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N328KF
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Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:37 am

Unfortunately, a short block only:
Lufthansa Considers Passenger, Freight Versions of Boeing 747-8
March 9, 2006 12:18 EST -- Deutsche Lufthansa AG, Europe's second-largest airline, said it's interested in both passenger and freight versions of Boeing Co.'s planned 747-8 airliner.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conews&tkr=BA:US

EDIT: typo

[Edited 2006-03-10 03:43:00]
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leelaw
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interestedin 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:40 am

I'm not sure why, when LH can "misuse" the A380.  Smile
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Ozair
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:12 pm

Not surprising really, LF are big in the cargo market and the 747 is the undisputed king of this area.

With such a large current fleet of 747 passenger aircraft it also is not hard to continue with the same pilots, cabin and maintenance staff and support facilities, if the economics are right of course!  Wink
 
dalecary
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:16 pm

Here's the full article:

By Susanna Ray and James Gunsalus
March 9 (Bloomberg) -- Deutsche Lufthansa AG, Europe's
second-largest airline, said it's interested in both passenger
and freight versions of Boeing Co.'s planned 747-8 airliner.
Lufthansa is giving Boeing proposals on how the Cologne,
Germany-based airline would want both the 747-8, a proposed
longer version of its largest airliner, and the new 787 model
configured in the event it buys the planes, Boeing Germany
President Horst Teltschik said in an interview in Berlin.
Boeing approved production of the 450-seat 747-8 in November
in a challenge to Airbus SAS's 550-seat A380 as the Chicago-based
company tries to hold onto the jumbo-jet market it created almost
four decades ago. The A380 will overtake the current 420-seat 747
model as the world's biggest commercial aircraft when it enters
service later this year.
Lufthansa will have the world's second-biggest fleet of
A380s once all 15 are delivered starting in 2008. That wouldn't
damp its interest in Boeing's giant plane, Michael Lamberty, a
Lufthansa spokesman, said in an interview today in Berlin.
``We think we have an advantage, because Lufthansa hasn't
ordered Boeing planes in eight years, so they run the risk of
becoming dependent on Airbus,'' Teltschik said.
The German airline plans a ``large order, in the
billions,'' for either the 787 or Airbus's competing A350 in
2006, Lamberty said. ``This is the big year for plane
decisions.''

Very interesting and quite indicative of a large potential 748/787 order IMO.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:36 pm

I'd imagine that there's an awful lot of politics in this.

BA, Lufthansa, and Air France are obvious targets for Boeing in pre-selling the 748. But Blair and Chirac have very publicly identified themselves with Airbus in general, and the A380 in particular. Merkel is new to the job but must be equally involved. So they'll all be leaning on their flag-carriers to stick with Airbus; or, if they insist on buying Boeings because they're the best commercial choice, to delay any public announcements as long as they can.

BA just said that they have a 'preliminary agreement' on 777s with Boeing. I wouldn't be at all surprised if all three airlines have similar 'agreements' on the 748; and very possibly 787s as well.

What counts at this stage is securing delivery slots; formal orders and public announcements can be delayed until later. In view of the political angle, Boeing would be more than happy to play along.
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
Merkel is new to the job but must be equally involved

This is a leap of confidence on your part. Merkel has shown that she doesn't give two shits about the status quo if it is inconvenient for her.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
NAV20
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:51 pm

You could very well be right, N328KF. But she's still a politician. She'd be as interested as the other two in making sure that any announcements that will lead to 'Jobs To Be Lost?' headlines should be carefully-timed; preferably combined with a lot of 'good news' employment stories in other industrial fields.
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TinkerBelle
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:17 pm

It sure as hell sounds like the 748 is starting to blow some heat Airbus way. I know it hasn't ben ordered yet but with all the talk about blue chip airlines 'looking at' the 748, Airbus must be taking notice. Anyways, it'd make sense for LH to order the 748 but we all know how politics can come into play here.
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glacote
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:07 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
BA, Lufthansa, and Air France are obvious targets for Boeing in pre-selling the 748. But Blair and Chirac have very publicly identified themselves with Airbus in general, and the A380 in particular.

This quote does not live to the level of your usual comments... Indeed AF was the launche customer of the B777, publicly slammed A340 economics, whereas LH was recently feature on Airbus frontpage and its fleet acknowledges their "loyalty" to Airbus. I won't even comment on BA being pushed by Blair to go the A380 way...

Are you the real NAV20 or did you hack his account?
 
trex8
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:23 pm

Quoting Glacote (Reply 8):
Indeed AF was the launche customer of the B777,

their first order was in 96!
 
columba
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:50 pm

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 3):
Very interesting and quite indicative of a large potential 748/787 order IMO.

I really hope so and believe it is very likely......
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
PanHAM
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:10 pm

Mrs.Merkel has no influence whatsoever on a commercial decision since Lufthansa is not State owned anymore but a fully privately owned company, listed on the Stock Exchange of the largest 30 German companies (DAX).

The times of Political interferenace are gone, at least in Germany, I cannot speak for France or Britain, but I see AF operating 773s instead of 346s.

The "mis-use" of 380s would be prohobotove for a commercially successful company. There has been a lot of speculation about LH's future orders, but chances for the 747-8 and the 787 are good since they meet the requirements of LH in many sectors.
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columba
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:20 pm

A few weeks ago there was a thread starting like this:

Quoting Bolu340 (Thread starter):
LH will announce a big long range order in March which will affect as well A300600 Fleet.
Lets wait and expect big surprises!!
Best Regards

It looks like there is a little bit more in that rumor than many people have thought.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
N1120A
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:29 pm

This isn't new news. LH has been interested in a 747 of this size for several years now. The greater engine efficiency only add to it.
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:27 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 9):
Quoting Glacote (Reply 8):
Indeed AF was the launche customer of the B777,

their first order was in 96!

To some extend, they were launch customers for the 777, the 777-300ER to be precise.  Wink

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
I see AF operating 773s instead of 346s.

This is also because AF has a real love affair with GE. Had the A346 offered a GE option, then we might have both fleet types flying.

LH won't let themselves be influenced by politics when it comes to their fleet. LH is a private company, and despite possible critique by any politician, they can choose the fleet they want. And also, they made it very clear that they don't want to be operating aircraft from a single manufacturer, which means Boeing is still a prime contender along with Airbus for the next LH widebody order.

One priority (although probably not the highest at the moment) for LH would be to replace the 767s DE is operating, and I believe the best choice would be the 787-8, because it has the suitable range and capacity. Then comes the question of the 787/A350 and 747-8 and also an A300 replacement. LF is surely interested in the type, and they still wet lease 742s they used to own after they phased them out because they need the heavy lift capability. Their MD-11F fleet won't cut it, and the A380F is not the right aircraft for oversized cargo (just look at 5X and their order for 747-400Fs, which they plan to operate alongside the A380 for oversized cargo, while the A380 will be used primarily as a parcel freighter).

As for LH getting the 747-8I, Mayrhuber said himself that this was the plane they wanted 10 years ago, and maybe to some extend still want. The A380 won't cut it as a 1 to 1 replacement for their big 747 fleet. The 747s can operate into places where demands don't justify the capacity of the A380 and where the A346 is too small. I stand by my previous posts by saying LH will eventually order the 747-8 in some way.
 
na
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:33 pm

Good to hear that again after similar comments two weeks ago at the Singapore show. I´m pretty sure LH will buy 747-8Is. LH doesn´t want a monopoly with one manufacturer and the new Jumbo Jet fits perfectly into their fleet.

I always wondered how LH Cargo can to with MD-11Fs alone when all competitors operate 744Fs. Theer must be plenty of routes where a 744F makes much more sense. The competition proves that. LH Cargo is the only major Cargo operator relying on MD11s alone.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:10 pm

LH cargo simply cannot do with just the MD11s, a cargo airline that size and with their mission simply needs the 74F. The decision to sell the remaining calssics to Air Atlanta was Ok since it would not be economical to operate a mini fleet of 3 to 5. They will have access to 744Fs through JADE and an order for a combination fleet of 747-8F and passenger version makes much sense.

The question is - do they still need the 777F as an MD11 replacement in the long run. Rather yes, if they want to keep the market share

Next, the 787 would be an ideal replacement not only for the DE 767s but also for the A300s and for the 340s as well. One type in various versions could do the trick, much better than the A350.

Lets see what happens in the next 2 weeks.
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Hirnie
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:12 pm

I think it`s not a question if LH will buy the 747-8 but when.
Perhaps they are waiting untill Boeing has a launch cutomer for the 747-8 because they don`t want to become one themselves. This is what they did with the A380.
The 747-8 makes sense for LH between the A346 and the A380.

Regards
 
PanHAM
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:40 pm

Lufthansa was the launch customer for the 737 and LH has over 45 years of experience as a Boeing customer. They bought the -100 -200 -400 versions of the 747, they have these planes in the fleet since 1970, the new version could not be worse than the 340-600 I guess.

Boeing would be delighted to have them back ordering new planes and sure as hell sweeten the deal as much as LH wants.
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columba
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:53 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
Boeing would be delighted to have them back ordering new planes and sure as hell sweeten the deal as much as LH wants.



Quoting Dalecary (Reply 3):
Lufthansa is giving Boeing proposals on how the Cologne,
Germany-based airline would want both the 747-8, a proposed
longer version of its largest airliner, and the new 787 model
configured in the event it buys the planes, Boeing Germany
President Horst Teltschik said in an interview in Berlin.

Would be a hell of a deal for Boeing and Airbus knows that, too but it would not be such a loss for Airbus when LH is ordering additional A380s.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
Next, the 787 would be an ideal replacement not only for the DE 767s but also for the A300s and for the 340s as well. One type in various versions could do the trick, much better than the A350.

That is the bid advantage of the 787 and what makes it so interesting to LH -let is see in how far LH is still planning with DE they are many rumors but if DE stays and is in the shape of ordering new planes the 787 would be an ideal replacement for the 767 and 757-300.
The 757-300 are hard to sell so maybe Boeing could take them back and give DE/LH a good price on the 787.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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zeke
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:09 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 14):
The 747s can operate into places where demands don't justify the capacity of the A380 and where the A346 is too small.

Which routes would they be ?

What is the projected growth on those routes by the time the 748 would come into service ?

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 14):
I stand by my previous posts by saying LH will eventually order the 747-8 in some way.

I don't see them needing to be in a rush to order them considering the time frame to the earliest delivery date.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
LH cargo simply cannot do with just the MD11s, a cargo airline that size and with their mission simply needs the 74F. The decision to sell the remaining calssics to Air Atlanta was Ok since it would not be economical to operate a mini fleet of 3 to 5.

I would have thought for their long sector flights, very little difference between the 748F and 777F in capability. I am guessing it would be in the order of an additional 15t in the 748F above a 777F. Don't have hard data on the 748F or the 777F. Would be interested in a comparison between the two on Asian flights like FRA-HKG-FRA, FRA-SIN-FRA.

777F would almost double the payload over a MD11 on longer sectors.
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FlySSC
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:41 pm

Quoting Glacote (Reply 8):
AF was the launche customer of the B777



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 9):
their first order was in 96!

AF was the launch customer of the B777-300ER Version.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
But Blair and Chirac have very publicly identified themselves with Airbus in general,

Since when Blair, Chirac and Merkel are buying aircraft for BA, AF and LH ???  sarcastic 
The time for "political" orders is gone for BA, AF, and LH.


Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
Lufthansa was the launch customer for the 737 and LH has over 45 years of experience as a Boeing customer. They bought the -100 -200 -400 versions of the 747, they have these planes in the fleet since 1970

That's not enough reason for ordering the B747-8 if they don't really need it.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:43 pm

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 17):
Perhaps they are waiting untill Boeing has a launch cutomer for the 747-8 because they don`t want to become one themselves.

What's teh downside to being a launch customer if at all you're gonna order it pretty early?? I can only think of upsides.
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JoFMO
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:49 pm

I don´t think LH should order the 748 right now. Their 744 still have some time before to be removed. Over the next 5 years LH can see how demand between the 380 and 346 can be matched. I think they should at first get some operational date to see if a plane between the 346 and 380 is needed.

Regarding the 787/350 Boing has the advantage that they could offer LH something to replace their A300, but on the other hand Airbus has the better replacement for LH`s 343. That could change when Boing really comes out with an 787-10, but that has to be seen. So I would say Boeing-Airbus 40:40, first service Boeing.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:54 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 23):
I don´t think LH should order the 748 right now. Their 744 still have some time before to be removed. Over the next 5 years LH can see how demand between the 380 and 346 can be matched. I think they should at first get some operational date to see if a plane between the 346 and 380 is needed.

The only problem with that is they'll lose valuable slots unless they do what BA just did.
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zeke
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:01 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 24):
The only problem with that is they'll lose valuable slots unless they do what BA just did.

Sounds like sales hype, hear the same words in a car yard.

Making do with what you have and having cash in your pocket for a rainy day is better than being broke with a flash car.
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boeingguy1
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:24 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 23):
I don´t think LH should order the 748 right now. Their 744 still have some time before to be removed.

It dosent matter if they order them now or in 2007... the 748 wont have its maiden flight for a few years, giving plenty of time for the 744s to be used to their potential.
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PanHAM
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 21):

That's not enough reason for ordering the B747-8 if they don't really need it.

They do need a replacement for 30 744s and they need a freighter in that size as well. The 744s mjight not be replaced 1:1 with 747-8s but an order between 15 and 20 plus some freighters The other 10-15 might be replaced by A380s or 346s.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 20):

I would have thought for their long sector flights, very little difference between the 748F and 777F in capability. I am guessing it would be in the order of an additional 15t in the 748F above a 777F. Don't have hard data on the 748F or the 777F. Would be interested in a comparison between the two on Asian flights like FRA-HKG-FRA, FRA-SIN-FRA..

The difference on the max payload is about 30t - 140t in the 747-8 to 110 tons in the 777F. The sector lenghts are important however, they might fly FRA SIN or FRA HKG n/s, but the return leg would most certainly be one stop.

They usually go for max payload with all, so they use up the 90 tons on the MD11 as well, unless market dictates otherwidse.
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JoFMO
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 24):
The only problem with that is they'll lose valuable slots unless they do what BA just did.



Quoting Boeingguy1 (Reply 26):
It dosent matter if they order them now or in 2007... the 748 wont have its maiden flight for a few years, giving plenty of time for the 744s to be used to their potential.

But what I mean is that they should wait and see if they really need a 3rd large widebody aircraft (346, 748 and 380).

If the market really goes into Boeing´s predicted direction with more point to point and higher frequencies, LH will have enough problems to fill the 380 they already ordered. Why put so much eggs in one basket. LH has the time to follow a wait and see approach. If there is really a need for so many large widebodies inside LH, they can still react in some years.

No reason to hurry up now.

I see much more need for an 787/350 sized aircraft in LH´s fleet.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 22):
What's teh downside to being a launch customer if at all you're gonna order it pretty early?? I can only think of upsides.

One of the problems of being a launch customer is that, the early frames might have teething issues which are resolved in later frames. Some recent examples are the early A346s, which have overweight wings, and the new E-jets, which had (still have?) issues with the avionics. Also, did the early UA B777 had some problems with their APUs (or was it something else?)?

Tony
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trex8
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 21):
AF was the launch customer of the B777-300ER Version.

not to beat this to death but while AF was the first customer to receive it, it was BR who ordered it first.
 
Hirnie
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:56 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
Lufthansa was the launch customer for the 737 and LH has over 45 years of experience as a Boeing customer. They bought the -100 -200 -400 versions of the 747, they have these planes in the fleet since 1970, the new version could not be worse than the 340-600 I guess.



Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 22):
What's teh downside to being a launch customer if at all you're gonna order it pretty early?? I can only think of upsides.

Every new type of aircraft had,has and will have some technicall problems. Some more, some less. Those problems appear when beeing introduced enroute, so the launch customer(s) is/are the airline(s) that have to coupe with such problems most.
LH made their experiences in the past and that`s why they moved away from beeing a launch customer in the last years. Perhaps they changed their mind again, but for sure they aren`t in a hurry regarding 747s.

Regards
 
pelican
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:02 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 22):
What's teh downside to being a launch customer if at all you're gonna order it pretty early?? I can only think of upsides.

Wellrna new aircraft could have teething problems and a launch customer wouldrnsuffer from those problems. The delivery could be delayed - just lookrnat the A380 - which causes also inconveniences. So if you order laterrnyou won't have to deal with those problems.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
Merkelrnis new to the job but must be equally involved. So they'll all bernleaning on their flag-carriers to stick with Airbus; or, if they insistrnon buying Boeings because they're the best commercial choice, to delay any public announcements as long as they can.

Some people have too much fantasy - I can't imagine how a politician could put a privately owned and DAX traded company successful under pressure in order to influence their decisions. Maybe the MP of Hesse could delay decisions about an extension of EDDF to put pressure on LH, but he would be stupid to do so, because he would loose voters if this became public...

pelican
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting SNATH (Reply 29):
One of the problems of being a launch customer is that, the early frames might have teething issues which are resolved in later frames.



Quoting Pelican (Reply 32):
Wellrna new aircraft could have teething problems and a launch customer wouldrnsuffer from those problems. The delivery could be delayed - just lookrnat the A380 - which causes also inconveniences. So if you order laterrnyou won't have to deal with those problems.

Thanx for the reply guys.. I guess my point was if they just don't wanna be the launch customer but will order the plane maybe as the 2nd customer (or rather pretty soon anyways), they'll still encounter the same problems with the aircraft as will the launch customer since they are among the first to order it so they might as well take the discounts and order the damn thing... but I get the drift.  biggrin 
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zeke
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
The difference on the max payload is about 30t - 140t in the 747-8 to 110 tons in the 777F. The sector lenghts are important however, they might fly FRA SIN or FRA HKG n/s, but the return leg would most certainly be one stop.

Thanks, thought in flight int article said the 748F was back around 110t or less with sectors above 5000 nm. Also thought the MD11F was being loaded with 50-60t for the sector length. Made the 777F look like the best machine.
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na
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 28):
I see much more need for an 787/350 sized aircraft in LH´s fleet.

LH has masses of A340-300s and A330s, of which all are newer than 50% of the 744 fleet, and most less than 10 years old. LH doesn´t need to hurry too much in this midsize widebody segment. At least not more than about what replaces the 15+ 744s it received in 1989-92, which will be old by LH standards right then when the 748 comes.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:08 pm

After reading the aforementioned article, I would guess that LH will likely order the 747-8I and the A-350. They like the 747, but for medium size and short haul they definately have a history that leans to Airbus.
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:23 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 34):
Thanks, thought in flight int article said the 748F was back around 110t or less with sectors above 5000 nm. Also thought the MD11F was being loaded with 50-60t for the sector length. Made the 777F look like the best machine.

The data I have gives these payloads for 5000 nm range:

747-8F: 124 tonne
777F: 102 tonne
MD-11F: 70 tonne
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 37):
747-8F: 124 tonne

Thanks from Flight 14 feb - 113t. What range is that for you ?
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:32 pm

The 747-8 is not a surprise, they've been asking Boeing for it for years now.

Ther real news is:

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 3):
The German airline plans a ``large order, in the
billions,'' for either the 787 or Airbus's competing A350 in
2006, Lamberty said. ``This is the big year for plane
decisions.''

I think they'll go for the A350 here, just makes more sense to replace their A343s with it than with the 787. But Boeing still has a chance, I would say, because the 747-8 and the 787 are good together. Anyway, don't tell me about politics, LH is free to do what they want.
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:34 pm

Probably they will end in ordering as follows:

A388 add 5
B748I around 20
A346 add 13
as a replacement for the B744 plus little increase in capacity

-The A330 can replace the A306.
-The A358 will replace the B767 from DE.
-LH could replace both A343 and A330 on Longhaul flights with A359

B744SF 7 for LH Cargo ex LH
B748F around 5 for LH Cargo

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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 39):
I think they'll go for the A350 here, just makes more sense to replace their A343s with it than with the 787.

I thought the 783 was being considered to replace the A306, haven't heard about replacement of the "hair dryer" powered (but sleek) A343?
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:45 pm

Leelaw, IMO the A300-600 replacement at Lufthansa is over-hyped. The fleet is quite small, and partially leased out. There are only few routes where the A306s are deployed these days. I tend to say that we will not see a new type introduced as a A300 replacement, as this role can be filled by a mix of A330 and A321s. Slots, even though often mentioned as an issue, are not such a big deal, and this can be managed. They are "nice to have" but not a necessity.
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 34):

Thanks, thought in flight int article said the 748F was back around 110t or less with sectors above 5000 nm. Also thought the MD11F was being loaded with 50-60t for the sector length. Made the 777F look like the best machine.

The figures I quoted are for the max payload. It may be economical to run any of the three over 5000 miles with a lesser payload, especially eastbound, but westbound from Asia you will fill as many kilos into the plane as possible, unless the stuff is volumetric and you get paid for the volume freight.

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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 40):
A388 add 5
B748I around 20
A346 add 13
as a replacement for the B744 plus little increase in capacity

I'm not sure about the A346, they still have seven of them coming, I'd rather guess they'll someday realize their ten options on the A380 and order about 20-25 747-8.

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 41):
I thought the 783 was being considered to replace the A306, haven't heard about replacement of the "hair dryer" powered (but sleek) A343?

I think the A306 will be the first to leave, since it is really old. I guess the A343s will be slowly phased out, the A350 is a lot better concerning fuel burn and LH can't get A350s before at least 2012, when some of their A343s will already be almost 20 years old. The A330s might stay for while, they are still new.
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:12 am

My . LH will order the 747-8, both flavors and will jump on the 787 bandwagon, probably the Dash 3 version. I found it interesting that Lufthansa's CEO, earlier this year, specifically cautioned about becoming dependent on Airbus.

[Edited 2006-03-10 16:20:30]
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 45):
will jump on the 787 bandwagon, probably the Dash 3 version

If LH goes for the 783, is it then a contender/candidate to be a launch customer for the 787-10 as an A343 replacement?

[Edited 2006-03-10 16:21:55]
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 46):
If LH goes for the 783, is it then a contender to be a launch customer for the 787-10 as a A343 replacement?

I wouldn't be surprised, and it sounds like you wouldn't be either.
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:28 am

isn't a 787-9 sufficient to replace the A343, I thought the -10 was for people who wanted even more capacity than a A343/772
 
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RE: Bloomberg: Lufthansa Interested In 748I, 748F

Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 39):
Quoting Dalecary (Reply 3):
The German airline plans a ``large order, in the
billions,'' for either the 787 or Airbus's competing A350 in
2006, Lamberty said. ``This is the big year for plane
decisions.''
I think they'll go for the A350 here, just makes more sense to replace their A343s with it than with the 787. But Boeing still has a chance, I would say, because the 747-8 and the 787 are good together. Anyway, don't tell me about politics, LH is free to do what they want.



Quoting Dalecary (Reply 3):
Lufthansa is giving Boeing proposals on how the Cologne,
Germany-based airline would want both the 747-8, a proposed
longer version of its largest airliner, and the new 787 model
configured in the event it buys the planes,

If you read this it sounds more like they are heading towards the 787.

Besides LH wanted a joint Star Alliance purchase and most Star Alliance airlines have ordered the 787.
Another reason why the 787 is likely to be chosen is that it is not only a replacement for the A340 but with the 787-3 an A300 replacement as well: Despite what many people say LH could need the 787-3.
I doubt that they would order the 787-3 alone though but together with some -8/-9s or even -10s they would have covered an A340 and A300 replacement with just one aircraft. It would reduce costs.
There is and there will be a big use for a "continental-shovel" for LH. The A300 is being used on a lot of routes within Europe.
It is a frequent visitor in London, Lisbon, Athens and other European cities, within Germany it flies between Hamburg and Frankfurt and Frankfurt-Berlin on a regular basis.
On these routes it also carries lots of cargo in its belly on which LH and LH Cargo are making good money -but this has been discussed several times in every LH new order thread over the last years.
Time will tell whether they go Airbus or Boeing on this one but I have a high feeling that this time it will be Boeing. It is the first time in years that Boeing offers the right plane for LH needs for the right time.
As LH was replacing the DC 10s it was either the MD 11 or A340, the 777 was not on the table, the A320 was better for LHs need than the 737-400 which was dropped a few years after it was introduced and the NG came too late for LH, too. But this time Boeing has a really good product with the 787

[Edited 2006-03-10 16:44:22]
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