supa7E7
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Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:13 pm


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The Jetstar... flown by James Bond in the 1960s...

4 engine biz jet with unbelievable style!

It seems the Mexican government has one still flying. Several are for sale. Are any private citizens still rocking this jet?
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
MX757
Posts: 495
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:19 pm

There are alot left, I see them all the time parked at Signature on the west ramp here at MCO.
Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:21 pm

I saw the Mexican government's Jetstar in Albuquerque back in March of last year. Stopped to clear customs on its way to Aspen.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
VHTAE
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:29 pm

Didn't Andre Agassi have one?

VH-TAE.
 
peachair
Posts: 216
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:45 pm

Quoting Supa7E7 (Thread starter):
Are any private citizens still rocking this jet?

There are still 24 Jetstars on the USCAR.
 
srbmod
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:52 am

George Shinn's (Owner of the New Orleans/OKC Hornets) Jetstar 2 is a common sight @ PDK.


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ImperialEagle
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:55 am

I saw a beautiful J-Star II at PDK last week------parked over at Epps. Great a/c----like to hear them take-off---distinctive sound.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
L1329II
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting PeachAir (Reply 4):
There are still 24 Jetstars on the USCAR.

If I remember correctly there were about 200 built before the late 1970's. Due to noise restrictions and the high cost of retrofitting the early -6 and -8's (original P&W engines) to the 731 engine most that were not retrofitted went overseas. There are abundant parts for these things and it seems just about every A/C salvage yard has at least one Jetstar. Now with the high cost of fuel I would give the rest of them about 10 -15 years to completely dissapear.  crying 

In 1990 there were (I think) 44 in service now that number is 24. The majority of these flying are the Jetstar II (L-1329-II) those that came out of the factory in the 70's with the 731's.

Now on a sentimental note: There will never be another A/C like the Jetstars. They are a very graceful plane. A true "Cadillac!"
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
atcrick
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:42 am

There is one that I used to see at Addison Field, Dallas, Texas all the time. Anybody have any info on that one? Sorry, I don't remember the tail number. But I just loved driving by seeing it on the way to work all the time.
natch!!
 
DeltaRules
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:10 pm

There was one at SFB last summer when I was there.

DeltaRules
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jetstar
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:14 pm

Lockheed built 162 of the 4 engine P&W turbojet powered JetStars from the 60’s to the early 70’s and 40 of the TFE731 powered JetStar 2’s in the late 70’s. About 70 of the original Jetstars were re engined with the same 731 engines in the late 70’s to early 80’s by Airesearch Aviation at a cost of about 1 million dollars. This gave the JetStar trans continental range while the older version had about 1500 to 1800 miles range.

I heard 2 stories from Lockheed employees why the JetStar 2 production was shut down after 40 airplanes. One is that Lockheed was trying to get the USAF to replace its older JetStars with the newer models for its VIP fleet and the USAF instead opted to buy the Gulfstreams instead. The other story was that in the very late 70’s when Boeing was starting to build the 757 and 767’s, they placed a large order with Alcoa for the large aluminum blocks that the wing planks are made of and tied up Aloca’s production for over 2 years. Alcoa also made the blanks for the JetStar and they told Lockheed they would have to wait for theirs. Lockheed then decided to shut down JetStar production.

I would guess there are just a few of the P&W versions still flying, probably outside of the US because of noise restrictions. From what I have seen in the photo database, there are quite a few of the updated versions still flying and I have heard over half of the JetStar 2’s are still in service. The 2’s are still going for over 2 million. There has been a 2 on Ebay recently, opening bid was 2 million and the reserve still has not been met.

Lockheed could have sold more of the original JetStars, but in the mid 1960’s most of the corporate pilots were WW2 veterans many who did not have any high performance aircraft time and some were afraid of the airplane, they were used to flying the DC-3 type airplanes at 180 mph, so they would not recommend the airplane to their companies. Those pilots who had high performance time or were not afraid transitioned very easily to the JetStar.

The JetStar was the first full sized corporate jet that had room to stand up and walk around. The airplane had seating for 9 passengers in the main cabin and if needed the cockpit jump seat was available for the 10th passenger. In the forward section of the cabin was club seating for 4 with the first 2 seats facing rearward. They shared a drop leaf table that was raised from the cabin sidewall. On our JetStar we had a removable leaf that connected the 2 tables that made it into a conference table. The seats were fully articulating, they would rotate on the base so they could face each other for a meeting and track for and aft besides reclining. The rear section of the cabin had 2 seats facing each other and a 3 place divan along the other side and the galley and lavatory was in the rear.

Many people have not had the experience of sitting backwards during take off and being pushed against the seatbelt especially during a steep climb. I did it a few times and it felt weird to say the least. Because of this most of the times the lowest ranking passengers got to sit backwards and some did not like it, but others did.

The cockpit jump seat was a favorite place for some of our passengers, they sat between the pilots just behind the center console and had a great view of the front office and out the windows. We pilots also liked someone sitting is the jump seat, because it was awkward to get out of the cockpit with the seat occupied, the passenger would get us coffee or anything else we needed. Sometimes when more than one passenger wanted to sit there, one would sit there for takeoff and the other for landing. When not occupied the seat folded up flat against the cockpit bulkhead in the entrance way.

I spent a good part of my corporate aviation days on the JetStar, both in maintenance and flying, I absolutely loved the airplane and this is why I picked JetStar as my user name. There were no computers controlling the airplane or its systems. Large 4 engine airliners in the 60’s and 70’s had a flight engineer, but on the JetStar with 4 engines, 6 fuel tanks and its associated systems, the copilot besides being a pilot also had to act like a flight engineer. The JetStar did what you wanted it to do and it was a very forgiving airplane to fly.
 
L1329II
Posts: 285
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting Jetstar (Reply 10):
would guess there are just a few of the P&W versions still flying, probably outside of the US because of noise restrictions. From what I have seen in the photo database, there are quite a few of the updated versions still flying and I have heard over half of the JetStar 2’s are still in service. The 2’s are still going for over 2 million. There has been a 2 on Ebay recently, opening bid was 2 million and the reserve still has not been met.

I think in the 80's and 90's operators were pleased with the entry price of the A/C being around $5 Million or below with true standup cabin but then when the fuel bill came in and old 5 year "tank and plank" inspection came around it was not a nice little suprise to the accounting dept!

Thanks for the write up!
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
redneckslim
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:31 am

Wayne Newton had one, James Brown defaulted on a lease for one..... and you can find a mile of um' falling apart down at rattelsnake gulch in the desert of Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson AZ.
 
L1329II
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Redneckslim (Reply 12):
Wayne Newton had one, James Brown defaulted on a lease for one..... and you can find a mile of um' falling apart down at rattelsnake gulch in the desert of Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson AZ.

John Travolta had one (N155AV) Kenny Rogers had one too ... we could be here forever...
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
leelaw
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting Jetstar (Reply 10):
Many people have not had the experience of sitting backwards during take off and being pushed against the seatbelt especially during a steep climb.

I had this experience a few times on WN when "lounge seating" was the norm.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
leothedog
Posts: 113
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:16 am

*Adding Jetstar to my Respected User list*
I've got things to see and people to do.
 
mdl21483
Posts: 157
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:35 am

Jetstars are frequent visitors to the Houston skies, be it KIAH, KHOU, KSGR, KIWS, or KGLS. Same with the remaining Sabreliners and Commanders. the mexican consulate's jetstar comes up this way almost every month...

keep checking Flight Aware on the status of each if they've filed an IFR flightplan:

[b]Lockheed Jetstar 8 (L29A) or Lockheed Jetstar 2 (L29B)

At the time of this post, this Jetstar2 was enroute KSDL - KIAD (isn't N65JT Travolta's?)

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others of interest:
North American Rockwell Sabreliner (T39)
From the shores of the sea we have come afar, we have risen high, among the stars.
 
L1329II
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting MDL21483 (Reply 16):
At the time of this post, this Jetstar2 was enroute KSDL - KIAD (isn't N65JT Travolta's?)

It may have been. I dont think JT ever owned a Jetstar 2. I know he had a 731 Jetstar a while ago. He doesnt have one now does he?
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
slider
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:15 am

Mario Andretti owns one.

Tail number is N500MA. Big grin
 
jetstar
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:38 pm

Quoting L1329II (Reply 13):
John Travolta had one (N155AV) Kenny Rogers had one too

Before Kenny Rogers upgraded to a JetStar, he owned a DH 125-1A corporate jet from about 1978 to 1980. When he did get the JetStar he put his DH125 up for sale. When the company I worked for decided to do a major refurbishment of our JetStar, which included redoing the interior, new paint and overhauling all 4 engines, to keep replacement costs down, instead of leasing another JetStar for the almost 3 months that our airplane was going to be out of service they decided to lease a DH125 because it was cheaper to lease. The best deal the company could find was Kenny Rogers DH125, which was sitting idle at LAX. I had offered to go to LAX and look over this airplane, but before we sent the JetStar out, we did at home a major airframe inspection and had an outside company come in and do a wing plank inspection. This took over 2 weeks and the company wanted me to stay with the JetStar, so they took the word of the salesman from the aircraft broker who had the airplane for sale and handled the lease and said that the airplane was in fine shape.

After we leased the airplane and brought it back east, we realized this airplane had seen better days, the interior smelled of mold because the emergency hatch leaked water into the interior, the brakes were worn out and the fuel tanks had water in them from bad fuel cap gaskets, to list some of the problems. It turned out the airplane had sat at LAX for over 7 months outside including the winter rainy season while it was for sale. Kenny Rogers at the time had no chief of maintenance or flight department manager, his head of security was responsible for the airplane and we had to deal with him for all the problems. We did not ever talk to Kenny Rogers himself and I am sure he had no problems with this airplane when he operated it. Most of the problems occurred after he took the airplane out of service and put it up for sale and let it sit outside for all this time. I blame the aircraft broker for letting the airplane get as bad as it was, he should have gone into the airplane every once and a while to make sure it was ok.

To make a long story short, it took us a while to get this airplane cleaned up and fit for our executives and we gladly returned it to him when our JetStar was returned to service. Between traveling back and forth to Florida to oversee the JetStar refurbishment, which was another ongoing nightmare in progress, and working on this DH125 back home, I was totally burned out and needed a vacation away from airplanes so I took a cruise on the SS Norway.

I few years later while landing on a TWA flight to LAX we landed on the right side runways, I believe 25R and on approach I recognized the airplane sitting in the Northrop School of Aviation off of one of the side streets near the airport. It was still painted in the brown and tan colors that it had when we had the airplane, so it was easy to recognize.

After seeing the airplane I asked around and I heard that after the airplane was returned to him, it went through a major inspection and excessive corrosion was found in the fuel tanks, and with all the other problems it had he decided to donate it to the Northrop School of Aviation and take the tax write off instead of putting a lot of money into an old airplane.

I believe it is still there at the school, has anyone in the LAX area seen this airplane recently.

Just another day or two in the life of a former corporate chief of maintenance.
 
leothedog
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:04 pm

Quoting Jetstar (Reply 19):
Before Kenny Rogers upgraded to a JetStar, he owned a DH 125-1A corporate jet

What's a DH 125-1A?
I've got things to see and people to do.
 
jetstar
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting Leothedog (Reply 20):
What's a DH 125-1A?

In the mid 1960’s DeHavilland designed and built a 6-8 passenger corporate jet and it was called the DH-125. This airplane competed with the Falcon 20, Jet Commander, LearJets and the JetStar for the corporate aircraft market


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Later on DeHavilland merged with some other companies and became Hawker Siddeley, so the airplane was now called the HS 125. Hawker Siddeley entered an agreement with Beechcraft in the US to market and service the airplane, and it was renamed the BH 125 for Beechcraft Hawker in the North American market. This agreement lasted only a few years and during this time Hawker Siddeley again merged with other companies and was known as British Aerospace. When BA took the marketing back the airplane was then renamed the BA 125. In the late 1980’s BA sold the rights to the airplane to Raytheon, production was moved to Wichita Kansas and was renamed the Raytheon Hawker.

The airplane is still in production as the Raytheon Hawker 800 and is one of the longer production runs of any airplane, over 40 years. During this time the airplane has been updated numerous times and newer fan engines replaced the old noisy engines.

These is also a re-engine program that replaces the old British engines with the TFE 731 engine, basically the same engine used on the JetStar update program and the newer JetStar 2’s. The same engine was also used to re-engine the Falcon 20.
 
leothedog
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:27 am

Jetstar,
Thank you for your response. I tried to find the plane in the picture database, but was unsuccessful.

I find your detailed history of the jetstar very interesting.
I've got things to see and people to do.
 
avroarrow
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:10 am

I got this one in Vegas 3 years ago, it might be the Mexican government one you referred to, but I don't know. I remember taking the pic and starting to walk away just as the pilot fired up one of the inboard engines with a beautiful red and bluish flame coming out of the back. Likely only visible due to it being night time. I also remember wishing that I had waited a second longer before taking the pic so I could have got the flames as well. Oh well, thats the way it goes sometimes.

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Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
 
Dazed767
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:20 am

Chi Chi Rodriguez

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Discount Tire

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JWT Aircraft Holdings

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And don't forget Elvis had one!

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thomasphoto60
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:46 am

If memory serves, I saw an episode of "Big Boy's Toys" on the History Channel some month back and one of the topics featured Micheal Dorn (Lt Worf, Star Trek TNG fame) who owned a vintage early 60s era Jetstar.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 25):
If memory serves, I saw an episode of "Big Boy's Toys" on the History Channel some month back and one of the topics featured Micheal Dorn (Lt Worf, Star Trek TNG fame) who owned a vintage early 60s era Jetstar.

He owns a North American T-39B. This was the aircraft that the Jetstar was competing with for a military contract to be a new VIP transport. The Jetstar was chosen, and the T-39 became a navigational trainer. North American also built several for the Civilian world, which we know as the Saberliner (due in part to the fact it had the wings of the F-86.
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
jetstar
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 26):
He owns a North American T-39B. This was the aircraft that the Jetstar was competing with for a military contract to be a new VIP transport. The Jetstar was chosen, and the T-39 became a navigational trainer. North American also built several for the Civilian world, which we know as the Saberliner (due in part to the fact it had the wings of the F-86.

Lockheed and North American Aviation (NAA) were selected by the USAF to design a light utility transport. Kelly Johnson of the skunk works fame at Lockheed was given the project and he designed the JetStar. The proposal from the USAF was for over 100 airplanes.

Lockheed was initially awarded the contract, but do to politics, NAA was given the final contract and built over 100 T39’s. To appease Lockheed, the USAF ordered 16 JetStars, but allowed Lockheed to sell some of them to the civilian market before the USAF took delivery of their JetStar’s. The Saberliners were given the “T” designation for trainer, but almost all were used as light transports. They were eventually retired and replaced by LearJets. The JetStar’s were given the designation C-140 to supposedly differentiate their mission from the Saberliners, they were eventually replaced by Gulfstreams.


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NAA had to complete their contract run of airplanes before they were allowed to sell them in the civilian market. In the civilian market they are known as the NA-265 Saberliner and its stretched cousin, the NA-305 Saberliner. The Saberliner was derived from the F-100 Super Sabre fighter jet, itself a derivative of the F-86 Saberjet.

In the late 1970’s I knew a pilot of a corporate Saberliner who previously was an instructor pilot in the USAF on T-39’s and at the time was the highest time Saberliner pilot, civilian or military with over 9000 hours in the Sabreliner. He told me that because of its fighter heritage the airplane was so strong he felt the airframe was capable of exceeding the speed of sound, but he doubted the engines and engine pylons would stay on the airplane. I saw some pictures of a USAF T-39 that crashed on takeoff in Germany after ingesting birds. The airplane crashed into a forest off the end of the runway and the wings just cut the trees in half, the pilots survived with minor injuries.

I did work on some corporate Saberliners and I could tell you they were built like a tank. The smaller Saberliner with the more powerful P&W JT12-8 with 3300 pounds of thrust per engine flew like a rocket. A lot of pilots used to pull the over speed warning circuit breaker in cruise because it was capable of faster speeds than certified, but you didn’t hear it from me. The military had the less powerful –6 engines with 3000 pounds of thrust per engine and in the military the engines were called J-60’s, but they were exactly the same as the civilian engines except for the data plate.

One interesting feature of the Sabreliners, which it inherited from its fighter cousins were the leading edge slats. There is no control over them, they deployed only by aerodynamic pressure when the aircraft slows down. Also there is no connection between the left and right side it was not uncommon in a tight turn for one to deploy and the other stay up. Another feature which it shared with the JetStar was the military requirement to be able to jettison fuel. These airplanes are the only corporate jets to this day able to dump fuel.

Back in the days when S&H green stamps were the rage, FBO’s gave green stamps to the pilots when they purchased fuel in the same amount that you got when buying groceries. Most corporations required them to be turned into the flight department to be used for purchasing items for the office, but some companies let the pilots keep the green stamps. I knew some sabreliner pilots for a certain corporation who would intentionally dump some fuel to increase the fuel purchase and get more stamps. The chief pilot found out about this and stuck a green stamp next to the fuel dump switch with the warning that they would be fired if he found out they did it again.
 
leothedog
Posts: 113
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RE: Lockheed Jetstar - Any Still In Private Service?

Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:48 pm

Quoting Jetstar (Reply 27):
The chief pilot found out about this and stuck a green stamp next to the fuel dump switch with the warning that they would be fired if he found out they did it again.

Don't stop. Keep writing. More stories, please.
I've got things to see and people to do.

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