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PanAm_DC10
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Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:20 pm

Recently I have posted a thread about Boeing being "in talks" to sell up to 17 787s to Russian Carriers other than Aeroflot. This is a link to that thread. Since then talk has emerged that Aeroflot may take controlling stakes in other State owned carriers to double in size and you will find that thread here

It left me asking quite a few questions but most interesting is that today Mr Carson of Boeing has given an interview on the prospects for Boeing and their RFP for Aeroflot and the A350 / B787. Some quotes such as those shich follow;

He said the number of planes being negotiated is 22, not 17 or 18 as reported by Russian news agency Prime-Tass last week.

Other news services were at that press conference and the Boeing representative was clearly reported as saying 2 carriers other than Aeroflot. I assume Mr Carson is clarifying Aeroflot's RFP.

So does that mean these 2 carriers are not ones which Aeroflot intend to merge with? Are either Airbus or Boeing talking to other Russian carriers?

"In the meantime, the government is likely to get some inputs from Airbus (ABI.YY)," he said.

Nothing new there except confirmation of the reported revised Tender offer by Airbus as first posted by Joni in this thread

Carson said he doesn't rule out the possibility that Airbus and Boeing may end up splitting the plane order.

Now that's new! This is the first time that I have seen this reported and it would certainly be a first for a single carrier to split their order between the 2 models were it to happen.

Here is a link to a report, the other I have is subscriber only.

http://sg.biz.yahoo.com/060308/15/3z7o0.html

Any thoughts? What would a split order provide in return for the amount of investment that Airbus and Boeing have commited too? Interesting developments in Russia anyway.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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cpairDC10
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:44 pm

I read somewhere that the Russians want to get their fingers into Airbus was it not for a RJ type ? I reckon that they will order the A350.

Trouble is I cannot remember where I saw this.....sorry
 
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:01 pm

Quoting CPairDC10 (Reply 1):
Trouble is I cannot remember where I saw this.

CPairDC10 welcome to A.net! I recall those glorious airplanes at SYD a long time ago  Smile

To answer your question I suggest that you refer to the following thread posted by Keesje it contains a link to an article with details of the project you refer to. Mind you, it's only in it's initial stages so there's lot's of work to be done yet. Also the reports were initial and updated data may be more available.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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cpairDC10
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:18 pm

Thank you PanAm....The CP Air 10s used to be my reason to get out of bed on a Saturday morning and go to MAN on my bike to see them, sometimes they used 747-100 s if we were lucky we got both on a Saturday morning, best colour scheme ever in my books !

Anyway back to the thread....thanks for the info ! so there is nothing concrete then?
 
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:30 pm

Quoting CPairDC10 (Reply 3):
Anyway back to the thread....thanks for the info ! so there is nothing concrete then?

In relation as to what investment Airbus will make as reported, no, details have yet to be finalised, however, Airbus and EADS have made several other investments in Russia recently which while small by comparison to that reported in the link I provided, are vital all the same. A search of the EADS website media releases would provide you with more information.

If you're asking about the A350 / B787 order, then no, this is just another, unexpected, twist in a hard fought sales campaign.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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UN_B732
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:55 pm

This order is ridiculous. Will it EVER be decided? So much controversy over 20 planes.
Why would they split A350 / 787? I mean I know the A350 is bigger, but they failed with the 777, so they should get all 787, as they are now all 767 (for long-haul)
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RedChili
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:34 am

If the order is split, then it's clearly for political reasons. I mean, Aeroflot has just gone through a fleet changing program aimed to reduce the number of types in their fleet. They managed to reduce the number of widebodies from five (A310, B763, B772, IL86, IL96) to two or three (B763 and IL96, while the IL86 is kept mainly for charter flights and aircraft replacement).

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 5):
they failed with the 777

They didn't fail; the 777 did make money. The problem was that they had only two frames in the fleet, and two frames means high costs. So Aeroflot realized that they would save a lot of money by replacing them with a couple of B763s.
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:56 am

Even if the order is split between Airbus and Boeing, I would expect the powerplant order to go to a single supplier. I wonder who would have the upper hand there, GE or RR.

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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 5):
This order is ridiculous. Will it EVER be decided? So much controversy over 20 planes.

Well it is an order worth over 1 Billion dollars. The Russian people deserve a thorough investigation with such a huge amount of their money going to foreign countries and leaving their economy.

It might not be the biggest order as far as Airbus or Boeing are concerned, but you have to realize that we are talking about one of the largest commitments of capital to a foreign country in the brief history of current Russia. This does deserve debate and evaluation (just like the Air India deal) as it is a government owned entity.

Politics will obviously play a role since it is the government (or at least partly) of Russia buying a foreign product. Russia has a tumultuous relationship with western countries, and an order going one way or the other will have repercussions.
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 8):
as it is a government owned entity.

51 percent government owned, to be exact.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 8):
buying a foreign product.

I'm in the nitpicking mood today, so I would like to point out that the planes will probably be leased. Aeroflot is not in the habit of buying western airplanes.
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 9):
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 8):
buying a foreign product.

I'm in the nitpicking mood today, so I would like to point out that the planes will probably be leased. Aeroflot is not in the habit of buying western airplanes.

Ok Mr. Nitpicker, I'll change my point to the point that Russia is spending massive amounts of money on foreign products.

When you are talking about governments buying foreign products (or at least partially government owned entities) you are going to get a huge fuss regardless of who it is and how much is being spent.
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:55 am

This could be interesting in terms of operating cost comparisons of both types in actual service vs what the manufacturers claim they will be. A true test to see which is the better/cheaper aircraft to operate if they actually do split the order.
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:40 am

PanAm_DC10

Many thanks again for these new infos.You are still up to date !!!!!!!! Nice , continue !!!!!!!We love these kind of infos.

The eventual split of the SU order between Airbus and Boeing brings another trouble in this long awaited order.
With so many always changing infos we receice near each week , i still stay in the same position , being :"We will know 100% exactly the manufacturer (s) who will gain this order when it will be 100% signed".
 
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 5):
This order is ridiculous. Will it EVER be decided? So much controversy over 20 planes.
Why would they split A350 / 787? I mean I know the A350 is bigger, but they failed with the 777, so they should get all 787, as they are now all 767 (for long-haul)

Maybe the order will be split in such a way that Aeroflot gets one type and the other russian airliners the other one?
 
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 6):
They didn't fail; the 777 did make money. The problem was that they had only two frames in the fleet, and two frames means high costs. So Aeroflot realized that they would save a lot of money by replacing them with a couple of B763s.

 checkmark 

I really don't think that they would split the order between those two aircraft. As mentioned above, they are trying to reduce the number of fleet types, and ordering two different planes won't help.

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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:26 am

I personally think they should go for all 787 with 8 seat in economy class. Should there be a significant increase in fuel price, they will be able convert 8 seat to 9 seat in row and still keep the economy seat cheap. but 9 seat in row in a350 would be too cramped even though i love airbus. But the maintenance issue has to be looked at as 787 with all composite.
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:16 am

I didn't know that it was ONLY based on not having enough fleet types.
I guess what I read somewhere was wrong.. thanks for correcting my info!


We'll see how they do. If they could do it with all 787s (how they are now managing with 767s), I would prefer to have them do that.
But, if demand keeps growing, their may be an argument for splitting the order, but they would only have 10 of each type.
What now?
 
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 16):
I didn't know that it was ONLY based on not having enough fleet types.

You can read more about it in several articles on the Aeroflot site:

http://www.aeroflot.ru/eng/news.asp?ob_no=713&d_no=2527
http://www.aeroflot.ru/eng/news.asp?ob_no=713&d_no=2509
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:06 am

Interesting development... maybe the A350 will end up complementing the 787 quite well (or vice-versa).
 
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:23 am

This order could easily go either way, unfortunately the A350 is certainly getting the table scraps when it comes to orders recently. I'll put my money on the 787 for this order if it ever happens. I think Boeing has a stronger product here and an even stronger marketing machine.
 
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RE: Boeing: Aeroflot May Split A350 / B787 Order

Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:47 pm

FCFC, again you are welcome, I'm pleased we can always have a good discussion. I too aggree that it is a case of waiting until the airplanes are delivered and flying given the many aspects of this RFP which have been reported....still waiting  Wink

RedChili Thank you too for the information and links you have provided, appreciate it.

This will be one interesting result when finalised and if they do split the order they will be the first carrier, not Leasing Co, to order from both OEMs

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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