cjpark
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Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:55 am

Texas Senator Hutchinson chaired a meeting of the North Texas Congressional Delegation to ask for them to support a legislative cease-fire from Texas lawmakers in the fight over the Wright Amendment.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/14001639.htm

Plan allows Fort Worth, Dallas to manage Wright fight

By MARIA RECIOSTAR-TELEGRAM WASHINGTON BUREAU
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
apodino
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:06 am

My only wish was that this happened 30 years ago when DFW first opened. This should have been handled locally from the start, and unfortunately its become a federal issue because congress chose to intervene. I hope both sides see its in the best interest to let everything be unrestricted, but I will respect whatever decision the cities reach jointly. I somehow fear however, that Southwest, or American, if they don't get their way, will not. I hope I am wrong.
 
ssides
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 1):
My only wish was that this happened 30 years ago when DFW first opened.

Well, depending on how you look at it, this issue was settled when DFW was planned. During the regulated days, when the CAB controlled the skies, DFW was planned with the understanding that, upon its completion, DAL would be closed. This was before Southwest Airlines even existed, however, and when time came to open up DFW, Southwest was able to argue that it shouldn't be subjected to the shutdown of DAL (WN was able to fly from DAL to markets within Texas, because CAB didn't have the power to regulate intrastate markets) because it wasn't around when the agreement to close DAL came about.

That all changed with deregulation; CAB no longer had the authority to require that interstate flights originate at DFW. Hence the Wright Amendment was developed.

So, depending on how you look at things, you could argue that this issue was settled long ago. Of course, it's much more complicated than that, especially with hindsight.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
texan
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting Cjpark (Thread starter):
Texas Senator Hutchinson

Just a quick little correction: it's Kay Bay Hutchison. Senator Hutchinson is from Kansas, I think. Kay Bay also has a slight conflict of interest, as her husband works for the DFW Airport bond committee.

However, I agree that it would be better to settle it locally. I don't think that'll happen, though. We shall see. Expect to see Sen. Frist (TN), Sen. Allard (CO), Sen. McCain (AZ), Sens. Ensign and Reid (NV), and Sen. Hagel (NE) to add amendments to exempt their states from the Wright Amendment during the current Congressional session.

Texan
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travelin man
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 3):
Expect to see Sen. Frist (TN), Sen. Allard (CO), Sen. McCain (AZ), Sens. Ensign and Reid (NV), and Sen. Hagel (NE) to add amendments to exempt their states from the Wright Amendment during the current Congressional session.

I hope Senator Feinstein (CA) can be added to that list....
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:25 am

OK, I'll bite. Now..... someone just waved their magic wand and Love is closed to airline traffic effective Jan 1st 2008(your not going to close it overnight). Herb and the gang goes where...DFW?
Where at DFW? They aren't a couple of dozen gates available to Southwest or any carrier for that matter.

Who pays for the move..the new facilities...hangers etc?

You are bright, Commavia and lean toward the finance side of airlines more then fleet makeup or routes like a lot of people at A-net.
I really would like to hear your comments on Southwest IF you got your way and Love shuts down to commercial traffic.
safe...oh, and you were right again..you're not my son.

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texan
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 8):
OK, I'll bite. Now..... someone just waved their magic wand and Love is closed to airline traffic effective Jan 1st 2008(your not going to close it overnight). Herb and the gang goes where...DFW?
Where at DFW?

Decreased schedule, intrastate frequencies dumped. 600 daily GA flights try to find new places to fly. ADS has one runway and is heavily used. It cannot handle all the flights. DFW has no fully staffed GA area. General Aviation at DFW does not have line guys available at all times, as they are contracted with the airlines. RBD? Dallas Executive? You've gotta be joking. What happens with the facility? The job loss? Where do the executives fly into? Not a good idea to shut down DAL.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 8):
Who pays for the move..the new facilities...hangers etc?

Didn't you know AA had volunteered to pay for it out of the genorous nature of their own heart?  Silly

Texan
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cjpark
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 5):
OK, I'll bite. Now..... someone just waved their magic wand and Love is closed to airline traffic effective Jan 1st 2008(your not going to close it overnight). Herb and the gang goes where...DFW?
Where at DFW? They aren't a couple of dozen gates available to Southwest or any carrier for that matter.

Who pays for the move..the new facilities...hangers etc?

First of all no one but WN should be responsible for the decision to build infrastucture at an airport they knew was limited by law. It was a bad business decision on their part. There are 22 un used gates at DFW ready for any takers. DFW has even offered free rent and money to any airline who wants to move in and take over the gates.

You are bright, Commavia and lean toward the finance side of airlines more then fleet makeup or routes like a lot of people at A-net.
I really would like to hear your comments on Southwest IF you got your way and Love shuts down to commercial traffic.
safe...oh, and you were right again..you're not my son.

First of all no one but WN should be responsible for the decision to build infrastucture at an airport they knew was limited by law. It was a bad business decision on their part. There are 22 un used gates at DFW ready for any takers. DFW has even offered free rent and money to any airline who wants to move in and take over the gates.

Quoting Texan (Reply 6):
Decreased schedule, intrastate frequencies dumped. 600 daily GA flights try to find new places to fly. ADS has one runway and is heavily used. It cannot handle all the flights. DFW has no fully staffed GA area. General Aviation at DFW does not have line guys available at all times, as they are contracted with the airlines. RBD? Dallas Executive? You've gotta be joking. What happens with the facility? The job loss? Where do the executives fly into? Not a good idea to shut down DAL.

The facility gets torn down and the land is sold by the City for redevelopement. I am pretty sure that the GA will find a place to go to. That is not a problem worth worrying about.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
texan
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:45 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 7):
The facility gets torn down and the land is sold by the City for redevelopement. I am pretty sure that the GA will find a place to go to. That is not a problem worth worrying about.

If we were talking C172s, then you are right. They'll use Mesquite, Arlington, etc. But, DAL is more than 80% jet traffic. They are the higher grossing customers, the ones who spend more money in the immediate area, the ones who pay premiums. In addition, they buy fuel and lots of it. DAL does not charge a landing fee for GA aircraft, but there is a fuel flowage fee. That is a few million dollars per year in lost revenue for the city just in fuel flowage fees. There will be less discretionary spending in Dallas and more in Addison, Irving, and Grapevine, losing the city millions more dollars. It'd be a big hit to the city and our revenues. Closing DAL is an idiotic idea that will not occur anytime in the near future.

So, I disagree with your premise that GA aircraft are not worth worrying about.

Texan
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stirling
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 7):
DFW has even offered free rent and money to any airline who wants to move in and take over the gates.

As long as they fly to destinations approved by DFW....oh boy.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 7):
I am pretty sure that the GA will find a place to go to. That is not a problem worth worrying about.

How do you figure?
I'm sure all those corporate types are going to love being shipped off to the already crowded Addison or inconvenient Red Bird.

Why is it SO important for Love to close?, when Tarrant County gets to keep Alliance, Meacham, and the majority of DFW?
Fair?

I will tell y'all right now, leaving it up to the locals to decide.... is what led to whole nonsense in the first place.
Duh. FAA mandate of 1966, "get your acts together or no more funding for either of you!" DFW airport is born.
End of Problem.
Right.
And my car runs on liquid chesse.

Love needs to stay open, and if it is open, Southwest is allowed in.

What does Dallas get in return for shutting down Love Field? The patent for cars that run on liquid cheese?

Hutchison has just pulled a fast one, or a STALL one....cause she knows dang well Congress is willing to act, NOW. Enter the gentleman from Tennessee.

This thing could be done and gone in a matter of months.

BUT! Hold on.
She also knows this is a 50 year old problem, so big, it is actually grown larger than the area itself. O'Kay Bailey is not a dumby, it is her plan for Dallas and Tarrant counties to slog this out indefinitely....effectively handing her good buddies DFW, and their good buddies AA, a victory...for now.

They are going to set a deadline....but not now, in a few months.
WTF? That's motivation?

This is horse crap people.
Delete this User
 
cjpark
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 9):
Why is it SO important for Love to close?, when Tarrant County gets to keep Alliance, Meacham, and the majority of DFW?
Fair?

Because it is probably the only way to settle this once and for all.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 9):
How do you figure?
I'm sure all those corporate types are going to love being shipped off to the already crowded Addison or inconvenient Red Bird.

You obviously have not thought this through have you. Open up Love to more commercial flights (the master plan is meaningless) and the GA will get pushed out anyway. Six one way half a dozen the other.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
satx
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting Texan (Reply 3):
Just a quick little correction: it's Kay Bay Hutchison.

Just a quick correction: It's Kay Bailey Hutchison. I should know, I've written her maybe one hundred times by now.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
texan
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 11):
Just a quick correction: It's Kay Bailey Hutchison.

I know, I call her Kay Bay because it's shorter  Smile And I really don't like her.

Texan
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satx
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:23 pm

Quoting Texan (Reply 12):
And I really don't like her.

Me neither. We've agreed on exactly one issue out of perhaps one hundred. The woman either doesn't get it or simply doesn't care to place her cushy job in any jeopardy just to do the right thing. She's bought, signed, and delivered. At least, that's my view of her.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
JonnyGT
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:28 pm

Kay Bailey Hutchison's posturing is pointless. Many senators are up for re-election this year, and I know for a fact many voters (Nebraska, specifically) are screaming for Wright's removal.
It's an easy move and would be looked upon as a significant positive in the eyes of constituents.

Look for Arizona, Nebraska, Tennessee, Nevada and hopefully California to be removed from the Wright Amendment this year.

[Edited 2006-03-03 04:29:05]

[Edited 2006-03-03 04:30:23]
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:32 pm

First,
What advantage is there to any party to stop working all political solutions? Since the other side won't stop, both sides should keep working the national if they really are looking out after their own interests.

Quoting Texan (Reply 3):
Expect to see Sen. Frist (TN), Sen. Allard (CO), Sen. McCain (AZ), Sens. Ensign and Reid (NV), and Sen. Hagel (NE) to add amendments to exempt their states from the Wright Amendment during the current Congressional session.

Any state whos senator doesn't keep pusuing their best interests is being foolish. I agree with most of your list, but wonder if Sen. Allard of CO would really pick WN over UA/F9? Do you know something I don't?

Also, I expect someone to propose legislation with their amendment amending the Wright amendment to allow for transfers/hubbing at any DAL connected airport. Otherwise, what's the point of AZ and NV adding their states to exempt status?

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 4):
I hope Senator Feinstein (CA) can be added to that list....

A CA senator help business? I could only wish!

FL would be much more likely than CA.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 7):
DFW has even offered free rent and money to any airline who wants to move in and take over the gates.

Any airline who effectively stepped in and within one year replaced DL. Even WN doesn't expand *that* fast!

Quoting Stirling (Reply 9):
They are going to set a deadline....but not now, in a few months.

I'd accept it much more if there was a deadline and if there was an agreed agenda. Until you have both, this is a stalling tactic to maintain the status quo. If you support the status quo, obviously you'll support a delaying tactic.

As I've posted before, I expect that WN *will* move their HDQ if within 24 months there isn't a compromise to Wright (or repeal) that they are happy with. Note: I don't think that will happen, but it will if Wright remains in force as it is today (or only a few more states are added sans transer through ticket rights).

Lightsaber
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JonnyGT
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:36 pm

If Southwest actually goes through with their threatened move, thousands of Dallas employees as well as the populace at large will want to taste Laura Miller's blood.

It's not simply that we enjoy their flights, but we love Southwest as a company and as a part of Dallas history.

Southwest is one of the largest taxpayers in Dallas and the city literally cannot afford to lose them.
 
stirling
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:20 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 10):
(the master plan is meaningless)

According to whom?

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 10):
GA will get pushed out anyway

And again, where are they going to go?
Delete this User
 
satx
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting JonnyGT (Reply 16):
Southwest is one of the largest taxpayers in Dallas and the city literally cannot afford to lose them.

Dallas doesn't need WN's HDQ, and WN's HDQ doesn't need Dallas. They're both big enough to leave the other one behind. In fact, I think the WA hurts Dallas residents and businesses much more than losing WN's HDQ would. If I lived in Dallas I would try my best to avoid flying AA. As it is I fly them less and less thanks to their LRTC and questionable business tactics. WN isn't the perfect business and they get overbearing as well sometimes, but I still think AA is far worse.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
N200WN
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:57 pm

Everyone's pushing for a "local solution" and yet it's a federal law that's causing the problem. Kay Bailey sucks.

If there is a compromise to the W/A I would hope that WN fights for two things: 1) thru ticketing and to all their destinations nationwide, and 2) be allowed to operate nonstop to some of their key "mega stations" such as LAS, PHX, MDW, and BWI. Either set the destinations in writing or give WN the option of choosing, lets say ten, new nonstop destinations outside of the currrent W/A perimeter.
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:27 pm

This should not be a unique federal issue (any more than any other AIP issue)--the CAB's original mandate, WN's federal suits and Wright's amendment made it one. The solution is to return DAL to the status of every other airport in the country. Here's how:

1) DALLAS GETS A ONE-YEAR PASS TO CLOSE DAL -- All it has to do is send the FAA a letter and whatever regulatory hurdles exist are waived (and Wright would be repealed immediately). If it can't stand the noise, pollution or competion with DFW, then close it.

2) PHASE OUT WRIGHT -- Thru ticketing immediately to address the competitive vacuum left by Delta, add TN,CO,AZ and NV in one year, everywhere in 2 years.

Then that's it. Send the rest of the country a postcard and let us know how it works out. As 7E7 has pointed out, avenues would still exist for Dallas to close/restrict DAL, they'd just have to be pursued in regular order with the FAA.

I'll admit that I believe Dallas (and by that I mean the community, not just leadership) would never close DAL--I think that ship sailed a long time ago and that Dallas simply changed its mind about the issue as the times changed.
 
txagkuwait
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:54 pm

>>I'll admit that I believe Dallas (and by that I mean the community, not just leadership) would never close DAL--I think that ship sailed a long time ago and that Dallas simply changed its mind about the issue as the times changed.<<

Neither Dallas nor Fort Worth had any intention of closing Love Field (or, in the case of Fort Worth, Meacham Field)....what they intended to do was close them to commercial traffic IF LEGALLY PERMISSIBLE.

As Judge William Mack Taylor, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans, and the Supreme Court pointed out after the fact, it ws not permissible.

My view is that Dallas should have a clear conscience - hey, Fort Wortrh, we tried...no can do. And then Dallas should proceed to act in a way that benefits the citizens of Dallas.

That's a key point. The citizens of Dallas. That does not necessarily mean the citizens of Fort Worth, Arlington, Hursteulessbedford, or White Settlement.

Every time I see the name of that town White Settlement I think of the play/film "A Raisin In The Sun." I'm not quite sure why. At any rate, I digress.

The citizens of Dallas are probably better served with an active, vibrant Love Field.

Giving Fort Worth or any other town a say in what goes on at Love Field strikes me as giving Rick Perry a say so in the governance of Rhode Island or giving Fidel Castro power to manage the affairs of the United States.

I'm not sure about you but I'm not quite ready to relinquish our sovereignty to some Godless Commie.

At any rate, it's time for Mayor Laura Miller to earn her pay. She was elected by the city of Dallas...not the city of Fort Worth or any place else.

You know, this is almost as interesting as the old TV game show with Groucho Marx (no relation to Karl, since we had been talking about Godless Commies). That show was called "You Bet Your Life." In this case, the Mayor gets to decide whether she keeps Southwest Airlines, with their 5000 some odd jobs in Dallas along with all the property taxes they pay on the aircraft domiciled there - or - she makes Fort Worth and Phoenix both very happy. That's it in a nutshell.

The options -

1. Total immediate (or phased over several years) elimination of Wright with immediate okay to thru ticketing

2. A 1500 mile perimeter rule or throwing in a few more states, coupled with immediate okay to thru ticketing

3. The status quo

4. Trying to legislatively oust Southwest from Love Field and try to circumvent the court ruling (however, no city or state law will do this, it will have to be a federal law, and this might be tough to do)

5. Close Love Field completely

If you are the Mayor of Dallas, either 4 or 5 will cause you to go down in history as the Mayor that lost the Dallas Cowboys, lost the Texas - OU weekend (probable), lost the headquarters of the nation's most successful air carrier and the 5th largest taxpayer in the city of Dallas. Not a great legacy.
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 21):
Neither Dallas nor Fort Worth had any intention of closing Love Field (or, in the case of Fort Worth, Meacham Field)....what they intended to do was close them to commercial traffic IF LEGALLY PERMISSIBLE.

I agree--moving all commercial service to DFW is where I meant Dallas had changed its mind. I would also stipulate that the letter to the FAA closing DAL come only from its owner -- the City of Dallas.
 
texan
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:19 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 15):
Any state whos senator doesn't keep pusuing their best interests is being foolish. I agree with most of your list, but wonder if Sen. Allard of CO would really pick WN over UA/F9? Do you know something I don't?

WN didn't just enter DEN to expand their market presence in the Rockies Wink Part of the deal is for the Colorado delegation to support the repeal of Wright. From what I understand, Senator Allard has been their main contact on this front.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:30 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 21):
If you are the Mayor of Dallas, either 4 or 5 will cause you to go down in history as the Mayor that lost the Dallas Cowboys, lost the Texas - OU weekend (probable), lost the headquarters of the nation's most successful air carrier and the 5th largest taxpayer in the city of Dallas. Not a great legacy.

Not only that, but from the Law of Unintended Consequences Department, we'd also then have a situation where her actions would send a message that Dallas really wasn't all that great a place to relocate/expand a business in. Those effects extend past just Southwest Airlines itself.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
txagkuwait
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:44 pm

>>I agree--moving all commercial service to DFW is where I meant Dallas had changed its mind. I would also stipulate that the letter to the FAA closing DAL come only from its owner -- the City of Dallas.<<

JustPlaneNutz:

I would argue that the city of Dallas did not change its mind. I would suggest that the courts changed Dallas' mind for them.

Alex Bickley was the City Attorney when the courtroom drama all went down, and he fought Southwest tooth-and-nail to force them over to DFW.

Whether you liked the outcome or not, anyone who observed the trial would have to conclude that Dallas left no stone unturned in trying to evict Southwest from Love Field.

The City Council even passed a law making it a criminal offense for a commercial airliner to take off or land at Love Field. The courts enjoined the city from ever enforcing that ordinance.

There are really only two ways for the city to evict Southwest from Love Field. One way would be to completely close Love Field as an airport. The other would be for Congress to pass a federal law barring commercial airline service there.

Neither scenario is particularly attractive or likely.
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 25):
Alex Bickley was the City Attorney when the courtroom drama all went down, and he fought Southwest tooth-and-nail to force them over to DFW.

But would they take such measures today? I think not, and that's where the "changed minds" comes into play.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:22 pm

Because you bit and obviously want a cat fight, I'll cool your jets:

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 5):
They aren't a couple of dozen gates available to Southwest or any carrier for that matter.

Who says they need a couple dozen? 18 or so won't do for now?

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 5):
Who pays for the move..the new facilities...hangers etc?

Who would pay to move them to Phoenix?

Quoting Stirling (Reply 17):
According to whom?

The Master Plan is based on Wright Ammendment restricted capacity. Lift Wright and the plan has to go back and have the demand model re-evaluated increasing the plans scope. Right now, other carriers can only go into DAL with RJ's which on a CASM basis cannot compete with a 737. Lifting Wright changes the competitive model and the forecasting picture.

Airfield capacity says 48 (+/-) gates.

Now back to discussing GA use, an agreement etc....

[Edited 2006-03-03 14:29:40]
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:41 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 27):
Who would pay to move them to Phoenix?

The dif is they already fly in and out of PHX. The scenario is Southwest WILL NOT fly in and out of DAL...its closed to commercial traffic.
Companies move HQ all the time. Paying for a HQ building and actual flight ops are two different things.

I used "a couple of dozen" as a figure of speech. I really haven't a clue how many gates Herb USES at DAL. The texans know this one.
safe  cool 
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texan
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 27):
Who would pay to move them to Phoenix?

The City of Phoenix. They would also give them large tax breaks. Same way Ft. Worth helped attract AA.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 28):
I really haven't a clue how many gates Herb USES at DAL.

Currently 14.

Texan
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 29):
The City of Phoenix. They would also give them large tax breaks. Same way Ft. Worth helped attract AA.

Same can be done at DFW, just pointing out the comparison with:

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 5):
Who pays for the move..the new facilities...hangers etc?

If the DFW Authority had half a brain, they'd propose it.
 
sllevin
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:50 am

Part of the law of unintended consequences in lifting Wright (and thus adding lots of flights to DAL) is that it totally feeds the NIMBYs.

"Give an inch, and they will take a mile" will say the NIMBYs -- and they'd be right. Future compromises for airports (both commercial and non-commercial) will become tougher as people will argue "a deal with aviation is no deal at all!"

Lots of small GA airports will find themselves bulldozed away -- since all this will point out that the only way to make aviation groups stick to their word is to bulldoze the airport and build on the empty space.

And all this just to line Southwest's pockets.

Steve
 
sllevin
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:50 am

Part of the law of unintended consequences in lifting Wright (and thus adding lots of flights to DAL) is that it totally feeds the NIMBYs.

"Give an inch, and they will take a mile" will say the NIMBYs -- and they'd be right. Future compromises for airports (both commercial and non-commercial) will become tougher as people will argue "a deal with aviation is no deal at all!"

Lots of small GA airports will find themselves bulldozed away -- since all this will point out that the only way to make aviation groups stick to their word is to bulldoze the airport and build on the empty space.

And all this just to line Southwest's pockets.

Steve
 
cjpark
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 29):
The City of Phoenix. They would also give them large tax breaks. Same way Ft. Worth helped attract AA.

They would be hard pressed to beat existing tax breaks that Dallas has all ready given WN. Think about it WN has a 10 Billion dollar fleet of aircraft (figure taken from page 22 of the 2004 10-K form) and all those buildings at DAL and all they are valued at for the City of Dallas to tax is 600 Million (figure provided by Dallas County Tax Appraisal District). And that is not counting the discount landing fees at DAL and the rest of the benefits that Dallas provides to WN.

It sure seems like Dallas should be getting more than 15 Mil a year from WN.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 33):
It sure seems like Dallas should be getting more than 15 Mil a year from WN.

Dallas collects a grand total of $0 from AA. Seems like at face value, WN is worth about $150000000 more than AA to Dallas.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 10):
Because it is probably the only way to settle this once and for all.

Drop a new $250 million dollar terminal in DAL and lift Wright and you have got yourself a permanent solution. Consumers win, DFW and DAL in full economic force so both cities and economies win.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
cjpark
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:48 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 34):
Dallas collects a grand total of $0 from AA. Seems like at face value, WN is worth about $150000000 more than AA to Dallas.

Dallas should be collecting a hell of a lot more from WN in taxes.

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 34):
Drop a new $250 million dollar terminal in DAL and lift Wright and you have got yourself a permanent solution. Consumers win, DFW and DAL in full economic force so both cities and economies win.

Not gonna happen. But you are allowed to dream.

Why not keep Wright and send WN to DFW for free? Now that makes sense.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:46 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 27):
Now back to discussing GA use

Okie Dokie.

Average Daily NON-Commercial Activity (A take-off or landing)

DAL-452
ADS-405
TKI-327
RDB-255
--------
AFW-291
FTW-255
(DFW-18 out of 1966 total ops--something leaving or arriving every 43 seconds)


ADS is tight on space, and averages an operation once every 3 and a half minutes (assuming 24hr operations).
Nothing more is going to fit into Addison.
So much has been built up around it that the usable length of the runway for landings is as little as 6220' of the total 7200' Rwy 15.

Red Bird (Executive) and Collin County don't have the infrastructure or space to handle these flights. Red Bird (sorry, it will always be Red Bird to me) has mucho space, two runways, but not much else in the way of being capable of absorbing even half of DAL's operations...
I guess the new name (Executive-Ha!) was a case of, "If we rename it, they will come". (?)

Does the city want to build out either airport, (RBD & ADS--TKI doesn't count as it isn't in Dallas County or City--so why divert the revenue?) to handle the 452 daily NON-Southwest flights that will need to go somewhere?

Those who want to close DAL cannot have the best interests of Dallas at heart...how could you? To be a Dallas resident and advocating the closing of this airport smacks of something else; something personal....which has no place in the discussion.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but think for a moment what is at stake here...not the "couldas", "wouldas", and "shouldas", but, what does it represent to Dallas TODAY? Think of the big picture, and not in vendettas.

What does GA bring to the table in revenue?
Is this not an important sum of cash? And why would the city of Dallas just want to piss this away?

It may not be the best neighbor to the dominant airspace of DFW, but unless Dallas wants to spend a few million to build another or expand an airport, it's pretty dang lucky that the legal *boondoggle* of Southwest forced DAL to remain open.

Where would be today?
Would DFW been forced to allow GA?
Would another GA airport been developed say in Mesquite or Garland?

Love will remain open, now, how do we make it work?
Delete this User
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:02 pm

Quoting Texan (Reply 8):
That is a few million dollars per year in lost revenue for the city just in fuel flowage fees

A few million which has to, by FEDERAL LAW, get pumped right back into DAL. The city is NOT ALLOWED to take airport revenue for non-airport usage. If the city has done that, they should be heavily fined, and lose DAL's certifcation.

Quoting Texan (Reply 23):
WN didn't just enter DEN to expand their market presence in the Rockies Wink Part of the deal is for the Colorado delegation to support the repeal of Wright. From what I understand, Senator Allard has been their main contact on this front.

If AA had been doing similar political dealings, you'd be screaming bloody murder.

Quoting Texan (Reply 6):
Decreased schedule, intrastate frequencies dumped

Newsflash:
DAL, and the NIMBY's surrounding it like DALNeighbor's signature used to say, have it "limited" to 250 flights per day (illegally, I might add). Currently, Southwest is at 120, with a quick look at Flytecomm. CO and AA also around 30 combined for a total right now of 150 commercial flights per day, leaving 100 open "slots" if you will.

WN/DAL has written alot of checks with their mouth that their butt can't pay right now it seems. They will owe OMA, BNA (MEM??), DEN, and LAS flights. They will then be obligated to serve PHX, Some California and Florida destinations, MDW, and BWI.

Also, opening the floodgates will possibly lead to numerous other airlines coming in... your minor players in the metroplex, airlines like USAirways and so forth.

Suddenly, DAL is waaaaay over that 250 limit. OR, WN has to cut the intrastate flights. Either way, someone gets screwed. The "DALNeighbors" or all those "Little guys" throughout Texas and neighboring states who helped make WN the law-abusing empire it is today. Do you honestly think 8x AMA, or 6x ELP, 8x LBB, or 6x MAF is going to last? I've got some oceanfront property in Oklahoma for you then.

Sure, repeal the Wright Amendment, and screw everybody in every direction possible... all to help put some dollars in Herb, Colleen, and Gary's pockets.
 
ckfred
Posts: 4734
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:03 pm

This is a little off the subject, but if the WA was repealed in full, how many addtional flights could WN add at DAL?

If WN wanted to start service to SEA, LAS, PHX, LAX, MDW, MHT, PVD, BWI, DEN, TPA, FLL, and MCO, could it add service to these cities without cutting any of its current schedule at DAL?

It seems to me that this is a question of both having enough airplanes and enough gates at DAL to handle the additional schedule.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:07 pm

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 38):

If WN wanted to start service to SEA, LAS, PHX, LAX, MDW, MHT, PVD, BWI, AND CURRENT: Denver - International (DEN / KDEN), USA - Colorado">DEN, TPA, FLL, and MCO, could it add service to these cities without cutting any of its current schedule at DAL?

Not to give the frequencies they will want/need, AND appease the 250 Limit. And don't forget they'll also owe BNA and OMA flights from backdoor political deals. See the post right above your's for detail.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:09 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 5):
They aren't a couple of dozen gates available to Southwest or any carrier for that matter.

There are more open gates at DFW than there are gates being used by WN at DAL currently.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:59 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 37):
Suddenly, DAL is waaaaay over that 250 limit. OR, WN has to cut the intrastate flights. Either way, someone gets screwed. The "DALNeighbors" or all those "Little guys" throughout Texas and neighboring states who helped make WN the law-abusing empire it is today. Do you honestly think 8x AMA, or 6x ELP, 8x LBB, or 6x MAF is going to last? I've got some oceanfront property in Oklahoma for you then.

Sure, repeal the Wright Amendment, and screw everybody in every direction possible... all to help put some dollars in Herb, Colleen, and Gary's pockets.

Tornado,

You seem to be revving above your max RPMs.... And now you're casting Herb, Colleen, and Gary as the E-vil Corporate Robber-Barons? Pluh-eze.. Yeah sure
(Throttle back before you blow a gasket.)

As far as flights go post-repeal (and this has been mentioned before) the "flow" of aircraft would be tweaked such that the present "round-trips" (i.e. DAL-ABQ-DAL) would give way to something like DAL-ABQ-LAX (or LAS, or SEA, or OAK, etc. etc.) so that all flights to/from DAL were optimized to provide as much service within the available of operations. Yes, some new non-stops would be added, but I'd venture to say that more service would be possible from the new (and long overdue) ability to thru-ticket...

You need to be waxing your surfboard for use in Oklahoma...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
cjpark
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 41):
You seem to be revving above your max RPMs.... And now you're casting Herb, Colleen, and Gary as the E-vil Corporate Robber-Barons? Pluh-eze..

Yes that is a fair charactarization. The region has been trying to get WN to play in our chosen airport for 30 years. But WN always seems to run to its own agenda first then the region well never.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
texan
Posts: 4060
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 37):
If AA had been doing similar political dealings, you'd be screaming bloody murder.

 redflag 

It is part of doing business, whether it is AA, WN, UA, DL, whomever. See, I understand why AA is fighting the repeal of the Wright Amendment. It makes perfect business sense, and if I were running AA I'd probably do the same thing. I just disagree with their position. I've attempted to make this clear. If your question was, do I see where AA is coming from? Yes I do. Do I agree with their position that the Wright Amendment should stay in place and do I think they are making strong, logical arguments? No, I don't. There it is in a nutshell. Now sit back down, little boy. You know what happens when you assume, don't you?  Wink

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 37):
Also, opening the floodgates will possibly lead to numerous other airlines coming in... your minor players in the metroplex, airlines like USAirways and so forth.

Which airlines? I can only think of about 3 that might consider moving ops to DAL. Most are content with DFW, have a strong FF base out of there, and are closer to the destinations of the majority of the FF base. Believe it or not, DAL is not going to turn into LGA.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 37):
WN has to cut the intrastate flights. Either way, someone gets screwed. The "DALNeighbors" or all those "Little guys" throughout Texas and neighboring states who helped make WN the law-abusing empire it is today. Do you honestly think 8x AMA, or 6x ELP, 8x LBB, or 6x MAF is going to last?

Where have I ever claimed that WN would not think about reducing intrastate flying? They'd probably knock a couple more daily off HOU, SAT, and AUS, maybe a single daily ABQ, ELP, and AMA. Tell me, Tornado, aside from their being strong business markets, why does WN have so many flights to HOU, AUS, SAT, ABQ? Connection opportunities. I've done it many times throughout the years, just wait another hour or so at the airport. Know why MAF, AMA, LBB, OKC, TUL, LIT have strong service out of DAL? Let me give you a hint: there is only one total city from AMA, LBB, and MAF combined outside of the Wright Amendment states to which people can connect, and only one daily flight from each city. Those three cities, as well as OKC, TUL, and LIT have multiple daily flights from DAL because they make money! Imagine that, a company examining their yields and putting the airplanes where it makes sense! Maybe if some other airlines did this they wouldn't be in or close to BK yet Smile

So, you have mischaracterized what I have said. You have lied about my motives and beliefs. You have wrongly commented on which cities would lose the most service from DAL if Wright is repealed. And you have laid down no proof that WN is a "law-abusing" empire. Congratulations, you have accomplished absolutely nothing! Judges, what does he win?

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
incitatus
Posts: 2712
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 43):
Those three cities, as well as OKC, TUL, and LIT have multiple daily flights from DAL because they make money! Imagine that, a company examining their yields and putting the airplanes where it makes sense!

That begs a question. If the services from Dallas Love to Kansas City and St. Louis on Southwest lose money, would Southwest keep them just to make a point?
Stop pop up ads
 
texan
Posts: 4060
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 44):
That begs a question. If the services from Dallas Love to Kansas City and St. Louis on Southwest lose money, would Southwest keep them just to make a point?

If they lost money, probably not. Business sense would dictate cutting at least the frequency on the routes until they reached profitable levels.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
incitatus
Posts: 2712
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 34):
Dallas collects a grand total of $0 from AA. Seems like at face value, WN is worth about $150000000 more than AA to Dallas.

I don't understand your fixation with the city of Dallas. It's about 20% of the population of the Dallas metro area. It's the most violent, corrupt, dirty part of it. It's a sink hole for public money. It has the worst public schools. Maybe is it just to make your Southwest statistics look neat? The contribution of Southwest in terms of air service to the area compared to American's is negligible. And even if the W.A. was repealed, Southwest would still have a small operation at Dallas Love.
Stop pop up ads
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
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RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 44):
That begs a question. If the services from Dallas Love to Kansas City and St. Louis on Southwest lose money, would Southwest keep them just to make a point?

That is American's modus operandi.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 37):
Also, opening the floodgates will possibly lead to numerous other airlines coming in

And you base this theory on what, historical precedent?
Or just empty hysteria?

I am confused.
One minute we hear Southwest is committing a mortal sin for operating, and wanting to expand at Love Field.

And then the very next thing we hear, is that if Wright is abolished, every airline under the sun is going to jump ship for Love.

Wouldn't that in some small way validate what Southwest is fighting for?

And if we did see airlines leave DFW for Love, maybe two, three at the most, your big boys will stay right where they are.

But here's the chewy surprise center of the Tootsie-Roll Pop.
As soon as Wright is gone, more airlines will enter the market, AT DFW!
Yes, DFW. For every airline that leaves, expect a new one to take its place.
The playing field, just like that becomes a lot more level.

Whatever airlines currently do not operate at DFW will find new reason to reconsider. Those with limited or token operations will see cause to expand.

And that children, is what American Airlines is afraid of most.
Delete this User
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:45 am

[quote=Stirling,reply=47]That is American's modus operandi.[/quote

 rotfl   veryhappy  You're good.....I like that.

Matter of fact, I liked all of post 47.
 champagne  safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA

Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 41):

Tornado,

You seem to be revving above your max RPMs.... And now you're casting Herb, Colleen, and Gary as the E-vil Corporate Robber-Barons? Pluh-eze.. Yeah sure
(Throttle back before you blow a gasket.)

What's wrong OPNL, no valid points left so you start making analogies with high-revving engines? I love it, when all else fails, spin up some weird analogy that makes no sense.

Quoting Texan (Reply 43):
Which airlines? I can only think of about 3 that might consider moving ops to DAL.

Ok, 3 airlines with services to 2 or 3 hubs each is another 30 flights at DAL... bringing them that much closer to the magic 250. I'll go on the limb and say which airlines: CO, US, FL. Oh, B6 might stick their nose in too.

Quoting Texan (Reply 43):
Where have I ever claimed that WN would not think about reducing intrastate flying? They'd probably knock a couple more daily off HOU, SAT, and AUS, maybe a single daily ABQ, ELP, and AMA. Tell me, Tornado, aside from their being strong business markets, why does WN have so many flights to HOU, AUS, SAT, ABQ? Connection opportunities.

Well hmmm..... OPNL says service would grow because of connection opportunities, you say they'd knock a few more frequencies off of each city because they're nothing more than connection opportunities. Well, at least one of you two isn't blinded by his employers rhetoric.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 47):
And you base this theory on what, historical precedent?
Or just empty hysteria?

I am confused.
One minute we hear Southwest is committing a mortal sin for operating, and wanting to expand at Love Field.

And then the very next thing we hear, is that if Wright is abolished, every airline under the sun is going to jump ship for Love.

Wouldn't that in some small way validate what Southwest is fighting for?

And if we did see airlines leave DFW for Love, maybe two, three at the most, your big boys will stay right where they are.

Hysteria? Nope. Facts that DAL is immensely cheaper and airlines like US just have a token operation at DFW so it's no big deal anyways? Yep. What's your point that Southwest is getting blasted for operating at Love but then everyone else will jump ship TO Love? If federal laws are bent to help out Southwest, why should all of Southwest's competitors not come over to join in the dirt cheap airport? That would be smart business sense for all those other airlines... why let your competitor bask in the benefits alone?? It does validate what Southwest is fighting for... having a HUGE unfair advantage on the competition.


I love how when you guys were presented with something damning, you couldn't even get your own stories straight. Cute, I like it.

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