Boeing757/767
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Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:38 am

I haven't seen anything like this before -- a press release by an established carrier countering a competitor's monthly performance figures. Looks like gloves off. I'm not a fan of this kind of PR.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060302/nyth184.html?.v=26

(Edited to add that both parties are guilty!)

[Edited 2006-03-02 22:51:17]
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Air Tran Cheap Shot

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:43 am

DL started it by releasing this press release two hours earlier.

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/060302/95123.html


I don't think Airtran would have said anything, but DL was kind of asking for it.
 
rdwelch
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RE: Air Tran Cheap Shot

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:43 am

Nasty. FL better watch out, you don't want to hit a giant when they are down, and aren't certain they'll get back up. If you're going to hit 'em, make sure they're going to stay down.

Gus.
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
fewsolarge
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RE: Air Tran Cheap Shot

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:43 am

I am. If Delta's going to serve Kool-Aid to the media, why shouldn't AirTran spike it?

This, from a Delta employee.
 
atrude777
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RE: Air Tran Cheap Shot

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:48 am

Why is it bad? AirTran is defending themselves. It IS the truth, and that is what they are doing. If I recall SWA did the exact same thing to Northwest Airlines too!



Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Boeing757/767
Topic Author
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RE: Air Tran Cheap Shot

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:49 am

OK, thanks for sharing the DL release. Didn't see that. Tit for tat then.

Let the gloves come off!

[Edited 2006-03-02 22:59:00]
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
BishopOfPHL
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RE: Air Tran Cheap Shot

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:51 am

I like it. DL took the opportunity to exploit one metric that makes them look good, and Air Tran fires back with about 6 or 7 that do the same for them.

The best part is the quote from their VP of Planning: "I would have thought Delta would have more important things to focus on with their bankruptcy, record losses and pending pilots' strike than this, but I appreciate them giving us the opportunity to set the record straight."
 
rdwelch
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RE: Air Tran Cheap Shot

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:52 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 1):
DL started it by releasing this press release two hours earlier.

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/060302/95123.html


I don't think Airtran would have said anything, but DL was kind of asking for it.



Quoting Fewsolarge (Reply 3):
I am. If Delta's going to serve Kool-Aid to the media, why shouldn't AirTran spike it?

This, from a Delta employee.



Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 5):
OK, thanks for sharing the DL release. Did'nt see that. Tit fot tat then.

Let the gloves come off!

I didn't see the DL release either. As they say in the ring, or quoting Marvin Gaye, "Let's get it on!"

Gus
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
73G
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:19 am

Tough week for Delta's PR folks. First having to backtrack on the 'phantom' schedule changes and now issuing a press release which begged for the response given by AirTran. Dumb mistakes...par for the course these days.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:22 am

ROTFLMAO

This is like a spitball competition from high school.

Not very professional on either side.
However still very funny.

 rotfl  cheeky   laughing   duck 
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
deltagator
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:25 am

I'll consider switching to AirTran for a majority of my flights when they offer flights everywhere I need to go and when I want to go there. I'll also consider them if they are part of an alliance that will get me anywhere (almost seamlessly) in the world.

I won't consider changing to them for a few measly percentage points of on-time arrival as I never get bumped, hardly ever get my flight cancelled that I don't rescheduled for the next one in an hour or two, and in the two times DL has lost my bag in the past 20 years they had it back to me the same evening so that becomes a moot point as well.

Quoting Rdwelch (Reply 7):
As they say in the ring, or quoting Marvin Gaye, "Let's get it on!"

Two completely different meanings for the same set of words. I prefer the second one with someone of a female nature...of course that is my wife.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
rdwelch
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 10):
Two completely different meanings for the same set of words. I prefer the second one with someone of a female nature...of course that is my wife.

Copy that DeltaGator, I'll be sure to use the proper context next time. Nice recovery by the way. Big grin

Gus.
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting Kevin Healy, AirTran Airways' vice president of planning:
"AirTran Airways would like to congratulate Delta on this accomplishment, but why stop there? Let's look at all consumer metrics reported by the DOT, including cancelled flights, lost bags, oversales and complaints. Based on the most recent DOT report, Delta was 21 percent more likely to cancel your flight, 64 percent more likely to lose your bag, an astounding 1,440 percent more likely to bump you against your will and, I suppose, not surprisingly, Delta customers complain 93 percent more about their Delta flights and service than AirTran customers."



grr...I couldn't find the more commonly used KO pic used in Non-Av
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
airtran737
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:31 am

It's some funny stuff. I read it and started to laugh my ass off.





edited to add a bitch slap

[Edited 2006-03-02 23:39:12]
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
ptharris
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:12 am

Ya-freakin-hoo! Good for FL! Hey, airlines have been doing this kind of bantering for years. The WN ad that Atrude777 posted is a classic example. I couldn't help from laughing out loud when I read that quote about DL focusing on other things. What was funny about the whole article is that they could have easily just stated the facts and left it there. But the gloves came off and David took a swing at Goliath and it landed and landed right on the eye. DL will have to brush this off somehow.. mostly they'll just ignore it. But, if they want to keep in good time, they'll throw a statement back.

Ahh, the good ol' days. I remember when this used to be a common occurance. Keeps airlines on their toes and working hard to getting the job done. The industry keeps this kind of action up, we just might see the return of some great airlines.  pray 

Let the games begin!  box 
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:27 am

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 12):
Mikey711MN

Make sure he stays down otherwise he'll bite your ear when he gets up.. Lets go  box  Dl and FL.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
steeler83
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:44 am

What about "let's get ready to ruuuummmmbllllllee!!!!!!!!!!"
Go Airtran!!  box 
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
FA4B6
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:48 am

I agree with everyone!!

I especially liked the last paragraph:

"So if you don't need to get there and don't really like your luggage, fly Delta; but when the trip matters and you really want to get to your final destination with your bags and a smile on your face, fly AirTran Airways," said Healy. "I would have thought Delta would have more important things to focus on with their bankruptcy, record losses and pending pilots' strike than this, but I appreciate them giving us the opportunity to set the record straight."
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
wjcandee
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:15 am

Well...this is a little like Trump and Martha Stewart fighting. Gee...why are they all of a sudden bickering in the media about "The Apprentice"? OH, WHAT A COINCIDENCE! THERE'S A NEW SEASON STARTING!

The real point of Delta's press release was to say, "Despite all the negative crap you've heard recently, we're really operating just fine." They probably hoped for a little squib in the AJC (the local paper) reporting the figures and reminding Atlantans that they're basically still running a decent operation.

Unfortunately, they led with their chin by mentioning their competitor. The Airtran press release is EXACTLY the kind of thing that I used to be tasked to write -- something that just takes the facts and spikes them 10 feet into the opponent's butt, along with a little snippy characterization at the end as sort of a victory dance. Sometimes it would go out as is. Sometimes someone with a little perspective would say, "Well, that's not where we really want to go", and we'd take out the victory dance.

The little report on the statistics would go on page 23 of the paper in the lower right corner: "Delta reports on-time statistics". But media LOVE FIREWORKS. So, this snide Airtran release might get them a little better press: "Sparks Fly Between Atlanta Airlines" on page 3.

At the end of the day, the Delta-leaning fliers who were worried about the bankruptcy come away thinking, "Okay, they're still performing adequately." The folks who were afraid to fly Airtran come away thinking, "Gee, I guess they have a pretty decent operation." The folks who might have switched to an out-of-town carrier think, "Okay, I guess I can fly one of my hometown carriers." And life goes on.

For the "club-them-in-the-head-with-a-2x4" kind of document that this was, it was great writing. Not elegant, but these things aren't supposed to be. It's the skinny kid who knows karate knocking the bully on his ass the first time the guy even looks his way.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:29 am

Wow. I never thought I'd see the day...

It's nice to see AirTran respond so quickly and so strongly. Though Delta didn't mention AirTran in its press release, 99.9% of all Atlantans knows who they are referring to. AirTran referring to Delta by name sort of surprises me however.

Actually, it doesn't. Remember the whole FlyI at CLT fiasco?

JetBluefan1
 
hiflyer
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:40 am

I like it..only because the comparisons being thrown about are more apples vs apples instead of 'we won this ficticous award' and 'but we won this ficticous award'.
 
WesternA318
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 10):
I'll consider switching to AirTran for a majority of my flights when they offer flights everywhere I need to go and when I want to go there.

DeltaGator, If you'd like, I'll send you a few free passes in BizClass on FL for this year.

Quoting Ptharris (Reply 14):
The industry keeps this kind of action up, we just might see the return of some great airlines.

AMEN REV. Ptharris! I pray the day TWA and Western come back.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 18):
For the "club-them-in-the-head-with-a-2x4" kind of document that this was, it was great writing.

hehe, 2x4's are not strong enough....anyone interested in sparring with some rebar?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
73G
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:00 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 19):
Though Delta didn't mention AirTran in its press release

The headline of their press release says AirTran!!
 
jerion
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:39 am

Yes! Delta mentions AirTran in the title and once in the first paragraph.

I laughed my @ss off when I read the AirTran release.

 Smile

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 19):
It's nice to see AirTran respond so quickly and so strongly. Though Delta didn't mention AirTran in its press release, 99.9% of all Atlantans knows who they are referring to. AirTran referring to Delta by name sort of surprises me however.
L10/D9S/D10/M80/M88/732/733/734/735/73G/738/72S/757/762/763/320/319/318/ERJ
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:12 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 21):
DeltaGator, If you'd like, I'll send you a few free passes in BizClass on FL for this year.

And that will help him how? Offering him anything that he didn't ask for? He didn't ask for free upgrades on FL. But everything he did ask for, FL can't provide.

Personally, I never thought I would see the day Delta would stoop to FL's level of marketing. However, it did give FL a chance to make an ass of theirselves with a retort. They like to mention all the things that DL is "more likely" to do(as if DL tried to do these things) and forgets to mention that they aren't even half the size of FL. For instance:

Delta AirTran %
Air Lines Airways Difference


On-time Arrival All Airports 77.3 % 75.3 % 2.7 %
Atlanta 75.7 % 73.7 % 2.7 %
Common Airports (All DAL) 74.0 % 75.2 % -1.7 %


Delta posted higher than FL on all statistics in on time arrivals, but when it refered to "common airports"(anyone notice no other airline statistics ever mention this, therefore FL just made this one up for themselves?) the difference is only 1.7% in favor of FL. Pretty insignificant, considering that DL is twice as large as FL, so 1.7% isn't exactly newsworthy, especially in a "common airport" area that FL made up.

Secondly:

Cancelled Flights (percent of schedule) 1.7 % 1.4 % 21.4 %

Now, math was never a major for me in college, but I don't see .3% difference as 21.4%. Anyway, lets just say it is for arguments sake. Delta will cancel your flight 1.7% of the time, as compared to the smaller rival's 1.4%. Given that DL is twice as large, that would account to Airtran being MORE LIKELY to cancel your flight than DL! Way to go, FL!!!  footinmouth 


Third:

Lost Bags (per 1,000 passengers) 6.71 4.09 64.1 %


Same as before. I don't see how 2.62% difference equates to 64.1%, but anyway...FL loses your bags only 2% less than DL does. Given that DL is twice as large as FL, that means FL has some serious problems with their bags. Given that their interline bags with other airlines DON'T EVEN include bag tag numbers, its not surprising why. If your not going to have a number to track a bag, why even put a tag on it in the first place?


Fourth:

Involuntary (per 10,000 passengers) 1.54 0.1 1,440.0 %
Denied
Boardings


Now, I looked into this one and talk about a typo. Airtran is reporting October-December 2005 traffic, NOT January. If they chose to scroll down a little more in the DOT report, they would see that over the course of 2005, FL's denied boarding numbers are much closer, 0.37 as compared to DL's 1.31! Not exactly the 1,440% that FL would like.


Fifth:

Complaints (per 100,000 passengers) 1.43 0.74 93.2 %


Now, they are correct in this category. And from that, once again, Delta is the larger of the 2 airlines, so it should have twice as many complaints as FL, right? Nope. In order for DL to be eclipsing FL with twice as many complaints, they would have to have 1.48 complaints per 100,000 passengers. Therefore, statistically speaking, FL has more complaints than DL if you were to compare them evenly.


So, as much as FL would like to spin the numbers(as some folks on these boards like to do as well), the numbers don't play out when compared to the size of the carriers. When you do that, FL is far and above worse than FL, not surprisingly. Also, over the course of 2005, DL played out better than FL in several monthly categories as well.

Now that DL stated the facts and FL came back with high-school name calling in knee-jerk defense, its pretty clear that FL can't help but admit that DL has them beat, so they spin some numbers and shoot out wrong percentages. And considering that FL is freaking out that DL is starting to challenge them on their own monopolistic routes, it should be interesting to watch it play out.


http://usgovinfo.about.com/gi/dynami...ite=http://www.dot.gov/airconsumer


OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:26 am

Hey...i work for Delta, but who can knock AirTran for spelling it out.

AirTran continues to KICK OUR A$$ in Atlanta.

They didn't need to publish this stuff though. AirTran enjoys an excellent reputation in Atlanta and elsewhere. People know how well they are doing.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
steeler83
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 25):
They didn't need to publish this stuff though. AirTran enjoys an excellent reputation in Atlanta and elsewhere. People know how well they are doing.

Airtran is operating as one of the best airlines in the industry right now; right up there with other airlines like WN and YX. DL said that they have ceased PIT-ATL service because of FL. Does anyone know if FL intends to add service to PIT? I heard rumors of that in Nov and Dec. Anything happening regarding that?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
73G
Posts: 94
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:45 am

Otto, my man. Do you know what a ratio is? Its the relative magnitude of two quantities. Do you know what that means or was English not your major (or minor) either? It provides a means of equality...leveling the playing field if you will. Do you know what the 'per xxx passengers' is? Its the denominator of the ratio, the equalizer if you will. The smaller number on top is the numerator, the changeable value. And although the numerator will change, the denominator will always be the same. By breaking down your total value into a constant denominator, you are creating an even scale. That way, the smallest major and largest major can be compared with fairness and equality. Your logic of 'twice as large' is 100% flawed.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 24):
Given that DL is twice as large

Simply put, get over it. Size has nothing to do it. At least not to the DOT, but what do they know?
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:59 am

Good for FL to stick up for themselves. Any self respecting airline wouldn't let a dying dinosaur of an airline get in a cheap shot without a quick response. It was well written, and to the consumer, it made it pretty clear that FL beats DL in several categories. DL lovers of the world should at least be pleased that FL admitted to being #2 to DL as far as OTP goes.
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:21 pm

This was a brilliant PR response by AirTran. I laughed out loud and shared it with everyone in my office because it was such a bonehead, naive, sophomoric PR move by Delta. Who's running the show at Delta? Is the same PR company working for Delta and the White House - How could they not have anticipated a response like this! It's MINDBOGGLING!!!!

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 24):
Now, math was never a major for me in college, but I don't see .3% difference as 21.4%. Anyway, lets just say it is for arguments sake. Delta will cancel your flight 1.7% of the time, as compared to the smaller rival's 1.4%. Given that DL is twice as large, that would account to Airtran being MORE LIKELY to cancel your flight than DL! Way to go, FL!!!

Dude, you clearly don't understand math at all. It's not a 0.3% difference, it's a 0.3 percentage point difference off a base of 1.4%, and the difference between 1.7% and 1.4% is indeed 21.4%.

Let's do the math together: 1.7 - 1.4 = 0.3, okay so far? Now, take 0.3 and divide it by 1.4 = 21.4%. Also, as stated above, the size of the carrier is taken into account in the relative percentage of the canceled flights, complaints, lost baggage, etc. Delta cancels 1.7% of its flights, AirTran cancels 1.4% of its flights - Guess what that means? It means that not only does Delta cancel far more flights than AirTran (because DL operates far more flights, but that's not a fair comparison), Delta also cancels a HIGHER percentage of flights. That means you have a 21.4% greater chance to have your Delta flight canceled versus your AirTran flight.

The one benefit of making mistakes is to learn, that is, unless you have blinders on.
 
jetbluefan1
Posts: 2852
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting 73G (Reply 22):
The headline of their press release says AirTran!!

You're 100% correct. My bad.

Now that I've unblinded myself, I see that DL doesn't have the smartest PR people. Did they really think that AirTran, a company known for its aggressive defensive and offensive marketing strategies, would just sit idly by?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 24):
Complaints (per 100,000 passengers) 1.43 0.74 93.2 %


Now, they are correct in this category. And from that, once again, Delta is the larger of the 2 airlines, so it should have twice as many complaints as FL, right? Nope. In order for DL to be eclipsing FL with twice as many complaints, they would have to have 1.48 complaints per 100,000 passengers. Therefore, statistically speaking, FL has more complaints than DL if you were to compare them evenly.

I'm sorry, but I have no clue what you're talking about. First, you say that AirTran is correct. Then, you say the stats are wrong. So which one is it?

On a scale of per 100,000 passengers, which HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TOTAL AMOUNT OF PASSENGERS CARRIED, FL had almost half as many complaints. This is 100% correct.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 24):
FL's denied boarding numbers are much closer, 0.37 as compared to DL's 1.31! Not exactly the 1,440% that FL would like.

Point taken. But still, FL has a much lower rate than DL any way you look at it.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 24):
Lost Bags (per 1,000 passengers) 6.71 4.09 64.1 %


Same as before. I don't see how 2.62% difference equates to 64.1%, but anyway...FL loses your bags only 2% less than DL does.

Nope, there's nothing wrong with their math. The ratio, 6.71 (DL):4.09 (FL) is a 64.1% difference.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 24):
the difference is only 1.7% in favor of FL. Pretty insignificant, considering that DL is twice as large as FL, so 1.7% isn't exactly newsworthy, especially in a "common airport" area that FL made up.

DL was the one that spit out a Press Release about being 2.7% higher. That's pretty insignificant too.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 24):
Given that DL is twice as large, that would account to Airtran being MORE LIKELY to cancel your flight than DL! Way to go, FL!!!

What? A percentage amount doesn't have to do with the size of the airline. 1.7% of DL's flights were cancelled. 1.4% of FL's flights were cancelled. It doesn't matter how many flights were operated, because the fact remains that FL still had a lower cancellation rate (percentage).


I honestly don't see how one can defend this. DL's size has nothing to do with its results. Neither does AirTran's. Because all of this information is based on percentages on a common number (1,000, 10,000, or 100,000), volume, flights operated, etc. has absolutely nothing to do with the DOT figures.

I'm not trying to diss DL. They had good results overall, except for the denied boardings (which is just ridiculous). But FL beat them, and DL wasn't smart enough to realize that the FL PR team wasn't just going to sit around and do nothing about it.

However, from what I've observed, FL lives by this theory...

"Hurt me, and I'll hurt you back 10 times worse."

Just makes you wonder...do you really want to mess with the FL marketing folks?

JetBluefan1
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting BishopOfPHL (Reply 6):

The best part is the quote from their VP of Planning: "I would have thought Delta would have more important things to focus on with their bankruptcy, record losses and pending pilots' strike than this, but I appreciate them giving us the opportunity to set the record straight."

That's the worst quote.

Delta really doesn't say anything about AirTran, except that they beat them in on-time performance. If AirTran reacted similarly, they just would have said:

"Department of Transporation statistics show that AirTran's cancellation rate, lost luggage rate and customer complaint rate is significantly lower than primary competitor Delta."

Instead they released that. I just hope Delta doesn't retailate by a similar press release.

AAndrew
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 21):
DeltaGator, If you'd like, I'll send you a few free passes in BizClass on FL for this year.

If you're offering I could use them for vacations and maybe a business trip here or there. I choose DL mainly because they get me anywhere I need to go, including overseas, and they've taken damn good care of me for many years now.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 24):
Pretty insignificant, considering that DL is twice as large as FL, so 1.7% isn't exactly newsworthy, especially in a "common airport" area that FL made up.

The "common airport" is an interesting one. Perhaps if they compared the total percentage for DL across all airports versus their total number across all airports the numbers don't go in their favor. I too can get statistics to say anything I want them to say...I worked for politicians once.

On a somewhat related note...Otto, I'm checking a bag from SFO to ATL on Friday morning. Can you keep an eye on it and make sure it gets to the baggage claim in ATL for mne? The last time I came back my bag got left in SFO although DL had it to me that evening.

2 delayed bags in 20 years of DL...not too shabby. No matter what the Critter says.

Edit: spelling

[Edited 2006-03-03 04:47:07]

[Edited 2006-03-03 04:47:32]
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:51 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 31):
Delta really doesn't say anything about AirTran, except that they beat them in on-time performance. If AirTran reacted similarly, they just would have said:

"Department of Transporation statistics show that AirTran's cancellation rate, lost luggage rate and customer complaint rate is significantly lower than primary competitor Delta."

Instead they released that. I just hope Delta doesn't retailate by a similar press release.

Gimme a break! The way AirTran responded was clever, humorous, and illustrated a lack of foresight on Delta's part. Now, answer me this AAndrew, how would Delta retaliate? AirTran took the DOT statistics and compared them accurately between themselves and Delta.

What's Delta going to say, "We loose $10 million per day, so we must have lower fares than AirTran."

[Edited 2006-03-03 04:56:41]
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting Rdwelch (Reply 2):
Nasty. FL better watch out, you don't want to hit a giant when they are down, and aren't certain they'll get back up. If you're going to hit 'em, make sure they're going to stay down.

Gus.

Delta is an empty giant. When DAL was at their strongest in the late 90's, they could barely make a dent in AirTran/ValuJet. FL is much too strong and efficient for DAL and NW. FL cost and market analysis are by far advanced than the legacy carriers they compete with.

The press release by DAL is a sign of desparate measures. DAL's cash requirements exceed the revenue bookings.
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:22 pm

If the AirTran response to Delta hadn't been so clever and funny, it would truly be tragic. No, I take that back, it is tragic. Not only was Delta's press release a sign of desparate measures, it was also just plain DUMB!

I feel for the employees. I think there is a lot of blame to go around for their predicament, but many of management's decisions since bankruptcy have been absolutely unacceptable.
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:07 pm

Maybe I missed this in all of this...but do these statistics include the Delta Connection carriers? I would say, in order to compare these evenly, you would have to include them because they are in the Delta system since FL doesn't have any outsourced flying. The statistics could go either way with that...

Either way, I think this is funny...kind of reminds me of when I was younger and always picking fights with my little sister  Smile
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:14 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 26):
DL said that they have ceased PIT-ATL service because of FL.

Say what? Where have you heard this? DL still operates ATL-PIT and will continue to do so. MD-88 service down the board last time I looked.

Quoting 73G (Reply 27):
Your logic of 'twice as large' is 100% flawed.

According to the "rules" of the DOT website, it isn't flawed. Any other way, the numbers wouldn't add up. Like I said, mathematics wasn't my major in college, but even I can read those numbers and know the size of the carrier does matter. Anyway...

Quoting 73G (Reply 27):
Simply put, get over it. Size has nothing to do it. /quote]


Not according to my girlfriend. But is that what you've been told before?  scratchchin 



[quote=SeeTheWorld,reply=29]I laughed out loud and shared it with everyone in my office because it was such a bonehead, naive, sophomoric PR move by
Delta.

Have you not read FL's press releases before? Several of them mention them compared to DL. It was only time for DL to share the comparisons.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 29):
Dude, you clearly don't understand math at all.

I think I covered that in my first post. But your missing the point. Even you said:

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 29):
Delta cancel far more flights than AirTran (because DL operates far more flights, but that's not a fair comparison)

So, of course DL would cancel more flights, they operate at least twice as many. Airtran has what, just over 100 planes so far, and DL has over 400?
Taking that into account, Delta is more than twice as large as Airtran, so of course the percentage of cancellations would be higher.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 30):
Did they really think that AirTran, a company known for its aggressive defensive and offensive marketing strategies, would just sit idly by?

What "aggressive" strategies? Oh, you mean the ones they tried against DH? Yea, like they even needed to try to be aggressive against an already dead animal. Other than that, I haven't seen any "aggressiveness"
from FL's PR folks.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 30):
First, you say that AirTran is correct. Then, you say the stats are wrong. So which one is it?

Nope, you read it wrong. I was stating that if Delta were to have so many more complaints against it as compared to FL, the numbers would have to be higher. Therefore, Delta has less complaints as compared to
the size of the two carriers.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 30):
Point taken. But still, FL has a much lower rate than DL any way you look at it.

Just goes to show, who really wants to fly Airtran? LOL  box 

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 30):
DL was the one that spit out a Press Release about being 2.7% higher. That's pretty insignificant too.

Fair enough, I'll give you that.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 30):
I honestly don't see how one can defend this. DL's size has nothing to do with its results. Neither does AirTran's.

Sure it does. By size, Delta operates several hundred more flights than Airtran. Therefore, of course there will be a higher cancellation rate. When FL is flying as many flights a month as DL(not anytime soon), then we can see who has the better cancellation rate, etc.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 30):
However, from what I've observed, FL lives by this theory...

"Hurt me, and I'll hurt you back 10 times worse."

Just makes you wonder...do you really want to mess with the FL marketing folks?

HAHAHAHA!!! How did they "hurt" anyone? Its a freaking press release, for crying out loud. I mean, if they really lived by that theory, then how is DL able to drive them off routes with FL doing nothing more than sulking back to ATL to heal their wounds? Its already happened on a couple of routes and FL admitted it. And when DL starts the MCO-Midwest expansion...

And to think, I just thought it was the press releases that seemed teenage.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 32):
I too can get statistics to say anything I want them to say...I worked for politicians once.

 laughing  Good one.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 32):
Otto, I'm checking a bag from SFO to ATL on Friday morning. Can you keep an eye on it and make sure it gets to the baggage claim in ATL for mne?

Oh, way to go, just let everyone know. All the Airtran folks will be stalking every DL SFO-ATL flight to ensure that bag never makes it to the South baggage claim. LOL Tell ya what, thats normally not part of my job(although I've done my fair share of bag slugging), but I'll do my best. At least if it were to get left in SFO, we could get it there a couple hours later. Just think, if you were on FL with their one flight a day, you wouldn't get it until the next day.  duck 

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 33):
AirTran took the DOT statistics and compared them accurately between themselves and Delta.

Yea, by adding their own categories. Last time I looked, I don't remember a section of the DOT report that compared "common airports." Face it, Airtran did exactly what Delta probably knew they, and responded with a very sophmoric reply that underscored the mature choice of turning the other cheek. To quote a prominent philosopher, "To make yourself look like an ass in public is worth it, as long as the end result makes the other guy look like a bigger ass." Basically, he is saying, Delta can put out a PR saying how great they do as compared to FL, FL will fire back with a childish retort, and DL can just sit back and laugh at FL's immaturity.

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 34):
When DAL was at their strongest in the late 90's, they could barely make a dent in AirTran/ValuJet.

Your so full of it and you know it. Thats why your credibility is always blown, because you post, but never respond or back up your rhetoric. DL wasn't trying to "make a dent" in the 90's, they didn't have to. In the late 90's, Delta was making record profits, the travel industry was booming. Why worry about this little Greyhound of an airline trying to immitate you when the cash is flowing in. Had DL wanted to, they could have crushed VJ in the blink of an eye when it first began. But it didn't have to. Had you ANY insight of Delta and you would know that. Nice try though.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 35):
I feel for the employees. I think there is a lot of blame to go around for their predicament, but many of management's decisions since bankruptcy have been absolutely unacceptable.

Well, considering the fact that Delta's losses have begun to narrow since BK, I really don't see where this comes from. Please don't tell me your making that statement based on a press release.  rotfl 


Well, as much as I would love to continue this for the immediate future, but St. Maarten's beaches are calling me this weekend(try to take FL there, ain't gonna happen). LOL So I will be away from a.net for the next couple of days, so if you don't see me poking around for a little bit, don't worry, I'll be back soon enough.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:05 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:46 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 37):
Well, considering the fact that Delta's losses have begun to narrow since BK, I really don't see where this comes from. Please don't tell me your making that statement based on a press release. rotfl

"Excluding reorganization and special items, the fourth quarter net loss
was $782 million. (1)(2)"

"about $213 million excluding bankruptcy costs" (for january)

The first value projected over a year is an operating loss of 3.1 Billion in one year, and the second value projected over a year is an operating loss of 2.5 billion. I suppose the 2.5 billion is less than 3.1 billion.. but when both values are more than the amount of unrestricted cash= DL has left, does it really matter? DL needs huge changes fast or they are in big trouble. I don't dislike DL, i've flown them several times over the past couple years, but the numbers speak for themselves.

[Edited 2006-03-03 07:59:00]
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5347
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:03 pm

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 29):
The one benefit of making mistakes is to learn, that is, unless you have blinders on.

He does.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 37):
And to think, I just thought it was the press releases that seemed teenage.

Nope. You seem to be getting younger by the day.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 37):
Basically, he is saying, Delta can put out a PR saying how great they do as compared to FL, FL will fire back with a childish retort, and DL can just sit back and laugh at FL's immaturity.

Were you sweating when you typed this? It smacks of desperation. No offense, but do you really believe this was even remotely contrived or expected by Delta? If so, then yes, their PR sucks.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 37):
Well, as much as I would love to continue this for the immediate future, but St. Maarten's beaches are calling me this weekend(try to take FL there, ain't gonna happen).

Well, AirTran will likely make a buck off the next passenger. In the meantime, you probably just added $5 to Delta's 2006 loss. Oh wait, you probably non-rev'd it.

You know, Otto, I try to have a sense of humor when reading your posts, but when all is said and done, they just make me have a very negative feeling about Delta. Your negative arrogance makes me want to criticize Delta, and I don't even fly them or care one way or the other!

You would probably do them a favor if you quit feeling the need to piss on AirTran in every thread and just let it go once in a while. No one is going to race to Delta if you keep quiet, but at least you don't drive them away.

And what was your deal with understanding the relevancy of the statistical comparisons? Again, it makes you seem like your trying to claw your way out of a muddy pit.

-Dave
-Dave
 
bennett123
Posts: 7424
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RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:25 pm

OttoPylit

If you have figures per 1,000 then they are comparable. If the figures were the same, then the bigger airline will have lost more bags, but the same percentage of bags lost.

The problem with comparing 1.4% and 1.7% is that mathematically the difference is 21%. Divide 1.7 by 1.4 and you get 1.21, this is an increase of 21%. Now in reality the difference between 1.4 and 1.7 is probably insignificant, (some days FL is better, some days DL is better).
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:02 pm

OttoPylit,

I apologize in advance, but your ignorance on simple math is astounding, and it affects the credibility of all your posts because one begins to think you might always be talking out of your a**.

READ, LISTEN, LEARN or nobody is going to take anything you say seriously. A little humility and objectivity wouldn't hurt either.

You often write more than anyone else on a topic but still end end up saying the least.
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:11 pm

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/

Good Morning Delta Management.
 
N5716b
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:38 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 37):
Maybe I missed this in all of this...but do these statistics include the Delta Connection carriers? I would say, in order to compare these evenly, you would have to include them because they are in the Delta system since FL doesn't have any outsourced flying. The statistics could go either way with that...

Actually, I believe they were. Delta Connection, from what I understand, are run under the auspices of Comair, and they are specifically mentioned in the article:

Quoting The Article:

On-time performance for all flights sold under the Delta brand at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport (including ASA and Comair) was 73.8 percent, essentially the same as AirTran Airways.

And this is from the Airtran article.

Personally, when I fly, I fly the cheapest. I don't care what color the airplane is painted. But what I *DO* know is that the last time I flew Delta, they managed to send my luggage the wrong way. They did have it to me later that evening.

Roger
Bring back the L-1011!
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5258
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:41 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 37):
By size, Delta operates several hundred more flights than Airtran. Therefore, of course there will be a higher cancellation rate. When FL is flying as many flights a month as DL(not anytime soon), then we can see who has the better cancellation rate, etc.

Wow...you can't even do basic math. This explains a lot about your ridiculous responses.

Let me put it to you this way. If Airtran flies 1,000 flights, they will cancel 14 of those flights on average. If Delta flies 1,000 flights, they will cancel 17 flights on average. That's what the cancellation rate means.

Statistically speaking, it's not all that significant, but that's what a rate means.
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
Let me put it to you this way. If Airtran flies 1,000 flights, they will cancel 14 of those flights on average. If Delta flies 1,000 flights, they will cancel 17 flights on average. That's what the cancellation rate means.

Maybe this will help Otto - If Delta has 2,000 flights (twice the size of AirTran as an example only) and AirTran has 1,000 flights, Delta will cancel 34 flights (1.7% of 2,000) and AirTran will cancel 14 flights (1.4% of 1,000). So, Delta cancels a higher PERCENTAGE of flights.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 1):
I don't think Airtran would have said anything, but DL was kind of asking for it.

Good for FL.
One Nation Under God
 
scoljet
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:10 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:19 am

I see both sides of this debacle. I live in Wichita, KS. (ICT) and Delta was a fairly strong carrier here providing service to ATL,CVG, and SLC. Wichita courted AirTran with huge gaurantees and loss protection while Delta received nothing! Next thing you know Delta cuts all service except crj's to ATL. Meanwhile AirTran drops our MDW service and cuts the number of flights daily to ATL. I'm not necessarily sticking up for DL but I know for a fact that AirTran serves a lot of DL's market with huge subsidies from the cities. Delta is on the ropes and I dont blame them for clinging to anything positive they can report.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2689
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Rdwelch (Reply 2):
Nasty. FL better watch out, you don't want to hit a giant when they are down, and aren't certain they'll get back up. If you're going to hit 'em, make sure they're going to stay down.

Delta is not a giant. Delta nowadays is shorthand for the "bankrupt estate of the corporation previously known as Delta Airlines". Apparently they just missed an opportunity to stay quiet.

If Delta was capable of squashing AirTran, it would have been done a long time ago. The presence of AirTran in Atlanta drains Delta of pricing power and profits - if AirTran didn't exist, Delta would be much better off.
Stop pop up ads
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am

RE: Air Tran (and Delta) Cheap Shots

Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting Scoljet (Reply 48):
I see both sides of this debacle. I live in Wichita, KS. (ICT) and Delta was a fairly strong carrier here providing service to ATL,CVG, and SLC. Wichita courted AirTran with huge gaurantees and loss protection while Delta received nothing! Next thing you know Delta cuts all service except crj's to ATL. Meanwhile AirTran drops our MDW service and cuts the number of flights daily to ATL. I'm not necessarily sticking up for DL but I know for a fact that AirTran serves a lot of DL's market with huge subsidies from the cities. Delta is on the ropes and I dont blame them for clinging to anything positive they can report.

The Wichita situation is a different issue, but it is noteworthy. Communities apply for government grants to entice carriers to operate service in markets that are either lacking service or need competition, i.e. low fares. Usually, subsidies only last a year or so, but never more than three. All the airlines get them, and Delta has many in other markets. Once this original subsidy ended, Wichita went to the community so they could continue to subsidize AirTran in the ICT-ATL market.

Having said that, federal regulations state that communities are not allowed to use airport revenues as subsidies, otherwise they can lose their federal funding. There is some question as to whether Wichita was doing that since the City Council and the Airport Authority contain many of the same people. Since the city decided to continue the subsidy to AirTran, Delta asked for a subsidy as well, was promptly turned down, and filed a greivance with the FAA, which has yet to give its final ruling.

In this situation, I appreciate Delta's frustration. It's one thing for a community to subsidize a new carrier in a competing, high-fare market for a short period of time (a year or two), but to make it indefinite is questionable. Sure, AirTran has caused fares to decrease considerably in Wichita, but Delta was the largest, most committed carrier in Wichita and the city council and airport turned its backs on them. So, they responded by cutting service - a bold move on DL's part.

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