RichardPrice
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Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:35 am

A study by Cargenie Mellon University researchers has found that cell phones and other devices can interfere with cockpit instruments and cause dangerous situations, although they do admit that there hasnt been a documented case where this has happened yet.

Thoughts?

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06060/662669.stm
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:01 am

I thought I heard that passengers would soon be able to use cell phones on flights- signal transmits to an antenna on the a/c which relays the signal to the ground network.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:02 am

keep the ban....its bad enough as it is.
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N766UA
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:38 am

I use cell phones while flying Cessnas and we use the same instrumentation as the jetliners, for the most part. Although granted the big jets have much more complex systems. I think it's a load of crap but it doesn't matter, cell phones don't work on fast-moving high-flying airliners anyway.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
I think it's a load of crap but it doesn't matter, cell phones don't work on fast-moving high-flying airliners anyway.

First of all if a cellphone is on it can cause interference regardless of whether it is actually connected to a base station.

Secondly, in flight cell phone use would entail a base station on the airliner.

Thirdly, if cell phone use is permitted, I would like quiet zones where it is prohibited, just like on many trains.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
N766UA
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
Thirdly, if cell phone use is permitted, I would like quiet zones where it is prohibited, just like on many trains.

Heck with that, they shouldn't be permitted at all. I've been in the terminal 3 gates away from some girl on her phone and I can hear her every word!
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cpos
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:50 am

I'm not in favor of cell phones on airliners. From my heavy experience taking Amtrak from Boston to NY, the trains have become moving conference rooms. The Quiet car works to a point....but it forces the conductors to be policemen. I enjoy flying so much more because I don't need to listen to Bob's conference call and Jill arguing with her Mother about her boyfriend.

Just imagine sitting on a 737 in 15B between two cell phone crazy PAX. Ugg.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 5):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
Thirdly, if cell phone use is permitted, I would like quiet zones where it is prohibited, just like on many trains.

Heck with that, they shouldn't be permitted at all. I've been in the terminal 3 gates away from some girl on her phone and I can hear her every word!

You have a point. But with all the background noise you won't hear her that clearly on a plane. Then again, that probably means she'll just yell louder. Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
KELPkid
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
I use cell phones while flying Cessnas and we use the same instrumentation as the jetliners, for the most part. Although granted the big jets have much more complex systems. I think it's a load of crap but it doesn't matter, cell phones don't work on fast-moving high-flying airliners anyway.

My Nokia GSM (T-Mobile) definitely causes harmful interference in the Cessnas that I fly...mostly over the headset audio (a funny "buzzing" sound). I definitely wouldn't want to be IFR in IMC with the thing on.
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PanAm747
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:53 am

The real danger from cell phones is users who think they can multi-task but cannot.

The real annoyance is from people who cannot accept the fact that the rest of the world does NOT want to hear their conversation!!

If you think passengers are on edge now, just wait until they have to listen to someone's "important" call for an hour...  banghead 

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asgeirs
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:36 am

I'm in favor of keeping the in-flight cellphone ban, mostly because of the annoyance that would be caused if everyone would be talking on the phone.

If every passenger on a plane had their cellphones turned on, then they might have some unwanted effect on the aircraft's systems. However, I don't think that a handful would do any harm. Look at it this way - On each flight there is probably usually at least one person who forgets to turn his cellphone off or doesn't know how to do it correctly - and there have no incidents (yet) been traced to cellphones being turned on.
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raffik
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:41 am

I cannot imagine anything worse than being on a flight with the person beside me having a conversation on their mobile.. the constant polyphonic ring tones going off all around the cabin.. text messages the lot! Nightmare.

I have noticed that alot of US airliners have phones in every centre seat- as far as I'm aware, this is not done at all in Europe, apart from inseat phones in J on 777/747/340. Any ideas why this didn't catch on in Europe?
- Alec
 
fly727
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
I use cell phones while flying Cessnas

I don't want to discourage you from doing so, specially on a Cessna-kind of aircraft. It is a very useful extra resource that comes pretty handy when things go wrong.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
I use cell phones while flying Cessnas and we use the same instrumentation as the jetliners, for the most part.

No. For the most part, what you share with a new generation airliner is the guys you talk on the radio to. Not much more. I have experienced complete ILS localizer deflection and glideslope false beams thanks to some idiot using the cell phone back there. And this was on an aircraft (oldie 737-200) which is closer to share some instrumentation with your airplane.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
I think it's a load of crap but it doesn't matter, cell phones don't work on fast-moving high-flying airliners anyway.

As a matter of fact they COULD work. The technology used before GSM could often get signal over large cities.

And it's not a load of crap. It is the law. As a pilot you might find interesting the following review on Hazardous Attitudes (part of your CRM training):

Hazardous Thinking/Antidote:

a. Invulnerability - Denial, "It can't happen to me."
Start thinking about the unthinkable.

b. "Can Do" - Macho attitude (Risk taking to impress others.)
Recognize risk taking as foolish behavior.

c. Impulsivity - "Do something fast!"
Stop! Think! Select the "best" course of action.

d. Anti-authority - "Don't tell me what to do."
Follow the rules. They are often right.

e. Resignation - "What's the use? Nothing I do makes any difference."
"You CAN make a difference."

RM  Wink Keep the blue side up!
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
QXatFAT
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:57 am

Keep the ban. You have to deal with everyones loud phone calls and annoying 15 year old gals drama. I dont want to hear this on a plane. Please...keep the ban.
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cio666
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:22 pm

Keep the ban! Can you imagine trying to watch an in-flight movie while half the plane is loudly talking on cell phones? Allowing cell phone use on crowded airliners would certainly lead to an increase in air rage incidents and passenger vs. passenger confrontations. In-flight fist-fighting over cell phone etiquitte could become quite a passenger/flight crew safety issue.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting CIO666 (Reply 14):
Keep the ban! Can you imagine trying to watch an in-flight movie while half the plane is loudly talking on cell phones? Allowing cell phone use on crowded airliners would certainly lead to an increase in air rage incidents and passenger vs. passenger confrontations. In-flight fist-fighting over cell phone etiquitte could become quite a passenger/flight crew safety issue.

I could care less about the conversations. But I don't want to hear a hundred annoying ring tones.
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edelag
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:48 pm

Didn't the victims of Sep 11, use their cellphones while mid flight, and I did not hear that their attitude or altitude instruments went off.

And on a flight I took on a Rayethon 800XP I forgot to turn off my cellphone and I did not crash and I did land an ILS approach to MTY.
It's not just the destination, it's the journey.
 
fly727
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting Edelag (Reply 16):
And on a flight I took on a Rayethon 800XP I forgot to turn off my cellphone and I did not crash and I did land an ILS approach to MTY.

You did? 13-15 years according to your profile... Boy, and I thought Doogie Howser was a genius.

Quoting Edelag (Reply 16):
Didn't the victims of Sep 11, use their cellphones while mid flight, and I did not hear that their attitude or altitude instruments went off.

The magic little word here is: MIGHT. It MIGHT cause interference with the equipment on board.... Come on, discuss that to the guys at Cargenie Mellon University and let us know how you did.

RM  Yeah sure
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edelag
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting Fly727 (Reply 17):
You did? 13-15 years according to your profile... Boy, and I thought Doogie Howser was a genius.

Its always nice that your parents work in this big companies that buy planes as if they were pencils, and you parents get to go to cities on business and they bring you along. And Doogie Howser is a genius.
It's not just the destination, it's the journey.
 
PurdueAv2003
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:23 pm

Quoting Edelag (Reply 16):
Didn't the victims of Sep 11, use their cellphones while mid flight, and I did not hear that their attitude or altitude instruments went off.

And on a flight I took on a Rayethon 800XP I forgot to turn off my cellphone and I did not crash and I did land an ILS approach to MTY.

It's not a 100% certainty. The study shows that there is the "potential" for interference. Have you ever noticed that at your office or home, you may have full signal one day, but the next day you only have "two bars"? There are a large number of factors that weigh into whether the EMI actually causes a problem. I pray the NTSB never has to attribute the cause of a crash to Joe Schmo who thought his conversation was more important than the lives of everyone on board.

I support issuing detection equipment to the F/A's, as the study suggests. During there final checks, walk down the aisle and make sure their phones are off. First time, kindly ask, as some people do honestly forget to turn them off since they don't pay attention to the safety briefing (another issue all together). Second time, nail them for disobey flight crew instructions. Treat them just like the fools that disable smoke detectors.
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fly727
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:32 pm

Quoting Edelag (Reply 18):
Its always nice that your parents work in this big companies that buy planes as if they were pencils, and you parents get to go to cities on business and they bring you along. And Doogie Howser is a genius.



RM  expressionless 
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
galapagapop
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:33 pm

Its also a mental thing when taking metro north in the morning to NY every day I can drown out the trophy wives who are headed into NY for shopping and are just yapping away and so can most everyone else, even if in the morning and at the end of the day its just a pain. But the difference is with a cell phone you can't do that as all you hear are 1 ended responses. No 2 way conversation which to a human Psychy its almost a command format. Making it so your involved. Its an annoyance, luckily on Metro North most (certainly not all) understand you gotta work and certainly try their best to talk on the cell phone (not to mention reception is bad overall as well). But planes would be disatrous as unlike commuting trains its not only longer (more time away from office), but its usually not ending up with you going to the office. Sometimes its the start of your vacation so they will be trying to squeeze every last office hour in. It would certainly be painful.
 
steeler83
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:52 pm

This is just from my experience, but my cell phone actually interferes with my TV, computer, even my car radio. Whenever someone's trying to call or text me while I am watching television, I can tell even before the phone rings. Two seconds before the phone rings, my TV will make a buzzing noise, the same thing with my computer and car radio. Then, again, that's just based on my experience...

And, I'll be damned. That was on in today's paper (on today's webpage) and I didn't even see it. I'm on there everyday...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
MTY2GVA
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:53 pm

Cellphones can cause cancer too. I have talked on cellphones during flight in fact the pilot helped me get to the window with the best reception. I mean of course cellphones can cause interference, we all know that its nothing new.
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antoniemey
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:10 pm

I don't think I'd like a plane full of cell phones... yes, I talk on my cell phone in public, but I try to talk as quietly as possible so as not to bother people around me... I also tell the person to hold on for a moment if I need to talk to someone else.

Now, what we must also consider is that certain phone technologies cause different levels of interference...

My old Nokia 5100 I never had any problem with at all. But now I have a Motorola RAZR (GSM)... and it, and every other GSM phone I've had, wreaks havoc with any other signal emitting or receiving device in my house when it's in use. That includes everything from the wireless keyboard to the LCD monitor, to the 15 year old "boom box" radio.

And then consider the added signals of bluetooth headsets and accesories... well, that possibly adds a whole different set of complications with signals.

In the end, there's not much important enough in life that I see the need to allow Cell phone use on planes in the air.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:22 pm

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 24):
And then consider the added signals of bluetooth headsets and accesories... well, that possibly adds a whole different set of complications with signals.

I agree with the rest of the interference, but Bluetooth is very weak and only has a range of about 30 feet with line of sight if the stars are aligned.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:40 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
I agree with the rest of the interference, but Bluetooth is very weak and only has a range of about 30 feet with line of sight if the stars are aligned.

No, Bluetooth has a *usable* stepped datarate over 30ft, its signal actually goes out a fair bit further but at such low datarates theres no stepping for it.
 
kalvado
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:55 pm

OK, guys, there is one thing I don't understand: if cell phone can cause troubles with eqipment, how bad would be "legal" interference from radars (think long-range high-power military equipment), ligtning storms etc?
Not to mention any loose contacts in any electric circuit. Could you, for example, imagine a crash due to poor contact in IFE circuits?

Not that I like the idea of people talking in flight- but price it right, and that solves the problem. How many people are using already installed airphones anyway?
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 9):
The real annoyance is from people who cannot accept the fact that the rest of the world does NOT want to hear their conversation!!

 checkmark 

Quoting Edelag (Reply 16):
Didn't the victims of Sep 11, use their cellphones while mid flight, and I did not hear that their attitude or altitude instruments went off.

Very inappropriate and insensitive example to prove your point....  thumbsdown 

Quoting Edelag (Reply 16):
And on a flight I took on a Rayethon 800XP I forgot to turn off my cellphone and I did not crash and I did land an ILS approach to MTY.

Rather than crowing about it, consider yourself lucky that yours was not that one in a thousand cases where the interference could have caused some major problem to the instruments.....remember, aviation is all about protecting pax and crew from even the slightest threat of danger....that's why flying is so safe today and you can sip your champagne, watch that movie and ogle at that F/A while hurtling across the sky at near supersonic speeds and high altitutdes...

Let's try and keep it that way....  smile 
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 27):
OK, guys, there is one thing I don't understand: if cell phone can cause troubles with eqipment, how bad would be "legal" interference from radars (think long-range high-power military equipment), ligtning storms etc?
Not to mention any loose contacts in any electric circuit. Could you, for example, imagine a crash due to poor contact in IFE circuits?

Two different things.

The IFE is supposed to be grounded or shielded from inteference, so if any shorts do cause electromagnetic radiation its supposed to be contained within the device itself and not interfere with other systems.

Radar et al act on totally different wavelengths or frequencies desigened not to interfere with devices.

Lightening storms would have to be very exact or extremely broad spectrum to cause sustained interference.

Cell phones are designed to put out constant radiation on specific frequencies, which unfortunately happen to intersect those that are relied on within the cockpit.

It has to be pretty constant, pretty powerful and on the same (or boundry) frequencies or wavelengths for it to pose a problem.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:12 pm

A simple exercise just to understand how powerful are the signals emitted by a cellphone....

Keep your cell next to a computer with a CRT display monitor and have someone call you.....the disturbance visible on the screen is amazing....no other electronic device creates that sort of disturbance....
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:16 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 9):
The real danger from cell phones is users who think they can multi-task but cannot.

The real annoyance is from people who cannot accept the fact that the rest of the world does NOT want to hear their conversation!!

If you think passengers are on edge now, just wait until they have to listen to someone's "important" call for an hour...

KEEP THE BAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I AGREE! Passengers are going to kill each other if cell phone usage is allowed. It'll be a flying nightmare.
 
byronsterk
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:48 am

Well, i suppose it could be alright IF it was only used on silent mode and only to send and receive SMS messages, and to use GPRS internet connection
Helicopters can't fly, there just so ugly the earth repells them...
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:47 am

ok well just let me add this:

As someone who supports GSM/GPRS/EDGE network devices, i can tell you they WILL interefere with any of the following in close proximity: Speakers, CRTs, LCDs, Bluetooth, 802.11x wireless, radio receivers in the mid to high frequency ranges, radio transmitters in the mid to ultra-high ranges, florescent lighting, heck ive even seen it cause a transaction error on a "whitebox" ATM. How bad and how close you have to be depends on the device, signal frequency (850, 900, 1800 or 1900mhz) and shielding around the affected object.

Now you are going to hear people crow that CDMA doesn't cause the same problems, that is incorrect, the only difference is the signal modulation makes it harder to detect, however the interference is there. I for one have seen many unexplained computer problems being caused by a CDMA device in close proximity.

Also there is an additional concern: many newer "high speed" devices (EDGE, G3, etc) use smart strength transmit settings. What this means is as long as the device is getting good signal, it keep the signal at the lowest setting it can. Now the problem with this is, if you loose signal, it puts the transmiter at maximum. So think of this people, plane, flying, looses tower. Also the real kicker of the issue: the current cell system CANNOT cope with the speed and LOS issues associated with airliners. The whole system would go nuts if it could see one device from say... 50 towers, like you'd get overflying an urban area.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
byronsterk
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RE: Cellphones Are A Hazard - Study

Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:18 am

Didn't Lufthansa do a research on this? and said that is was no hazard?
Helicopters can't fly, there just so ugly the earth repells them...

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