ckfred
Posts: 4714
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:10 pm

I noticed that Southwest has no redeyes arriving at MDW from the West Coast between 5am and 6am. Why is it that WN has no redeye flights? I know that UA and AA have a number of flights arriving at ORD between 5 and 6 in the morning, so that they can connect with the first and second bank of departures.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12389
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:42 pm

That apparently been their policy for years. Probably opering night owl flights isn't some thing they believe to be profitable.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4258
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:58 pm

That and they do all the cleaning and MX stuff on their planes at night too.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
 
steeler83
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):
That apparently been their policy for years. Probably opering night owl flights isn't some thing they believe to be profitable.

How many people are there who would like to board a plane at 2 or 3 in the morning... Red eyes in general would be a killer for me; I know I wouldn't want to book a red-eye. Then again, I have spent 26 hours on a private coach bus going from Lancaster, PA to New Orleans last year for the Nokia Sugar Bowl and that didn't bother me...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Sean-SAN-
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:48 am

Actually, I heard the real reason is that the average WN customer has already had a 6-pack and bucket of KFC by 8pm... Also, they don't like missing the ESPN Sportcenter 10pm Nascar highlights. Makes it hard to stay up to catch those late flights!
 
stealth777
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:48 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:59 am

Sean,
that is a great one.  laughing 
 
jeffinbwi
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:59 am

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:10 am

I have seen this question posed to Leaders at company meetings in the past and the answer is always the same. No airline has ever been profitable with there red eye service. Unlike our competitors we do not offer service that does not have a potential for profit.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting Jeffinbwi (Reply 7):
I have seen this question posed to Leaders at company meetings in the past and the answer is always the same. No airline has ever been profitable with there red eye service. Unlike our competitors we do not offer service that does not have a potential for profit.

Well, that is one are where WN is completely wrong. Redeyes are profitable, particularly out of LAS.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
socalfive
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:37 am

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:23 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
How many people are there who would like to board a plane at 2 or 3 in the morning... Red eyes in general would be a killer for me; I know I wouldn't want to book a red-eye.

Me for one! I flew an AA redeye ten years ago from TUS to DFW a LOT, it was nice for me because I got my meetings all planned enroute, had breakfast when I landed and was set to go by 8am and out of there by 5pm landing back in TUS by 5pm. Plus, that particular flight was practically always full or very close to it.



SoCal
 
L1329II
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Well, that is one are where WN is completely wrong. Redeyes are profitable, particularly out of LAS.

Funny you should mention that. The only red eyes I have ever taken were on America West out of LAS and they were always packed. I have never heard another passenger snore except on one of these red eyes!

I dont know how they didnt make money.
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting L1329II (Reply 10):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Well, that is one are where WN is completely wrong. Redeyes are profitable, particularly out of LAS.

Funny you should mention that. The only red eyes I have ever taken were on America West out of LAS and they were always packed. I have never heard another passenger snore except on one of these red eyes!

I dont know how they didnt make money.

Call me crazy, but I'm guessing that WN, one of (or the) most successful US airlines might have discussed this once or twice without the input of the a.net 'experts', and come to a conclusion that they don't want (or need) to do a red eye flight out of LAS.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Bridogger6
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:53 am

Quoting L1329II (Reply 10):
Funny you should mention that. The only red eyes I have ever taken were on America West out of LAS and they were always packed. I have never heard another passenger snore except on one of these red eyes!

I dont know how they didnt make money.

Yep, HP's flights out of LAS are ALWAYS packed. Not only that, they provide for great aircraft utilization. HP is full of quick turns, maybe like a 30 minute turn as opposed to 10-15 with WN, but the area they might be a little better in is utilization... get those planes to the east coast and send them right back in the morning, rather than have those moneymakers (sometimes) sit on the ground all night.
 
L1329II
Posts: 285
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):
Call me crazy, but I'm guessing that WN, one of (or the) most successful US airlines might have discussed this once or twice without the input of the a.net 'experts', and come to a conclusion that they don't want (or need) to do a red eye flight out of LAS.

This website would be perfect if with every other thread we didnt have so many overblown egos trying to correct everyones thoughts or opinions!  banghead 

I was specifically referring to the LAS redeye comment and I thought I would share my memories. Nothing more, nothing less.
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
bond007
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:31 pm

Yes, and I was specifically referring to comments such as this...sorry if you thought it was yours....I should not have quoted it!

Quoting L1329II (Reply 10):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Well, that is one are where WN is completely wrong. Redeyes are profitable, particularly out of LAS.



Quoting L1329II (Reply 13):
This website would be perfect if with every other thread we didnt have so many overblown egos trying to correct everyones thoughts or opinions!

Yes, I totally agree. I'm sorry that my 'ego' might be correcting an a.net members opinion on how SWA should be run  Yeah sure

My 'overblown ego' and opinion is no less valid than yours.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:52 pm

Quoting Bridogger6 (Reply 12):
get those planes to the east coast and send them right back in the morning, rather than have those moneymakers (sometimes) sit on the ground all night.

That's it alright.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
How many people are there who would like to board a plane at 2 or 3 in the morning

Depending on where you are going, CO red eye flights to EWR leave at 1005p las local, CLE 1255a las local, and to IAH at 0115a las local. A bit late in the evening but then if your in Vegas does that really make a difference?
CO's red eye flights always seem to be full, not packed but full, depending on weather and delays back east. I can't see how WN wouldn't make any money, the product is the product no matter what time of day it is. But hey, I'm not in charge am I?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
ckfred
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:26 pm

My wife flies regularly to SEA for business. It seems that she almost always has to put in a full day of work on the last day of a trip, and then she has something scheduled for noon the next day.

In that situation, she takes the redeye, usually AA. By not flying redeyes, WN seems to ignoring the business flyer who can't leave SEA, LAX, LAS, etc. by late afternoon.
 
BA747400
Posts: 381
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:29 am

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:02 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):
Call me crazy, but I'm guessing that WN, one of (or the) most successful US airlines might have discussed this once or twice without the input of the a.net 'experts', and come to a conclusion that they don't want (or need) to do a red eye flight out of LAS.


Jimbo

Um, duh. HOWEVER, look at the topic of this thread....."WHY no Southwest Redeyes?". If they wanted to do it, we wouldnt be talking about this.

In regards to the reason why they dont redeye, is it possible that their customer base is so limited to lesure travellers that they feel the response wouldnt be that big? Companies like AA, UA, etc have a HUGH business traveller clientel that are much more willing to redeye for meetings or simply just to get home ASAP! Leasure travellers, i dont believe, would be as apt to take this move if they dont have to....

Mike
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:05 pm



I think they were talking about having redeyes out of Las Vegas. It's just one of those Southwest things that may or may not really be benefiting them. Other LCCs do redeyes and do just fine with them. I think redeyes don't fit in WNs style of operations. They specialize in one hour flights. Even long flights, they don't have that many. One flight per coast to coast city pair each day. I think it also has to do with scheduling, WN likes to keep their cabin crew happy.
 
iowaman
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:34 pm

I understand they do maintnence at night and would rather be flying during the day which makes more sense, but I know not all of there planes get maintnence every night, so I don't see why they don't keep those that don't need maintnence going.

[Edited 2006-03-13 08:35:41]
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:41 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):
Call me crazy, but I'm guessing that WN, one of (or the) most successful US airlines might have discussed this once or twice without the input of the a.net 'experts', and come to a conclusion that they don't want (or need) to do a red eye flight out of LAS.

It has nothing to do with them doing something right or wrong, simply being wrong about something. WN's no redeye policy exists because their aircraft don't have significant downtime between 6 AM and 11 PM or so. They need time to carry out things like A and B checks and random MX issues that come up and have decided to keep their fleet utilization up by turning quickly during the day as opposed to having aircraft sit for long periods of time. Saying that redeyes have never been profitable, however, is just plain short sighted.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:37 pm

Quoting BA747400 (Reply 17):
Um, duh. HOWEVER, look at the topic of this thread....."WHY no Southwest Redeyes?". If they wanted to do it, we wouldnt be talking about this.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
Saying that redeyes have never been profitable, however, is just plain short sighted.

I never said anywhere that redeyes have never been profitable!!

Um, duh, I was replying to a specific comment that "WN is completely wrong", not whether redeyes are profitable. I don't think WN said that redeyes were not profitable, although it may have been implied in this thread.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
It has nothing to do with them doing something right or wrong, simply being wrong about something.

Wrong about what?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
WN's no redeye policy exists because their aircraft don't have significant downtime between 6 AM and 11 PM or so. They need time to carry out things like A and B checks and random MX issues that come up and have decided to keep their fleet utilization up by turning quickly during the day as opposed to having aircraft sit for long periods of time.

I totally agree, and that's the answer to the question.

Quoting BA747400 (Reply 17):
In regards to the reason why they dont redeye, is it possible that their customer base is so limited to lesure travellers that they feel the response wouldnt be that big? Companies like AA, UA, etc have a HUGH business traveller clientel that are much more willing to redeye for meetings or simply just to get home ASAP! Leasure travellers, i dont believe, would be as apt to take this move if they dont have to....

I think you'll find there are just as many leisure travellers doing redeyes than business folks, especially out of Vegas. The vegas visitor doesn't want to waste a complete day getting back to the East Coast when they could be spending it (no pun intended) on the tables.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 9):
Me for one! I flew an AA redeye ten years ago from TUS to DFW

I suppose that a redeye would be better in a situation as such. Reach the destination by 7 or 8 in the morning for say, a 9 or 10 am meeting somewhere, depending on location proximity to your airport. Sure, for that I would do a redeye flight, given that most of the major Airports including PIT and PHL have a hotel right at the terminal. I actually have a question regarding that AA redeye. What equipment was used on the flights, an MD-80 or 737?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
QXatFAT
Posts: 2310
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting L1329II (Reply 10):
The only red eyes I have ever taken were on America West out of LAS and they were always packed

I will second that. I have free flights out of the wazoo with America West. I fly them all the time. I fly out of LAS-FAT all the time on a red eye if you want to call it that. Arriving at 1am but then also traveling to other destinations where I actually arrive early morning. America West makes a great profit on these flights. Always packed! Good point L1329II

Quoting Jeffinbwi (Reply 7):
No airline has ever been profitable with there red eye service.

WRONG! Sorry but like mentioned, HP makes a good amount of money off of the red eyes. Question, B6 make money on their red eyes? IAD-OAK? I have famliy in DC that take this flight constantly. Always saying that the flight is pretty full.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
socalfive
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:37 am

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
What equipment was used on the flights, an MD-80 or 737?

They were all MD80s, this was back about 95 and 96 before the AA 737s.
 
Sean-SAN-
Posts: 690
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:02 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:53 am

Not only are our (HP) redeyes usually full out of LAS... but they also provide relief when pax miss their flights during the day (long security lines at LAS, late connecting flights). It's alot cheaper to re-book them on the redeye than it is to pay for a hotel or re-book them on another airline.
 
jetfuel
Posts: 1027
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RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:21 am

The simple fact here is an airline that cares about their employees so they can be home in bed with their families at night
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
QXatFAT
Posts: 2310
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:27 am

What I have found out on some of my red-eyes are that the FA and F/O Captins are single people. I have talked to a few on AA and HP and they say that its better to fly and get the money for the over nights. You still get some rest on the flight as well. My gf is a FA for AE and loves late late nights. I see her during the day then.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
iowaman
Posts: 3878
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 26):
The simple fact here is an airline that cares about their employees so they can be home in bed with their families at night

Lol, WN pilots are always on 3 or 4 day trips I believe, so it's not like they are home every night anyways.
 
dartland
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:09 am

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 26):
The simple fact here is an airline that cares about their employees so they can be home in bed with their families at night

That's a joke. WN doesn't fly red-eyes because they don't believe it's profitable FOR THEM. Things like their typical customer, mx issues, utilization during the day, etc, all add up that they'd rather have their planes on the ground at night.

It has nothing to do with "caring about their employees". I'm not saying they don't care, I'm only saying that you don't exercise that care by refraining from flying overnight. I'm sure there are enough WN employees who wouldn't mind working red-eyes to work the several daily flights they would have if they changed their mind.

In my mind, WN could make money with red-eyes, but it would increase risk (e.g. mx problems screwing up flights throughout a whole day because there was no time to service the plane at night). As of today, clearly they do not think the benefit outweights the risk.

Also, red-eyes are a capability (managing employees, your fleet, serices, etc. 24 hours a day vs. 18 hours a day). Developing that capability has a cost and risks associated with it.
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:14 am

Let's not confuse 'packed flights' and 'making money' with being profitable. Don't assume just because a flight is full that it's making a profit.

If only it were that simple. Not many airlines are making money, and it's not simply because of their low load factors.

Quoting Dartland (Reply 29):
In my mind, WN could make money with red-eyes, but it would increase risk (e.g. mx problems screwing up flights throughout a whole day because there was no time to service the plane at night). As of today, clearly they do not think the benefit outweights the risk.

Yes, I agree, although I don't equate 'making money' with making a profit, with all the other risks involved. If they have to purchase more aircraft just to run a 24hr operation, then adding revenue doesn't necessarily mean adding income.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 21):
Um, duh, I was replying to a specific comment that "WN is completely wrong", not whether redeyes are profitable. I don't think WN said that redeyes were not profitable, although it may have been implied in this thread.



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 21):
Wrong about what?

This is what I was replying to

Quoting Jeffinbwi (Reply 7):
I have seen this question posed to Leaders at company meetings in the past and the answer is always the same. No airline has ever been profitable with there red eye service. Unlike our competitors we do not offer service that does not have a potential for profit.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
This is what I was replying to

Quoting Jeffinbwi (Reply 7):
I have seen this question posed to Leaders at company meetings in the past and the answer is always the same. No airline has ever been profitable with there red eye service. Unlike our competitors we do not offer service that does not have a potential for profit.

Right, it's highly unlikely this is what WN said in those words.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:41 pm

Quoting Bridogger6 (Reply 12):
Yep, HP's flights out of LAS are ALWAYS packed. Not only that, they provide for great aircraft utilization. HP is full of quick turns, maybe like a 30 minute turn as opposed to 10-15 with WN

I wanna see an EMPTY plane turn in 15 minutes and i will put my ID on the table and never set foot on the ramp again
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:44 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 33):
I wanna see an EMPTY plane turn in 15 minutes and i will put my ID on the table and never set foot on the ramp again

I hate to kill your job, but WN scheduled 10 minute turns during their early days. Now it is more like 30, but I have seen them turn a full 73G at BUR in 15 minutes in more recent times.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:50 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
but I have seen them turn a full 73G at BUR in 15 minutes in more recent times.

I've seen them do it at BUR, MDW, and LAS numerous times.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Simpilicity
Posts: 881
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:21 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:21 pm

Quoting BA747400 (Reply 17):
In regards to the reason why they dont redeye, is it possible that their customer base is so limited to lesure travellers that they feel the response wouldnt be that big? Companies like AA, UA, etc have a HUGH business traveller clientel that are much more willing to redeye for meetings or simply just to get home ASAP! Leasure travellers, i dont believe, would be as apt to take this move if they dont have to....

What rubbish. WN (like DJ here in OZ) has huge business type customer base (esp. small business person who pays his own fares). They could sell fares to business types & fill up aircraft with good yield management & if necessary dump a few seats to suit lesiure travellers who will travel at almost anytime, to save a few bucks, unless they have kids in tow.
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:45 pm

I've flown numerous red-eyes on each of following routes muliple times, on many different days: LAX-ORD, SFO-ORD, SEA-MDW, LAS-ORD, LAS/DFW/MDW, and LAS/MSP/MDW. My anecdotal experience is that loads range from nearly empty to full, although I'd have to say that on most days the loads tend to be on the lighter side on, even out of LAS.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Simpilicity
Posts: 881
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:21 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:53 pm

What doesn't seem to have been mentioned when talking about loads is, load factors are fine, but yields are what matters. Anyone can give seats away at a loss to fill aircraft although could do this for percentage of seats as long as some business types paying high end fares to balance yield.
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:18 pm

Ok but I wanna see the footage. The fastest turn I have ever seen ( and been a part of) was an HP 319 it was about 35 min (mostly because of fueling). Baggage and cargo were done in about 15-20 min.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:21 pm

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 38):
What doesn't seem to have been mentioned when talking about loads is, load factors are fine, but yields are what matters. Anyone can give seats away at a loss to fill aircraft although could do this for percentage of seats as long as some business types paying high end fares to balance yield.

On an purely anecdotal level as a frequent red-eye passenger, I've seldom paid a premium fare to take a red-eye flight. In fact, I've frequently booked the lowest possible economy return fare (I'm usually content to fly economy westbound) which still allows me to use frequent-flyer miles to upgrade to first class on the red-eye return flight home (particularly if the return flight is crowded in economy). UA has killed this strategy out of LAS when they converted it to an exclusively Ted station.

[Edited 2006-03-14 09:44:16]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:10 pm

Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 26):
The simple fact here is an airline that cares about their employees so they can be home in bed with their families at night

All their employees are married with children? That's amazing. Is it a requirement?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
They need time to carry out things like A and B checks and random MX issues that come up and have decided to keep their fleet utilization up by turning quickly during the day as opposed to having aircraft sit for long periods of time.

So their mx people don't get to spend nights at home in bed with their families? Also, there are no random mx issues during the day on their ac? Is it against company policy to have them during the day? Every time I have left LAS on a CO redeye I have seen all sorts of WN ac sitting at darkened gates with not a single thing being done to them.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
If they have to purchase more aircraft just to run a 24hr operation, then adding revenue doesn't necessarily mean adding income.

Are you saying that WN, with over 400 ac, would need to buy more 737's to turn for 24 hours? Perhaps it has more to do with airlines like CO, AA, and UA being international carriers with flights in the air around the world 24/7. Their dispatchers and mx people have to be at work 24/7 so running red eyes doesn't greatly increase the work load for anyone.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
Now it is more like 30, but I have seen them turn a full 73G at BUR in 15 minutes in more recent times.



Quoting Leelaw (Reply 35):
I've seen them do it at BUR, MDW, and LAS numerous times.

They couldn't have been going too far then. Even if the fueler was waiting at the gate with all his equipment ready to hook up and start pumping, he couldn't pump much to be off in 15 minutes. You still have to ground the ac, check the numbers, hook up, pump to the appropriate tanks, disconnect, fill out the fuel slip, then run it up to the flight deck. And yes, I have experience at fueling 737's.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:18 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 41):
So their mx people don't get to spend nights at home in bed with their families?

No, instead they get to pick their kids up from school

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 41):
Also, there are no random mx issues during the day on their ac?

I didn't say they don't fix their aircraft during the day. I said they carry out most regular MX at night

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 41):
They couldn't have been going too far then. Even if the fueler was waiting at the gate with all his equipment ready to hook up and start pumping, he couldn't pump much to be off in 15 minutes. You still have to ground the ac, check the numbers, hook up, pump to the appropriate tanks, disconnect, fill out the fuel slip, then run it up to the flight deck. And yes, I have experience at fueling 737's.

BUR flights often have their fuel tankered in and in the old days, they were on intra-Texas hops
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
jeffinbwi
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:59 am

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:13 pm

Didn't mean to upset anybody. Before I was a Southwest Flight Attendant, I was a Customer Service Supervisor. A few years ago I attended "Quest", a Supervisor training course. We would have guest speakers from different higher ups and this subject came up. Yes Jimbo, I made up the wording (note no direct quotes in my original posting) but the bottom line is most Customers will choose a red eye only when there is not an alternative. This point has already been made but just because a red eye looks full doesn't mean its a profitable route, most Customers are on the most barebone priced tickets on those flights.

Now I personally would guess that from a repositioning aspect I would think a red eye could lead to a more profitable flight. For example America West's red eye from LAS to BWI usually turns BWI to PHX leaving around 7:30AM. This flight has been packed on all the times I have tried to non-rev on it. It connects in PHX to everywhere in the West, Mexico, Canada, you name it. Ill bet this flight has a lot more last minute business traveler fares. I would bet that if you averaged the red eye's loss to this morning PHX flight's profit you would come out ahead.

I personally think that Southwest could have a profitable red eye from both LAX and LAS to BWI. These flights could be routed OAK-LAX-BWI and SAN-LAS-BWI timed so that they arrive in BWI around 6:00AM to 6:15AM. The reason they would be successful is the connection opportunities. BWI has originators in the morning betwean 6:50AM and 9:00AM to everywhere on the east coast. These flights usually don't have high load factors compared to flights later on in the morning. Customers originating in OAK, LAX, SAN and LAS could connect in BWI to MHT, PVD, BUF, ALB, ISP, BDL, CLE, CMH, SDF, ORF, RDU, JAX, TPA, MCO, PBI, FLL, RSW, BHM, even JAN! With this many city pairs I cannot believe the flights would not be successful. Look at western to eastern city pairs at Southwest.com and its next to impossible to get east after about 2:00PM.

My two cents on the subject.
Jeff
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15253
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):
Probably opering night owl flights isn't some thing they believe to be profitable.



Quoting Jeffinbwi (Reply 7):
Unlike our competitors we do not offer service that does not have a potential for profit.

Red eyes are much cheaper to operate since you're using free airplane time that doesn't have as much ownership cost tied to it as a daylight flight. So for a "low fare" carrier, they should essentially be standard practice. They can be profitable just like anything else.

Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 26):
The simple fact here is an airline that cares about their employees so they can be home in bed with their families at night

Uh huh....riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
exusair
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 12:15 am

RE: Why No Southwest Redeyes?

Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:42 pm

FlyDeltaJets:

My fastest turn time was a full 767-300 from touchdown to pushback :27mins 250 off 250 on. Did it not once, but several times. JAX-ATL.

Why does HP operate such a large complex at LAS at midnight? In addition to passenger boarding, they also move a lot of freight and mail eastbound which helps with their profit margins on these flights.