TinkerBelle
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Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:20 pm

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au.../0,5744,18308533%255E23349,00.html

No kidding. Give Branson this idea and he'll start talking about putting up a Walmart up there... and I doubt there's empty space the size of a 737 up there.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
CV747
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:25 pm

OHHH God!!

How many times have we seen Boeing or Airbus showing great ideas about flying duty free, big relaxation areas on board, bars, restaurants, etc.

Then when the first plane goes in operation it has a "Sardine" configuration to haul as many as possible.

I am really tired of these high flying ideas. Wonder what they smoke before they launch these statements...
 
mlsrar
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:27 pm

These overhead berths were part of the original 747X program. There were additional provisions for overhead cart storage, and an expanded crew rest facility as well.

I don't remember any significant interest six years ago.
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EI321
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:31 pm

Iva a feeling none of this is gonna happen. What would be the weight implications?
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Mlsrar (Reply 2):
I don't remember any significant interest six years ago.

I doubt there will be any now.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 3):
Iva a feeling none of this is gonna happen.

No way this will happen. Airlines are too greedy.

Quoting CV747 (Reply 1):
Wonder what they smoke before they launch these statements...

Whatever it is must be made out of composite material..... although Airbus doesn't think it's quality enough  biggrin 
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
NAV20
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:49 pm

Actually, it's a 'real' option for the airlines - they've got the spare space and they can afford to offer economy passengers a small 'thwart-ship' bunk. Looks a bit like you'd be getting into your coffin, though!

Scroll down to 'Going Inter-Continental' and the bit about the 'Skyloft' and you can watch a video.

http://www.boeing.com/randy/

Thing is, though, I know which configuration I'd like personally, but it'll never happen again. It was a trans-USA 707, six-across with plenty of legroom, that was still fitted out for bringing guys back from tours of duty in Vietnam. The last two rows of seats had been removed and galleys with infra-red grills had been put in; apparently the guys were hungry for nothing but beef once they were on their way home.

First and last time I've ever been asked, "How would you like your steak done, sir?" on an aeroplane....

[Edited 2006-03-03 15:51:14]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
DavidT
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:54 pm

You can't put seats up in the loft space, meaning that the proposals are very realistic IMO. I'd love to see BA put some sort of airbourne terraces lounge up there, accessible only to gold card members Big grin
 
flyinghippo
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting CV747 (Reply 1):
Then when the first plane goes in operation it has a "Sardine" configuration to haul as many as possible.

I'm confident that airlines will not put another cattle class in the attic of 748, or anything that comes close to regular seats, no matter which class. (i.e. Airlines will not be able to fit 40 "extra" passengers in addition to the regular pax seating)

As for sleeping berths, I'd imagine it would be available for Y or Y+ passengers, since F and C class seats these days are more than comfortable enough. If they can fit 40 sleeping "pods" up there, 40 Y class passengers who are willing to pay can go up there when they want to take a nap, watch a movie, or read their novel. Their seats in the main cabin could actually be quite small with little pitch since they have the bed available for them, thus airlines can fit a couple more regular seats.

However, I do see a problem with this... Will this "sleeping pod in the attic" be certified? What if 40 passengers are sleeping up there and something happens, the aircraft makes an emergency landing where they do not have a chance to come down (very unlikely.. but..) Would they have enough time to get down to exit? Or would Boeing have to design an emergency exit door for those 40 or so pax?

Putting galleries up there would probably require an elevator, which adds a lot of weight, as well as the attic needs to be reinforced so it can sustain the weight of the galley.

Overall, I think it's a great idea and a possible revenue generating concept for airlines... But will it come to reality? We'll have to wait and see...
 
Ken777
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:22 am

Airlines are always going to be looking for new ways to generate revenues and bunk beds for Y pax is a pretty good idea. The other factor is "what is the competition doing?" for First and Business. If they are providing a nicer bed for premium pax then you will match it or loose high paying pax.

Luxury 748i "lofts" for premium pax would also put pressure on the airlines to make the premium areas on their 380s a bit better.
 
macc
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:08 am

excuse me, how big must the unused space on a 747 be thhat there is place enough for 40 suites, or a gym, or an office?? and if there is, why dont they pack more seats into it???

and what has the manufacturer to do with fare calculation when it comes to the beds? guess thats the airlines business.

nonsense

[Edited 2006-03-03 17:09:23]
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
Poitin
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Mlsrar (Reply 2):
These overhead berths were part of the original 747X program. There were additional provisions for overhead cart storage, and an expanded crew rest facility as well.

I don't remember any significant interest six years ago.

Hey, maybe they can form a "Mile High Club," complete with little smilie faces  cheerful  to show you are member. I think that would sell, particularly on long hauls. Big grin
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TinkerBelle
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 10):
Hey, maybe they can form a "Mile High Club," complete with little smilie faces to show you are member. I think that would sell, particularly on long hauls.

Not unless F/A's are involved.  biggrin 
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andessmf
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 10):
Hey, maybe they can form a "Mile High Club

Hilarious, I told my wife yesterday that IMHO, these cabins could happen, and she said 'Then I will join the...' You get the idea.

Please God, let this become reality.  pray 
 
sparkingwave
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:30 am

Skylofts are an idea whose time has come.

The unused space is already being used for crew rests in 777 upper spaces, so the idea is completely possible and good practical use of otherwise unused space. An "attic" will offer more privacy than first or business class beds in the main cabins of either the main or upper deck hump in the 747, and either level in the A380.

I can't believe what a potential coup this would be, if it succeeds. The marketing potential would be tremendous:

honeymoon suites
valentine's day flights
hospital care for sick passengers
peaceful and quiet, zen sleep environment
new frequent flyer mile awards for skysuites
breakfast in bed

Now, only if they could put portholes in the ceilings. Then it would be as romantic as well as very wested.

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travelin man
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:38 am

I thought this was the most interesting quote:

The Boeing executive had other good news for travellers, predicting that the introduction of the A380 would cause fares to crash on the kangaroo route.

Boeing expects the number of seats on the route to rise sharply, with up to six airlines servicing Australia planning to introduce the double-decker planes.

"Traditionally, when you flood a market with a lot of competitors and a lot of seats, fares drop significantly," Mr Baseler said.


Is this a not-so-subtle reminder to airlines regarding the potential profit implications of "flooding" a market with seats? (i.e. a veiled "warning" about what buying the A380 means?)

I'm just curious why a Boeing executive would tout the falling fares that an A380 would theoretically bring.
 
A319XFW
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:30 am

I reckon what we'll see is that space being filled by galleys, so the airlines can put more seats in.
But I suppose it's a trade-off of between what the 'skysuites' cost and what the profit from extra seats would be.

We saw similar concepts with the A380 and does anyone know if that's happening? But the airlines are keeping their A380 cabins very secret...
 
Glom
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:28 am

It remains to be seen whether the vision of the Skyloft will be realised, but I'd put more money on that than on the lush extras touted by Airbus for the A380. Why? Because extras on the A380 the space for those hypothetical extras will likely be filled with seats. The Skyloft on the other hand can't be used for seats so essentially it is space that might as well be used for something good.
 
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AA777223
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:34 am

I think it is odd that everyone is so pessemistic about the possibility of this occuring. I realize there would be a weight imposition, but the profit potential would outweigh, I would think, those implifications. The thing people keep forgetting, is they are not taking away previous passenger seating space to do this, and the space is too small for seating anyway. That is what makes this different than previous plans to put "berths on Board", apart from the 747-X, of course. This is just the sort of thing airlines look for when they want to increase revenue.
Think about it though, like, every single inch of that plane, will be packed with passenger space. It does kinda make me nervous. Everytime I see crash pictures, and the plane is ripped apart, it makes me think about if not only the passenger cabin, but the crown were packed with people... Well, that could just be really bad. If they do make these a reality, let's just hope that never happens.
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting Macc (Reply 9):
excuse me, how big must the unused space on a 747 be thhat there is place enough for 40 suites, or a gym, or an office?? and if there is, why dont they pack more seats into it???

Airlines can't put seats in the aft part of the JumboJet's upper deck because of evacuation requirements. Therefore the space currently goes unused. The only substantial cost for an airline would be the additional fuel needed to carry the weight of whatever is installed up there.
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 18):
Airlines can't put seats in the aft part of the JumboJet's upper deck because of evacuation requirements. Therefore the space currently goes unused. The only substantial cost for an airline would be the additional fuel needed to carry the weight of whatever is installed up there.

Your statement is a little contradictory. If by 'whatever they put up there' you mean passengers (whether sleeping or doing whatever), it comes back to the same evacation problems.
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 19):

Your statement is a little contradictory. If by 'whatever they put up there' you mean passengers (whether sleeping or doing whatever), it comes back to the same evacation problems.

I meant the bunks, floors, doors, curtains, reinforcing, IFE, etc., not the passengers. The passengers would be required to be downstairs (or in the forward upper deck, which has emergency evacuation doors) below perhaps 20,000 foot elevation.
 
AviationAddict
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:31 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 14):
Is this a not-so-subtle reminder to airlines regarding the potential profit implications of "flooding" a market with seats? (i.e. a veiled "warning" about what buying the A380 means?)

I'm just curious why a Boeing executive would tout the falling fares that an A380 would theoretically bring.

It's all PR baby! Everything these companies do is all about putting a good spin on things, just like the government. Boeing probably hopes that speaking kindly towards Airbus will make people say, "hey, Boeing is a pretty classy organization." But I garuntee you'll only see one company say nice things about the other when the other company has screwed up (Airbus has had a few minor issues as of late [the A380 wing failure, questionable China order]). Those issues are nothing to be worried about, as everyone on this site knows, but the uninformed public just reads about a wing failure and starts to wonder about Airbus, then they see this Boeing guy saying nice things and the wheels start to turn. Just wait, eventually Boeing will mess up and if Airbus has it's A game (which I'm sure it will) it'll put a PR sping on the incident too.
 
aaden
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:19 pm

i love to see it fly

Quoting DavidT (Reply 6):
You can't put seats up in the loft space, meaning that the proposals are very realistic IMO. I'd love to see BA put some sort of airbourne terraces lounge up there, accessible only to gold card members

don't doubt boeing maybe they can find away...
 
jcded
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:27 pm

I do think this will work because it does not cut into revenue generating seats.

hypothetically speaking (though on a.net thats the standard)
what do you guys think if they also started to offer this on the 777. The cabin crew rests are in the front (for flight deck) and in the rear (for cabin crew), in between there is space that is unused. Could we see this on 777 in the future.
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:16 pm

Quoting Jcded (Reply 23):
what do you guys think if they also started to offer this on the 777. The cabin crew rests are in the front (for flight deck) and in the rear (for cabin crew), in between there is space that is unused. Could we see this on 777 in the future.

No, there is not enough space to put passenger bunks overhead in the B777. However, I do expect to see them in Y3, the replacement for the B777-300 and B747.
 
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PipoA380
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:12 pm

I remember that A380 offered this on the bottom floor along with a restaurant.... We read it all and nothing will ever happen, except in VIP planes if there are ever any with the 380.

No, Airlines are not greedy, they are making huge losses and see long haul-haul aircrafts as cash cows. So why not exagerate that effect and let even more money come-in? That's their point anyway. Too much people on a.net think that airlines are making things to make us members happy... sorry to tell you guys it's not the way it is! Big grin

Boeing offers this just like Airbus did it with the 380 because they want to offer something "similar" to show companies what they are capable of, and that if ever they needed anything, they have it available. That's why they make it. If anyone ever uses it anyway, it's truly a miracle!

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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:20 pm

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 25):
I remember that A380 offered this on the bottom floor

The difference here is that the Airbus version uses cargo volume. The Boeing version uses space that would otherwise go unused. Boeing still has a weight penalty if these are installed, but not a space penalty (except for the stairs).
 
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CCA
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:39 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 24):
No, there is not enough space to put passenger bunks overhead in the B777.


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Looks like there is space for bunks if you ask me Big grin
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting CCA (Reply 27):
Looks like there is space for bunks if you ask me

There is certainly space for bunks. The problem is that there is not enough space for passengers. The aisle is too narrow, the stairs are too steep, etc. It would not get the approval of the certifying authorities.
 
rolfen
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:20 pm

Dont be so quick to scrap this idea... beds, as opposed to lounges, bars, etc... take up little space. I believe you can actually cram more passengers in stacked beds then in seats. It's a question of statistics... how many passengers will be sleeping and how many will be sitting? If you can solve that and make sure that most of the seats and most of the beds are taken, then we might see beds.
rolf
 
A319XFW
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:23 pm

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 29):
Dont be so quick to scrap this idea... beds, as opposed to lounges, bars, etc... take up little space. I believe you can actually cram more passengers in stacked beds then in seats. It's a question of statistics... how many passengers will be sleeping and how many will be sitting? If you can solve that and make sure that most of the seats and most of the beds are taken, then we might see beds.

The problem with that is, that you'd also need seats for the passengers for take-off and landing, as they have to be strapped in for that and it'd be hard to strap yourself in on a bed!
 
QFA380
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:34 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 11):
Not unless F/A's are involved



Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 11):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 10):
Hey, maybe they can form a "Mile High Club," complete with little smilie faces to show you are member. I think that would sell, particularly on long hauls.

Not unless F/A's are involved.

Have you has a look at www.lynxjet.com yet. I got a Mile High Club card in the mail this morning and I had to explain to mum what it was and why it had a false address on it.

Whats the point of people putting this stuff on websites when everone knows (except the people that don't ) that it will never happen. I can remember when they were saying the A380 would have Maccas, a casino waterfall and drinking lounge and not one airline will be putting any of that stuff into their A380's.

Just stupid.
 
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CCA
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:51 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 28):
The aisle is too narrow, the stairs are too steep, etc. It would not get the approval of the certifying authorities.

How wide does the aisle have to be? How steep is too steep. I'm sure Boeing have covered this, I doubt it will be certified for take off and landing which means it won't be required to have the same standards for an evacuation nor will it require seats like the 777 Cockpit crew rest area which is certified for take off and landing.

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[Edited 2006-03-04 12:56:41]
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rolfen
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:01 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 30):

The problem with that is, that you'd also need seats for the passengers for take-off and landing, as they have to be strapped in for that and it'd be hard to strap yourself in on a bed!

Actually crew rest bunks in the 777 have straps on them, it's necessary for the resting crewmembers not to go airborne during turbulence (what a bad way to wake up Big grin ).
rolf
 
Devilfish
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 30):
The problem with that is, that you'd also need seats for the passengers for take-off and landing, as they have to be strapped in for that and it'd be hard to strap yourself in on a bed!



Quoting CCA (Reply 32):
I doubt it will be certified for take off and landing

Weren't there skybeds already certified for take-off and landing offered on the 744s when it first came around?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 31):
Whats the point of people putting this stuff on websites when everone knows (except the people that don't ) that it will never happen.



Quoting QFA380 (Reply 31):
Just stupid.

So that people here on A.net would have something to talk about, just like you're doing now.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
A319XFW
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 34):
Quoting A319XFW (Reply 30):
The problem with that is, that you'd also need seats for the passengers for take-off and landing, as they have to be strapped in for that and it'd be hard to strap yourself in on a bed!

Quoting CCA (Reply 32):
I doubt it will be certified for take off and landing

Weren't there skybeds already certified for take-off and landing offered on the 744s when it first came around?

I don't know - perhaps someone else more familiar with them could say? But I would find it odd lying in a bed for take-off or landing!
Unless you can somehow change them into seats like first class seats?
 
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CCA
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:49 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 34):
Weren't there skybeds already certified for take-off and landing offered on the 744s when it first came around?

Yes but that's why "please place your seats in the upright position, footrest is stowed, table is folded away, TV has been put away............."

There is actually a little light on the skybed type of seats that when illuminated means the seat is in the correct position for take-off and landing.
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Takes On Airbus Lying Down

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 35):
I would find it odd lying in a bed for take-off or landing!
Unless you can somehow change them into seats like first class seats?

These beds will not be available for takeoff and landing. Each passenger must have a regular seat.

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