AC330
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SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:32 pm

I know Singapore Airlines was recently denied access to the Sydney - Los Angeles route, which makes me wonder...Air Canada just announced that in 2007 they will start YYZ-LAX-SYD service. Why is AC allowed with no trouble to launch this route?? Does this have something to do with the Open Skies agreement between Canada and the US??

AC330
 
9252fly
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:43 pm

There is a thread on this topic which makes reference to AC 5th freedom rights. The title is,"AC announces YYZ-LAX-SYD". You ought to find your questions answered there.
 
zvezda
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:51 pm

AC vs. SQ should be decided by the market, not by governments.
 
juventus
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:50 pm

I wonder that as well. Qantas viewed Singapore as a huge threat, but they don't seem to care about Air Canada. WHY???????? I'm sure they rather not have AC on the route, but they don't seem bother that much. SQ plans to keep on trying, game is not over.
 
juventus
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:13 pm

Another question. Why is everyone so focused on LAX-SYD? Why not SFO-SYD?
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting AC330 (Thread starter):
Why is AC allowed with no trouble to launch this route??



Quoting Juventus (Reply 3):
WHY????????

Well, SQ probably doesn't think AC will be a huge threat and seeing AC's aircraft from the outside today, I don't blame them  duck 
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:41 pm

My reading of the Canada- Aus. bi-lateral agreement allows Canada 5th-Freedom rights through SFO.
I assume therefore that this will need to be re-negotiated to substitute LAX for SFO.
Read it for yourselves at
http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/air-aerien/agreements/html/australia_e.html
 
EnviroTO
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:55 pm

I don't read it that way. It says the allowed intermediate points are Fiji, Tahiti, Honolulu, San Francisco, a point to be agreed. So the one point to be agreed needs to be set to LAX and SFO would still be permitted regardless. It probably would be an easy sell between Canada and Austrailia so have that intermediate point selected as LAX because of the equal benefit to Qantas. If Qantas is to run a YYZ route they are most likely to fly via LAX as well.
 
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zeke
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 7):
If Qantas is to run a YYZ route they are most likely to fly via LAX as well.

Think QF used to be via HNL in a 763ER.

Both have been doing code share along the SYD-LAX-YVR route.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 6):
I assume therefore that this will need to be re-negotiated to substitute LAX for SFO.

My reading is "Points to be named by either Contracting Party may be changed on 6 months notice given to the other Contracting Party.", just notification, no apparent need for negotiation.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
accargo
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 5):
Well, SQ probably doesn't think AC will be a huge threat and seeing AC's aircraft from the outside today, I don't blame them

But AC will not be using the acft you saw today now will it? It will be using brand new 777-200LR with J (business) class Pods (think Virgin and Air NZ) and AVOD in every seat.

AC will not be competing against SQ on the LAX-SYD route, it will be competing with QF, UA and NZ. It's Y and J products will compete just fine with them.
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting Accargo (Reply 9):
But AC will not be using the acft you saw today now will it? It will be using brand new 777-200LR with J (business) class Pods (think Virgin and Air NZ) and AVOD in every seat.

Well, I personally would care less coz I know the facts but think about the old lady sitting next to me who think because the plane looks beat up it's unsafe. C'mon, nothing against AC but you gotta agree their planes don't look that appealing to the common eye.... from the inside too.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
accargo
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:08 am

I don't "gotta agree".

You don't like the livery and your entitled to your opinion.

So which acft in AC's fleet are "beat up looking"?
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Accargo (Reply 11):
So which acft in AC's fleet are "beat up looking"?

I'd like to say all but I won't.  duck 

Here's a couple. Note the word 'new' on the second pic. Heck, even WN's lively looks better....but like you said, everybody is entitled to their own opinion.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Kryst
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eric Fortin - AirImages

If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 7):
If Qantas is to run a YYZ route they are most likely to fly via LAX as well.

But will they have 5th Freedom rights on the LAX-YYZ sector?
Do QF have 8th Freedom rights on the LAX-JFK sector?
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 12):
Here's a couple. Note the word 'new' on the second pic. Heck, even WN's lively looks better....but like you said, everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

That first pic is the only one in the fleet like that, it's a trial. The second pic is not the new interior, installation of the new interiors doesn't start till May of this year. Why he says "new AC airliner" is unknown to me.

Besides, it's not like any US airline has a transpacific service up to par with AC let alone SQ  Yeah sure Especially so when AC's 777's arrive.

Kris
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:11 am

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 14):
Besides, it's not like any US airline has a transpacific service up to par with AC let alone SQ Especially so when AC's 777's arrive.

You couldn't be more right about that. UA B744's are in worse shape.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
accargo
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 12):
Here's a couple. Note the word 'new' on the second pic. Heck, even WN's lively looks better....but like you said, everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

So I understand correctly, you are basing your opinions on photos posted here? Have you actually seen any "beat up looking " AC acft in person?
 
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Stitch
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 15):
You couldn't be more right about that. UA B744's are in worse shape.

Yet they evidently still fill up the back on a regular basis. Since most (if not all) flight search engines search only by price, and not amenities, if UA can offer a lower price then QF or AC, they'll get the sale, even if passengers will be better entertained on QF or AC.

On the flip side, it would be nice if you could specify airline amenities like you can with hotels, so you could see that AC might be $30 more then UA, but offers a 1" wider seat, 16:9 in-seat video, and ice cream instead of cookies with your "beef or pasta".  Wink
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting Accargo (Reply 16):
So I understand correctly,

No you do not.

Quoting Accargo (Reply 16):
you are basing your opinions on photos posted here?



Quoting Accargo (Reply 11):
So which acft in AC's fleet are "beat up looking"?

Per your question above, you wanted to know which aircraft look beatup. I showed you an inside and outside look.

Quoting Accargo (Reply 16):
Have you actually seen any "beat up looking " AC acft in person?



Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 5):
and seeing AC's aircraft from the outside today,

Gee, I hate repeating myself.

Unfortunately, I bet explaining the aircraft I saw won't do you any good so I posted the pictures of other aircraft.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
B707Stu
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:03 am

I'm still not clear. AC has 5th freedom rights to pick up local LAX traffic for Sydney? They already have YYZ-LAX rights so that's a no brainer. It's the LAX traffic that I'm not clear about. If they do in fact have these rights, or are about to get these rights, whether from LAX or SFO, I think it's significant. AC will compete very well here, especially with the inbound Western Canadian traffic they'll be able to discount, as well as YUL, YYZ (eastern Canada) traffic they'll get.

As to AC planes looking beat up. A piece of this is due to weather but before all you SAS people say how pretty their planes are, AC's probably see a lot more use and have less times in the 'plane-wash.' Bottom line is AC is a world class carrier. Now, if I was flying LAX-SYD, would I fly them? No, I think I'd prefer UA, NZ or QF in J class.
 
aircanada014
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 19):
Now, if I was flying LAX-SYD, would I fly them? No, I think I'd prefer UA, NZ or QF in J class

Did you forget if AC do fly to SYD from YYZ via LAX they will be using their new 777s and they will have their new J product.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:51 am

YYZ is AC's main hub. AC wants to open a new route from its main hub to SYD. No aircraft can fly it non-stop. LAX is pretty much on the route and is the most logical stop: the most halfway (well, not exactly halfway, but the closest possible stop from SYD), a big StarAlliance hub, served by AC from other cities. It makes sense for them to be allowed to fly it.

Similarly, doesn't NZ have rights on the FRA-LAX sector? Or am I wrong?

SQ????? What would the route be? LAX-SYD? With machines and crew based at LAX or SYD? I guess so since I do not see any logic in a SIN-SYD-LAX route since SIN-LAX non-stop already exists. And a SIN-LAX-SYD route would be a pure non-sense!!!
So, in the case of SQ, that would be a route in the pure purpose of killing the competition, UA being in top of my mind.
Nobody wants airline transportation to work this way...

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
AC vs. SQ should be decided by the market, not by governments.

... except a few people, to whom I would advice to never get a job in a legacy carrier, would their dreams become reality...
When I doubt... go running!
 
polaris
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:57 am

The explanation, in very general terms, without going into specific details about bilaterals is about geography.

The various agreements between Australia and the US, Australia and Canada, and the US and Canada, allow for the type of service that Air Canada proposes because the US is geographically between Australia and Canada (Air Canada's home base).

Agreements between Singapore and Australia, Singapore and the US, and Australia and the US, are unlikely to include this kind of service because Australia is not geographically between the US and Singapore (Singapore Airlines' home base).

That's basically how it works.

Now, if Singapore Airlines was looking to fly to Antarctica with a stop in Australia...
 
ecuatoriana707
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:43 am

The Australian Govt's decision to keep status quo on the Syd - Lax route was the right one. I'm no fan of higher airfares, but I know that it's our country's last lucrative route which hasn't been traded away. Like JFK-LHR, it should be tightly controlled until Australia gets something in return. I also welcome Air Canada to the route - its great to see some more North American airlines coming back on the service. What about Northwest? If its such a money spinner surely others US carriers seeking increased revenue would jump at it. Alternatively SQ have a part share of Air NZ - who holds rights, currently not used, to fly SYD - LAX. You'd think there would be a back-door way of SQ establishing some competition on the service using carriers with rights already approved.
 
Simpilicity
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 3):
I wonder that as well. Qantas viewed Singapore as a huge threat, but they don't seem to care about Air Canada. WHY???????? I'm sure they rather not have AC on the route, but they don't seem bother that much. SQ plans to keep on trying, game is not over.

AC's reputation is bloody awful, whereas perception of SQ is number 1.

QF knows how bad AC is & they can't stop them anyway.

There's always possibility of AC using someone else's aircraft (eg. SQ) until they can get a AC aircraft such as 777 to operate route from APR07.
 
diazhill
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:14 pm

AC's reputation is far from bloody awful.. in fact, quite the opposite.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/us/news/best/index.html?src=ad_lb

AC will launch LAX-SYD with brand new 777 aircraft featuring industry-leading lie-flat suites in the Executive First cabin and personal entertainment systems at each customer's seat throughout the aircraft.

IMHO AC will offer the best product on this route - bar none.

MONTREAL, Jan. 25 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada today announced that as a
result of new market opportunities presented by the recently expanded Open
Skies Agreement for Canada and the United States, the airline will apply to
Canadian and Australian authorities to commence daily Toronto-Los Angeles-
Sydney service. Flights would commence during the first half of 2007 with the
delivery of Air Canada's new Boeing 777 fleet featuring industry-leading
lie-flat suites in the Executive First cabin and personal entertainment
systems at each customer's seat throughout the aircraft. Air Canada already
operates between the U.S. and Australia on its Vancouver-Honolulu-Sydney
service using existing route authorities.
With an elapsed westbound time of 21 hours and 15 minutes, Air Canada's
Toronto-Sydney flights via Los Angeles would offer the fastest elapsed time of
any airline from eastern Canada to Australia, shaving three and a half hours
off current Air Canada routings and also offering one-stop service from all
business markets across Canada. The daily flights would serve Canadian,
American and Australian consumers as well as freight forwarders, seeking
convenient and competitive air transportation between Canada and Australia,
the United States and Australia, and Canada and the United States. Air Canada
plans to work with its Star Alliance partners, Air New Zealand, United
Airlines and US Airways, through schedule coordination and codeshare services
to offer customers increased choice and convenience.
"The recently concluded Open Skies Agreement for Canada and the United
States opens new opportunities for Air Canada to enhance service for consumers
and business in Canada, the United States and international markets, such as
Australia," said Ben Smith, Vice President, Network Planning. "We look forward
to working with Canadian and Australian authorities to derive maximum benefits
for our customers in all three countries. Air Canada has long advocated the
further liberalization of our shared skies so that we can better link our
expanded North American network to our growing international network, and
further capitalize on our cooperative agreements with our commercial partners.
In addition to offering all our customers faster access to and from Australia,
same plane service from our main hub in Toronto will raise the bar in premium
in-flight comfort using our new 777 fleet."
The Toronto-originating flights would be timed to offer convenient
connection possibilities in Los Angeles to and from Montreal, Edmonton,
Calgary and Vancouver, as well as to and from points throughout the United
States via Los Angeles on flights operated by Air Canada's Star Alliance
partners, United Airlines and US Airways.
An Open Skies Agreement for Canada and the United States was concluded
November 10, 2005. The agreement comes into effect September 2006. In addition
to providing for more choice and competitive pricing for consumers, the
agreement allows for carriers of each country to carry passengers via the
other country to third countries, referred to as "fifth freedom" rights, such
as Air Canada proposing to serve Australia via the United States.
Air Canada operates more non-stop flights between Canada and the U.S.
than any other airline. Air Canada, Air Canada Jazz and its commercial
partners operate more than 385 non-stop flights per day on 79 routes to and
from 50 U.S. and 6 Canadian destinations. Air Canada extends its network
within the United States even further with its Star Alliance partners. In
2005, an independent survey of more than 12 million international air
travelers ranked Air Canada as the Best Airline in North America.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 20):
using their new 777s and they will have their new J product.

This does not offset the generally less than friendly attitude of the cabin crew.
You will have the grandma's on these routes and they do just enough to get buy.
 
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longhauler
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 26):
This does not offset the generally less than friendly attitude of the cabin crew.
You will have the grandma's on these routes and they do just enough to get buy.

Some day, this old urban legend will die. But for now, its fun to see it keep being repeated. But, I hate to introduce fact, as it really screws up a good argument. Right now, more than 50% of AC's flight attendants have less then 5 years seniority, and more then 75% have less than 10 years seniority.

There was a huge buy-out a few years ago that got rid of most of the ones that would rather not be there. And yeah, they are in EVERY airline. I find the most senior flight attendants are not on the marathon long haul flights you mention, but on the one day high time return cycles. When they work YYZ-BGI-YYZ, YYZ-YVR-YYZ or YYZ-SFO-YYZ then they only have to work 8 days a month.

The flight attendants that work the 6 or 7 day cycles the are required on the long haul flying, are the "adventurous" ones that are looking for a fun few days away from home .... not a bad attitude to have in the cabin!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
juventus
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:02 am

Why the obsession with LAX-SYD? Why not SFO-SYD for SQ? anybody.....
 
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Stitch
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting Juventus (Reply 28):
Why the obsession with LAX-SYD? Why not SFO-SYD for SQ? anybody...

I guess they want to go where the most valuable traffic is. Australia's importance to Hollywood probably results in a lot of First and Business Class revenue from execs and actors.
 
N1120A
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 13):
But will they have 5th Freedom rights on the LAX-YYZ sector?

Yes.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 13):
Do QF have 8th Freedom rights on the LAX-JFK sector?

No. The only local traffic they can carry are people coming from Australia, people on stopovers in Los Angeles and non-revenue traffic including Airline employees and award tickets

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 21):
AC wants to open a new route from its main hub to SYD. No aircraft can fly it non-stop.

Untrue. The 772LR can fly the route non-stop, but AC wants to capitalize on the strongest long haul route in the world though the hub of its largest partner airline

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 21):
Similarly, doesn't NZ have rights on the FRA-LAX sector? Or am I wrong?

They do, though they don't fly it anymore. They fly AKL-LAX-LHR with full rights

Quoting Juventus (Reply 28):
Why the obsession with LAX-SYD? Why not SFO-SYD for SQ? anybody.....

Well, lets start with the fact that LAX has more than twice as many people in its cachement (more if you include San Diego) than SFO. Also, like said, the strong entertainment industry links suck up premium class capacity.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 27):
Right now, more than 50% of AC's flight attendants have less then 5 years seniority, and more then 75% have less than 10 years seniority.

Longhauler... thanks for this titbit; it gives cause for hope that the old culture is being swept away.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 31):
Longhauler... thanks for this titbit; it gives cause for hope that the old culture is being swept away.

Oh it is thank god. Also most of the very senior f/a's that are still around are the good ones with excellent customer service skills. They stayed because they love being an f/a and you can tell.

Kris
 
zvezda
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 26):
You will have the grandma's on these routes and they do just enough to get buy.

This is a problem with AC, but a much smaller problem than with AA, DL, and UA. On my last international UA flight, there was not an FA in F or C class who was younger than 72. At least one was clearly into her 80s. I know this because I was chatting with the one who was 72 and she both told me her age (I didn't ask) and confirmed that she was the youngest (not counting a few in Y class). Service was geriatric, but at least they didn't mind me helping myself to non-alcoholic drinks in the galley.
 
nzrich
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting Ecuatoriana707 (Reply 23):
Alternatively SQ have a part share of Air NZ - who holds rights, currently not used, to fly SYD - LAX. You'd think there would be a back-door way of SQ establishing some competition on the service using carriers with rights already approved.

SQ sold their stake in NZ quite a while ago...
"Pride of the pacific"
 
B787
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:49 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 4):
Another question. Why is everyone so focused on LAX-SYD? Why not SFO-SYD?

Actually why is everyone focused on SYD? What about BNE or MEL? Poor BNE and MEL. We always get forgotten  Sad
 
dforce1
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:08 pm

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 19):
Now, if I was flying LAX-SYD, would I fly them? No, I think I'd prefer UA, NZ or QF in J class.

You had me in your corner up until this comment. You say AC is a world class airline, but if you had to choose, you still wouldn't fly them on this sector - why not?! I can understand NZ or QF but UA?! Clearly, AC J class is going to be far better than UA with the new 777's. The new seating alone is worth it. And if you can still collect United FF points on AC! UA's 747's are completely run down and are in need of an overhaul.

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 10):
C'mon, nothing against AC but you gotta agree their planes don't look that appealing to the common eye.... from the inside too.

I'll gladly admit that AC does have some aircraft in their fleet which do not look as visually appealing. But for the sake of this argument relevant to the topic, they are going to operate the route with brand new 777's! What's not visually appealing about a brand new plane!? They'll be newer than anything the others are operating on the route - especially UA.
 
zvezda
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RE: SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route

Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:26 pm

Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 36):
UA's 747's are completely run down and are in need of an overhaul.

I would take UA aircraft and AC cabin crew over AC aircraft and UA cabin crew. Both of these hypotheticals would be completely unappealing with SQ in the market.