aeropiggot
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Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:03 am

More pressure from LUV on Boeing to develop the 737 sucessor sooner rather than later....

Southwest Chairman Herb Kelleher wants Boeing to take the technology used on its 787 aircraft and apply it to a new 737 sooner rather than later.

The airline's 447 737s comprise about 10% of the global fleet of the aircraft type, according to Boeing, and the airframer plans to deliver 33 planes to Southwest this year.

Kelleher told attendees at the annual FAA forecast conference yesterday in Washington that Southwest intends "to keep buying planes from Boeing." He touted the technology on the 787 as "splendid," highlighting the aircraft's fuel efficiency and easy maintenance.

"The faster Boeing can transfer those characteristics to its narrowbody planes, Kelleher said, "the happier we will be."

Boeing might take notice of the request of its largest 737 customer. VP-Marketing Randy Baseler wrote in an entry on his blog late last year that while Boeing is looking at options for the future of its single-aisle planes, the time for a new breed of that aircraft is "still a ways off," and he noted that "there's no pressure from airlines to find a successor to it."

Baseler said breakthroughs in fuel consumption and operating costs on a new aircraft would need to be superior to current plane models to warrant the infrastructure costs associated with a new single-aisle aircraft type."
A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:06 am

Engines are still going to have the biggest impact on efficiency, though a wider, lighter structure will have it's advantages, to be sure.
 
andessmf
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
highlighting the aircraft's fuel efficiency and easy maintenance

Like I previously posted, fuel consumption is a consideration for airplanes, but other things may be added to make the airplane more efficient in other ways. Many years ago, there were discussions to make airplan technology more 'off the shelf', to say that certain items are easily and cheaply obtained. This is what I call the 'Home Depot' effect. In construction, the field I work, there are now many items that are stock items, easily available, and therefore cheap. Custom items (like airplane parts) are more expensive and may take many weeks for fabrication and delivery. If airplane maintenance moves towards this construction idea, parts inventory and management may become easier and cheaper. Herb is essentially making this point by saying easy maintenance is a selling factor.
 
aeronut
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:56 am

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 2):
Like I previously posted, fuel consumption is a consideration for airplanes, but other things may be added to make the airplane more efficient in other ways. Many years ago, there were discussions to make airplan technology more 'off the shelf', to say that certain items are easily and cheaply obtained. This is what I call the 'Home Depot' effect. In construction, the field I work, there are now many items that are stock items, easily available, and therefore cheap. Custom items (like airplane parts) are more expensive and may take many weeks for fabrication and delivery. If airplane maintenance moves towards this construction idea, parts inventory and management may become easier and cheaper. Herb is essentially making this point by saying easy maintenance is a selling factor.

True, but I think you'll find fuel costs are probably a more important factor and cost driver for running an airline.
 
andessmf
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:07 pm

Quoting Aeronut (Reply 3):
True, but I think you'll find fuel costs are probably a more important factor and cost driver for running an airline.

Perhaps I should clarify myself, fuel consumption is very important, but there are other places to also look to for more efficiency of the airplane.
 
abba
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:20 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 4):
Perhaps I should clarify myself, fuel consumption is very important, but there are other places to also look to for more efficiency of the airplane.

How big is the difference in maintaining a second generation 737 compared to the 737NG? I believe I have read the figure somewhere and it was surprisingly big. Anyone know?

Abba
 
Slovacek747
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:27 am

My advice... Do what WN wants!! Very few customers are as loyal as them...

Slovacek747
 
planemaker
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:06 pm

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 2):
Like I previously posted, fuel consumption is a consideration for airplanes, but other things may be added to make the airplane more efficient in other ways.



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 4):
Perhaps I should clarify myself, fuel consumption is very important, but there are other places to also look to for more efficiency of the airplane.

Here is another concept for cost saving considerations... Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
seanp11
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:07 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
Here is another concept for cost saving considerations... Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.

I doubt that the FAA will ever allow that.
 
andessmf
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:44 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
Here is another concept for cost saving considerations... Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.

Congratulations on a very insightful post...

Yeah, why even make it a dual engine when one could do the job??
 
redflyer
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
Here is another concept for cost saving considerations... Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.

Congratulations on a very insightful post...

Yeah, why even make it a dual engine when one could do the job??

And why not just hand out piddle-packs to each of the passengers? The space normally reserved for lavs could then be fitted with a few more extra seats.  Wink
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
andessmf
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:00 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 10):
And why not just hand out piddle-packs to each of the passengers? The space normally reserved for lavs could then be fitted with a few more extra seats.

Wait for the check from FR for such an excellent idea!  Wink

Thanks for the laugh
 
zvezda
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:42 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.

That's not a bad idea. Many newer private jets are certified for single-pilot operation. Certainly the first airliner to be certified for single-pilot operation would be a narrow-body.

Quoting Seanp11 (Reply 8):

I doubt that the FAA will ever allow that.

The future lasts a long time. Someday the FAA will allow single-pilot operation of airliners just as they already do with some other jets. Perhaps initially, it will be allowed only for flights of two hours or less.
 
seanp11
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:20 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
The future lasts a long time. Someday the FAA will allow single-pilot operation of airliners just as they already do with some other jets. Perhaps initially, it will be allowed only for flights of two hours or less.

The technology exists today, but there's a good reason why airliners are flown by two pilots--redundancy. Not only redundancy for if the pilot were to get sick or die, but also in the decision process. Two minds are better than one. It is one thing to have a sole pilot in a private aircraft, but it is another thing when you got a hundred paying passengers in the back.
 
andessmf
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:27 pm

Quoting Seanp11 (Reply 13):
but there's a good reason why airliners are flown by two pilots--redundancy

We have a winner!! That is the reason why airliners will never choose single pilot operation.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:48 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):

We have a winner!! That is the reason why airliners will never choose single pilot operation.

I do wonder if we might see a pilot serving double duty in the cabin.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
planemaker
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:08 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 15):
I do wonder if we might see a pilot serving double duty in the cabin.

That could be a first step in the commercial passenger arena. However, I see cargo jets going down to a single pilot first followed by your scenario.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Yeah, why even make it a dual engine when one could do the job??

Your response makes as much sense as someone suggesting that we go back to a 3-man crew and 4-engines on all aircraft.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
pavlin
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):
We have a winner!! That is the reason why airliners will never choose single pilot operation.

Obviously you have never flown small jets. Or did you have?
1 pilot is enough
 
andessmf
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:53 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16):
Your response makes as much sense as someone suggesting that we go back to a 3-man crew and 4-engines on all aircraft.

Ummm...sarcasm...

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 17):
Obviously you have never flown small jets. Or did you have?
1 pilot is enough

Yes, but this is apples and oranges, small airplanes and airliners are covered under different set of rules. You dont usually have flight attendant on small jets either, and airlines will not get rid of them...yet! (that last word was sarcasm again, but if MOL hears of it...)
 
planemaker
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:17 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 18):
Ummm...sarcasm...

The sarcasm was obvious and doesn't make any sense.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
A319XFW
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:41 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
Here is another concept for cost saving considerations... Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.

Congratulations on a very insightful post...

Yeah, why even make it a dual engine when one could do the job??

You take a perfectly serious post and try and ridicule it (perhaps without any background knowledge)

So where do we start? Perhaps with military aviation.
We slowly going from 1-2 crew cockpits to unmanned UAV's and UCAV's. A few (2?) aircraft are controlled from the ground by ground controllers and don't have pilots in them and they have aquired targets and fired missiles and droppedbombs on them.

In the civilian aviation:
There was a test recently done by DLR/University of Braunschweig (can't remember exactly which) where an un-piloted aircraft (VFW-614?) flew and landed safely at Manching airbase. The air traffic controllers were not told this was an unmanned (with pilots in the cabin as safety backup) flight and treated it as any other (I can't find the link but it was either in the Aero International or Flug Revue). So it is possible.
Current problems include air traffic management and passenger perception flying on an aircraft with one pilot/no pilots.

That is why I agree that it will first be seen on a freighter and not a passenger jet.
 
wnsocal
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:56 pm

I thought this thread was about Kellerher and the 787 technology?
Airline Nut
 
zvezda
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:48 pm

Technologies we may see in Y1:
- Fuselage in 3 composite sections (vs 8 sections for the B787)
- Engines with SFC below 0.5
- Fuel cell APU
- Electric (rather than pneumatic) systems
- Large windows
- 6000 foot cabin altitude
- Greater use of composites (fewer metal parts)
- HUD avionics

What else?
 
aeropiggot
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:20 am

Quote:
Slovacek747: My advice... Do what WN wants!! Very few customers are as loyal as them...

Well Guys as you may have now heard, it seems that Boeing as accelerated the 737 replacement studies. Boeing Firms Up 737 Replacement Studies. (by WINGS Mar 2 2006 in Civil Aviation) So they are listening....lets all wait for the Airbus response..(may be they will just install the new 737X engines on the current A320)....  

[Edited 2006-03-02 16:25:36]
A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
 
zvezda
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 73

Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 23):
lets all wait for the Airbus response..(may be they will just install the new 737X engines on the current A320)

I think Airbus can be counted on to more than just change the A320's engines. Airbus will probably either produce an all-new composite-fuselage design or renovate the A320 with about the same scope as the B737 -> B737NG or A330 -> A350 renovation.
 
andessmf
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 20):

You take a perfectly serious post and try and ridicule it

Previously to the thread descending into some problems, I was stating that there were other things besides fuel economy that could be utilized in the NGs to make them more efficient.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
Here is another concept for cost saving considerations... Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.


That is were it started to descend into a little chaos.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
What else?

What about a fuselage wide enough to allow 2x2x2 seating? Do you guys think allowing the passengers to enter and leave the plane quickly could be more economical?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 25):
What about a fuselage wide enough to allow 2x2x2 seating? Do you guys think allowing the passengers to enter and leave the plane quickly could be more economical?

i could see single class airlines doing 2-2-2 if there is room, and 2 class airlines sticking with 2-2/3-3. With six rails for mounting seat structure, this could easily be achieved.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
PlaneDane
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
Technologies we may see in Y1:
- Fuselage in 3 composite sections (vs 8 sections for the B787)
- Engines with SFC below 0.5
- Fuel cell APU
- Electric (rather than pneumatic) systems
- Large windows
- 6000 foot cabin altitude
- Greater use of composites (fewer metal parts)
- HUD avionics

What else?

Raked wingtips? I'm not sure...

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 25):
What about a fuselage wide enough to allow 2x2x2 seating? Do you guys think allowing the passengers to enter and leave the plane quickly could be more economical?

Yes, I thought that two aisles is planned for the B737 replacement as well.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 27):
Raked wingtips? I'm not sure...

Likely for the longer range versions of the larger jets (757 replacement, 738/9 replacement), and possibly on the BBJNG 736/73G replacement.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
texan
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 25):
What about a fuselage wide enough to allow 2x2x2 seating? Do you guys think allowing the passengers to enter and leave the plane quickly could be more economical?

In terms of time, yes, but the extra dimensions added to the aircraft would increase the weight and fuel burn. It would also increase the amount of parts on the airplane, increasing maintenance costs, however incrementally. Basically, while it would increase customer comfort, it would increase costs in most other areas over the current narrowbody design, making a net increase in costs. Therefore, this is unlikely to occur.

As for using the 787 technology on the 737, Kelleher stated last year that if Boeing had a 737-type airplane with the new technology, WN would order a large amount of airplanes (I think his exact quote was at least 200, but am unsure). It would also likely be well received by other airlines looking to reduce costs and renew their short- to mid-range fleets. Boeing has likely been considering this option for a decent amount of time.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
zvezda
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 73

Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 25):
What about a fuselage wide enough to allow 2x2x2 seating? Do you guys think allowing the passengers to enter and leave the plane quickly could be more economical?

One wide aisle allows faster embarkation and disembarkation than two narrow aisles. Two narrow aisles will both get blocked. One wide aisle will not get blocked -- except by very large passengers.
 
planemaker
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 25):
Previously to the thread descending into some problems, I was stating that there were other things besides fuel economy that could be utilized in the NGs to make them more efficient.

Without agreeing with me, it is too bad that you are unable to simply acknowledge the possibility of a single-pilot 737 (as others have done - in agreement and not in agreement.)

Aside from "fuel economy," it is the single one "other things" which would make the 737 substantially more "efficient."

If you would only stop for a minute to look at the economics, you would perhaps realize that a single-pilot 737 would save an airline like SWA hundreds of millions of dollars annually.

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 25):
That is were it started to descend into a little chaos.

Which you precipitated, as others have noticed, because...

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 20):
You take a perfectly serious post and try and ridicule it (perhaps without any background knowledge)

Next time all you have to do when you disagree with someone is simply post a cogent rebuttal on "why" you don't agree... instead of descending into unsupported ridicule.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
andessmf
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 31):
If you would only stop for a minute to look at the economics, you would perhaps realize that a single-pilot 737 would save an airline like SWA hundreds of millions of dollars annually.



Quoting Seanp11 (Reply 13):
The technology exists today, but there's a good reason why airliners are flown by two pilots--redundancy.

Eliminate a pilot and you have no backup, here in my company we spend thousands of dollars to maintain adequate backup of all our resources. Business often have good backup plans to avoid catastrophe. In my many years of reading and observing the aviation industry, this suggestion has never been made.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
Here is another concept for cost saving considerations... Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.

Therefore, your suggestion for a single pilot operation was (perhaps wrongly) assumed by me to be a non-starter. WN has never suggested single pilot operation.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 31):
Next time all you have to do when you disagree with someone is simply post a cogent rebuttal on "why" you don't agree... instead of descending into unsupported ridicule.



Quoting Seanp11 (Reply 13):
The technology exists today, but there's a good reason why airliners are flown by two pilots--redundancy.

I did post a rebuttal by agreeing to the above post.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):

Yeah, why even make it a dual engine when one could do the job??

To me, if you go so far as to eliminate a pilot, the next logical step is to eliminate an engine. And the chances of that happening are essentially zero. My basis for saying that? Never heard of either of those suggestions until this post.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 30):
One wide aisle allows faster embarkation and disembarkation than two narrow aisles. Two narrow aisles will both get blocked. One wide aisle will not get blocked -- except by very large passengers.

It will also allow those who insist on bringing 21" wide (instead of long) rollaboards and/or everything they bought on vacation in a dozen bags to quickly get down the aisle without "hanging-up" on passengers and seats.
 
A319XFW
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 32):
Eliminate a pilot and you have no backup, here in my company we spend thousands of dollars to maintain adequate backup of all our resources. Business often have good backup plans to avoid catastrophe. In my many years of reading and observing the aviation industry, this suggestion has never been made.

It's all about efficiency. Once you can get the reliability up, why have something that will fail under 10e-9 or so, when you can have a computer and one pilot to do the same job as 2.

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 32):
To me, if you go so far as to eliminate a pilot, the next logical step is to eliminate an engine. And the chances of that happening are essentially zero. My basis for saying that? Never heard of either of those suggestions until this post.

You can already eliminate a pilot/both pilots (see UAV's).
You would need a very large engine for a 100 seater and somehow have it along the centreline of the aircraft.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 22):
Fuselage in 3 composite sections (vs 8 sections for the B787)

Depending on how you define the fuselage, I'd say it'd be 5 - nose section, forward fuselage, centre fuselage (above wing), rear fuselage and rear section behind pressure bulkhead.

That way you avoid making too large a section with different cross-section, form.
 
andessmf
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 34):
It's all about efficiency. Once you can get the reliability up, why have something that will fail under 10e-9 or so, when you can have a computer and one pilot to do the same job as 2.

Ah, crap! I see where it is a possibility. I'm getting old, cause that technology I dont like.
 
planemaker
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 32):
Never heard of either of those suggestions until this post.

Just because you hadn't heard that suggestion before still doesn't give you any basis to "ridicule" it.

BTW, the only thing novel about my suggestion might be the time frame... it may be too soon. And I am not being original... Boeing Senior VP, Allen Haggerty, gave a lecture at MIT a few years ago and he explicitly said that commercial airliners will eventually go to a one man crew... the technology already exists.

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 32):
I did post a rebuttal by agreeing to the above post.

Ah, yes... but only after you had already ridiculed my post when there was no need to.

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 32):
To me, if you go so far as to eliminate a pilot, the next logical step is to eliminate an engine. And the chances of that happening are essentially zero. My basis for saying that? Never heard of either of those suggestions until this post.

You are not too familiar with the "state-of-the-art" in aviation technology.

FYI, in the very near future, it will be the size of the engine that would inhibit using only a single engine on an airliner. Already, CFM has said that the next gen engines for the 737 will not fit under the wings.

Regarding my "suggestion"... it is already debated that the 2 pilots are, in many cases, dual "back-ups" to the "computers" that are flying the plane.
The latest 737's are just as easy to pilot, if not even easier, than all current single-pilot biz jets. There is no technological barrier to next gen 737s being offered with a single-pilot "option".
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
ikramerica
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 34):
Depending on how you define the fuselage, I'd say it'd be 5 - nose section, forward fuselage,

on a plane of this size you could likely condense it into maximum of 4. Nose and forward section as 1 (which can grow with model), center section (which is model specific), rear section (again, grows with model), tail section, which is model specific.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
zvezda
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 73

Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 32):

Eliminate a pilot and you have no backup

No, the backup is that the aircraft lands itself on a preselected runway.

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 32):
To me, if you go so far as to eliminate a pilot, the next logical step is to eliminate an engine. And the chances of that happening are essentially zero.

There are now single-engine bizjets.

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 34):
You would need a very large engine for a 100 seater and somehow have it along the centreline of the aircraft.

I think the thrust centreline issue is the biggest reason why the B737RS will have two engines.

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 34):

Depending on how you define the fuselage, I'd say it'd be 5 - nose section, forward fuselage, centre fuselage (above wing), rear fuselage and rear section behind pressure bulkhead.

Okay, 4 if you count the empenage as a fuselage section. I expect the nose and forward fuselage to be a single section. At most, there will be (not counting the empenage) a fixed-length nose, centre section, and tail section, with variable-length simple sections forward and aft of the centre section depending on the model.
 
andessmf
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RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 36):

Just because you hadn't heard that suggestion before still doesn't give you any basis to "ridicule" it.

So I wrongly assumed you were joking, I apologize for that. Single pilot operation? I think it was a knee-jerk reaction to something that I find unreal, but I do now see how it could happen. Maybe in time I will feel more comfortable with that suggestion.

And no, I'm not a luddite. I do run the IT dept. in my office. I have built computers and servers from scratch, ran LINUX on our server for 272 days w/o a glitch (restarted the server) and later today will go to a meeting regarding the latest upgrades to our servers (win2003). Plus I work on and customize the CAD system for our office.

Great, thanks for making feel silly over the pilot thing, perhaps I didnt see it coming. I apologize again.
 
planemaker
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 39):
So I wrongly assumed you were joking, I apologize for that. Single pilot operation? I think it was a knee-jerk reaction to something that I find unreal, but I do now see how it could happen. Maybe in time I will feel more comfortable with that suggestion.

Thank you for the apology. All that I ever look for is reasoned discourse.

Your point about "feeling more comfortable" about a single-pilot 737 will naturally be echoed by many... and thus I don't see it happening with a large carrier until perhaps +2020... 5-8 years after the EIS of the next gen 737.

However, that doesn't preclude Boeing from certifying the next gen 737 with a single-pilot option so that some (smaller) airlines could adopt single-pilot ops earlier.

There certainly is a compelling economic reason to do so. Using SWA as an example, they have approx. 5,000+ pilots. If you cut the roster in half, with an estimated average annual salary of $170k, SWA could save over $425-million in direct salary costs. Add in all the other related costs (per diems, training, medical, HR, etc., etc.) and you are looking at over half a billion dollars in annual savings.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 11):
Wait for the check from FR for such an excellent idea!

If this option is offered in the next gen 737, I certainly wouldn't put it past FR to be one of the first to adopt single-pilot ops.

BTW, O'Leary has stated that FR is aiming to "give away" around +20% of their seats annually within the next couple of years. If you look at the time frame for EIS (2012-15), with this option, FR could possibly "give away" +50% of their seats.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:21 am

The only real glitch I see in single pilot operations is the requirement for more automation for the ATC system. But that is a different can of worms!
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 41):
The only real glitch I see in single pilot operations is the requirement for more automation for the ATC system. But that is a different can of worms!

The ATC system will be significantly upgraded by nex gen 737 EIS. However, the required automation will reside in the aircraft much more than in the ATC system.

You may be interested in looking at what Boeing was already offering, or had in the pipeline, on the 737 in 2002...

Next-Generation 737 Technology

In March 2002, Boeing unveiled its Technology Demonstrator airplane. The aircraft, a 737-900, was outfitted with a suite of new and emerging flight deck technologies that promise to enhance safety, capacity and operational efficiency.

These leading-edge technologies -- nine in all -- demonstrate Boeing's global leadership in creating airplanes that reduce noise, enhance safety, decrease flight delays, and improve the ease of operation and efficiency of pilots in the flight deck. These technologies include:

Quiet Climb System (QCS)

Vertical Situation Display (VSD)

Integrated Approach Navigation (IAN)

GPS Landing System (GLS)

Head-Up Display (HUD)

Surface Guidance System (SGS)

Enhanced Vision System (EVS)

Synthetic Vision System (SVS)

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737family/pf/pf_tech1.html


"The Next-Generation 737 is one of the best, if not THE best aircraft in the world in terms of technology," said Capt. Steve Knudsen, Virgin Blue's Flight Operations technical manager. "The new Vertical Situation Display provides pilots with yet another tool to monitor the aircraft's flight path. It is a valuable safety enhancement."

"VSD should enable us to shrink the air space between airplanes and increase air space capacity because you can count on airplanes being exactly where they are supposed to be. And if we can move airplanes through air space more efficiently, we can add more flights and passengers will have more choices," Craig said.

Another flight deck system that enhances the ability of the pilot to monitor the precise position of an airplane and its relation to the desired flight path is called Navigation Performance Scales (NPS). The system incorporates global positioning satellite technology to pinpoint and display the precise position of the airplane in an easily understood graphical display.

Boeing 737 Chief Pilot Ray Craig views critical flight information on the transparent glass Head-Up Display (HUD), which is positioned between the pilot's eye and the flight deck window. The technology can eliminate flight cancellations, diversions and delays caused by restricted visibility, and it allows a pilot to keep his or her eye "on the road," rather than looking down at the instrument panels.

Think of a traffic lane in the sky. NPS can tell you how close you are to the edge of the lane within 15 feet. With such accuracy, an airplane can safely navigate through crowded skies, mountainous terrain and noise sensitive areas. Like VSD, the NPS also opens up air space around airports.

"We're setting a new standard for graphic depiction and situation awareness," Hiebert added. "When the world goes to a tighter airspace system, you don't want pilots trying to figure out the airplane's position while moving at 450 knots. While you're trying to calculate that, you can move miles. NPS can tell you where you are instantly."


http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/feature/737tech.html
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein

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