avi8tir
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Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:12 am

Just seems odd that these are the only Rolls engines in the fleet. Whyd they choose them over PW or GE?
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Alitalia744
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:17 am

they threw the letters P, R and G into a hat and picked one. R came out so they went with RR.

seriously tho, I don't know, I wished they had gone with GE90s.
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manzoori
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:25 am

Because they felt they were the best engine? Because they got a good deal? All of the above?

These may be the only RR engines in the current fleet but they have used them before... RB211-22Bs on their Tristars...

Rez
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boeing767-300
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:24 am

God only knows... Wasn't it a SA)">DL 777 that was being demonstrated to South African Airways that had an engine problem on T/O.

Although the fact SA went A340 instead of 777 the above incident would certainly not have helped ............
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:42 am

There may have been some political overtones as well but DL has been a longstanding Rolls customer. The Trent is a very reliable engine.

Incidentally, AA maintains DL's Trents for them while DL maintains AA's PW2037s on the ex-TW 757s.
 
MarkATL
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:14 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
they threw the letters P, R and G into a hat and picked one. R came out so they went with RR.

How could you say such a thing!! That is an outragous statement..... Everyone knows it was a dart board.
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1337Delta764
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
There may have been some political overtones as well but DL has been a longstanding Rolls customer.

So why did Delta choose Pratts for their 757s? Also, why did Delta choose GE for their newer 767-300ERs? RR was an option for both.

If Delta ordered the 787, I would probably expect GEnx engines, as GE is helping Delta restructure.
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flydreamliner
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:50 am

AA has a history of buying RR, CO of buying GE (except their 757s), NW buys PW, DL i'm convinced buys what's cheap at the time. I wish they'd have bought GE90s, not that there is anything wrong with Trent, but GE90 is the golden standard of jet engines.

GE has been using the fact they also run a gigantic commerical bank to get customers. Anyone who GE's capital division works out financial stuff for (which seems to be nearly everyone, the way airlines are doing) ends up buying GE engines. Surprise surprise.
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Jetfixr757
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:56 am

The Rolls 757 will out perform the other 757's. The RB211-535 has alot of air to "spare" and end up giveing better performance and economy than the 2037, my fleet has a mixed bag of 2040's and 211's, all the pilots tell me the 211's out climb the 2040's, not knocking the 2040, it is a great engine as well.
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N1120A
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):

So why did Delta choose Pratts for their 757s? Also, why did Delta choose GE for their newer 767-300ERs? RR was an option for both.

At the time they ordered the 757, DL was as die hard a PW customer as NW or UA. It was fall out over this and the PW4000 engines on their initial 762s that caused them to switch over to GE for the rest of their 767s. As for the reason they chose the Trent for their small T7 fleet, at the time they purchased them, the Trent was considered the best engine for 656,000 pound T7s (DL took their planes in 1999, the GE-90-94 debuted in 2000 with AF)
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dalb777
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:59 am

I know DL has 777s still on order, probably with RR engines. What is the possibility of DL pulling a BA, except the opposite, and order GE engines if/when they order their next batch of 777s? Maybe GE can help DL get out of BK?
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N1120A
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting Dalb777 (Reply 10):
I know DL has 777s still on order, probably with RR engines. What is the possibility of DL pulling a BA, except the opposite, and order GE engines if/when they order their next batch of 777s? Maybe GE can help DL get out of BK?

Based on DL's structure, 777s really aren't ideal for them. A big 788/789 fleet would suit them much better.
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DL763DFW
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:04 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
It was fall out over this and the PW4000 engines on their initial 762s that caused them to switch over to GE for the rest of their 767s

Maybe you're referring to an initial order that was then changed, but DL 762s are all GE powered. In fact, the only PW powered 767s I know of are some of the 763ERs.

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PM
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:38 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
There may have been some political overtones as well but DL has been a longstanding Rolls customer. The Trent is a very reliable engine.

"Political overtones"???

What's interesting is that DL opted for RR before they made a final decision to buy 777s. I have a yellowing clipping (somewhere...) where they announced that if they decided to buy 777s they'd definitely have Trents. It was (and still is) the only example I can think of where an airline selected an engine before ordering the plane. Curious.

Quoting Jetfixr757 (Reply 8):
The Rolls 757 will out perform the other 757's.

In some ways. The PW2000 is actually more fuel efficient.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
It was fall out over this and the PW4000 engines on their initial 762s that caused them to switch over to GE for the rest of their 767s.

I don't know where you got that from.  confused  Delta's first order for 767s was for 15 x -200s with GE. For the next ten years they ordered nothing but GE on four different orders for batches of 767-300s. They ordered PW on the 767-300ERs ordered between 1988 and 1996 but switched (back) to GE in 1997.

Quoting DL763DFW (Reply 12):
the only PW powered 767s I know of are some of the 763ERs.

...and four of their 767-300s
 
kappel
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:53 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 13):
In some ways. The PW2000 is actually more fuel efficient.

Indeed, but IIRC the RB211's have a longer "on wing" time, no?

The Trents are the lightest 777 engines, which of course helps with fuel efficiency. That may have also helped. There is a reason that the Trents are the best sold engines on the 772 and 773 (not counting the 77W of course)
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:01 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 14):
Indeed, but IIRC the RB211's have a longer "on wing" time, no?

Indeed, much better. That must go a long way to explain why RR got 77% of the customers on the 757 programme.
 
captaink
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
I wished they had gone with GE90s.

Why? The RR's are a great choice of jet engine..

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 7):
but GE90 is the golden standard of jet engines.

Since when....?
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TinkerBelle
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:34 am

Per DL's website their 777ER's have 2 Rolls Royce Trent 892 which produce 92,000 lbs (41,700 kg) of thrust. Per Boeing website the same engines are supposed to produce 93,700 Ibs of thrust. Why the difference????

On a side note, someone here on A.net posted a picture of DL's brochure showing that their 777's have Pratt & Whitney 4090 engines.  biggrin 
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Alitalia744
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:07 am

I'd expect any add-on orders for the 777 as well as any future 787 orders to be delivered with GE engines.

just a hunch
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PM
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 18):
I'd expect any add-on orders for the 777 as well as any future 787 orders to be delivered with GE engines.

If DL buy more 777-200ERs (which looks highly unlikely) it would be perverse for them to create a mixed RR/GE fleet which would still not be terribly big. But if DL ever buy 777-300ERs then, yes, GE would have an advantage...  Wink

DL's ties to CO, AF and KL (all of which have GE on their 777s) might also be a factor.

The 787? Hard to say. DL chose RR for their 777s over PW and GE for a reason. (Whatever it was.) And what if the mooted DL/NW merger happens? Wouldn't it make sense to stick with a single fleet of RR 787s?

Of course, if GE write DL a cheque to help them out of Chapter 11, anything is possible.

Anyway, I think what you really meant to say was...

"I'd hope any add-on orders for the 777 as well as any future 787 orders would be delivered with GE engines."  Wink
 
HS748
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:31 am

It's obvious, British is ALWAYS best  Big grin
 
cpairDC10
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:57 am

Dont start another trans atlantic word war here !!
 
Rj111
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 7):
not that there is anything wrong with Trent, but GE90 is the golden standard of jet engines.

 laughing 

That aside, I belive the RR is the most efficient engine for the 777 on medium-long range routes. Whereas the GE takes over on the very far routes. One of the reasons the GE was selected for 772LR/773ER.

So perhaps DL found that RR hit the right 'sweet spots' for their network.
 
777236ER
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 22):
One of the reasons the GE was selected for 772LR/773ER.

The reason the GE90 was chosen over the test Trent 8104 was because Boeing were looking for a risk-sharing partner and RR weren't willing to do that. This really didn't leave Boeing with much choice.
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kappel
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
and RR weren't willing to do that.

IIRC they were very interested. But GE outbid them, so they got the contract. I'm sure PM can verify that.
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Rj111
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:12 am

That fact that RR weren't going to have an engine in the thrust capacity Boeing required until several years after GE, can't have helped their cause either.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 3):
God only knows.

hopefully more than god knows  Smile
 
777236ER
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 24):

IIRC they were very interested. But GE outbid them, so they got the contract.

Which doesn't quite make sense. GE got a lucrative (and damaging to Boeing) exclusivity deal.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 25):
That fact that RR weren't going to have an engine in the thrust capacity Boeing required until several years after GE, can't have helped their cause either.

The Trent 8104 would have had a 104klbf and 114klbf rating and was run at 117klbf.
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lightsaber
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting PM (Reply 13):
The PW2000 is actually more fuel efficient.

 checkmark  But its entry into service had such poor dispatch reliability...  Sad There was no way to make up the fuel savings. The latest upgrade kits really help the pw2040, but the RR still has almost twice the time on wing!  bigthumbsup  sigh...

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 22):
That aside, I belive the RR is the most efficient engine for the 777 on medium-long range routes.

In general, the RR wins < 4000nm. Above 4000nm, the GE-90 wins. But why buy a 777 for < 4000nm?!? Use 767's, A330's, heck even 757's and the new 73GER to fragment your market.

Oh, DL didn't pick Pratt due to the fuel economy miss on the pw4000 (when it was new, later upgrade kits brought it back up to promise, but DL remembered...). They were right, the pw4098...  Sad A 4% miss on promised fuel burn!  hissyfit  Basically, Pratt promised to match the GE-90 and really missed...  Sad

Lightsaber
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Geo772
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 7):
not that there is anything wrong with Trent, but GE90 is the golden standard of jet engines.

What a strange remark, the GE90 is a dog of an engine compared with the Trent 800.
My favourite fact about the GE90 and the Trent is that the GE90 weighs nearly 2 tonnes more each compared with the Trent.
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worldtraveler
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:46 am

The chance is probably more likely that any future orders of the 777 will be of the -200LR or the 300ER. Since the 787 is growing into 777 territory, it is likely than future orders will be converted to 787s or the heaviest 777s.
 
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 24):
I'm sure PM can verify that.

I wish I could. I don't even know if RR did 'bid'. From what I remember they were happy to take their chances in the market - as they were on the A340 and elsewhere. It was GE on the 777 and PW on the A340 demanding exclusivity. But did RR have the financial muscle or the appetite to bid for a stake of the 777W? I simply don't know. What I do know is that it would have been an ... "interesting" situation for Boeing to offer only a British engine (i.e. neither GE nor PW) on their flagship 777...

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 25):
That fact that RR weren't going to have an engine in the thrust capacity Boeing required until several years after GE, can't have helped their cause either.

Is that really true? I'm not challenging you, just wondering. Why would it have taken RR until 2006/2007 or whatever to build a Trent that could do 115,000lbs?
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 29):
What a strange remark, the GE90 is a dog of an engine compared with the Trent 800.
My favourite fact about the GE90 and the Trent is that the GE90 weighs nearly 2 tonnes more each compared with the Trent.

Dog in what sense? Weight? it's made up in fuel economy...

learn your facts.
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PM
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 32):
Dog in what sense? Weight? it's made up in fuel economy... learn your facts.

I don't subscribe to the "dog" comment but I am inclined to trust airlines (who pay real $$$ for these things) rather than A.Net armchair experts. Where there is competition, the RR Trent has outsold the GE90 on the 777 - and that's with the leverage GE has been able to exercise by having exclusivity on the 772LR and 773ER. I'm not an engineer and I don't work for an airline. All I can do is look at the numbers. They suggest that the Trent is the more popular engine.
 
Geo772
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 32):
Dog in what sense? Weight? it's made up in fuel economy...

It's a pain to work on. Access is poor on many components, has had a poor reliability compared with the Trent, not necessarily for in flight shutdowns, but in terms of the number of changes due to problems.
The GE90 is a technology showcase and lessons learnt from it will certainly help the GEnx but the Trent was based on a mature engine design and has had very few problems in service as a result.

Quoting PM (Reply 31):
Is that really true? I'm not challenging you, just wondering. Why would it have taken RR until 2006/2007 or whatever to build a Trent that could do 115,000lbs?

RR had a version of the Trent running at those sort of power levels about 5 years ago. But then GE got the contract and there was no need to develop the engine further.
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 34):
RR had a version of the Trent running at those sort of power levels about 5 years ago. But then GE got the contract and there was no need to develop the engine further.

Quite. So it wasn't that they couldn't do such an engine as that there was no incentive to do so?
 
777236ER
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting PM (Reply 35):
So it wasn't that they couldn't do such an engine as that there was no incentive to do so?

The engine was made and ran at the thrust levels Boeing wanted. While the upwards limit was perhaps slightly lower than the GE90, had Boeing not wanted a risk-sharing partner, it's likely the 77Ws would be offered with both Trents and GE90s.
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advancedkid
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:54 am

Some important points are missed here when choosing
a power plant. a
Besides, fuel burn and engine grossweight, there is the
TBO (time before overhaul) as well as actual overhaul
and spares cost. These numbers in most cases also vary
depending on ranges & # of cycles/day an a/c is used.
This would explain why Delta has both GE/PW on their 767's.

At he end of the day an airline may pick what suits them
best with the numbers or pick an engine that they seem
to like most. UA will always order P&W. LH, AF, KL and AZ
always have GE. You could almost bet that BA would always
prefer RR (with a little exception some 777 GE's) and same for
Qantas (with a little exception 744ER's GE).

Best regards,

Advanced
 
boeing767-300
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:01 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 27):
Quoting Kappel (Reply 24):

IIRC they were very interested. But GE outbid them, so they got the contract.

Which doesn't quite make sense. GE got a lucrative (and damaging to Boeing) exclusivity deal.

Very Damaging I'm sure. We will disregard your 777-236 Nickname and remember the exclusive RR stalwarts that have jumped on the GE90-115 Bandwagon namely Emirates 60+ 777s + 45 A380(GE?PW GP7200), Cathay Pacific who opted for a GE powered (16 77W)long range twin over 4 Engined RR for long haul. Then you may have seen a thread on here regarding BA's interest in 10 GE powered 773's and of course P&W stalwart and large (58) 777 RR powered fleet has gone GE (19 77Ws) Yes I agree it has really hurt Boeing  banghead 

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 29):
What a strange remark, the GE90 is a dog of an engine compared with the Trent 800.
My favourite fact about the GE90 and the Trent is that the GE90 weighs nearly 2 tonnes more each compared with the Trent.

You as an Aircraft Engineer should know that the GE90 was a clean sheet design so it could be significantly grown in thrust as GE felt wasn't worth stretching the CF6 any further.

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 34):
It's a pain to work on. Access is poor on many components, has had a poor reliability compared with the Trent, not necessarily for in flight shutdowns, but in terms of the number of changes due to problems.
The GE90 is a technology showcase and lessons learnt from it will certainly help the GEnx but the Trent was based on a mature engine design and has had very few problems in service as a result.

As mentioned above you will always have teething problems especially with a brand new design. GE certainly had its fair share of teething problems with the early GE90's but then the Trent has had more of its fair share of problems with the Trent. The fact you can't ignore is that the biggest most powerful and fuel efficient engine is the GE90-115B and given the new frontiers its performing in and the impeccable reliability and fuel efficiency is simply staggering. See A345/6 versus 77W/LR 2005 for what the market thinks. If you want a dog of an engine look no further than the Trent 500 (Fuel efficiency and weight!!!) and the market has dictated that (Airbus stalwarts VS LH IB excluded... the others have abandoned an gone GE/77X)  goodvibes 

Geo772... Get ready for BA77W with 115B's and the initial batch is for ten.....  bigthumbsup 
 
Rj111
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:45 pm

Good morning PM and 777236ER.

Now, i'd never say anything on this website unless i was adament it was true. And i was pretty certain that the comments i have mentioned earlier were true, thanks to an prior topic on this very site.

"For the same reason the GE90 lost most early (lower MTOW) 777 business to the PW4000 & Trent800 (i.e., the higher weight brought on by its fortified core)... the engine was built for VERY-high end thrust growth, despite GE's initial reluctance to offer said growth wide-scale.

RR was to be the original 777X provider, but Boeing wanted more than the 104,000lbs thrust initially proposed. Only GE90 was ready to meet those specifications within the time frame that Boeing desired; and they only would do it should an exclusivity contract by aircraft weight be signed."


Source... http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/76535

However, in response to your earlier replies i have researched the topic further and discovered alternative sources confirming your assertions. Thus i will happily abide by them.

"Originally designed for the 777-200LR and 777-300ER (both part of the 777X project), this engine comes in two thrust ratings, 104,000 and 114,000 lbf (463 to 507 kN), and has been tested up to 117,000 lbf (520 kN).

Rolls-Royce offered the 8104 to Boeing earlier than other manufacturers. Boeing had a requirement that the participating engine developer assume a risk-sharing role on the overall 777X project. Rolls-Royce was unwilling to do so, and thus Boeing chose advanced developments of the GE90, the GE90-110B and GE90-115B. This relegated the 8104 to the role of demonstrator engine. It featured swept-back fan blades and a host of new technologies such as contra-rotating spools."


Source... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Trent

Quoting PM (Reply 31):
Is that really true? I'm not challenging you, just wondering. Why would it have taken RR until 2006/2007 or whatever to build a Trent that could do 115,000lbs?

I was under the impression that, as the GE90 - and more importantly, it's core - was specifically designed for the higher end MTOW of the 777's market. That the GE90 was more readily capable of producing higher thrust than the Trent 8104 - which would have required a larger redesign. Not a completely unintelligent thing to realise, i'll think you'll agree. And i would never suggest it would have taken till 2006. Moreso roughly 2 years after the GE90-115.

Anyway, as i was born on the 15/03/85 i think you'll accept that today is probably a nice day to let me off such (necessary) pendatisism. Big grin
 
N1120A
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:36 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 36):
The engine was made and ran at the thrust levels Boeing wanted. While the upwards limit was perhaps slightly lower than the GE90, had Boeing not wanted a risk-sharing partner, it's likely the 77Ws would be offered with both Trents and GE90s.

The Trent would have had to have been thoroughly reworked in order to get the thrust levels needed for a 775,000 pound 77W. Even still, nothing could guarantee that the Trent wouldn't suffer the same fate the PW4098 did when it tried to scale up from design proportions. The GE-90 is crap on the 772A for the same reason it was perfect for the Longer Range 777s, it is massive and can easily sustain 127,500 pounds of thrust. AA was offered a 777-250 of sorts with something along the lines of 8500nm range with 104,000 pound Trent power but passed on it.
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:13 pm

Quoting ADVANCEDKID (Reply 37):
UA will always order P&W. LH, AF, KL and AZ
always have GE. You could almost bet that BA would always
prefer RR (with a little exception some 777 GE's) and same for
Qantas (with a little exception 744ER's GE).

There was a time when that was more or less true but in many cases those days are long gone.

UA/PW : When UA come to replace their 747s, 767s and 777s they'll have a bit of job finding anything with PW engines on it to buy.
LH/GE : The last three widebodies LH have ordered (A340, A380, A330) are all RR-powered. OK, they had no choice on the A340-600 but they certainly did on the A330. Indeed, with a large CF6 fleet on their 747s and A300s the GE engine might have been expected to be the favourite on the A330.
BA/RR : "Some [GE] 777s" were actually no fewer than 29 and I think RR would be foolish to assume that it couldn't happen again. If BA buy the 787 should we take an RR order for granted? I'm certainly not.
QF/RR : "With a little exception 744ER's GE" rather overlooks their GE-powered A330 fleet where there was certainly a very credible RR alternative. A less credible RR alternative was on the 767 had QF really been committed to RR but they still chose GE. I don't see QF as being tied to RR in any shape or form.

I grant you that AF, KL and probably AZ are still pretty loyal to GE but look how LH dropped GE or, for that matter, how SQ dropped PW. Things can change quite quickly.

Put it this way: it would be a reckless engine manufacturer who took airline customer loyalty for granted.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 39):
Anyway, as i was born on the 15/03/85 i think you'll accept that today is probably a nice day to let me off such (necessary) pendatisism.

Nice post - thanks! ("Pedantisism". Great word!) And happy birthday!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:16 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 41):
UA/PW : When UA come to replace their 747s, 767s and 777s they'll have a bit of job finding anything with PW engines on it to buy.

Eventually, they'll have to kiss PW goodbye. The only new aircraft that will have a PW option is the A380 and the GP7200, and even then it's just 50% PW because it's a joint project with GE and the likelyhood of them getting the A380 is close to zero.

Quoting PM (Reply 41):
LH/GE : The last three widebodies LH have ordered (A340, A380, A330) are all RR-powered. OK, they had no choice on the A340-600 but they certainly did on the A330. Indeed, with a large CF6 fleet on their 747s and A300s the GE engine might have been expected to be the favourite on the A330.

I believe the Trent 772 is the highest thrust engine available for the A330, which can make a difference in many flights. LH has never really been interested in commonality (a look at their A32x fleet, where they operate CFMs on their A319s and A320s and the IAE V2500 on the A321 is a good example). With Lufthansa Technik on their side, commonality isn't a big issue for LH. The same for DE, which used to operate 757-200s with Pratts, but then phased those out in favour of the 757-300 with Rollers. Also, DE is operating a PW powered 767 fleet, but that won't be a problem for LH once the next widebody order comes, where they will inevitably include a few aircraft for DE.

Quoting PM (Reply 41):
BA/RR : "Some [GE] 777s" were actually no fewer than 29 and I think RR would be foolish to assume that it couldn't happen again. If BA buy the 787 should we take an RR order for granted? I'm certainly not.

If BA does eventually sort the pension issue and firms up the 777-300ER order, then they'll inevitably expand their GE90 powered fleet. I believe if there have been some Nationalistic issues influencing their aircraft order, I'd date to say that BA will have dropped that for good and goes for whatever will give them the advantage.
 
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:29 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 42):
I believe if there have been some Nationalistic issues influencing their aircraft order, I'd date to say that BA will have dropped that for good and goes for whatever will give them the advantage.

I'm not sure nationalism has ever played much of a role at BA - since they were privatised. They were very late to order any Airbuses and their preference for RR on several types is ambiguous.

Choosing RR for the 757 seems to have been a wise decision since 6 out of every 10 757s were eventually built with RR and three out of every four 757 customers chose RR.

Choosing RR for their 747s put them in a minority but, with the likes of Cathay and Qantas profitably flying the same combination, it hardly seems eccentric.

Only on the 767 might a "nationalistic" charge be made to stick but I suspect it had more to do with commonaility between the 747/767 fleets. In retrospect, they've ended up with a fleet of 767s that might have a poor resale value but that could as easily be a commercial misjudgement rather than the legacy of a "nationalistic" policy.

On balance, there's far more evidence against BA having a nationalistic acquisition policy than to support it.

Agreed. BA will make the best decisions for their business. Step forward the 773ER!
 
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:02 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 43):
I'm not sure nationalism has ever played much of a role at BA - since they were privatised. They were very late to order any Airbuses and their preference for RR on several types is ambiguous.

One of the more rational and objective posts in this thread. Well done.
"He is risen, as He said."
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 41):
I grant you that AF, KL and probably AZ are still pretty loyal to GE

AZ is extremely loyal to GE ever since the first D10s arrived in the early 70s, going as far as replacing (much like AF and KL) their early build 747s with newer GE engined versions.

Alitalia has since the late 70s shown a preference for GE engines and ever since the M11, Alitalia has stated it will also continue to operate Boeing widebodies only. We'll see next year, but all bets are on a GE powered 787-8 order.

Time will tell.
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting PM (Reply 41):
LH/GE : The last three widebodies LH have ordered (A340, A380, A330) are all RR-powered. OK, they had no choice on the A340-600 but they certainly did on the A330. Indeed, with a large CF6 fleet on their 747s and A300s the GE engine might have been expected to be the favourite on the A330.

LH engine choices are generally a crapshoot and are often based on purely commercial or technical reasons. The 3 engines on the 744A are all pretty evenly matched, with different advantages on different aircraft, so a commonality choice was made. The Trent powered A330s were purchased because of the failure of the 72,000 pound PW A330 engine. They chose CFM on the A320 and A319 because the European tax incentives for using lower emmissions engines outweigh the SFC hit taken over the V2500. The A321 V2500 order was because of Technik and I would venture to guess that on the larger frame, the SFC advantage helped a bit more.

Quoting PM (Reply 41):
UA/PW : When UA come to replace their 747s, 767s and 777s they'll have a bit of job finding anything with PW engines on it to buy.

Additionally, United has recieved a rather large chunk of its exit financing from GECAS (much like Continental did before) and will likely return the favor by taking future aircraft with GE power. One reversion to PW I could see is if the GTF hits big on the 737 replacement and UA goes for that.

Quoting PM (Reply 41):
BA/RR : "Some [GE] 777s" were actually no fewer than 29 and I think RR would be foolish to assume that it couldn't happen again. If BA buy the 787 should we take an RR order for granted? I'm certainly not.

The GE deal on the 777 was done because of the MX base deal. The Trent 800 is the superior engine for RR's needs and loyalty played a big role in their 895 order for their heaviest weight T7s. Additionally, it is looking like the Trent 1000 will slightly outperform the GEnx on the 787, so loyalty would be easy to keep there.

Quoting PM (Reply 41):
QF/RR : "With a little exception 744ER's GE" rather overlooks their GE-powered A330 fleet where there was certainly a very credible RR alternative. A less credible RR alternative was on the 767 had QF really been committed to RR but they still chose GE. I don't see QF as being tied to RR in any shape or form.

The RB211 is not offered on the 744ER, so QF took the engine they already had experience with (they have a few CF6 powered second hand 744As). The PW4062 is arguably superior for the application. The 767 thing was a no brainer. The otherwise brilliant RB211 is an absolute dog on the 767.

Quoting PM (Reply 41):
I grant you that AF, KL and probably AZ are still pretty loyal to GE but look how LH dropped GE or, for that matter, how SQ dropped PW.

LH isn't loyal to any engine maker and SQ dropped PW on the 777 because you can't buy a 777-200 over 648,000 pounds with PW power unless you want to take a huge SFC penalty.

Quoting PM (Reply 43):
Only on the 767 might a "nationalistic" charge be made to stick but I suspect it had more to do with commonaility between the 747/767 fleets. In retrospect, they've ended up with a fleet of 767s that might have a poor resale value but that could as easily be a commercial misjudgement rather than the legacy of a "nationalistic" policy.

The choice of the RB211 on the 767 had to have been a patriotic choice. AA is quite loyal to RR and has a massive RB211 powered 757 fleet yet is all GE on their 767s because of the cost factors. The fact that no one other than BA operates RB211 powered 767s, on an aircraft type that has sold nearly 1000 frames, has to tell you something.
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
LH engine choices are generally a crapshoot and are often based on purely commercial or technical reasons.

I have no idea what a "crapshoot" is but I would expect most airlines to choose engines for "commercial or technical reasons".

Interestingly, the first LH jets ever (five 707s) had RR. Thereafter, LH, like most operators, flew their 707s with PW.

The first CF6s LH ordered were on their DC-10s and A300s in the early '70s. They switched from PW on the 747 to GE in 1975. Thereafter, the CF6 appears to have been the inevitable choice on all widebodies until the A340 - where, of course, it isn't an option. But LH have or had CF6s on A300s, A310s, DC-10s, 747-200s and 747-400s. For a quarter of a century or so LH favoured the CF6.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
The Trent powered A330s were purchased because of the failure of the 72,000 pound PW A330 engine.

I can only read that to mean that LH would have preferred the PW engine on the A330. I'm mystified. LH haven't ordered a PW engine since 1983 and haven't ordered it on a widebody since 1970. Yes, they leased five PW-powered A332s but that's just what was available after the collapse of SR and SN. Surely LH chose the Trent on the A330 for "commercial or technical reasons", yes, but also because (a) they already had Trents in service or on order for A340s and A380s and (b) LH and RR have a joint MX business based on the Trent. Where does PW come into this? And why not the GE CF6-80?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
The Trent 800 is the superior engine for RR's needs and loyalty played a big role in their 895 order for their heaviest weight T7s.

Well, which is it? Did BA choose the Trent 895 because it is "superior" or because of "loyalty"? You're sending a mixed message.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
Additionally, it is looking like the Trent 1000 will slightly outperform the GEnx on the 787, so loyalty would be easy to keep there.

No. If the Trent 1000 "outperforms" the GEnx on the 787, THAT is why BA will (and should) choose it. Again, why is it somehow "loyal" to buy the better engine?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
LH isn't loyal to any engine maker

See above. For twenty-five years they've been a pretty steady customer for GE.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
SQ dropped PW on the 777 because you can't buy a 777-200 over 648,000 pounds with PW power unless you want to take a huge SFC penalty.

In other words, PW - hitherto a pretty loyal PW customer on the 747, A310 and even 757 - defected to RR on the 777 (which was my point) even though United, All Nippon and other "loyal" PW customers kept the faith and are still buying - and in some cases still receiving - PW-powered 777-200ERs.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
The fact that no one other than BA operates RB211 powered 767s, on an aircraft type that has sold nearly 1000 frames, has to tell you something.

Almost right. QF, of course, lease seven RR 767s from BA and China Eastern inherited (and still operate) three when they took over China Yunnan.
 
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):

LH engine choices are generally a crapshoot and are often based on purely commercial or technical reasons. The 3 engines on the 744A are all pretty evenly matched, with different advantages on different aircraft, so a commonality choice was made. The Trent powered A330s were purchased because of the failure of the 72,000 pound PW A330 engine.

Well, I think that for the 333s, the GE CF6 was the Trent 700's most likely alternative, a more likely choice than the PW4168 (73), and given LH's 744, M11 and 306 fleet, would have fit well in. The CF6 is also available with 72.000 lbs of thrust, look at QR and QF A333s.
But I guess the 700 came out ahead, due to their commonality with the 346, and soon 380, not to mention that it's a marvelous engine.

raggi
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RE: Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting Raggi (Reply 48):
not to mention that it's a marvelous engine.

...which has so far gained about 43% of the business on the A330 against 30% for PW and 25% for GE.

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