BoomBoom
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787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:48 am

Quote:
Boeing said Friday it hoped to win a $3 billion contract to deliver 22 new long-haul planes to Russia's flag carrier Aeroflot, even if its rival Airbus has offered a discount.

The tender pits Boeing's latest B-787 jets against Airbus A-350 aircraft, and Russian media have speculated that Airbus offered Aeroflot a $100 million discount to win the contract.

Senior Airbus officials have called their bid "unique," but declined to say if they really offered a discount.

Boeing's calculations showed the 787's economical consumption of fuel and other cost-effective factors meant Aeroflot would eventually be saving about $3.5 million per year on each of the B-787.

"This $100 million discount will go away in about 15 months of operation ...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060303/bs_nm/airlines_russia_boeing_dc_1
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YoungFlyer
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A

Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:54 am

Wow, very interesting. If these facts by Boeing are in fact true. I think Airbus will have to dish out so massive discounts for airlines to buy the A350. Can these numbers be true though? Is the 787 that good?
Dan

[Edited 2006-03-04 23:00:00]
"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" -Gandhi
 
keesje
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting YoungFlyer (Reply 1):
Wow, very interesting. If these facts by Boeing are in fact are true.

Right on! $10.000 a day per aircraft , that´s fantastic for an aircraft that is a little smaller and has the same engines!

Fantastic!

[Edited 2006-03-04 23:00:59]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
atmx2000
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
Right on! $10.000 a day per aircraft , that´s fantastic for an aircraft that is a little smaller and has the same engines!

Gee, Keesje did you forget that it is a lot lighter, too. Even the 787-9 will be lighter than the smaller A358.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
HS748
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:20 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
Right on! $10.000 a day per aircraft , that´s fantastic for an aircraft that is a little smaller and has the same engines!

Fantastic!

Fantastic as in completely beyond belief (because it's nothing more than PR) is absolutely right!
 
AvObserver
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:30 am

"The second factor is, maybe they (Airbus) realized the first offer was not good enough, or they just basically confirmed the value of the 787," he said with a smile."

I don't accept Boeing's (or Airbus's) figures at face value but I find it interesting that Airbus felt the need to offer a "unique" discount in this competition. If they need to do this on a regular basis, a lot of the A350's perceived profit potential (and credibility) will vanish. Bad enough they've talked about doing this with the A340 series but if they must with an airplane they tout in ads as "the world's most advanced twin-engine aircraft"  Yeah sure , then the A350 could end up being less of a cash-cow than they've hoped. I'm surprised after the Airbus furor over Boeing's 747-8I vs. A380 figures that Toulouse isn't putting up more of a fuss over these claims, except, perhaps that they may now realize it makes them look rather like a child having a tantrum.
 
AA737-823
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:38 am

They have a habit of looking like a child having a tantrum.

I, being an avid Boeing fan, have always hoped that the 787 would blow the A350 out of the water... but 3.5 mil a year?
I raise an eyebrow.
I mean, really. Granted, Airbus builds a plane that burns... what did they say, 9% more fuel than the Boeing copmetitor? Talking about the 346 vs. 773ER... you know, where Leahy came out and started offering cash rebates a few weeks back... (wow, and I thought Chevy was desperate)

But seriously, that aside, would they even bother to build a plane that costs 3.5 million more to operate per year?

The question in my mind is something like... is "all else equal"? Those figure only mean something if all else is equal... HOW did Boeing juggle the numbers to be able to make that statement?

And, given Boeing's track record (Every single product they've come out with lately burns less fuel than promised... all five versions of the 777, the 764, the 737NG, etc.) then maybe it's even better than they promise???

I don't know folks, this is shady...
 
BoomBoom
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A

Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 7):
Granted, Airbus builds a plane that burns... what did they say, 9% more fuel than the Boeing copmetitor? Talking about the 346 vs. 773ER

Air France, another major Airbus customer but also a big 777 buyer, is one of few carriers that has flown both A340s and 777s on the same routes. Chief Financial Officer Philippe Calavia said a first-generation A340-300 from the 1990s burns about 15% to 20% more fuel per seat than a 777 of the same vintage. "It's more costly to maintain four engines than two," he said, adding that Air France expects "to further increase the proportion of 777s in our fleet." (WSJ 1/16/206)

I wonder if the 15-20% advantage holds true in the later vintages?
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hb88
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:17 am

Is it my imagination or are these puff-pieces coming out almost weekly now?

It's a long way to go before either the 787 or A350 go into service and just personally, I am more interested in Boeings ability to get the 787 technology exactly as promised and deliver according to schedule. Up until then it's smoke and mirrors.

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 6):
I'm surprised after the Airbus furor over Boeing's 747-8I vs. A380 figures that Toulouse isn't putting up more of a fuss over these claims, except, perhaps that they may now realize it makes them look rather like a child having a tantrum.

As for the childish tantrum bit - sheesh. Airbus is a COMPANY. I know people here are fond of making it 'personal', but it gets a bit lame after a while...

I think the reason that Airbus isn't having a tantrum is there is always the possibility is that these claims are in the same bit-bucket as Boeings bogus A380 vs 748 claims.

My take on this is that right now Boeing perceive a commercial threat in the long-range market (where they are traditionally the strongest and obtain the biggest margins) from the A380 and the new variants of the A340. Don't laugh, it'll be interesting if Airbus 'get it right' with the 340-600+. There is also the fact that the A350 is morphing from the much criticised (at least on a.net) pimped up A330 to something a little more interesting.

I think that if Airbus make some ground to reverse the apparent deal-losses of last year and given the expected slowdown in civil a/c orders which is expected in 06/07, Boeing could well have some problems if the 748 fizzes (and it's not exactly setting the world on fire right now...) in terms of losing market share to Airbus in the long-range/VLA market.

They have to keep the pressure on, however they do it and I think there are going to be some carriers who will want to wait and see if the 787 can be produced and delivered according to schedule and indeed if the aircraft can be certified and operated safely given the new technologies inherent in the design.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
The media speculated on a $100 million discount on a 3 billion deal were 10-20% discounts are normal,

How do you know it's not $100 million on top of the normal discount?

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 10):
I think there are going to be some carriers who will want to wait and see if the 787 can be produced and delivered according to schedule and indeed if the aircraft can be certified and operated safely given the new technologies inherent in the design.

The same can be said of the A380, except that we already know it's behind schedule.
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MarshalN
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:26 am

I think all PR has to be taken with a grain of salt, and if it is indeed 3.5 million a year per aircraft... who in their right mind will order the Airbus? Airbus will seriously need to give the plane away for anyone to take it if those numbers are true. Does anybody actually believe that to be the case?

Some airlines are dumb and make mistakes in their fleet planning, but this is beyond ridiculous...
 
N908AW
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 12):
who in their right mind will order the Airbus?

Nobody in their right mind has/will, but look for a handful of carriers to buy the Airbus simply because Airbus is all they buy.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
atmx2000
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 12):
I think all PR has to be taken with a grain of salt, and if it is indeed 3.5 million a year per aircraft... who in their right mind will order the Airbus? Airbus will seriously need to give the plane away for anyone to take it if those numbers are true. Does anybody actually believe that to be the case?

I think this all depends on the configuration that the 787 and A350 are being offered in. If Boeing is selling a 9 abreast 788 with OEW at least 10% less than the A358 in abreast despite similar capacity, then combined with the much lower list price of the 788 in relation to the A358, the operating and acquisition costs would be substantially lower. If Airbus can get a 9 abreast format acceptable to airlines in the A350 by 2011, then maybe Boeing's claims are off base. But even if they do make 9 abreast acceptable, airlines would have to fill even more seats on the A358.
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hb88
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 11):
Quoting Hb88 (Reply 10):
I think there are going to be some carriers who will want to wait and see if the 787 can be produced and delivered according to schedule and indeed if the aircraft can be certified and operated safely given the new technologies inherent in the design.

The same can be said of the A380, except that we already know it's behind schedule.

True enough, but in my view, there are certain technologies specific to all-CFRP aircraft (as opposed to the A380) which really need to be completely ironed out before the 787 becomes a safe and reliable aircraft to operate. I'm thinking mainly of things like vulnerability to ramp-rash or airframe static dissipation in high EM environments.

In any case, although it's an extremely unfashionable thing to say on a.net, I don't think the 6 mo delay in the EIS for the A380 will matter much in the long run no matter what the anti-A380 camp might wish for.

cheers

[...although for the life of me I don't really get the whole spittle-flecked vitriolic hysteria you routinely see on a.net in relation to the 380 and/or Airbus. Anyone reading posts here would think the Airbus EC personally went around and kicked a.netters dogs.]
 
tigerotor77w
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:19 am

I agree with Atmx2000... a great deal of cost effectiveness is placed on the layout of the plane, so there's no need to jump to start conclusions immediately.

There is not one piece of data that cannot be distorted into something to make a company look good. As much as Boeing has been delivering in the past, they clearly need to continue exceeding those expectations with the 787 and 747-8I especially -- because there exists a viable product in a very, very hot market. Simply "holding on," as they have done with the 737NG, won't be enough for this size-class...
 
norcal
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 15):
I'm thinking mainly of things like vulnerability to ramp-rash or airframe static dissipation in high EM environments.

Did you see the video where they took a hammer and a chisel and pounded away at a composite piece on the 787? They didn't even dent it, it was pretty impressive, though some other issues probably still remain like the static dissipation.
 
andessmf
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:39 am

3.5 million a year doesnt sound so bad, sounds normal. Lets do the quick math calc. with any other input requested in case of error.

$10,000 a day translates to 20 passengers paying $500 each, I dont know how good that assumption is.

20 passengers translates to about lets say 250 lbs total per pass., including baggage and fuel, so 20 x 250 = 5000 lbs, which to me doesnt sound so bad.

Lesson is, weight matters a whole hell of a lot, please feel free to correct my logic as required.
 
art
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 12):
I think all PR has to be taken with a grain of salt...

A grain? More like a bucket in this case, methinks.

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 12):
... and if it is indeed 3.5 million a year per aircraft... who in their right mind will order the Airbus?

On the basis of the Boeing 787/A350 comparison, I don't think any airline would ever be stupid enough to order the A350. I guess those dumb folks at Airbus will just have to wait forever to get their first A350 order.
 
greasespot
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:13 am

ummmm Hello neither airplanes have flown.......Once they fly then these comparisons will be a little more plausable....Up until then they are nothing more than a sales brochure speaking...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
mptpa
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:13 am

Also, do not forget the credibility issues that Airbus has put itself under as of late. They seem to over promise for the sales, and lack when time comes to deliver. This has been consistent with the existing aircraft, and takes them a few iterations before geting it right. on the other hand, Boeing has been very conservative in their promises, and in service numbers have been better than promised. So naturally, the airlines take this into consideration mainly when a new model comes out.

No Boeing has to deliver on their promises with 787, which I think they will given their conservative nature and design philosophy.

We have to wait and see in 2007/2008 after aircraft do into commercial service (real life scenario not the conceptual numbers).
 
FCKC
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:21 am

We all must be carefull of this lobbying , coming from Chicago.
It's really more realistic to wait both these planes will fly , and can be able to compare their fuel consumption in real , not in words before they fly.
 
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glideslope
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:39 am

I'll take Boeing's "numbers" over Airbus any day of the week. Airbus has completely misread the market, and has nothing to offer. Period. I could only imaging if Airbus had stock holders.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
Alessandro
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:41 am

Neither of them are flying so far as I´m concerned they could promise to run them on strawberries and fly to the moon.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:59 am

So many comments that we have to wait until both aircraft are flying to be able to make any relevant comparisions, and that all information from either side is simply unreliable sales-speak hooey.

And yet many airlines have already been able to make their own decisions and have placed orders worth over US$500billion worth of planes, spelled out in contractual agreements including performance requirements, from both manufacturers.

Seems to me that if you are in the right position today you can get plenty of quality information of future aircraft performance.

Or do we not like what the airlines are concluding?
 
Johnny
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A

Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:16 pm

@ BoomBoom

Again and again your fantastic B787...
We all have to wait and see if both Boeing 787 and Airbus 350 are as good as promised.

Do not believe it marketing miracles more than two years prior first delivery...

Boeings statements are getting boring - normally i would assume they are very concerned about the A350 capabilities.Or would they otherwise talk about the advantages of their B787 nearly every week..?

[Edited 2006-03-05 10:17:52]
 
a380heavy
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:56 pm

Reading through this thread I just had to have my two penneth or two cents for my friends across the pond.

Does anybody here honestly believe that the computer models, simulations, projections, predictions and spin from the manufacturers will absolutely pan out in to airline service?

There will be airlines that purchase B787's and A350's and some of them will end up thinking I wish I'd have bought the A product rather than the B product and vice versa.

What if the predicitions turn out to be somewhat less than accurate, what if the particular aircraft turns out to be a nightmare and is constantly re-visiting hangars for costly repairs?

It is only in airline service where the true picture will emerge - word will then spread amongst the airlines and over the long term we'll see who will turn out to be the victor in terms of numbers sold.

For the time being my advice is take whatever the 'A' & 'B' PR machines are saying with a pinch of salt and ignore the rumours. These aircraft are still some way off their first flights yet and there will be lots more tweaking done before either gets air beneath its tyres.

Me personally, I am excited in anticipation of seeing both aircraft in the air and can see the merits of both - as an aviation enthusiast.

Regards,

A380Heavy
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trent900
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:25 pm

Considering Airbus hasn't had a design freeze on the A350 yet where does Boeing get these figures from? And not to mention the current problem with B bending the figures between the 748 and 380!

D.
 
BestWestern
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:49 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
Air France, another major Airbus customer but also a big 777 buyer, is one of few carriers that has flown both A340s and 777s on the same routes. Chief Financial Officer Philippe Calavia said a first-generation A340-300 from the 1990s burns about 15% to 20% more fuel per seat than a 777 of the same vintage. "It's more costly to maintain four engines than two," he said, adding that Air France expects "to further increase the proportion of 777s in our fleet." (WSJ 1/16/206)

Boom Boom - care to provide a link to this quote. You have made up anti airbus quotes before, and I just want to be sure that this is accurate.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:21 pm

Where to begin?????

Both Airbus and Boeing will have generally accurate numbers on performance for both the B-787 and A-350 by now. This is not the days of designing the B-707 any more. Yes, the two new airplanes, like the B-707 have and will continue wind tunnel testing.

Both the A-350 and B-787 have been in testing for some time now. Just like the A-380 has been for about 10 years now. The flight testing is simply another phase of testing.

The B-787 and A-350 have and will continue with both wind tunnel testing and computer testing as the performance numbers get refined further. No, this is not some revamped version of Flight Simulator 2006, both Boeing and Airbus actually KNOW what they are doing.

By now, both designs are pretty much down to weight elimination, but maintane full strenght. Just as it is with the A-380, weight will be one of the determinations on if the airplanes are a success or not. It will not be unusual for the first few B-787s and A-350s to show up over weight, from the contract agreements. The A-380 did.

But, that will not be the portion of testing that will make or break these sales deals. The airlines already know these two airplanes will, initally, be over weight. The portion that will effect them the most is the structural loads testing. This is where the A-380 is going to have some problems, as we all know, the wing failure testing did not break at the required 150% of strenght, it only reached 147%, nor did it break where it was predicted to break. That is going to have a significant impact on the airplanes built until a strenghtened design is tested and certified. These airplanes will not be allowed to fly at the designed maximum gross weight. The weight will need to be reduced so that wing strenght cannot be exceeded by the FAA/JAA requirement of 150%. These airplanes will eventually be modified to full strenght, but at the cost of additional weight, at least for the first few airplanes (10 or so).

But, back to the B-787 and A-350. Both the US and European airplane manufactures have a reasonable amount of experience with building composet airplanes. Military fighters have been built with these materials for years. A commerical airplane will never be flown in an abusive and high G enviornment that fighters are. They just fly for more years, hours, and cycles. Commerical airplanes are built to a 2.5 G load factor (thus the required wing strenght of 150%, since the airplane just sitting on the ground, not moving is at 1 G). Fighters, like the F-15, F-16, F-117, Euro-Fighter, and Tornado are built to withstand, up to a 12 G instantanious load factor, and up to a 9 G sustained load factor. These airplane have large amounts of composets in them. In the case of the F-117, it is all composets. Now Airbus and Boeing will just have to learn how to build these composet airplanes in a larger size.

BTW, the $100M discount Airbus is offering to the Russian airlines only amounts to about $5M per airplane, based on a 20 airplane buy. This is not a big discount, unless it is in addition to some other discounts. But, if the Boeing performance numbers are close, and I believe they are, saving $3.5M per year, per airplane will go a long way towards sealing this deal. That is a savings of $70M per airplane over a 20 year life span, when compared to the A-350.
 
jeffrito
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:22 pm

Do contracts for new models such as these include performance guarantees of some sort?
 
rpaillard
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:22 pm

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 22):
No Boeing has to deliver on their promises with 787, which I think they will given their conservative nature and design philosophy

Just finish to read "Boeing 787 Dreamliner - Flying redefined". While I'm far from an expert, I'm not sure that this design is that conservative! On the paper, it looks like an amazing plane, and I wish it will.

That said, I could not understand why some pleople there seems to be so happy with Airbus problem and speak so loudly when other warn over theoricals ones with Boeing new design.

It's too early to affirm that there will have issues with the 787. But it's also too early to be sure that everything will be fine and perfect. So please, wait and see and keep the value of this forum by droping PR, both from Airbus and Boeing.

My 2 cents, peacefull.
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kc135topboom
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:37 pm

Quoting Jeffrito (Reply 40):
Do contracts for new models such as these include performance guarantees of some sort?

Yes, they do usually include performance guarantees.

Remember the AA purchase of the MD-11 from MD? The MD-11 never met the range and fuel comsumptions guarantees made by MD. That was the same problem with the DL purchase of the MD-90 and MD-11. Both AA and DL canceled their contracts to buy additional MD-11s and MD-90s because those airplanes failed to meet those performance guarantees. Other airlines also either canceled their sales contracts or was turned away from ordering the airplanes. Now, the MD-11 is relagated to being simply a box carrier (but a few remain in passenger service) and you cannot give away an MD-90.

Now, both DL and AA have replaced the MD-11s with B-777-200ERs and DL's 16 MD-90 fleet will soon go to rot in the desert as they go through the motions of reducing the number of types they fly because of bankruptcy.
 
jeffrito
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:17 pm

Quoting Rpaillard (Reply 41):
keep the value of this forum by droping PR

It would be bad policy--and a real surprise in the case of these two companies--if the PR (or any statements by officials) contradicted actual facts. I think the PR does merit our attention and discussion.

The interesting thing is to try to uncover "the fine print" in all these PR statements.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 42):
Quoting Jeffrito (Reply 40):
Do contracts for new models such as these include performance guarantees of some sort?

Yes, they do usually include performance guarantees.

Exactly. There is real money riding on the performance specifications of the two yet-to-be built aircraft. It's not all mental masturbation, as some here would prefer to believe.
 
Fokker70NG
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:28 pm

This is without a doubt the famous PR bullshit. Of course they could be right, if you operate an A350 and a 787 side-by-side but you let the A350 fly more hours a day, the 787 should be cheaper to operate.

All PR claims aside, I think the 787 will be a little cheaper to operate, since it's an all new light-weight design, where the A350 is 'just a warmed over A330', warmed over in a very hot oven that is. Although the A350 will be heavier than the 787 and the latter one uses more new technology, I think no single Toulousian will be able to sleep until they did everything they could to make the gap as small as possible.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
Beaucaire
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:45 pm

The cost of ownership budget certainly looks appealing for the 787 -on paper that is .
Because you have to consider unexpected issues with fiber-related maintenance and repair costs, which are -at this stage -completely unknown technologies for many operators.
I have close contacts with a maintenance company in France ,who obviously have a slightly more realistic view away from pure consumption -figures of engines.It's a topic where nobody today can provide precise answers -so the cost of ownership comparison between a more traditional cell-architecture like the A350 and a revolutionary body like the 787 needs the real-life benchmark to come to conclusions. You can not anticipate all costs related to new aircraft introductions four years ahead of service.
I am convinced the 787 has a great economy potential -but-like the A380 -there will be issues that nobody dares to talk about today.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 44):
This is without a doubt the famous PR bullshit. Of course they could be right, if you operate an A350 and a 787 side-by-side but you let the A350 fly more hours a day, the 787 should be cheaper to operate.

?????????? That statement makes no sense at all. Airplanes sitting on the ground are not making revenue. In fact, they are costing money with parking fees, maintenance activity, fuel, etc. If you had a fleet with both the A-350 and B-787 (why would you do that?), why would you fly the heavier airplane more hours per day?

Never mind, I see you are only 16. Now your statement, at least, can be attributed to your years (seconds, minutes, hours, days?) of experience.

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 44):
I think no single Toulousian will be able to sleep until they did everything they could to make the gap as small as possible.

That won't happen with the A-350. Maybe Airbus should go ahead and start working on the A-360 and A-370?
 
deputydawghere
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 31):
I'm not anti Boeing: the 747 line and the new 777 are excellent. As for the company Boeing, well, it's a business. It doesn't make any sense to 'dislike' an company.

I'm anti uninformed rants against either companies aircraft. I do find the whole A vs B thing here pretty tiresome and the signal to noise ratio gets pretty low. I suppose I know more about Airbus aircraft than I do about Boeing, so when I read some of the stuff on a.net, well you either keep your mouth shut or you say something.

Thanks for sharing your opinion my friend. I agree with you, the A vs B thing does become tiresome. How about a celebration of the products both Boeing and Airbus produce. Don't you agree?
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hb88
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting Deputydawghere (Reply 47):


Thanks for sharing your opinion my friend. I agree with you, the A vs B thing does become tiresome. How about a celebration of the products both Boeing and Airbus produce. Don't you agree?

Absolutely. In fact, I have to go to Germany this Friday for the day for work and I'm flying LHR-Hamburg on a BA 757. In all these years, this is the only Boeing jet aircraft I've never flown on and I'm looking forward to it. The 75 is one beautiful looking machine. It reeks power.
 
deputydawghere
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 48):
Absolutely. In fact, I have to go to Germany this Friday for the day for work and I'm flying LHR-Hamburg on a BA 757. In all these years, this is the only Boeing jet aircraft I've never flown on and I'm looking forward to it. The 75 is one beautiful looking machine. It reeks power.

The 757 is nice, but my two favorites of Boeing are the 747 and 777. My two favorites of Airbus are the A380, of course, and the A340-642, what a beautiful plane. What about yours? Have a good trip to Germany.
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Fokker70NG
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A

Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 46):
?????????? That statement makes no sense at all. Airplanes sitting on the ground are not making revenue. In fact, they are costing money with parking fees, maintenance activity, fuel, etc. If you had a fleet with both the A-350 and B-787 (why would you do that?), why would you fly the heavier airplane more hours per day?

Never mind, I see you are only 16. Now your statement, at least, can be attributed to your years (seconds, minutes, hours, days?) of experience.

No need for this heated A vs. B type reply. I didn't mention anything bad about Boeing, nor Airbus, it could well have been the Airbus PR department, so please take out that fire, thank you.

The only thing I was pointing out that you can turn every false claim into a right one. If you let an A350 fly legs of 10 hours every day and a 787 legs of 9 hours, you spend a lot more money on a A350. Unless they say "in equal conditions of operation" they can claim anything they want. No experience needed to figure out that flying a plane for an hour is more expensive (especially with current fuel prices) than all parking costs etc involved with parking an aircraft for one hour. And no, I wasn't thinking that someone would order both the 787 and A350 (although it could make a little sense by the way, as Airbus doensn't have a real competitor for the 787-3 yet), it was meant as comparison.

And no, I'm not sixteen years old, but thanks anyway for pointing out that subtleness hasn't got anything to do with age.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 46):
That won't happen with the A-350. Maybe Airbus should go ahead and start working on the A-360 and A-370?

One thing is for sure, the Toulousians will do everything to make the gap as small as possible. But how small? Time will tell.

 wave 
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting Deputydawghere (Reply 49):
The 757 is nice, but my two favorites of Boeing are the 747 and 777. My two favorites of Airbus are the A380, of course, and the A340-642, what a beautiful plane. What about yours?

For me, the B-757-200 is my favorite twin jet. Other than that, my favorite Boeings are the B-707 and B-747.

My favorite Airbus is the A-340-500. Everything looks in good proportion on the -500, the second is the A-340-200 for the same reason. To me, the the A-340-300 and -600 both look to long, and the -300 engines are to small for its size. All of the A-330s just don't have a good look to them. They look under powered (I know they are not) with only two engines on an A-340 airframe.
 
hb88
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Deputydawghere (Reply 46):


The 757 is nice, but my two favorites of Boeing are the 747 and 777. My two favorites of Airbus are the A380, of course, and the A340-642, what a beautiful plane. What about yours? Have a good trip to Germany.

Sometimes I think the 380 is one fugly aircraft, but from certain angles and in some liveries it is a beauty and one of my favourites. I have to agree on the 340-642 - it looks amazing. As for Boeing, the 777 nose looks sort of odd to me in profile. The 747 is iconic and there's no going past that.

For alltime favourites, I'm going to hedge - it has to be at one extreme the Concorde and at the other, any modern sailplane!

cheers
 
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STT757
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting A380Heavy (Reply 33):
Does anybody here honestly believe that the computer models, simulations, projections, predictions and spin from the manufacturers will absolutely pan out in to airline service

Boeing has a track record for exceeding expectations expecialy with their 777 line of aircraft, they had to twice upgrade their performance figures for the 777-300ER because it exceeded their expectations.

When it comes to performance expectations Boeing is conservative.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Tifoso
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 19):
ummmm Hello neither airplanes have flown.......Once they fly then these comparisons will be a little more plausable....Up until then they are nothing more than a sales brochure speaking...



Quoting FCKC (Reply 21):
It's really more realistic to wait both these planes will fly , and can be able to compare their fuel consumption in real , not in words before they fly.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 24):
Neither of them are flying so far as I´m concerned they could promise to run them on strawberries and fly to the moon.

Playing the waiting game will not help airlines that want to ensure they have the aircraft as soon as possible. Computer models and simulations today can be very accurate. Both Airbus and Boeing will know pretty well how much fuel each aircraft would burn, and all the additional costs associated with it, like maintenance, etc.

Airlines buy based on what Boeing and Airbus promise. If they don't live up to their guarantees, they will be slapped with heavy penalties. It would be foolish for Boeing to pull a number out of their hat, like many hear seem to suggest, because if they are wrong, they may end up paying much more than $3.5 million a year in penalties.

Quoting A380Heavy (Reply 33):
Does anybody here honestly believe that the computer models, simulations, projections, predictions and spin from the manufacturers will absolutely pan out in to airline service?

It will definitely pan out to within some error estimate. The 773ER has 2% better fuelburn than what Boeing expected. So, yes, models do work, and in some cases can even be conservative.

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 41):
the A350 is 'just a warmed over A330', warmed over in a very hot oven that is

I do not buy this "warmed up" nonsense. Airbus claims that there is less than 5% in common between the A330 and A350; this is a far cry from being a "warmed up" airliner.
 
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:55 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 50):
Boeing has a track record for exceeding expectations expecialy with their 777 line of aircraft, they had to twice upgrade their performance figures for the 777-300ER because it exceeded their expectations.

When it comes to performance expectations Boeing is conservative.

The 773ER is one sweet piece of engineering, no doubt.
 
deputydawghere
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 48):
For me, the B-757-200 is my favorite twin jet. Other than that, my favorite Boeings are the B-707 and B-747.

My favorite Airbus is the A-340-500. Everything looks in good proportion on the -500, the second is the A-340-200 for the same reason. To me, the the A-340-300 and -600 both look to long, and the -300 engines are to small for its size. All of the A-330s just don't have a good look to them. They look under powered (I know they are not) with only two engines on an A-340 airframe.

I agree, the A340-500 is another good looking plane, but there's someting about the 600 that just hit me from the moment I saw her; beautiful girl.
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 35):
Boom Boom - care to provide a link to this quote. You have made up anti airbus quotes before, and I just want to be sure that this is accurate.

Oh really? Care to provide a link to the anti-Airbus quotes I've made up?

As for the quote in this thread, it's from the Wall Street Journal, January 16 2006 and the article is titled Airbus Soars, but Big Model Is Drag
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1137...del+Is+Drag&COLLECTION=wsjie/6mont
You need a subscription to access it.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
RichardPrice
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 54):

Oh really? Care to provide a link to the anti-Airbus quotes I've made up?

As for the quote in this thread, it's from the Wall Street Journal, January 16 2006 and the article is titled Airbus Soars, but Big Model Is Drag
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1137...del+Is+Drag&COLLECTION=wsjie/6mont
You need a subscription to access it.

Pretty much all of your posts are anti Airbus rhetoric which gets a bit tiresome after a while, but as a WSJ subscriber I can confirm that the article in that link does include the quotes you made.

It all comes down to how you use the aircraft. We all knew that the composite structure of the 787 was going to be lighter and thus cost less in fuelburn, but there are always methods of massaging figures to create good PR. We dont know how Boeing arrived at the end figures mentioned in the thread starters article, but you can bet your ass it wont be based on the best case operations for the A350, but for the 787. And Im willing to bet that neither set of figures would have turned out to be the best operational method for Aeroflot.

You can prove anything with data.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:37 am

If the 787 turns out to have a $3.5 million operating advantage over A350, then A350 has to be cheaper by at least $35 million(assuming a cost of capital of 10%) for it to negate the operating advantage of 787. I doubt Airbus can make/sell it that much cheaper and still make a profit even though their development cost for A350 is much lower.

The development cost for B787 is estimated to be about $10 billion and for A350 it is $5 billion. Assuming a total demand for both aircrafts at 1000 and an equal market share for both(IMO Boeing will have a 70% market share) , the development cost for 787 per aircraft is about $20 million and for A350 it is about $10 million-a $10 million advantage per aircraft in favor of Airbus. Further assuming similar production costs for both aircrafts, the development cost advantage of $10 million/unit in favor of Airbus is more than offset by $35 million/unit price discounting that Airbus must offer to overcome the operating cost advantage of 787.

A350 can compete well if the operating cost advantage of 787 turns to be $1 million and less.
 
deputydawghere
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RE: 787 Has $3.5 Million Per Year Advantage Over A350

Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 55):
Pretty much all of your posts are anti Airbus rhetoric which gets a bit tiresome after a while, but as a WSJ subscriber I can confirm that the article in that link does include the quotes you made.

We're not all anti Airbus. Even though I like Boeing better, I think Airbus puts out a fine product. I get tired of people who are so damn defensive on this site.
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