poh2
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Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:51 am

Ever since UA pulled out of Caracas years ago, the Star Alliance has a huge hole between the northern countries of South America (Colombia, Venezuela, etc.) and the United States. Currently, the only way to fly to any destination within the US on a Star Alliance carrier is via YYZ on Air Canada or via GRU on Varig, both of which are clearly not viable options.

For CCS, the Star Alliance airlines are: TAP Portugal, Lufthansa, Varig, and Air Canada. The one hole, IMO, is between CCS and the US. I find it hard to believe that United Airlines or US Airways can't open up some flights to CCS. Granted, they were both bankrupt and were trying to reduce costs, but is there any chance that we might see UA in CCS again in the future?

MIA-CCS has intense competition from AA, VH (Aeropostal) and S3 (Santa Barbara). But perhaps a CCS-IAD flight could work? Or maybe a MIA-CCS could work given the huge amount of connecting traffic that the Star Alliance could route via MIA?

I'd greatly appreciate your comments on this...

Thanks!
Patrick
"Life is too short to take everything seriously."
 
bullpitt
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:43 am

I think there are two problems with this route for US airways.

1) With their actual situation and the bad USA-Venezula relations do they want to risk being cought in the middle?

2) Do they have the aircraft availeable and will the route generate income in the short run? They can not afford to pull an aircraft from a profitable route to try and cover a route that wont guarantee them anything.

TMHO.
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kaitak744
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:15 am

Well, this is not the only hole in the network.

Flights with in Africa, India, and China are largely non-existant.
 
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yowza
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 2):
Flights with in Africa, India, and China are largely non-existant.

Indeed this is the bigger and more immediate concern. SA will be on board as of 01/04 and the Alliance is looking for a Chinese partner and the ever lingering rumours of QR would add great capacity into India. QR has a ridiculous number of flights in India ex DOH.

YOWza
 
TonyBurr
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:22 am

Another big hole is the huge continent of Australia! You can get there on Star Allliance but you can not get from one end to the other or within the conutry on STAR since ANSET closed down!
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:44 am

If we're talking holes in alliances....let's talk One World and Skyteam. Star Alliance is much, much better covered worldwide than either of those.
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luisde8cd
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:20 pm

Quoting Poh2 (Thread starter):
MIA-CCS has intense competition from AA, VH (Aeropostal) and S3 (Santa Barbara). But perhaps a CCS-IAD flight could work? Or maybe a MIA-CCS could work given the huge amount of connecting traffic that the Star Alliance could route via MIA?

Hola Poh2! I think UA ain't coming back to CCS from MIA. UA's MIA ops have been drastically reduced in favor of Ted flying into FLL. I believe the best way would be for UA to come back with A320 daily service from IAD. IAD can offer good connections to lots of US destinations, just like ATL with DL.

Another remote possibility would be US Airways from FLL. I think they have a focus city in FLL. With a CCS-FLL flight, US could easily fill the plane with O&D and connecting pax.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
bohica
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:10 pm

Due to the heated political situation between the USA and Venezuela, I don't see UA or US going to CCS anytime soon. In fact Venezuela is trying to kick out CO and DL and reduce AA flying for political reasons.
 
N1120A
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:50 pm

Quoting Bohica (Reply 7):
In fact Venezuela is trying to kick out CO and DL and reduce AA flying for political reasons.

That could be changed very easily. The reason for this dispute is an ill-founded reduction of Venezuela's status from Cat. 1 to Cat. 2 in order to squeeze the Chavez government.
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as739x
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:16 pm

Venezuela just booted ALL american carriers out of there. How does the US carriers have any way to fill the hole? FedEx isn't even allowed into Venezuela now.

ASLAX
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bhxdtw
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 9):
Venezuela just booted ALL american carriers out of there. How does the US carriers have any way to fill the hole? FedEx isn't even allowed into Venezuela now.

whats going on in Venezuala ?!?!

why are they kickin out America ?! Is there any other airlines that fly from CCS to the USA ?
 
poh2
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 9):
Venezuela just booted ALL american carriers out of there. How does the US carriers have any way to fill the hole? FedEx isn't even allowed into Venezuela now.



Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 10):
whats going on in Venezuala ?!?!

why are they kickin out America ?! Is there any other airlines that fly from CCS to the USA ?

The Venezuelan government is trying to get our FAA rating up to Category 1 from Category 2. To put pressure on the USA, it decided to restrict the number of flights into Venezuela by American carriers. So, if the issue is not resolved by March 30th, Delta and Continental will not be allowed to fly to Venezuela anymore and AA's flights will be reduced (only flights from MIA will be allowed; JFK and SJU will be cancelled).

However, let's pretend for a second that this issue is resolved. Do you think that UA or US may start flights to CCS at some point?
"Life is too short to take everything seriously."
 
CptGermany
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 10):
whats going on in Venezuala ?!?!

why are they kickin out America ?!

As far as I know, Venezuela has a socialist, very far left wing, regime. Therefore, they don't like the US very much. This is the basis for all the dispute that has been going on lately, IMO.

Check out this link for further information:

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/us-venezuela.htm
 
TransAmerican
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting CptGermany (Reply 12):
As far as I know, Venezuela has a socialist, very far left wing, regime. Therefore, they don't like the US very much. This is the basis for all the dispute that has been going on lately, IMO.

That's a very simplistic, and frankly very naive summary of the situation in Venezuela. I don't mean to sound confrontational, nor do I wish to start any arguments, but with the greatest of respect, I'd suggest that you do a bit more homework about the current situation before commenting on something that you clearly don't understand.

Years ago, the US quite justifiably downgraded Venezuela's rating to Cat 2. There were clear and obvious reasons for this, given the crumbling air traffic infrastructure within the country, and it was stated that any possible future restoration of Cat 1 status would be conditional upon Venezuela investing significant amounts of resources and time to make the necessary improvements. Venezuela has since met and exceeded the conditions bestowed upon it by the US, including the introduction of a formalised air traffic administration body, and has subsequently petitioned the US to restore Cat 1 status through open and diplomatic channels. These petitions fell upon deaf ears.

Frustrated that US carriers were continuing to enjoy the freedoms of operations to Venezuela that Venezuelan carriers were denied by the US, and with there being no recognition by the US that they even owed Venezuela an assessment of its status (never mind an automatic reinstatement of Category 1 status), Venezuela took extreme, but not unreasonable, action to force America's hand.

However, this isn't blackmail, it isn't holding a gun to America's head to force them to do something unreasonable. Quite the opposite, it is simply doing the same to America that the US has done to Venezuela. Venezuela has met and exceeded the terms set down by America, and for all intents and purposes is a Cat 1 country, being denied Cat 1 privileges. Therefore, Venezuela has threatened to deny the privileges of operations to its country by US carriers, until US authorities meet their own obligations. If Venezuela has indeed met Category 1 status, then it seems to me that the US would only be withholding the official reinstatement of that status to Venezuela on political grounds, and that certainly seems to be the case so far.

Venezuela has extended its deadline by one month to allow the US to rectify the situation. However, it is rather telling of America's stance in this situation that they have issued no public statements condemning Venezuela's actions as inappropriate or confrontational. Indeed, the US has remained completely tight lipped in public about the situation, and only acknowledged it through diplomatic channels. This suggests to me that US authorities are well aware that they're not exactly in the right over this issue.

It's true that the US and Venezuela do not enjoy the best of friendships, but to reduce this whole situation to, and blaming it all upon, the actions of the latter's government is extremely naive. President Chavez is hardly my favourite person - although I think very little of President Bush as well - but Chavez's actions in this situation cannot be judged as so unreasonable when you make even a token effort to understand the background.
Dream like you'll live forever. Live like you'll die today.
 
777fan
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 2):
Flights with in Africa, India, and China are largely non-existant.

China?! Are you serious?! It's well served from the US (by SA)">UA) as much as the FAA has permitted. I believe that Air China is also on the list of SA members in waiting. Talk to the CCCP government about opening up to foreign carriers; they ultimately control who's in and who's out.

You'd be hard pressed to find an African carrier in any airline alliance. Many of the most populated countries/cities don't meet FAA standards and host airlines with shady safety and maintenance practices.
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ckfred
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:22 am

If you want to talk about holes, how about OneWorld's hole in Canada, ever since AC bought CP.
 
Doona
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 14):
You'd be hard pressed to find an African carrier in any airline alliance.

Isn't SAA in the process of entering Star Alliance?

Cheers
Mats
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CptGermany
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:52 am

Quoting TransAmerican (Reply 13):
It's true that the US and Venezuela do not enjoy the best of friendships, but to reduce this whole situation to, and blaming it all upon, the actions of the latter's government is extremely naive. President Chavez is hardly my favourite person - although I think very little of President Bush as well - but Chavez's actions in this situation cannot be judged as so unreasonable when you make even a token effort to understand the background.

Obviously, you seem to have a very good knowledge of the current situation between Venezuela and USA. Furthermore, obviously I have a rather superficial impression of what is going on there.

All I know is that Chavez is a socialist and Bush is a conservative republican. I am certain that you agree with me if I state that the relationship between the two is not happy due to their political differences, and subsequently the relations between the two countries suffers. This overall attitude the two countries/governments have towards each other doesn't foster an improvement of the airline connections between Venezuela and the US.

That is basically what I wanted to say in order to attempt to answer BHXDTW's question. It was a "simplistic" answer to a simplistic question. Besides, I did not blame just one side, the Venezuelian government, I merely just mentioned one side.
 
IL96M
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting Poh2 (Thread starter):
the Star Alliance has a huge hole

Well, if you want to talk "Holes", how about the fact that there is exactly ONE flight between NYC (any airport) and LON (any airport), which is UA?

Talk about a gap in the market... any idea when this will improve?
 
Cure
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:58 am

Hey guys...I keep reading about USA called America, but Venezuela is part of America too...: very naive observation, but couldn't resist pointing it out.

Regards,

V
 
pgtravel
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Poh2 (Thread starter):
Ever since UA pulled out of Caracas years ago, the Star Alliance has a huge hole between the northern countries of South America (Colombia, Venezuela, etc.) and the United States. Currently, the only way to fly to any destination within the US on a Star Alliance carrier is via YYZ on Air Canada or via GRU on Varig, both of which are clearly not viable options.

Well, with UA's new codeshare with TACA, maybe they'll move in to Star Alliance one day and fill the void to some extent.
 
PDPsol
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Cure (Reply 19):
Hey guys...I keep reading about USA called America, but Venezuela is part of America too...: very naive observation, but couldn't resist pointing it out.

For unknown reasons, many individuals in the US and even in western Europe refer to the US as "America", eventhough the term actually refers to the entire western Hemisphere, from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego [North + Central + South America + Caribbean].

So oftentimes, one needs to ask whether one is referring to the entire Hemisphere or only to the US when applying the term, "America".

Getting back to the post, one cannot imagine SA)">UA or US serving the main northern destinations in South America, BOG, CCS, UIO anytime soon.

For obvious reasons, SA)">UA is focused on IAD and ORD services to GRU, GIG and EZE in the southern cone of the continet. Perhaps something may be added from their hubs in LAX, SFO and DEN, although that is unlikely as well.

US only serves destinations in the Caribbean, Central American and Mexico markets. They do not have ANY destinations in South America.

Also, RG, with all its associated problems and soap opera drama, is not the best partner for Star in the region.

There were some rumors AR may at some point over the next five years join Star Alliance, but nothing is currently in the works. AR's primary shareholder, Marsans SA of Spain, is a very small investor in JK [SK owns over 95%], which is a Star member.

JJ, after its fabulous IPO on the NYSE last week, is flush with cash and focused on consolidating its regional and international growth. It is more likely to join oneWorld.

AV has historical ties with DL, SkyTeam.

Following its full privatization, MX has a new owner and will most likely initiate a strategic review of alliance alternatives.

TA is not an alliance member.

CM is a member of the SkyTeam Associate Program. I still have no idea how the terms of this "Associate" membership differ from those of other members; rather bizarre.
 
MGA
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:29 am

TA´s new codeshare agreement with UA is the closest you´ll get as the missing link. Hopefully the codeshare will result eventually in membership into the alliance. Many of us have agreed that TA could fit very well into it.

MGA
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ZRH
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:29 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 14):
Talk to the CCCP government

CCCP??? I think this country does not exist anymore since many years. Do you mean Russia?
 
poh2
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Pgtravel (Reply 20):
Well, with UA's new codeshare with TACA, maybe they'll move in to Star Alliance one day and fill the void to some extent.

You're right...I forgot about that. TACA could become a valuable addition to the Star Alliance, especially since MX left the alliance last year.
"Life is too short to take everything seriously."
 
TransAmerican
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 21):
For unknown reasons, many individuals in the US and even in western Europe refer to the US as "America", eventhough the term actually refers to the entire western Hemisphere, from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego [North + Central + South America + Caribbean].

So oftentimes, one needs to ask whether one is referring to the entire Hemisphere or only to the US when applying the term, "America".

I sense we're going off topic once more, but anyway...

Considering the country itself refers to itself as "America", I hardly think it's so ridiculous for other global citizens to do the same. The educated classes tend to refer to what you call "America" as "The Americas" (describing the traditional continents of North and South America), while "America" is and always has been an acceptable contraction of "the United States of America".

Canadians would not describe themselves as "American", but they may refer to living in North America. Colombians would certainly not describe themselves as American, but might well identify with being called Latin American. The fact that these regional distinctions exist is proof enough that, anecdotally and factually, the concept of being "American" is restricted to the United States itself, and therefore the use of the term "America" to describe the US is perfectly accurate.
Dream like you'll live forever. Live like you'll die today.
 
CPH757
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 14):
China?! Are you serious?! It's well served from the US (by SA)">UA) as much as the FAA has permitted. I believe that Air China is also on the list of SA members in waiting. Talk to the CCCP government about opening up to foreign carriers; they ultimately control who's in and who's out.

But you forget that there are 1.3 billion people living there, and they do indeed live other places than Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou. Believe me, there is a lot of air traffic going on inside China!! All three alliances could use a member with intensive Chinese domestic services.

Air China and China Southern would probably be the first one to join an alliance (*A and ST respectively).
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AussieItaliano
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting Cure (Reply 19):
Hey guys...I keep reading about USA called America, but Venezuela is part of America too...: very naive observation, but couldn't resist pointing it out.

I completely agree. The more accurate term should be the US.

Quoting TransAmerican (Reply 25):
"America" is and always has been an acceptable contraction of "the United States of America".

The only reason why it ever has been so is because the US was the first territory to rebel against colonial powers. Therefore, they believed themselves to be the first American nation and usurped the name "America" which more correctly refers to two continents. This usurpation became accepted by Western Europe because they as well recognized the US to be the only American nation at the time.

However, the US is not the first American nation, as Native American nations had existed for years before colonial powers arrived.
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CHI787ORD
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:59 am

Star isn't that bad in India. SQ and TG cover as much of India as I think is needed. Besides, I do believe AI or 9W is planning on joining Star soon?
 
777fan
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 23):
CCCP??? I think this country does not exist anymore since many years. Do you mean Russia?

Hehe, nope: I meant "Conniving Communist Chinese Protectionists!" (a term introduced to me by my cousin who claims its en vogue in his office). See below for reference.

Quoting CPH757 (Reply 26):
and they do indeed live other places than Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou

No kidding but again US carriers can't just pick up and fly there when they fell like it! UA and AA are in the midst of a bidding war over N/S flights to/from ORD and a slew of Chinese cities but are limited in the number of slots made available by the Chinese government as they seek to look out for the best interests of their carriers.
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kaitak744
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting IL96M (Reply 18):
Well, if you want to talk "Holes", how about the fact that there is exactly ONE flight between NYC (any airport) and LON (any airport), which is UA?

Well, doesn't BMI have Gatswick-Newwark service?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Gaping Hole In Star Alliance Network!

Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:11 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 30):
Well, doesn't BMI have Gatswick-Newwark service?

I believe they don't even operated out of LGW. BD's main bases are MAN and LHR and obviously, due to the uncompetitive and IMO senseless Bermuda II treaty, they can't do any Star Alliance flights on an LHR to NYC routing, and the cost of setting up a small base in LGW might not justify things, especially in BD's bad position after their recent blunders, which started most prominently with them wetleasing a 757 for replacing their A330 on the highly successful MAN-IAD flight, which in the end got axed because of this downsizing.