9VSPO
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Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:16 am

From this


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Photo © Michael O Bern



To this


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Photo © Steve Chuang



First time I have ever seen this so I wanted to post.

 Sad
 
p2philip
Posts: 90
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:22 am

Yes, sad indeed. This used to be one of the most beautiful special liveries IMO. Not a recent incident though...
 
9VSPO
Topic Author
Posts: 4187
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting P2philip (Reply 1):
Not a recent incident though...

I know but it's the first time I have noticed it.  Sad
 
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rg828
Posts: 568
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:24 pm

Yup, same feeling here crying . I thought that was one beautiful livery, I'm glad I got to see her at least once.

R.I.P.
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
Rotate
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:05 pm


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Photo © Yao Zhuolun



Still remember that day like yesterday. What a shame and a crash, which was so easy to avoid ....

R.I.P.

Robin
ABC
 
9VSPO
Topic Author
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:27 pm

Quoting Rotate (Reply 4):
which was so easy to avoid ....

What actually happened as I don't remember it?
 
Rotate
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:30 pm

I think they took off from a taxiway instead of the rwy. And on the taxiway there was some construction going on. weather and visibility that time was very poor ...

Robin
ABC
 
Rotate
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:47 pm

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...=9V-SPK&airline=Singapore+Airlines

Not exactly right what I said above ... , choosed the wrong rwy 5R instead of 5L. on 5R was a construction site ....

Robin
ABC
 
9VSPO
Topic Author
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:08 pm

Quoting Rotate (Reply 7):
choosed the wrong rwy 5R instead of 5L. on 5R was a construction site ....

Wow, incredible.
 
sulman
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:05 pm

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 8):
Wow, incredible.

Human.
It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
 
brianw999
Posts: 307
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:13 pm

Apparently Taipei has no ground radar, the vis was so bad that the tower couldn't see the 05 holds and therefore didn't know of the error.

I remember that day well. My wife and I were leaving Singapore the following day with Singapore Airlines bound for Heathrow. The weather was not good with a heavy tropical storm just before takeoff. Bear in mind that the exact reason for the previous days' events was not known at that time. Everyone was rather tense but the cabin crew showed incredible standards of professionalism in tending to our needs, despite the pressure and grief levels they must have been under. I would like to publicly express my thanks for the continuing high standards of Singapore Airlines. I believe them to be the best airline in the world and always try to use them on asian flights.
 
dc10tim
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:19 pm

It's amazing to see what changes to that view across T2 at MAN have taken place over the last six years too.

I miss the old BY colours and the News Of The World liveried 732 is also long gone  Sad

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:40 pm

Quoting Rotate (Reply 7):
Not exactly right what I said above ... , choosed the wrong rwy 5R instead of 5L. on 5R was a construction site ....

Robin

Not quite. Perhaps you might want to review this link. It was a little more than a simple choice.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20001031-0
Fly fast, live slow
 
studentflyer
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:53 pm

Indeed it is very sad. I had the privilege of flying that very aircraft about 4 months before it crashed. To be exact, I was flying it SYD-SIN as SQ220 on 28 Jun 2000. I think I was seated at row 38 IIRC. It is indeed very tragic. I will remember it fondly the day it crashed. It was on Wednesday morning of 1 Nov 2000 (the day after the tragedy) that I heard it in the morning news about a Singapore Airlines crashing at Taipei. The moment I saw it, I told myself.. this couldn't be the Tropical-liveried SQ 9V-SPK, as i saw rainbow colours on the still-buring wreckage.. and to my disbelief, it turned out to be that very same aircraft that I was in. (I am aware that SQ did have another temporary Tropical-liveried aircraft as 9V-SPL at that same time). What a tragic end to such a beautiful aircraft  Sad

My sympathy still goes to those who did not survive this tragic accident.
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:54 pm

Sad indeed. That was a lovely aircraft.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:18 pm

I was sitting in the departure lounge at BKK for an early morning flight to HAN ( a TG 734 delayed by the need for a tyre change ) and the news came on the TV in the gate lounge - it was really frustrating because for about ten minutes they did not actually mention which airline it was , just that a 747 from "an airline with a hitherto excellent safety record" had crashed at TPE - when they finally said which airline it was almost a relief . IIRC the a/c was fortunately only lightly loaded otherwise the toll would probably have been much higher
 
noelg
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:51 pm

I was on the National Express heading down to Heathrow on the 1st November for my flight to the US, the guy next to me was flying SQ to Australia and had the picture on the front page of the newspaper he was reading.

He was absolutely petrified that SQ were unsafe and was worried that his plane would do the same....
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Very Sad...

Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:04 pm

Hey, I have a question for PhilSquares,

Since you fly the 744, in the FMC you enter the airport etc. and the DEP RWY wich in that case was 05L, and on the main screen it would show RWY 05L,
but if the pilots taxied on to RWY 05R didnt they see that the pointer wasnt on the RWY 05L ?

Cheers Leo
Happiness is V1 in Lagos
 
sevenforeseven
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:06 am

SQ say that they will never have a special livery again.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting Sevenforeseven (Reply 18):
SQ say that they will never have a special livery again.

...apart from the compulsory "Star Alliance" paint schemes on two or three a/c in the SQ fleet .
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:21 am

I also recall their was an approaching Typhoon (SS scale 2) coming into northern Formosa off the South China Sea that day as well.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:41 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 17):
Since you fly the 744, in the FMC you enter the airport etc. and the DEP RWY wich in that case was 05L, and on the main screen it would show RWY 05L,
but if the pilots taxied on to RWY 05R didnt they see that the pointer wasnt on the RWY 05L ?

After flying in and out of TPE numerous times, on the ND, it's very hard to see. The runways are extremely close, plus the markings at that airport are extremely poor. To this day, things haven't changed much.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:32 am

5R is now closed if im correct? And TPE now only has RWY 5L and RWY 06
is the crash of that flight reason for the cloSure of RWY 05R ?

Cheers leo
Happiness is V1 in Lagos
 
sparkingwave
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 10):
I believe them to be the best airline in the world

I'm sorry to disagree, but SQ is NOT the best airline in the world. At one point or another, sooner or later, all airlines will fail you. And in that instant back then, this one failed miserably.

The airport also failed miserably, and if by now Taipei doesn't have ground radar, God help them should there ever be another accident due to bad visibility.

SparkingWave ~~~
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 23):
Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 10):
I believe them to be the best airline in the world

I'm sorry to disagree, but SQ is NOT the best airline in the world.

It comes down to personal preference and I'm sure he has reasons to believe that SQ is the best airline in the world just as you have reason to believe it's not.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
etfokker50
Posts: 87
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:13 am

The notes and links above state that Runway 05R was having construction work done, so as to turn it into a taxiway. So, as I understand, the crash was not the reason for the closure, and that decision was already taken earlier.
 
YYZYYT
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:15 am

.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 21):
After flying in and out of TPE numerous times, on the ND, it's very hard to see. The runways are extremely close, plus the markings at that airport are extremely poor. To this day, things haven't changed much.

IIRC, there have been conflicting reports prepared by the Singapore and Taiwanese authorities. One blaming the pilots and the other blaming the airport for poorly marked runways (guess which report came to which conclusion?).

While I make no comment as to the cause, I do recall that the signs indicating 5L and 5R are confusing, making it easay to mix the 2 runways up. There was also an issue in that the airport did not indicate the closed runway with the large lighted upright "X".

Which makes it surpriing that the airport has not tried to fix the problem...

YYZYYT

PS that could NEVER happen at an airport like, say, Toronto, where an accident could be caused / made worse by a runway condition in 1982, and in 2005 it happens again because nothing was done to change it 23 years later...
 
CrossChecked
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:17 am

SQ are a fantastic airline - this accident can be put down to little more than pilot error.
Cabin crew, doors to manual and cross check.
 
twolz2rn
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:51 am

what were the casualties in the accident? Crew? Passengers?
 
zvezda
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting CrossChecked (Reply 27):
this accident can be put down to little more than pilot error.

It was a combination of pilot error and insufficient indications on the ground that 05R was closed. Ultimately, it is the pilot's responsibility to ensure that he's on the correct runway, but that doesn't excuse the airport for failing to erect visible, non-lethal barriers to entry. An upright lighted X would have prevented the accident. So would parking a truck at each entry point.
 
bongo
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting TwoLz2Rn (Reply 28):
what were the casualties in the accident? Crew? Passengers?

83:179

I wonder why the airport did not put any signal at the begining of the runway, is that a regular practice?
I guess just a simple red or yellow cross in the middle of the entrance of the runway avoided the accident.

[Edited 2006-03-17 20:36:10]

[Edited 2006-03-17 20:38:58]
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting TwoLz2Rn (Reply 28):
what were the casualties in the accident? Crew? Passengers?

Read the report Philsquares provided above. 83 out of 179 perished.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
bravo45
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Rotate (Reply 7):
Not exactly right what I said above ... , choosed the wrong rwy 5R instead of 5L. on 5R was a construction site ....

Not to take any of the blame away from the pilots, but during the investigation I happened to see (I don't remember which channel) on TV a commitie I think presenting the pilot's side of the story, how progressive taxi though not requested (by the pilot) was not offered while the weather required to have been offered (I think I remember this right) as the visiblity was very low , how the lights leading to the correct ruway were probably off or had incorrect configuration, there probably was something about the lights on the closed runway as well the one on which the a/c ended up trying to take off on. I know that runway was being used for limited operations like taxi etc.
Its just that as with any accident its a 'chain of events' that lead up to it, not like media would have us believe: A drunk incompetent pilot who couldn't even get the a/c on the proper runway. Its just that the program I saw made it understandable that such things can happen to even competent people who let their guard down no matter on the ground and no matter for how short a time.
May such a tragedy never happen again,
Happy Contrails.

P.S I am for the most part echoing what some have said above, I didn't read all the comments before posting, now that I have its nice to see many here knowing the whole deal unlike the majority of the common people fed by the media. My post was not directed to anyone, just some general remarks.

[Edited 2006-03-17 21:10:13]
 
gritzngravee
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:34 am

This is exactly why a number of people responded angrily to a comment in the DL liquidate or sale post yesterday when an a netter said pilots are grossly overpaid and computers fly planes. Computers do not taxi and taxiing is one of the most dangerous stages before taking off and after landing, it takes 100% concentration and focus to here the commands of the ATC and carry out the commands exactly like you are told to do. I'm not here to blame the pilots or controllers were all human and make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes become tragic but teach lessons to those who are aspiring to become pilots or ATC. Without accidents and agencies to conduct investigations aviation wouldn't be safe.
 
atnight
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:29 pm

BTW, did the captian or f/o survive the incident? if so, is he still flying for SQ or any other airline? and what was his nationality?(Not that it will make me think better or worse of them, just a curiosity)...
B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
 
antares
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:49 pm

I know this is a very uspetting thing to say, but I think the culture at SQ that night failed its customers grievously.

There was haste to depart. The weather was closing in. The transcript I've read of the cockpit conversation was not that expected of professional pilots. There were at least three sets of professional eyes on the flight deck. None noticed they were on the wrong runway, and I do understand the significance if not the piloting subtleties of the abysmal situation at Taipei airport.

SQ essentially admitted its failings by firing the captain concerned, and I'm not sure what happened to the first officer.

Yes they are a great airline. But that reputation will not survive another fatal accident in the next 10 years, so I can only hope for their sakes that constructive, truthful, and determined efforts have been made to learn from this calamity.

Antares
 
Broocy
Posts: 116
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 10):
I would like to publicly express my thanks for the continuing high standards of Singapore Airlines. I believe them to be the best airline in the world and always try to use them on Asian flights.

Sadly, this, the Silk Air suicide debacle, the near disastrous tail scrape incident at Auckland only a couple of years after SQ6 and two personal incidents have dented my faith in SQ's safety standards.

The tail scrape was when the crew on a 744 forgot to factor in the weight of the fuel when calculating V1, Vr and V2. The 744 only just made it into the air, after dragging itself across the runway. It came within metres of crashing. This was a packed 744 too.

I was also on an SQ BKK-SIN flight (after SQ006) where, due to a video failure, the cabin crew had to give a manual demonstration. The pilot interrupted them to ask crew to take their take-off seats before the cabin crew had finished and performed cabin safety checks. When I spoke to the senior flight attendant- in private away from other crew and passengers- I asked him why he let the pilots do that when he was part of the team that ensures our safety. I asked him if he could honestly say the cabin was secure for take-off? He said there was extreme pressure to meet take off times and he didn't want to face the hassle of an investigation into why he would have delayed a flight. He asked if I was going to complain and I said no. The only reason I spoke to him was because I have lost family in an airline crash that was partly caused by people assuming everything was going to be OK, and checks and balances were missed. If someone had simply said "hang on" my family member would be alive. This was all I wanted to share with him.

The second incident was a refuelling error at Singapore that resulted in us being surrounded by firetrucks, lights flashing and with hoses spraying the tarmac, for 15 minutes before the cockpit crew said anything.

Quoting Antares (Reply 35):
know this is a very upsetting thing to say, but I think the culture at SQ that night failed its customers grievously.

Sorry, but I have to echo Antares sentiments.
 
studentflyer
Posts: 667
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:02 am

RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:09 pm

Quoting Atnight (Reply 34):
BTW, did the captian or f/o survive the incident? if so, is he still flying for SQ or any other airline? and what was his nationality?(Not that it will make me think better or worse of them, just a curiosity)...

All Flight-deck crew survived this accident. They all went to court in Taiwan, and was found guilty of negligence IIRC. The then 48 year old captain was sentenced to 240 hours of community service (in 2003 or 2004 IIRC), and subsequently lost his job (and his licence).

IMHO, this is totally contradictory with the actual facts, because realistically, the airport also had deficiencies, which all led to the disaster, so all blame should not be placed on the flight-crew itself, but shared with the airport authorities. Just my view though..
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:47 pm

Quoting Broocy (Reply 36):
Sadly, this, the Silk Air suicide debacle, the near disastrous tail scrape incident at Auckland only a couple of years after SQ6 and two personal incidents have dented my faith in SQ's safety standards.

Broocy, obviously I am somewhat biased in this area, but I think you need to take a realistic look at airline operations.

The refueling error as you describe it is really nothing. That happens all the time when fuel vents through the wing box. The response you witnessed is really quite standard.

Your description of the AKL incident isn't quite what happened. What happened was the crew was given the wrong weight and balance data. No one caught the mistake. Was the crew to blame? Yes, but there was a whole series of events that let the crew down.

As far as the safety demo, in my opinion, that tends to happen at all airlines. My question to you is did the flight deck even know the demo was being done manually? My guess is not. Do airplanes crash because of that mistake? No!

As long as you have humans interfacing in the daily operations of an airline, you will have problems. There is no such thing as 0% errors. What the emphasis should be is on minimizing them, not eliminating them. Is automation the answer, I don't think so, because at some time there will be a failure of the automation.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Broocy
Posts: 116
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:28 pm

For the record I have flown over 1000 sectors as a passenger on all continents. I am not crew, but my interest in aviation safety comes from my family back ground of losing someone in an airline crash.

Quoting Broocy (Reply 36):
Do airplanes crash because of that mistake? No!

No they don't causes crashes, but in the event of a crash happening, an unprepared cabin can cause injury and even impede or block evacuation. It is part of the important safety net of aviation that is designed to minimise injury should the worst happen as perfection is an impossibility.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 38):
My question to you is did the flight deck even know the demo was being done manually? My guess is not.

It was the job of the chief F/A to advise the crew the demonstration was still going and the cabin was unsecured. You re right, it is a common event. A similar even happened when I was travelling in Africa on Zimbabwe Express. The captain then came on the PA, apologised for interrupting the important annoucement and said that the takeoff wasn't going to happen until all cabin safety checks and briefings had been done. The similar thing happened on an Air Pacific flight I was taking. Again take off was delayed.

One could take the view that the airlines from the developing countries are exhibiting best practise that SQ could have emulated on this occassion.

I respect your position as an SQ pilot, and thanks for enlightening me on the AKL incident. I will be reviewing the accident report into it as I might have misunderstood the exact circumstances. For all those reading my previous post, please be aware of this.

[Edited 2006-03-18 10:31:38]
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:33 pm

Quoting Broocy (Reply 39):
One could take the view that the airlines from the developing countries are exhibiting best practise that SQ could have emulated on this occassion

I have been on carriers from all over the world and have seen the cockpit cut off the safety demo. However, I think your above comments are just uncalled for. Mistakes happen and the lack of a safety demo does not warrant the response you have given.

Quoting Broocy (Reply 36):
He said there was extreme pressure to meet take off times and he didn't want to face the hassle of an investigation into why he would have delayed a flight.

He must work for a different SQ than I do! The only "pressure" is to meet the chocks off time. If you're over 3 minutes late then there has to be an explanation. I've never experienced any type of pressure to get out on time or anything remotely resembling pressure.

Since I wasn't there, I can't explain what exactly happened. However, it sounds to me as if the Purser was the one who dropped the ball by not informing the cockpit of the problem in the first place.
Fly fast, live slow
 
nzrich
Posts: 1095
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RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:35 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 38):

As far as the safety demo, in my opinion, that tends to happen at all airlines. My question to you is did the flight deck even know the demo was being done manually? My guess is not. Do airplanes crash because of that mistake? No!

Well i work for Air NZ and we NEVER fly without a full safety briefing being completed and cabin being checked by the crew.. I sometimes operate as purser and under no circumstances would i allow the aircraft to takeoff without the safety demo being done , i know crew at Air NZ also would not allow the aircraft to takeoff without the safety briefing and checks being completed !!!!!
"Pride of the pacific"
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:46 pm

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 41):
Well i work for Air NZ and we NEVER

Not that I doubt you, but mistakes do happen. One thing for sure in aviation, you never use the word NEVER!

Interestingly enough, one of the carriers I was on where the demo was cut short was your carrier. People are human and mistakes do happen. That's why in the front end there are checklists.

I don't want to be quoted as being cold and insensitive, but there are mistakes that will get you killed and one's that won't. I would put this in the last category.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Womack17
Posts: 442
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:49 pm

RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:15 pm

Quoting Broocy (Reply 39):
my interest in aviation safety comes from my family back ground of losing someone in an airline crash

My most sincere condolences to you my friend. Sadly, I understand your aviation safety diligence as I lost my older brother on Wednesday, August 31, 1988 on Delta Flight 1141. My anger at the cavalier attitudes of that flight crew will always stay with me. I remember sitting in NTSB presentation and saying to myself, "What kind of flight crew gets so wrapped up in meaningless conversation that they forget to check their damn flaps and slats?" Most of the 101 pax on that plane survived, sadly my brother was one of 12 who didn't. It has been almost 18 years and I still miss my older brother. He was truly my hero and in my eyes he could do no wrong. Thanks for sharing your comments and never forget that there are others of us in this world who understand all too well your anguish.
Oh how I miss Midway Airlines. A class act right to then end.
 
nzrich
Posts: 1095
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:51 pm

RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:37 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 42):

Not that I doubt you, but mistakes do happen. One thing for sure in aviation, you never use the word NEVER!

Interestingly enough, one of the carriers I was on where the demo was cut short was your carrier. People are human and mistakes do happen. That's why in the front end there are checklists.

I don't want to be quoted as being cold and insensitive, but there are mistakes that will get you killed and one's that won't. I would put this in the last category.

Well yes i can because the culture in our airline puts safety first and yes we do get pressured to get away on time but our safety related tasks take priority. Also we dont have the same culture on board like some asian carriers where Captain is king !!!! In my 7 years with the company i have NEVER been put in a postion where safety was comprimised to get the plane away !!!! Also the plane is NOT allowed to take off without the safety briefing and cabin clearance being completed.. Untill the purser gives the cabin clearance to the captain the plane cant depart !!! So assuming the safety procedures are followed it will never happen on board Air NZ and i have never seen or heard it not being done and believe me in our company it wouldnt take long to come out if it did...
"Pride of the pacific"
 
studentflyer
Posts: 667
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:02 am

RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:59 pm

Nzrich,

how can you be completely sure that it will NEVER happen? It could be that the flight you're on does the safety briefing prior to take off all the time, but what about other flights? A company policy may still be a company policy, but this isn't a perfect world. Mistakes do happen, and sometimes they happen to be without us knowing it. I bet you out of 1000 flights a carrier does, it happened. Each and every purser is different to the way you approach safety, even though each and every single one of them has gone through thorough safety training, over and over again. You cannot say that they all comply with company policy even if it is only once. How can you be sure they all comply with company policy? Have you ever spoken to all pursers that work with Air NZ and asked them individually that they always do what you do? Even if they said yes, i bet you one of them would have not admitted.

I have to agree with PhilSquares here, that mistakes do happen. It may be that the occurence that Broocy experienced was very rare, but due to one's previous experience, one could conclude that it happened most, if not all, of the time.

But judging by the way you are, I must complement you on how you put safety first in every single occasion!

I do, however, give my sympathy to Broocy and Womack17 in relation to the loss of a direct family member. They will always be in my prayer. I hope you both do not have to suffer due to these circumstances. It is very regretful that somehow safety is always cut due to other priorities, even if it is priority no. 1, and somehow we can never learn from previous experiences. God Bless their souls
 
Molykote
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:21 pm

RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:13 pm

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 44):
Well yes i can because the culture in our airline puts safety first and yes we do get pressured to get away on time but our safety related tasks take priority. Also we dont have the same culture on board like some asian carriers where Captain is king !!!! In my 7 years with the company i have NEVER been put in a postion where safety was comprimised to get the plane away !!!! Also the plane is NOT allowed to take off without the safety briefing and cabin clearance being completed.. Untill the purser gives the cabin clearance to the captain the plane cant depart !!! So assuming the safety procedures are followed it will never happen on board Air NZ and i have never seen or heard it not being done and believe me in our company it wouldnt take long to come out if it did...

I can't see a circumstance where human failures are going to be 100% avoided. Likewise, I believe your "will never happen" attitude is another false reality.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "king" (as it relates to the captain) but someone has to have ultimate authority. With this comes responsibility and often times the blame for incidents like our topic of discussion.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 44):
Also we dont have the same culture on board like some asian carriers where Captain is king !!!! In my 7 years with the company i have NEVER been put in a postion where safety was comprimised to get the plane away !!!! Also the plane is NOT allowed to take off without the safety briefing and cabin clearance being completed..

If your comments are directed at SQ, then perhaps you might want to revisit your thoughts. The Captain isn't king at all. However, he is accountable/responsible for the safe operation of the flight. With all this supposition, perhaps the cabin CIC gave the cabin ready alert to the cockpit prior to it being completely done? So now you have the cockpit all set and they get their takeoff clearnace and PA the crew to their stations. So, in this case where does the fault lie? Do you rush up to the cockpit and intervene? If it's a 744 it's a long run. I can tell you most pilots wouldn't answer the intercom at that time, they would be starting the takeoff roll.

So, I guess rather than assuming a "high and mighty" position, and use words like NEVER, you might want to focus on "what if" and develop a plan or strategy. You mentioned in your post you would

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 41):
I sometimes operate as purser and under no circumstances would i allow the aircraft to takeoff without the safety demo being done

On my ANZ flight no one did anything, so much for your "NEVER" theory. Well what would you do? Sometimes your actions might serve to make the situation even worse.

My sympathies go out for everyone who has lost a loved one, especially in a plane crash. I really do take it personally, because the system, the pilots, the aircraft manufacturers, the engineers let the families down. However, no one seems to blink an eye over traffic deaths. What would everyone's reaction be if 2 744s crashed every weekend? People would be outraged. But yet it occurs, in the US traffic fatalities on a national basis would fill 2 744s each week. No one makes any noise about that. How many people use seat belts? How many do a daily inspection of the car as described in the owners manual. But horrific traffic accidents happen all too often.
Fly fast, live slow
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 44):
Well yes i can because the culture in our airline puts safety first and yes we do get pressured to get away on time but our safety related tasks take priority. Also we dont have the same culture on board like some asian carriers where Captain is king !!!! In my 7 years with the company i have NEVER been put in a postion where safety was comprimised to get the plane away !!!! Also the plane is NOT allowed to take off without the safety briefing and cabin clearance being completed.. Untill the purser gives the cabin clearance to the captain the plane cant depart !!! So assuming the safety procedures are followed it will never happen on board Air NZ and i have never seen or heard it not being done and believe me in our company it wouldnt take long to come out if it did...

Your post is kind of pathetic really... The 'Captain is King' comment seems like a cheap shot at some airline (I'm guessing SQ here). I bet if the cockpit crew knew there was a safety demo going on, they wouldn't have taken off. The fact that you've never heard it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Quoting Womack17 (Reply 43):



Quoting Broocy (Reply 39):

My condolences go out to your loved ones.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3666
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: Very Sad...

Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting Sevenforeseven (Reply 18):
SQ say that they will never have a special livery again.

I am sure in a few years they will again, seeing how special liveries do so well on selected planes in the region like Malaysian, Cebu Airways, JAL, ANA, Cathay, Thai, Bangkok Airways, AirAsia etc. It's not like the special colours CAUSED the crash, right? Like making it invisible for the control tower or too heavy to take off.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?

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