tests Airbus would like to conduct as secretly as possible, - if it works out, they can present it to the industry as a fait accompli, and if there are evac problems, they have a few weeks to study what could be done to improve performance, before the oficial date?

The problem is, the evac test won't be able to be conducted secretly, as a great majority of the people on board are non-Airbus employees and it'd be very hard to keep them quiet!
 
redneckslim
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:25 am

The tests at the mock up at Goodyear AZ (makers of the slides) have been full of glitches. The slides have been able to carry the weight, but the bottelnecks at the doors are taking too long. People are scaired shitless when they look down all that distance and see the ground way down there. Lets hope the real thing using other than jr high school kids will work.
 
A319XFW
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting Redneckslim (Reply 17):
Goodyear

Surely you mean Goodrich?
But when it comes to the test the cabin crew will just push people out and scream at them to get the hell out!
 
A319XFW
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:35 am

Hang on - I just realised.
You mean you're saying they've managed to get all those seats and cabin in, in 2 weeks, when it takes about one week to sort the cabin out for an A320?
And this is only the second time they've done this...

Or is the cabin not going to have walls, ceilings and only toilets and galleys to get in the way of the evacuation?
 
RichardPrice
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 19):
Hang on - I just realised.
You mean you're saying they've managed to get all those seats and cabin in, in 2 weeks, when it takes about one week to sort the cabin out for an A320?
And this is only the second time they've done this...

Or is the cabin not going to have walls, ceilings and only toilets and galleys to get in the way of the evacuation?

They have to be there, but they dont have to be functional. The aircraft interior isnt going to win any beauty or functionality prizes for this test, thats for certain.

Quoting Redneckslim (Reply 17):
The tests at the mock up at Goodyear AZ (makers of the slides) have been full of glitches. The slides have been able to carry the weight, but the bottelnecks at the doors are taking too long. People are scaired shitless when they look down all that distance and see the ground way down there. Lets hope the real thing using other than jr high school kids will work.

Source? All the stuff Ive seen on it shows no issues with the slides.
 
redflyer
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 18):
Surely you mean Goodrich?

Goodrich manufactures the slides, yes. But there is a suburb of Phoenix named Goodyear, which is where Redneckslim was referring to.
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
A319XFW
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 21):
Goodrich manufactures the slides, yes. But there is a suburb of Phoenix named Goodyear, which is where Redneckslim was referring to.

Ahh Thanks for that! it is confusing as there is of course Goodyear who makes rubber! Perhaps that's where the tyres Goodyear is from...
Like Nokia is originally from Nokia etc
 
Poitin
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting Kangar (Reply 15):
Chances are, this is one of those tests Airbus would like to conduct as secretly as possible, - if it works out, they can present it to the industry as a fait accompli, and if there are evac problems, they have a few weeks to study what could be done to improve performance, before the oficial date?

I think you nailed it. This test is bigger than even the first flight because it determines the MAX PAX for the plane. And I will repeat my statements that I would never fly the upper deck of a A380. I once went down the slide of a MD-10 when the captain smelled smoke of something, and that was as high up as I want to go down. Still, I would fly on the lower deck.

I honestly wish Airbus good luck and success on this, as I think they worked hard in designing such a magnificent machine.

And Kangar, could you please use the spelling checker? It is "official". I mean, they put in this niffy new spelling checker last week and it is so much easier to use.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Kangar
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 23):
And Kangar, could you please use the spelling checker? It is "official". I mean, they put in this niffy new spelling checker last week and it is so much easier to use.

Nope, I'm just too lazy.
 
leelaw
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 20):
Quoting A319XFW (Reply 19):
Hang on - I just realised.
You mean you're saying they've managed to get all those seats and cabin in, in 2 weeks, when it takes about one week to sort the cabin out for an A320?
And this is only the second time they've done this...

Or is the cabin not going to have walls, ceilings and only toilets and galleys to get in the way of the evacuation?

They have to be there, but they dont have to be functional. The aircraft interior isnt going to win any beauty or functionality prizes for this test, thats for certain.

Back in mid-December when MSN002 was scheduled for the evacuation test FI reported that:

"MSN002, which is tasked with 500h of flight testing, is being equipped with a 474-seat, three-class cabin. However, before being completed the cabin will be modified into a high-density 853-seat arrangement for the evacuation trial in around March, says head of A380 industrial design Michael Lau. “This will be achieved by removing bulkheads and galleys to incorporate the extra seats,” he says."

According to Finkenwerder (who claims to be "working on" MSN007) the 853 passenger seat specialized "evacuation cabin" will be installed and ready for the test less than two weeks after MSN007 (F-WWSD) arrived at XFW following its maiden flight on February 19th at TLS.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...powers+on+through+flight-test.html

[Edited 2006-02-26 17:23:34]

[Edited 2006-02-26 17:27:41]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
RichardPrice
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 25):

Back in mid-December when MSN002 was scheduled for the evacuation test FI reported that:

"MSN002, which is tasked with 500h of flight testing, is being equipped with a 474-seat, three-class cabin. However, before being completed the cabin will be modified into a high-density 853-seat arrangement for the evacuation trial in around March, says head of A380 industrial design Michael Lau. “This will be achieved by removing bulkheads and galleys to incorporate the extra seats,” he says."

According to Finkenwerder (who claims to be "working on" MSN007) the 853 passenger seat specialized "evacuation cabin" will be installed and ready for the test less than two weeks after MSN007 (F-WWSD) arrived at XFW following its maiden flight on February 19th at TLS.

Thanks for that, I was under the impression there would be such items in the cabin, but obviously not  Smile

I stand corrected.
 
Poitin
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting Kangar (Reply 24):
Nope, I'm just too lazy.

Well, I tried. Big grin

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 25):
According to Finkenwerder (who claims to be "working on" MSN007) the 853 passenger seat specialized "evacuation cabin" will be installed and ready for the test less than two weeks after MSN007 (F-WWSD) arrived at XFW following its maiden flight on February 19th at TLS.

Do I sense a question of veracity in your mind?  Smile I guess we are just going to have to wait and see what happens. Does Airbus suddenly announce that it completed the test, or does Finkenwerder report that it has been pushed back ot late March? "Only the Shadow knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men."  angel 
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
buslover
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:37 am

Sorry to correct, it's 2,5 passengers per exit per second.

Why? Because half the exits will be blocked and the "cabin crew" of the final test will not know before which ones.

As far as I know it's a Lufthansa crew doing the tests as cabin crew.
The best airplane is the one you fly
 
leelaw
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 27):
Do I sense a question of veracity in your mind?

I'm willing to accept his version of what's going to happen, at least until next Sunday.  Smile

Quoting Poitin (Reply 27):
I guess we are just going to have to wait and see what happens.

Exactly. Apparently, based on earlier reports in the aerospace media (see the links in my reply #14), there was a significant and somewhat abrupt change of plans in recent weeks regarding the tasking of MSN002 and MSN007 in the overall test program.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Poitin
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 29):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 27):
Do I sense a question of veracity in your mind?

I'm willing to accept his version of what's going to happen, at least until next Sunday. Smile

Oh, man of little faith! Big grin

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 29):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 27):
I guess we are just going to have to wait and see what happens.

Exactly. Apparently, based on earlier reports in the aerospace media (see the links in my reply #14), there was a significant and somewhat abrupt change of plans in recent weeks regarding the tasking of MSN002 and MSN007 in the overall test program.

I have been aware that both planes were at one time or another scheduled for this test since November, with the actual plane changing by the week. However, there was certainly some confusion.

It also makes sence that Airbus do a trial run or two first, given the importance of this test. Lotsa money riding on it. They sold a 853 PAX airplane and if they can't deliver it, then they are in deep do-do.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
S12PPL
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:46 am

With all the issues they've had so far in they're testing....I predict we'll see a big failure here. Followed by the USA saying "Nope, sorry. You can't fly passenger flights into the US until you prove you can evacuate in 90 seconds!"
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RichardPrice
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Buslover (Reply 28):
Sorry to correct, it's 2,5 passengers per exit per second.

Why? Because half the exits will be blocked and the "cabin crew" of the final test will not know before which ones.

As far as I know it's a Lufthansa crew doing the tests as cabin crew.

Actually its just over 1.2 passengers a second per exit, 109.1 total, as there are 8 available exits (16 on the aircraft alltogether, 8 blocked), 873 bodies and 90 seconds.
 
A319XFW
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 31):
With all the issues they've had so far in they're testing....I predict we'll see a big failure here. Followed by the USA saying "Nope, sorry. You can't fly passenger flights into the US until you prove you can evacuate in 90 seconds!"

Care to wager money on that? As if they don't make the target, it'll just be certified to a few passenger less. And the aircraft is going to get FAA and EASA certification around the same time.
 
Aircellist
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:51 am

Let's say that it takes the crew 15 seconds to find the proper doors and open them If the evacuation is planned to last 90 seconds, that should be the maximum time needed. That leaves 75 seconds to evacuate the plane.

Let's see:

873 ppl in 75 secs is 11.64 pers./sec.

11.64 pers/sec. through 8 doors is 1.455 person/exit/sec.

So, if the crew can make 3 persons leave the plane every 2 seconds through each door, it will be a success. Buslover, how did you get to 2.5 persons per second?

About the furishing of the plane... I suppose that, however big the beast is, there may not be much room left for fancy walls and amenities when it is filled with 873 seats.

Only wait until the evacuation test of the A380-900... That will be something.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
RichardPrice
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:02 am

Ok, as per my previous post of 873 passengers and crew, 8 doors, 1.2 passengers a second for the A380, let me give you some figures on the 777-300 certification:

550 passengers, 5 doors, no idea on numbers of crew (anybody?) so excluding them from the equation for the 777-300.

Thats 110 passengers per door, verses the A380s 109.1.

Thats jsut about 1.2 passengers per second for both aircraft.

Add the crew in for the 777 figures and the figure can only go up. The 873 figure for the A380 definately seems plausable.
 
leelaw
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 30):
I have been aware that both planes were at one time or another scheduled for this test since November

I hadn't seen any reports in the media that MSN007 might/would be tasked with the evacuation testing until the item in the electronic edition of FI last Monday reporting that MSN007 had made its maiden flight on February 19th, was headed soon to XFW to be fitted-out for evacuation testing, which would commence on March 26th. I was surprised by this news, but figured the improvisation was necessary to make sure that MSN002 & MSN007 achieved maximum flying time between now and the end of September when flight-testing is scheduled to be completed.
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Poitin
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 31):
With all the issues they've had so far in they're testing....I predict we'll see a big failure here. Followed by the USA saying "Nope, sorry. You can't fly passenger flights into the US until you prove you can evacuate in 90 seconds!"

I think you misunderstand. Airbus will have to test a lower number if they fail the first test and a retest -- official ones at least. Then they will have to sell the plane as certified for that lower number, which will probably be in the 600 range.

They will NOT fly anywhere until they do that test in 90 seconds, whatever the number may be.

Since I have a house on a hillside with a 15 meter back wall, I can look out over the edge of my deck and see what I would see from the upper deck of the A380. It is far, far higher than I want to jump, particularly down a slide set at a 45 degree angle.

Good Luck Airbus, and be glad I am not in the test. Big grin
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
RedDragon
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:42 am

It might be worth pointing out that Airbus is reportedly going to be able to pre-deploy the slides before the test commences. In the real world, I believe the slides (are certified to) deploy and inflate fully within a maximum of ten seconds from door opening, no?

Rich
 
Finkenwerder
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:45 am

I gave up trying to requote/rebut the the questioning of my voracity, and or the other slights. In short....

MSN0002 has not flown since arriving and is currently being worked on. Most work involves electrical trades and they are working nights in order to gain full access and not interfere with other system functionals ! Not advisable to have power on when your trying to mod electrical systems.

MSN0007 I will know more on wednesday about the evac trials and will post any further info I have.

I give you this information in good faith and you can make of it what you will, I am certainly not going out of my way to proove to anyone my credentials.

[Edited 2006-02-26 20:48:30]
 
Poitin
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting RedDragon (Reply 38):
It might be worth pointing out that Airbus is reportedly going to be able to pre-deploy the slides before the test commences. In the real world, I believe the slides (are certified to) deploy and inflate fully within a maximum of ten seconds from door opening, no?

Rich

You are correct. The referees will choose which of the slides will be used. They will be predeployed and tested for security. This is to keep the carnage to a minimum. The 90 seconds will start with everybody in their seats, but the doors opened and slides already secured to the ground. Not very realistic, but them be de rules.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
richm
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:01 am

Do they do a detailed instruction for the volunteers to teach them how to evacuate and use the slides safely? Or would they just show them a safety video as they would on a real flight?

Also, are the volunteers assigned to specific exits?
 
Markhkg
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 40):
The 90 seconds will start with everybody in their seats, but the doors opened and slides already secured to the ground. Not very realistic, but them be de rules.

That being said, the evacuation will take place in the dark, with the only lights being the evacuation lighting system. Also, cabin "debris" (such as pillows, luggage and blankets) are scattered around the cabin.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,354366,00.html
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
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ER757
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 31):
With all the issues they've had so far in they're testing....I predict we'll see a big failure here.

I predict you're wrong. Let's remember each others' predictions and join the post-test thread that will surely appear and see who gets to say "told you so."  Wink
 
rolfen
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:37 am

1 - I hope nobody will get hurt
2 - I hope we'll have a video from that to watch
rolf
 
redflyer
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 40):
The 90 seconds will start with everybody in their seats, but the doors opened and slides already secured to the ground. Not very realistic, but them be de rules.

Is that typical of past evac tests, to have the slides predeployed? Or is it something that's been implemented recently? I thought the 90 second requirement was inclusive of opening the doors (the ones that weren't deliberately blocked) and blowing open the slides.
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
WingedMigrator
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 37):
Since I have a house on a hillside with a 15 meter back wall, I can look out over the edge of my deck and see what I would see from the upper deck of the A380.

You'll be glad the A380 upper deck isn't anywhere near 15 meters off the ground then!
 
leelaw
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Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting Finkenwerder (Reply 39):
MSN0002 has not flown since arriving and is currently being worked on. Most work involves electrical trades and they are working nights in order to gain full access and not interfere with other system functionals ! Not advisable to have power on when your trying to mod electrical systems.

Thanx for answering my second question, I sincerely appreciate your response.

Perhaps you'll be so kind, and be willing to take the time to answer my first question as well if I repeat it:



Quoting Leelaw (Reply 14):
According to press reports, MSN002 (which arrived at XFW on November 8th) was originally tasked with the evacuation testing. Why was MSN007 (which had its maiden flight just last weekend) substituted for this test, or has the press gotten the testing schedule and the status of these aircraft wrong from the get-go?

Thanx in advance.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
rolfen
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A380 Evac Trials Next Week

Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:43 am

They should do something like tell volunteers: you have a reward for evacuating the plane. The reward starts at say $400 when the evacuation signal is given, but it will decrease by $5 with every second until you reach a predefined place or cross some kind of finish line.

Maybe that would help simulate passenger behaviour?
rolf
 
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A380 Evac Trials Next Week

Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 45):
Is that typical of past evac tests, to have the slides predeployed? Or is it something that's been implemented recently? I thought the 90 second requirement was inclusive of opening the doors (the ones that weren't deliberately blocked) and blowing open the slides.

I read everything I could find on evac tests and can't find anything that says that you have the doors opened and the slides deployed. It does say if you have over wing exits you can place stands by the wing so the evacuees can get off the wing and can place mats and inverted life rafts to provide some cushion for the evacuees. But nothing about have the doors open and the slides deployed. Did someone find anything different?

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