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Starlionblue
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Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:42 am

Dvorak is mostly an IT/telecom guru, but I found this all rang very true:

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/essays/alaskan.html

Some comments:
Alaskan still hands out a little sheet with a prayer on it, not a confidence builder in my opinion. Lately the sheets come inside a box of snacks that replaced the once decent meal. I'm uncertain if the prayer is for the flight or the meal. Usually the snacks are dreadful and starchy.

These airlines seem to fall prey to mismanagement over time as the founders are replaced by people with no sense of the business and rely on accountants, consultants and expensive research data. This is the rear-view mirror approach to management. Of course these folks read something like this essay and say I do not know what I'm talking about. Yet they still go out of business.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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N328KF
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:53 am

The computer industry considers Dvorak an idiot. Why shouldn't the aviation industry? Dvorak is the guy who thinks Steve Jobs has it all wrong, after all.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
The computer industry considers Dvorak an idiot. Why shouldn't the aviation industry? Dvorak is the guy who thinks Steve Jobs has it all wrong, after all.

A bit one sided wouldn't you say? He writes well and if he isn't right all the time, well no one is.

For example Steve Jobs did pretty badly at Apple in the late 80s because the technology he wanted was impossible at the time. No one is right all the time.



Also, let's for a minute get off our high horse and try to see things from the viewpoint of a guy who doesn't know the minutiae of the various Delta Widget variants. This guy represents the viewpoint of many customers. These customers don't know the 737NG is more modern than the MD-8x, they just know it's more quiet when you're in front of the wings.
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:07 am

John Dvorak is the Andy Rooney of the technogeek set. He invented something minor in 1973 called Ethernet (ok, so a major accomplishment here). He considers the Qwerty keyboard all wrong and invented his own (the Dvorak keyboard..yeah you know...the one you're NOT using). He's a little pompous and full of himself. No one knows more about anything than him.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 3):
John Dvorak is the Andy Rooney of the technogeek set. He invented something minor in 1973 called Ethernet (ok, so a major accomplishment here). He considers the Qwerty keyboard all wrong and invented his own (the Dvorak keyboard..yeah you know...the one you're NOT using). He's a little pompous and full of himself. No one knows more about anything than him.

Hey I use Dvorak keyboard! Joking. First of all, it was not invented by John Dvorak but by August Dvorak in the 20s and secondly there are a host of good arguments for it. The QWERTY keyboard is laid out to SLOW DOWN keystrokes by purposely putting keys in an unfavorable position. This is because on early typewriters a well fast typist could break the typewriter if they went too fast. The only argument (and it's a big one) against the Dvorak layout is the rather large QWERTY installed base.

And yes, he is full of himself. But I get the feeling it is more important to him to be perceived as having a strong opinion than to be perceived as being right. After all, he does get attention, and thus money. Kind of like Jerry Springer.  Wink


But getting back to the subject instead of the man: Is he wrong about the airlines? I find his arguments pretty reasonable.

[Edited 2006-03-17 22:18:13]
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
The computer industry considers Dvorak an idiot.

More, he doesn't know a lot of things, and has strong, one-sided opinions about them anyway, often proving himself a fool. Sort of like these forums!

But as long as you keep clicking his links, he'll still get paid...
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mariner
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:20 am

It read like a pertfectly reasonable article to me.

It is this guy's opinion, and he has some very valid points to make about the development of civil aviation on the West Coast.

Why the hostility to him?

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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
It read like a pertfectly reasonable article to me.

It is this guy's opinion, and he has some very valid points to make about the development of civil aviation on the West Coast.

Why the hostility to him?

I think most IT people are a bit tired of him. He's in some ways the Bill O'Reilly of the IT world. Argumentative and pompous. But I agree with you that this shouldn't indict his writing about aviation by default.
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
It read like a pertfectly reasonable article to me.

If you enjoy one sided bs

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
It is this guy's opinion, and he has some very valid points to make about the development of civil aviation on the West Coast.

no, he does not.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
Why the hostility to him?

Beacuse he is a pompus ass whos full of himself and thinks the aviation industry is still in 1993 where you got a 3 corse meal on a JFK-BOS shuttle and fares were 130 rt last minute. This crackpot is living in the past and his keyboards suck.
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 8):
Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
Why the hostility to him?

Beacuse he is a pompus ass whos full of himself and thinks the aviation industry is still in 1993 where you got a 3 corse meal on a JFK-BOS shuttle and fares were 130 rt last minute. This crackpot is living in the past and his keyboards suck.

Still not his keyboards. That's another Dvorak.
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
QWERTY keyboard is laid out to SLOW DOWN keystrokes by purposely putting keys in an unfavorable position. This is because on early typewriters a well fast typist could break the typewriter if they went too fast.

I thought it was so the arms with the letters on a typewriter wouldn't hit each other?
 
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 10):
I thought it was so the arms with the letters on a typewriter wouldn't hit each other?

Its is, I dont know where everyone is getting the "slow down thing"
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
But I agree with you that this shouldn't indict his writing about aviation by default.

No, but I ask you don't click on his link and give him more money. He's not worth it.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
Still not his keyboards. That's another Dvorak.

Then his music sucks. No, wait, it's good. And it's not that Dvorak either...  Wink
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 10):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
QWERTY keyboard is laid out to SLOW DOWN keystrokes by purposely putting keys in an unfavorable position. This is because on early typewriters a well fast typist could break the typewriter if they went too fast.

I thought it was so the arms with the letters on a typewriter wouldn't hit each other?



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 11):
Quoting A319XFW (Reply 10):
I thought it was so the arms with the letters on a typewriter wouldn't hit each other?

Its is, I dont know where everyone is getting the "slow down thing"

Actually, the point is much debated and both purposeful slowing down and jamming of arms are viable hypotheses. And they are related.


BTW the world speed typing record was set with, you guessed it, a Dvorak keyboard...

[Edited 2006-03-17 23:10:10]
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mariner
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:20 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 8):
If you enjoy one sided bs

I expect an opinion to be one-sided. That is what "an opinion" is. Your "opinion" is one-sided, too, as is mine.

But I didn't think there was much bs in his.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 8):
no, he does not.

I think he does.

You were there, in CA, at the time of PSA? You know better?

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 8):
Beacuse he is a pompus ass whos full of himself and thinks the aviation industry is still in 1993 where you got a 3 corse meal on a JFK-BOS shuttle and fares were 130 rt last minute.

What - it's not okay to comment that an airline used to serve decent food?

And at least he can spell.

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mariner
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pgtravel
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter):
Dvorak is mostly an IT/telecom guru, but I found this all rang very true:

I think that a lot of what he says makes sense, but there are some things that really don't make sense at all. For example, I can't remember ever hearing someone say they enjoyed the experience on a cramped Metro as a passenger!

He's probably also the only person in Seattle who is angry that AS started service to airports like DFW and DEN. I can't see how that became a contributor to their supposed "downfall" in customer service. Most people I know are glad that AS can take them further than just the west coast these days.

He also loses a great deal of credit by not researching the facts on what happened to PS, WA, and OC. PS, for example, was in bad shape. They were bleeding money and without US taking them over, they may not have lasted much longer. Don't get me wrong, they were a fantastic airline to fly and I'm just as sad that they no longer exist, but he acts like they could do no wrong until US came in.

And I don't even want to get into the cabotage discussion here. It's a lot more complicated than he seems to think.
 
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
More, he doesn't know a lot of things, and has strong, one-sided opinions about them anyway, often proving himself a fool.

Kind of like Bush, but wait you like him so you defend him blindly in NonAv. Good stuff.

Back to the topic at hand: the guy is pompous but he expresses things well and as somebdoy else has already pointed out he comes from the same level of air travel knowledge as many flyers.

YOWza
 
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting Pgtravel (Reply 15):
He also loses a great deal of credit by not researching the facts on what happened to PS, WA, and OC. PS, for example, was in bad shape.

I've re-read the article twice since your post, and I am puzzled by your responses.

Quoting Pgtravel (Reply 15):
For example, I can't remember ever hearing someone say they enjoyed the experience on a cramped Metro as a passenger!

I'll put my hand up for the Metro on certain flights.

Quoting Pgtravel (Reply 15):
He's probably also the only person in Seattle who is angry that AS started service to airports like DFW and DEN.

I don't see any anger in what he says, I see fair comment. And there are poeple who would prefer that Alaska stayed true to its name.

They may be out of step with the modern times - of all airlines all looking the same and all serving all the same places - but that doesn't make their opinion less valid.

Quoting Pgtravel (Reply 15):
He also loses a great deal of credit by not researching the facts on what happened to PS, WA, and OC. PS, for example, was in bad shape.

I don't see any claims by him that PSA was in great financial shape. He says that from a customer perspective it was a terrific airline - I agree - and that it was destroyed by the East Coast take-over.

I find it very hard to argue with that.

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Starlionblue
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting Pgtravel (Reply 15):
He also loses a great deal of credit by not researching the facts on what happened to PS, WA, and OC. PS, for example, was in bad shape. They were bleeding money and without US taking them over, they may not have lasted much longer. Don't get me wrong, they were a fantastic airline to fly and I'm just as sad that they no longer exist, but he acts like they could do no wrong until US came in.

Agreed, but I think the article is an interesting illustration of how "the general public" perceives the issue.

Quoting Pgtravel (Reply 15):
And I don't even want to get into the cabotage discussion here. It's a lot more complicated than he seems to think.

Oh yeah. Still, Emirates, Cathay, Singapore and Virgin Atlantic competing on JFK-SFO. A guy can dream  Wink

Quoting YOWza (Reply 16):
Back to the topic at hand: the guy is pompous but he expresses things well and as somebdoy else has already pointed out he comes from the same level of air travel knowledge as many flyers.

That's my point. Less nutty observers than us see the experience in a whole other way, and the mainstream press is hardly a good source of information.
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pgtravel
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:59 am

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, Mariner, (except for actually enjoying a Metro!), and I'm probably judging his words too harshly. As a confirmed airline dork, I get caught up in details, when the point is that he's trying to say he's a regular guy when it comes to flying, and it's a perspective to which airline execs need to pay attention. The question is whether or not he's actually representing how people feel, and there are some things he says that I don't hear from anyone else.

I don't know many people (now, I know at least one), who would prefer a Metro over a Dash-8 for comfort. I also don't know many people who consider an MD-80 to be quiet. He must be riding up in first class and not in the last row. Most people I know, especially those here in LA, would rather fly a 737 just because they think it's newer, and they remember the AS MD80 crash off the coast here and somehow translate that to being unsafe. As I said before, I also don't know many people who felt that flying to DEN and DFW was the wrong thing. (Anger probably was too hard of a word to use.)

Either way, it's a different kind of perspective and it does make for interesting reading.
 
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
Why the hostility to him?

Because airline management is infallible and above criticism  Yeah sure

Daring to say anything even remotely critical means you're uninformed, naive, self-serving, arrogant, ignorant, ungrateful, insenstive, pompous, selfish, out of touch, etc. etc.

In other words, Dvorak is probably right.

Charles, SJ
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mariner
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 am

Quoting Pgtravel (Reply 19):
I don't know many people (now, I know at least one), who would prefer a Metro over a Dash-8 for comfort. I

Is that what he is saying? I read that he enjoyed flying the Metro's on some local routes and that when they were replaced with bigger aircraft, something was lost.

I flew with Turtle Airways on a tiny seaplane to a Fiji island resort and loved that everyone knew the barefoot pilot and he knew everyone on the island.
And that when we got off the plane, we stepped up to our knees in the fantastic still, warm water of the lagoon and waded ashore.

A bigger aircraft might be more effective, comfortable, etc, but I might lose that sense of community, and of fun and of adventure.

Quoting Pgtravel (Reply 19):
I also don't know many people who consider an MD-80 to be quiet. He must be riding up in first class and not in the last row.

Probably, but not necessarily. My memory of the VC-10 is that is was what BOAC said - whisper quiet. I'm sure it wasn't if you were sitting at the back, near the engines, but a lot of the joy of travel is about nostalgia. It is easy to block out the memory of the less pleasant bits.

And yes, I have met many people who think that Alaska Airways has "lost its way". I've met several people who wish that Alaska was still flying to Russia and not DEN or DFW.

If I were going to Russia, I'm sure I'd rather fly there via Anchorage and Magadan than getting on yet another bland aircraft of a big gray airline and waking up in Moscow.

I like a little adventure when I fly. Obviously, so does Mr. Dvorak. Or perhaps it is simply an exercise in nostalgia.

Those of us who were flying before even "the glory days" accept that airlines have homogenized - we don't have a choice.

That doesn't mean we don't admire and enjoy modern travel, but we can still remember the good old days with enormous pleasure and wish that things were just a bit different.

cheers

mariner
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:41 pm

Must say that the article contains a gem of a phrase that I will treasure:-

".....the founders are replaced by people with no sense of the business and rely on accountants, consultants and expensive research data. This is the rear-view mirror approach to management."

What a perfect description of the way too many managers seem to operate these days.

Thanks for posting it, Starlionblue - a good read!
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:40 pm

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 20):
Daring to say anything even remotely critical means you're uninformed, naive, self-serving, arrogant, ignorant, ungrateful, insenstive, pompous, selfish, out of touch, etc. etc.

In other words, Dvorak is probably right.

I am not speaking on his writing in this context,, but in general, Dvorak is several of the adjectives you chose. He's a nitwit in the IT industry, and it discredits his writing on this subject, in my eyes. The only reason people in this forum are so willing to go along with what he is saying is because they have not read the absolute tripe he has been pouring out in PC Magazine, Computer Shopper (when it was actually relevant) and other magazines for the past couple ofd ecades.
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:35 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 3):
John Dvorak is the Andy Rooney of the technogeek set. He invented something minor in 1973 called Ethernet (ok, so a major accomplishment here). He considers the Qwerty keyboard all wrong and invented his own (the Dvorak keyboard..yeah you know...the one you're NOT using). He's a little pompous and full of himself. No one knows more about anything than him.

I don't know if you are being tongue in cheek, but Dvorak didn't invent Ethernet or the Dvorak keyboard (someone did mention that). Robert Metcalfe, the founder of 3COM and another IT columnist, invented Ethernet.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 23):
I am not speaking on his writing in this context,, but in general, Dvorak is several of the adjectives you chose. He's a nitwit in the IT industry, and it discredits his writing on this subject, in my eyes. The only reason people in this forum are so willing to go along with what he is saying is because they have not read the absolute tripe he has been pouring out in PC Magazine, Computer Shopper (when it was actually relevant) and other magazines for the past couple ofd ecades.

John Dvorak is an idiot, nitwit, hack and many other derogatory terms. I am inclined to ignore articles when I see his byline.
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:43 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 14):
What - it's not okay to comment that an airline used to serve decent food?

And at least he can spell.

cheers

mariner

It's Alaska Airlines, not Alaskan.
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ctbarnes
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 21):
Those of us who were flying before even "the glory days" accept that airlines have homogenized - we don't have a choice.

The irony is Anthony Sampson, in his book Empires of the Sky, said virtually the same thing in the mid-80's.

The root of the problem, IMHO, is a disconnect between what customers want and what the airlines think they want. Airlines think customers them to be in the transportation business. Customers really expect them also to be in the service business. In short, many (not all) industry problems are self-inflicted.

Charles, SJ
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 26):
The root of the problem, IMHO, is a disconnect between what customers want and what the airlines think they want.

I agree. Or rather, I think the airlines will continue to search for the bottom line until the customer, the passenger, says no more.

If Ryanair is the model, the US airlines are not at the point of customer rebellion yet.

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 25):
It's Alaska Airlines, not Alaskan.

Yes, indeed. But the spelling of "Alaskan" is correct.  Smile

cheers

mariner
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ctbarnes
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 27):
I agree. Or rather, I think the airlines will continue to search for the bottom line until the customer, the passenger, says no more.

The sad thing is they won't find it if the continue like they do.

Charles, SJ
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tranceport
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:54 am

I guess I'm one of those non-aviation guys. What he says makes a lot of sense. This thread hasn't had a whole lot of substance so far. Instead of whining about how he's pompous and too full of himself, why don't one of you guys break down his article paragraph by paragraph and present a viable argument as to why what he says isn't credible? I'd like to see an industry insider's factual analysis of why he's so off mark?

Cathay Pacific has traffic rights between YVR and JFK. Most of my friends and most everyone in my office chooses to use CX when they travel from YVR to JFK. Why? They're all non-aviation people. I'll leave that for everyone else to discuss, but I think the man has a point.

[Edited 2006-03-18 19:55:37]
 
pillowtester
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:07 am

I think half the time Dvorak is joking when he writes articles. I think he purposely makes them irritating to many people so he can humor himself as he watches the whole world discuss him.

Maybe that's where his ego comes from?

This is the same guy who has written an article about every six months for the past ten years claiming Apple would be out of business by the end of the year.
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:27 am

Man,
I got it wrong on both accounts. You're right Robert Metcalfe invented Ethernet. Got it confused because Metcalfe is also a writer for the IT industry and has strong opinions. Unlike Dvorak though, Metcalfe is spot on allot of the time.

I was also wrong about the Dvorak keyboard too.

So, this only proves that Dvorak hasn't really contributed anything meaningful to the IT industry.

So where in the world did Dvorak get his clout? Is it his penchant for highlighting in bold text the odd keyword in his prose that is soley responsible for his being so well received by the public?
learning never stops.
 
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mariner
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Pillowtester (Reply 30):
This is the same guy who has written an article about every six months for the past ten years claiming Apple would be out of business by the end of the year.

I'm a Mac baby. I started using the 128K Mac in the mid-eighties, and I won't use PC's - I find them clunky, and Windows is nothing more than an attempt to turn a PC into a Mac.

I am very aware of the scores - if not hundreds - of commentators who have predicted the downfall of Apple and Mac.

Before Steve Jobs came back to Apple, all of Wall Street was predicting the fall - and it is probably only the iPod that saved 'em.

But I don't see what Mr. Dvorak's thoughts on Apple have to do with his comments as a passenger on airlines.

So he's wrong about Apple - he's not alone.

From my perspective, he says a lot that I agree with about airlines. It isn't particularly profound, many people of my generation think these things every day. I know I do.

But given the scornful, hostile reaction to some very bland writing, people seem to be getting seriously confused between the messenger and the message.

cheers

mariner
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Starlionblue
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RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 32):
But given the scornful, hostile reaction to some very bland writing, people seem to be getting seriously confused between the messenger and the message.



Quoting Tranceport (Reply 29):
I guess I'm one of those non-aviation guys. What he says makes a lot of sense. This thread hasn't had a whole lot of substance so far. Instead of whining about how he's pompous and too full of himself, why don't one of you guys break down his article paragraph by paragraph and present a viable argument as to why what he says isn't credible? I'd like to see an industry insider's factual analysis of why he's so off mark?

Cathay Pacific has traffic rights between YVR and JFK. Most of my friends and most everyone in my office chooses to use CX when they travel from YVR to JFK. Why? They're all non-aviation people. I'll leave that for everyone else to discuss, but I think the man has a point.

My thoughts exactly. The problem is that on this forum, everyone knows something about aviation, and so we are biased in one way or another. "Normal" passengers see things in a completely different way.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
etfokker50
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:04 pm

RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:00 am

Y'all gotta agree tho, Dvorak is great on TWIT (twit.tv) a great podcast, incase ya didn't know. He does have some attitude and he does dominate the conversation every once in a while, but otherwise he has great, out of this world ideas.
 
tjc2
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:47 am

RE: Nice Rant On US Market From A Non-aviation Guy

Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
world speed typing record

oh dear...
The only time I made a mistake was when I thought I was wrong...

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