keesje
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Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:54 am

The Boeing 787 will be introduced with a range of new of improvements. New technology will be introduced such as a mostly composite airframe, bleed air technology and engine interchange ability.



Question is it this will make it a game changer for its users, the airlines. Boeing and the media tell us so: http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=boeing+787+game+changer&meta=

Better first define a "game changer" . We perhaps can define this as having a significant impact on the way airlines operate/compete, or play their "game".

Arguably we can say the Fokker F7, Caravelle, DC3, DC4, Boeing 707, Boeing 747, A300, A380, Bombardier and Embraer RJ´s and probably a few more can be considered game changers. They set new standards and possibilities for airlines and forced other manufacturers to follow suit.

Overall aircraft configuration
Given a few inches/feet the aircraft has identical dimensions and configuration as the A330-200.

Maintenance costs
- Engines seem to be developed along the lines of GE90 and CFM engines. Maintenance costs/shop visit intervals costs will hopefully be better, but likely not much better.
- Component costs will be different, mainly as far as electrics are concerned. Not clear if it will have any cost advantages. Even unlikely IMO.
- Airframe: Boeing promises airframe check intervals will be longer. Costs of inspection & repair not clear yet. Airframe costs are not a major part of total maintenance costs.
- Line Maintenance; Airlines are a bit worried on airframe repair technology on out stations.

Fuel costs
The GenX uses the newest technology from the GE90 series. GE calls it evolutionary. The same goes for the Trent1000. Improvement over the newest CF6 and Trent 700 engines engines will hopefully significant but not revolutionary.

Passenger capacity
Passenger capasity falls right in existing A & B aircraft family’s roughly between 767-300ER and B777-200ER. Not something really different here.

Passenger comfort
Passenger comfort is defined largely by airline specifications. Air pressure and humidity improvements are not expected to make travelling a real new experience for travellers or airlines. 9 abreast seems to be the preferred configuration, narrower then e.g. usual 777 and A340 cabin configurations.

Range capabilities
The B787 offers no significant range capabilities over existing aircraft. Long flights are already flown by similar sized aircraft e.g. CDG-NRT and PHX-NRT by A330s. Routes even further are flown today by 200-250 seat A345s and 772LR´s, but don´t make up a significant part of air travel. Optimal aircraft utilization, limited demand and cost/frequency advantages of hubs play a role.

Speed capabilities
The 787 will offer no significant speed advantages over existing aircraft.

Use by aircraft operators / network developments
Point to point travel and hub oriented operations will likely both continue to develop as they have been for the last 10-15 years. If a city pair can fill a daily flight you can try it. Hubs provide frequencies and economies of scale for thousands of city pairs. I cannot see how the Boeing 787 will influence this over existing types. Network carriers and Leisure / Charters will continue to do what they do, driven by passenger/network demand.

A combinations of all above mentioned factors
Hopefully the combination of above improvements will give airlines a cost saving for their operations. There is however no indication the Boeing 787 offers capabilities / cost reductions that will change airlines or network operations.

So: will the Boeing 787 be the a great aircraft? Yes, hopefully/ probably!
It will be a next step in further optimalization and cost efficiency in the medium / long range segment.

Will the Boeing 787 be a Game Changer? No, why should it?
Sofar there are no indications the 787 (or A350) will have a significant impact on the way the Boeing 787 customers, Network and Leisure Airlines, operate/compete, play their "game". The game is influenced by other factors then the great Boeing 787.

http://www.ab-pr.com/upload/Boeing/Bulten/Northwest%20787-H.jpg

[Edited 2006-03-18 00:01:29]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Arguably we can say the Fokker F7, Caravelle, DC3, DC4, Boeing 707, Boeing 747, A300, A380, Bombardier and Embraer RJ´s and probably a few more can be considered game changers.

Why not the Boeing 767? It is the most frequently used aircraft across the Atlantic and enabled a whole slew of new routes to open during the 80s and 90s, all while furthering the introduction of ETOPS procedures.

Now, if you agree with the B767, you must include the B787. It will do the same thing and more for the Pacific market and further long-thin hub-point routes.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Hubs provide frequencies and economies of scale for thousands of city pairs. I cannot see how the Boeing 787 will influence this over existing types.

Ugh... 2003 Keesje redux all over again  Yeah sure

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
The game is influenced by other factors then the great Boeing 787.

Yet another hot-sports opinion from Keesje, yet another irrelevant self-serving monoluge from Keesje.

Boeing doesn't build aircraft for the feel-good factor, they sell them to make money. In the last two years, they've done a rather impressive job of doing so. That's what count ...
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):

Boeing doesn't build aircraft for the feel-good factor, they sell them to make money. In the last two years, they've done a rather impressive job of doing so. That's what count ...

like being the fastest wide-body plane sold in history........and potentially hundreds more to come this year....

the plane might pay for itself off even before it's flight certified........

THAT's a gamechanger..........unlike Leahy's "gamechanger"....which is struggling for sales....
"Up the Irons!"
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Better first define a "game changer" . We perhaps can define this as having a significant impact on the way airlines operate/compete, or play their "game".

Ok, let me take this... Remember late 1970s? Bunch of DC-10s, L-1101s and 747s flying over the Atlantic? Remember when 767-200ER came out and opened a whole bunch of new city pairs with added frequency? Now check this out: You have a bunch of A340s, 777s and 747s flying on transpacific routes, only between major points in Asia and North America. 787 will do to that market what 767 did to transatlantic market in the early 1980s. You will see hub-fragmentation with new Asian routes being open from places like PHL for example, or any "smaller" market anywhere in America/Europe/Asia that is not able to support anything larger than 250-seater right now. Personally I think there will be a whole bunch of new city pairs between places like China and Vietnam, and Europe and North America, it's not unlikely that Japanese carriers will start flying their 787s to places like ATL or DFW or PHL, Vietnamese would go into WAW or PRG or CPH, Chinese would open up many more potential gateways from PRC into USA, giving Beijing or Shanghai some relief... I could go on and on...
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Johnny
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:25 am

A gamechanger ?

No,but the first airplane which is overhyped BEFORE delivery.

Lots of promises which have to reached.A very hard job for Boeing ( or should i say for all subcontracted companies, because mostly all high-technology and advanced parts will be developed by other companies...)

I still trying to understand how Boeing will reach their target of 2008 EIS.

Johnny  Smile
 
Thorben
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Passenger comfort
Passenger comfort is defined largely by airline specifications. Air pressure and humidity improvements are not expected to make travelling a real new experience for travellers or airlines. 9 abreast seems to be the preferred configuration, narrower then e.g. usual 777 and A340 cabin configurations.

I have been wondering about this as well. Some airlines have already used nine abreast in the Airbus fuselage, who will keep the airlines from using nine in a 787?? I think the decision to make the fuselage somewhat wider than that of Airbus might turn out to be the shot into the own foot.

(Pleeeze Boeing lovers, don't flame me for that. It's just a thought)
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:28 am

I would say it is a game changer because it is the first big plane built out of so many composites. Other airplanes used composites before, especially Airbus planes, but none did in such a consequent way.

I would call that a significant change.
 
Cruiser
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:33 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
They set new standards and possibilities for airlines and forced other manufacturers to follow suit.

Wow...your definition of a game changer seems to describe the 787 to the dot.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:39 am

Although this is not an official payload range diagram it seems pretty well substantiated & typical for this category of aircraft http://www.lissys.demon.co.uk/samp1/index.html

Thing is, when flying far further then 6000nm with a twin single engined aircraft you start off loading payload. Seatcount goes down to provide ultra long haul flight comfort, cargo vanishes, seat/ trip cost go up, fleet utilization down. http://www.lissys.demon.co.uk/samp1/payrb.png

There are always 1 stop alternatives via many hubs on either side of the oceans, providing high frequencies, lower prices and prossibly better comfort. So it is a tricky business, a niche market. As sales for A345/777LR learn.

I doubt very much 787´s will be used this way. A think more the <14 hour flights that are 95% of the flights now flown by 767s, a330 / 340/777´s.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
Why not the Boeing 767?

I considered it & did not exclude it. The 767 opened twin efficiency & city pairs on the Atlantic but was a reaction on the A300 that proved twin widebody open water operations. Like the A320, technological revolutionairy but not a game changer compared to the 737/MD twins IMO.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
I have been wondering about this as well. Some airlines have already used nine abreast in the Airbus fuselage, who will keep the airlines from using nine in a 787?? I think the decision to make the fuselage somewhat wider than that of Airbus might turn out to be the shot into the own foot.

(Pleeeze Boeing lovers, don't flame me for that. It's just a thought)

I have to agree on that one... 3+3+3 with 17 inch seats = bad idea comfort-wise... Airbus still is a winner here... though nothing will beat 787s 2+4+2 in Y... I'm praying that's what CO picked and that's what they'll fly if they decide to open EWR - WAW...
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
Halibut
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Baloney !

Keesje : great a-netter , but in denial !  spin 

Halibut
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
LY4XELD
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 4):
No,but the first airplane which is overhyped BEFORE delivery.

Ever hear of a little airplane called the A380??
That's why we're here.
 
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alaskaqantas
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
So: will the Boeing 787 be the a great aircraft? Yes, hopefully/ probably!

I would say YES the 787 WILL be a great aircraft!!!

One reason people aren't as interested in the 787 (in my opinion) is because the A380 is now flying. But with the things going wrong in the testing process and that it will have a late delivery from the original date, I don't think that the A380 is as good as we had all thought.
now I'm not saying that I hate Airbus, or that I'm not going to fly on the A380 or anything. I'm just saying that give the 787 some time and I think that it will be a great addition not only to the airlines that choose to use it, but it will be one of those airplanes that will be around for ages!!!

Cheers-
Kyle H.

P.S. I love the new wing design on the 787!!! now that is some revolutionary stuff right there  Wink
to some people the sky is the limit, to aviation enthusiasts, its home!
 
Halibut
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Hhmm,
Well it certainly changed Airbus's game plan !  silly 

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...rbus+seeks+cheaper+composites.html

Airbus seeks cheaper composites
Airbus believes low-cost composites will be key to winning the next-generation narrowbody battle with Boeing and plans to invest hundreds of millions of dollars developing the technology.

Halibut
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
thebry
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 4):
A gamechanger ?

No,but the first airplane which is overhyped BEFORE delivery.

Lots of promises which have to reached.A very hard job for Boeing ( or should i say for all subcontracted companies, because mostly all high-technology and advanced parts will be developed by other companies...)

Johnny  

These other companies are "developing" advanced parts to Boeing specifications.

I think another "game changing" aspect of the 787 is the manufacturing process itself. It's extremely diverse, and culminates in most sections arriving fully kitted, and ready for final assembly. Once the parts arrive Washington, it'll take just days to final assemble. Pretty impressive, and game changing in my book.
 
andessmf
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 4):
No,but the first airplane which is overhyped BEFORE delivery.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
And the A380, what do you call that??

The 787 offers incremental increases in efficiency, across the board, for the overall higher efficiency as compared to similar airplanes.

The big change is the move to composites, a completely different way of manufacturing and maintaining an airplane.
 
Poitin
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting Halibut (Reply 14):
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Hhmm,
Well it certainly changed Airbus's game plan ! silly

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...rbus+seeks+cheaper+composites.html

Airbus seeks cheaper composites
Airbus believes low-cost composites will be key to winning the next-generation narrowbody battle with Boeing and plans to invest hundreds of millions of dollars developing the technology.

Halibut

Exacty correct. And remember that EK just pushed off delivery of their 340-600s.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
PVD757
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:16 am

Johnny- I think you confused the 787 with the A380. That is an overhyped plane. Does Airbus think they will still sell 500 of those behemoths? Dream on.......... fight 
 
Johnny
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:27 am

The B787 is overhyped and lots Airliners.net user trust in the figures Boeing is providing and like it.

The A380 is not overhyped, because IT IS indeed a new class of airplane, but there are mostly negative meanings about it here at A.net.( Two heavy,etc)

To bring it down to two sentences:

If the A380 would be a Boeing,than it would be great for these a.net users.If the B787 would be an Airbus, it would be an airplane with lots of uncertainties ( composites etc...)

It is all only A vs. B.  Wink


Johnny
 
andessmf
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 19):

Umm...right, if that is what you think. Me, Im in the majority, including those gullible airlines that ordered it.  sarcastic 

The A380 is a new class of airplane?? To some, the Airbus should be classed the SAME as a 747, so lets try to figure out where it stands. If you claim that it is a different class Is it the biggest airplane, by weight, that has ever flown? No, that prize belongs to the An-225. It is the biggest passenger airplane? Yes, but excuse my ignorance for asking what is the new technology being used for it?
 
goodmanr
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 19):
If the B787 would be an Airbus

...Then it would be great for people like you?

Come on, let's get serious here. I'm tired of reading the same people saying good things about A and bad about B and vice versa. Why can't we all just play nice?
USAirways - Chairmans Gold
 
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ER757
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Air pressure and humidity improvements are not expected to make travelling a real new experience for travellers or airlines.

Why not? I think this could be significant.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
They set new standards and possibilities for airlines and forced other manufacturers to follow suit.

Hmmm - sounds a lot like the 787 to me.

Quoting Thebry (Reply 15):
I think another "game changing" aspect of the 787 is the manufacturing process itself. It's extremely diverse, and culminates in most sections arriving fully kitted, and ready for final assembly. Once the parts arrive Washington, it'll take just days to final assemble. Pretty impressive, and game changing in my book.

 checkmark 

Quoting Johnny (Reply 4):
Lots of promises which have to reached.

Agreed - if this plane is everything Boeing promises though, then it will most definitely be a "game changer."
 
alexchao
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:56 am

I think only time will tell whether or not the B787 AND the A380 will be game changers.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Arguably we can say the Fokker F7, Caravelle, DC3, DC4, Boeing 707, Boeing 747, A300, A380, Bombardier and Embraer RJ´s and probably a few more can be considered game changers. They set new standards and possibilities for airlines and forced other manufacturers to follow suit.

If those airplanes are game changers, then I think the 777 is also a game changer. We're seeing more and more airplanes go with the twin-engine concept across the transpacific which was previously dominated by the 747.

I think we can all agree that right now is an exciting time for commercial aviation. We're seeing new airplanes enter the market, and the competition will benefit the consumer and airlines.
 
aa1818
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:57 am

I mst honestly say I agree that the thread starter is right. No game changer apart from helping airlines save money. It won't magically make all operators profitable or change the way we travel. Im sure that it will set new standards, i.e inflight comfort, efficiency and sales levels, but to say game changer I think even if it meets all expectations, will be a bit of an over-statement. I love the 787 and honestly think it will win more market share than anything airbus is currently offering, but I won't say it's a gamechanger.

AA1818
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LY4XELD
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:12 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 19):
The A380 is not overhyped, because IT IS indeed a new class of airplane, but there are mostly negative meanings about it here at A.net.( Two heavy,etc)

A VLA is not a new class of airplane. A 747 can carry many people, and it already established the VLA class. I suppose if you differentiated a "super" jumbo vs. a jumbo...but it's still a jumbo. I'm not trying to flame a A vs. B war, it's just.
That's why we're here.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:23 am

Depends, what kind of game do you want to change?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:28 am

787 is going to change the game for sure. It will start to take apart the hub and spoke model for international travel. it's going to make flights internationally increasinly point to point and frequent. it will make flying international a different game, for sure. The A350 (which was developed solely because airlines rejected that A330 was good enough to compete with 787) will also be part of this change. It's long range, low cost, mid-size travel. Atleast as much as A300 did, maybe even as much as 747.


There is a reason this is the best selling commercial jet ever before one has ever left the drawing board.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
CptGermany
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting Thebry (Reply 15):
Once the parts arrive Washington, it'll take just days to final assemble. Pretty impressive, and game changing in my book.

When I read this, the first thing that came to my mind was that Airbus has been doing this for quite a while in Toulouse for A340/330, A320, A300/310 and in Hamburg for A318/319/321. Maybe there is something else Boeing is doing differently. If yes, please enlighten me.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 19):
The B787 is overhyped and lots Airliners.net user trust in the figures Boeing is providing and like it.

Johnny, I wouldn't go that far. The B787 is a great concept that is taking shape rather quickly. There are a whole bunch of innovations in that aircraft just like in the A380. Both aircraft will change commercial aviation once more.

Besides, I believe that every single aircraft changed the game because each one was designed to do more and do it better than its predecessors.

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 20):
The A380 is a new class of airplane?? To some, the Airbus should be classed the SAME as a 747, so lets try to figure out where it stands.

The A380 is a new airplane because it is a new concept with two full passenger decks and many other things. From an air traffic management and noise perspective, Airbus is trying to have it share the same restrictions as the B747 and better. It is a matter of perspective.

Quoting Alexchao (Reply 23):
I think only time will tell whether or not the B787 AND the A380 will be game changers.

 checkmark 
 
elvis777
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:44 am

Hi Keesje!

Are you sure you are still impartial to both manufacturers? Cus it sure looks like you have a preference (counting your other posts as well)!!

It really does feel better when you accept reality and come out to the world (Not that there is anything wrong with that!). Overcoming denial is the first step in the path towards happiness

Here let me help you. I prefer E....... Over the North American Plane manufacturer.....


Not too many words in there. Just say it and we can move forward to bigger and more interesting topics.

Here is one we could talk about: There is no bussiness case for the whalejet and so it will be a drag on Eads resources and it will not sell very well so it will not change the game b/c no too many people want it- kind of like the A300 since they were giving those away in the 70s 80s(eastern airlines for one). Wow, maybe the A300/a310 was a game changer since the airlines were preactically getting them for free.. Had'nt thought about like that!

Here is another one: Whalejet, Whalejet, Whalejet, Whalejet.... Uhm, no matter how I look at the whalejet it does not look like an eagle and it will never be called the eagle! Every time I think of your post, with the eagle superimposed over the whalejet - or where the photos side by side- I forget, it brings a smile to my face.

Anyways, once you accept the obvious - that you have a preference for Eads - we can talk about stuff like those I mentioned above!

Think about it , please?

Peace

Elvis777
Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
 
Johnny
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:48 am

@ FlyDreamliner

A 350 and B787 will offer midsize-lowcost-longrange travel ??? Why? Because they offer lower operating costs than todays midsize airplanes?

That is wrong - they are offering the same improvements to todays airplanes like for example the MD 11, A340 and B777 had in comparison to the DC 10 and L1011.

That is not low cost, that is a normal improvement with a new generation of airplanes which is necessary due to the rizing costs!

Both are too big to be operated from smaller airports point to point with a low number of pax.

You will instead find both on the big hubs, where they will fly HUB TO POINT flights.That is their job !!!

Johnny  Smile
 
Electech6299
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Air pressure and humidity improvements are not expected to make travelling a real new experience for travellers or airlines.

Not necessarily a real "new" experience, but quite possibly a more comfortable one. Being that this is my major occupational focus, I am very ancy to line up to compare winter midwest flights on the '87 with any other type, A or B. I also suspect, if ergonomics are at least as good or better than other types, the FA's will be lining up to fly this bird, and HR might even see a reduction in sick days if these systems work out as hoped. (A lot of "if"s, but not exactly inconsequential stuff- a first shouldn't be overlooked)

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Point to point travel and hub oriented operations will likely both continue to develop as they have been for the last 10-15 years....I cannot see how the Boeing 787 will influence this over existing types.

That has been explained enough by the payload/range responses. Strike 2.

Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 12):
I'm just saying that give the 787 some time and I think that it will be a great addition not only to the airlines that choose to use it, but it will be one of those airplanes that will be around for ages!!!

Agree and disagree. I see the 787 as the forerunner of a new generation of aircraft- combining several new technologies in the first model (next gen engines, carbon-fiber, new cabin design). History has not been kind to first models, generally speaking. The technologies being developed and implemented here will continue to be refined, and unless air travel economics slows tremendously (I don't see why it would) I expect the 787 to be outdated before 5 years of service. Maybe by new technology, maybe by improvements too difficult to economically retrofit, maybe by an improved A350...Who knows. But the technology is changing so rapidly that I don't foresee a 20+year reign of anything (a-la 747) in the next few decades. Just my  twocents 

I see a great airplane and a prototype of the next generation, and I can't wait to fly it. I'll let the A or B enthusiasts and neo-historians (or pre-historians) debate the "game-changer" issue, and form my opinion of whether it was a game-changer by the real historians. (probably my kids...)

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 13):
Aren't psychotropic medications...

Now, now, let's be nice here...  Wink
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
airbazar
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:14 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 3):
Ok, let me take this... Remember late 1970s? Bunch of DC-10s, L-1101s and 747s flying over the Atlantic? Remember when 767-200ER came out and opened a whole bunch of new city pairs with added frequency?

To 4 US carriers and little more. With very few exceptions (AC), the rest of the World still prefers the A340/777/747 across the Atlantic. The 767 was not a game changer in the way the 707 or a 747 were. Not even close. In fact, outside of N.America you won't find may large operators of 767's (JL).
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:15 am

hub to point is what we have now...... with 6,000 miles of range tops on an A330 or 767, they fly hub to point. In markets like the pacific, we might start seeing flights like say, vancouver to auckland or manilla directly, things of that sort, instead of having to fly through lax. previously in the pacific, you flew hub to hub, because the only jets that flew that were big. this can start to change that. will it be "small airports" - no, but it will end mega-hub to point and hub to hub, which is the norm now. it's more that it has 8,000+ mile range in a smaller package, and it's more for transpac than transatl
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:15 am

Lemme see.

Airbus first thought the 787 was a Chinese copy of the 330.

Then Airbus found out by just slapping on the 787 engines on the 330 was not good enough.

Then Airbus had to redo the wing using composites and use other advance materials to reduce the aircraft weight plus various other improvements. Airbus called it the 350.

The 350 got closer to the 787 but still quite couldn't close the gap.

When Boeing can design an aircraft which can't be fully matched by the competition, especially when the competition has two more years to work on their response, it means the 787 is helluva design.

Not a gamechanger? The 787 has allowed Boeing to reclaim the lead in the widebody game. It's a gamechanger alright.
 
Cruiser
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 32):
the rest of the World still prefers the A340/777/747 across the Atlantic.

That explains why the 767 is the plane that is most used for crossing the pond today....rrrrriigghhtt!  

James

[Edited 2006-03-18 03:18:21]
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:31 am

I'm not sure why an A380 is considered a "game changer" when all it does is carry more people more cheaply.

Exactly what the 747 series has done for over three decades.

Sure, the A380 will carry more people, so it in theory should carry them more cheaply, but if this is true, then the 747-8I should also be a "game changer" because it will do exactly the same thing when compared against the 747-400 and smaller planes too.

The 787 will carry the same number of people a great deal cheaper, in theory, and so will the A350. So if the A380 gets the "honorific", then the 787 sure as heck should (as should the A350), and so should the 747-8I.
 
OlegShv
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 32):
To 4 US carriers and little more. With very few exceptions (AC), the rest of the World still prefers the A340/777/747 across the Atlantic. The 767 was not a game changer in the way the 707 or a 747 were. Not even close. In fact, outside of N.America you won't find may large operators of 767's (JL).

Gee... I wonder why it was called the Atlantic Cruiser...  Yeah sure
 
khobar
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:23 pm

Quoting CptGermany (Reply 27):
When I read this, the first thing that came to my mind was that Airbus has been doing this for quite a while in Toulouse for A340/330, A320, A300/310 and in Hamburg for A318/319/321. Maybe there is something else Boeing is doing differently. If yes, please enlighten me.

How long does final assembly of the A340/330, A320, A300/310 take? My understanding is that the Boeing assembly time for a comparable aircraft is going from about 28 days down to 3. Airbus assembly lines are said to be more efficient but are they that more efficient?
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:48 pm






New Page 1






Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer


WHO CARES? 


 


 





 
thebry
Posts: 333
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:50 am

RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:04 pm

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 34):
Airbus first thought the 787 was a Chinese copy of the 330.

Then Airbus found out by just slapping on the 787 engines on the 330 was not good enough.

Then Airbus had to redo the wing using composites and use other advance materials to reduce the aircraft weight plus various other improvements. Airbus called it the 350.

The 350 got closer to the 787 but still quite couldn't close the gap.

When Boeing can design an aircraft which can't be fully matched by the competition, especially when the competition has two more years to work on their response, it means the 787 is helluva design.

Not a gamechanger? The 787 has allowed Boeing to reclaim the lead in the widebody game. It's a gamechanger alright.

Bravo!
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:36 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 31):
To 4 US carriers and little more

And tell me, how many 767s do US carriers use? This is like saying that Boeing shouldnt care about WN cause theyre only an LCC. Those 767 carry more passengers transatlantic per day than the others combined.

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 33):

Goddamn! What a great response.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:14 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
I think the decision to make the fuselage somewhat wider than that of Airbus might turn out to be the shot into the own foot.

Why? It makes the 787 more attractive to the airlines who wish to configure it with 9 across and after all, they are the ones who buy airplanes, not passengers.

Nine across in a 787 will be uncomfortable.
Nine across in an A350 it will be torture!
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:29 pm

My take is that the 787 is evolutionary rather than revolutionary. As a plane itself, it isn't bringing any huge scale changes on the order of the Comet, Concorde or 747.

However there are some huge changes going on in parts of the plane. The engines are a new way of thinking about harnessing energy. Large electrical generators instead of bleed air is a big deal. Increased compression ratio is just an evolution to increase efficiency.

Composites aren't new. The A380 is being built of a similar composite to what the 787 will be. However the A380 uses glass fibers and the 787 will use carbon fibers in the composites. Fundamentally the differences are small, but in practicality the weight advantage of carbon fiber is huge.

So while some nice changes are happening with the 787, it isn't really a revolution. It is just an evolution as old designs are being modified. It isn't radical, but who says that only a radical design can be a success? The best selling jet is the 737, which isn't particularly revolutionary any more, but still it is a huge success with each new iteration.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
777ER
Crew
Posts: 9853
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RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:56 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 18):
If the A380 would be a Boeing,than it would be great for these a.net users.If the B787 would be an Airbus, it would be an airplane with lots of uncertainties ( composites etc...)

And if the B787 was an Airbus then all the Airbus lovers would be jumping for joy, and Keesje wouldn't have started this thread

The B787 is a game changer due to all the stuff boeing is going to use on/in it and it even made Airbus challange it with the A350.......so the B787 is a gamee changer.

If some people think the B787 is over hyped then the A380 is also over hyped, due to all the amazing things Airbus are saying about it
 
boeing767-300
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 11:23 pm

RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:21 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 43):
And if the B787 was an Airbus then all the Airbus lovers would be jumping for joy, and Keesje wouldn't have started this thread

You are dead right about that.. checkmark 

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 33):
Lemme see.

Airbus first thought the 787 was a Chinese copy of the 330.

Then Airbus found out by just slapping on the 787 engines on the 330 was not good enough.

Then Airbus had to redo the wing using composites and use other advance materials to reduce the aircraft weight plus various other improvements. Airbus called it the 350.

The 350 got closer to the 787 but still quite couldn't close the gap.

When Boeing can design an aircraft which can't be fully matched by the competition, especially when the competition has two more years to work on their response, it means the 787 is helluva design.

Not a gamechanger? The 787 has allowed Boeing to reclaim the lead in the widebody game. It's a gamechanger alright.

Dynkrisolo... I could not put this better my but further to the above I would say the Airbus cheerleaders on this forum are still stunned and cannot accept the turnaround in widebody performance.

I can hardly believe it myself. Goodness it was not that long ago that the A346 was first being flown and the 777X response was already being proclaimed to not being able or as efficient as the A346. Well how times change not only did 777X out perform A34X it absolutely slaughtered it.

I can understand the A cheerleaders struggling with this as it was an incredible turn around thats for sure and the market has clearly stated its preference.

Now in a very short space of time we have had A346 now HGW and now the planned A346E. Don't forget the Trent 500 was designed for A346 and they are talking a whole new engine for A346. I don't think I have seen anything become so obsolete so quick, is it so unbelievable that Boeing and GE could get it so right!!

Back to the topic if the composites that make up the 787 give a significant weight advantage over A350 then it will have huge operating cost benefits over A350 and given the ability to go 9 across (Airlines buy planes not passengers) then 787 will leave A350 behind and force Airbus into an A350E to catch up- then my friends that makes the 787 'game changing'... period.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:43 pm

Thanks for the Airbus P.R release of the day Keesje. Suprisingly I agree with your point that the 787 is not a game changer. In fact, it simply is the most optimal version of the 767 which did change the game. The fact that Airbus fans refused to put that plane on there, and put a plane like the A380 on the list reflects once again why Airbus is getting stomped right now in the wide body market. The 767/777 as well as Airbus's response, the A330/340 family have brough massive fragmentation to the atlantic markets. If there is a single factor outside of de-regulation that killed TWA and Pan Am, I think you have to conclude the the ability to fly and compete on atlantic routes without having to fill up a 747 was it.

The 787 will make it possible to fly longer routes more economically. As it does that large entrenched carriers that depend on hub monopolies to survive will be challanged.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:50 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 45):
The 787 will make it possible to fly longer routes more economically

Or shorter routes with more payload
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:32 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Range capabilities
The B787 offers no significant range capabilities over existing aircraft. Long flights are already flown by similar sized aircraft e.g. CDG-NRT and PHX-NRT by A330s. Routes even further are flown today by 200-250 seat A345s and 772LR´s, but don´t make up a significant part of air travel. Optimal aircraft utilization, limited demand and cost/frequency advantages of hubs play a role.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
I doubt very much 787´s will be used this way. A think more the <14 hour flights that are 95% of the flights now flown by 767s, a330 / 340/777´s.

You might be interested in seeing the 767 & 77 range/flt. frequency breakdown...


Range (st-miles) : Freq/week (Mar. 13-19 2006)

767
100 - 199 : 113
200 - 299 : 219
300 - 399 : 131
400 - 499 : 170
500 - 599 : 282
600 - 699 : 238
700 - 799 : 214
800 - 899 : 73
900 - 999 : 57
1000 - 1099 : 36
1100 - 1199 : 124
1200 - 1299 : 65
1300 - 1399 : 66
1400 - 1499 : 34
1500 - 1599 : 227
1600 - 1699 : 90
1700 - 1799 : 36
1800 - 1899 : 42
1900 - 1999 : 12
2000 - 2099 : 90
2100 - 2199 : 14
2200 - 2299 : 66
2300 - 2399 : 40
2400 - 2499 : 32
2500 - 2599 : 14
2600 - 2699 : 44
2700 - 2799 : 54
2800 - 2899 : 18
2900 - 2999 : 28
3000 - 3099 : 23
3100 - 3199 : 30
3200 - 3299 : 16
3300 - 3399 : 54
3500 - 3599 : 16
3600 - 3699 : 40
3700 - 3799 : 30
3800 - 3899 : 26
3900 - 3999 : 32
4000 - 4099 : 28
4100 - 4199 : 34
4200 - 4299 : 20
4300 - 4399 : 10
4400 - 4499 : 14
4500 - 4599 : 24
4600 - 4699 : 6
4800 - 4899 : 16
4900 - 4999 : 18
5000 - 5099 : 25
5100 - 5199 : 5
5200 - 5299 : 4
5300 - 5399 : 13
5400 - 5499 : 1
5700 - 5799 : 14

777
0 - 99 : 14
100 - 199 : 30
200 - 299 : 109
300 - 399 : 20
400 - 499 : 46
500 - 599 : 366
600 - 699 : 30
700 - 799 : 195
800 - 899 : 141
900 - 999 : 49
1000 - 1099 : 54
1100 - 1199 : 118
1200 - 1299 : 69
1300 - 1399 : 61
1400 - 1499 : 22
1500 - 1599 : 17
1600 - 1699 : 51
1700 - 1799 : 10
1800 - 1899 : 16
1900 - 1999 : 28
2000 - 2099 : 18
2100 - 2199 : 6
2200 - 2299 : 44
2300 - 2399 : 16
2400 - 2499 : 28
2500 - 2599 : 6
2600 - 2699 : 4
2900 - 2999 : 64
3000 - 3099 : 5
3100 - 3199 : 20
3200 - 3299 : 88
3300 - 3399 : 38
3400 - 3499 : 230
3500 - 3599 : 49
3600 - 3699 : 83
3700 - 3799 : 15
3800 - 3899 : 42
3900 - 3999 : 181
4000 - 4099 : 14
4100 - 4199 : 82
4200 - 4299 : 85
4300 - 4399 : 44
4400 - 4499 : 70
4500 - 4599 : 30
4600 - 4699 : 32
4700 - 4799 : 62
4800 - 4899 : 62
4900 - 4999 : 14
5000 - 5099 : 42
5100 - 5199 : 48
5200 - 5299 : 20
5300 - 5399 : 42
5400 - 5499 : 70
5500 - 5599 : 12
5600 - 5699 : 24
5700 - 5799 : 56
5800 - 5899 : 34
5900 - 5999 : 6
6000 - 6099 : 46
6100 - 6199 : 14
6200 - 6299 : 28
6300 - 6399 : 4
6400 - 6499 : 26
6500 - 6599 : 20
6600 - 6699 : 28
6700 - 6799 : 84
6800 - 6899 : 28
7000 - 7099 : 14
7300 - 7399 : 14
7500 - 7599 : 14
8000 - 8099 : 12
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Tifoso
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:52 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 18):
The B787 is overhyped and lots Airliners.net user trust in the figures Boeing is providing and like it.

Great. Tell that to the close to 30 airlines that have 298 Dreamliners on firm order, with another 88 pending. Big grin

Remind them to talk to Airbus and Boeing before buying a aircraft as opposed to reading A.net  Wink  tongue 

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 23):
It won't magically make all operators profitable or change the way we travel.

Which aircraft can do that?  sarcastic  There are other ways in which an irresponsible airline can squander their money.

Quoting CptGermany (Reply 27):
When I read this, the first thing that came to my mind was that Airbus has been doing this for quite a while in Toulouse for A340/330, A320, A300/310 and in Hamburg for A318/319/321. Maybe there is something else Boeing is doing differently. If yes, please enlighten me.

The entire assembly will be done in 3 days. This is a huge improvement over the 20-25 days it takes now.
 
A319XFW
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:41 am

RE: Boeing 787: Great Aircraft, Not A Game Changer

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:00 pm

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 48):
The entire assembly will be done in 3 days. This is a huge improvement over the 20-25 days it takes now.

Does anyone know what is quantified in "Assembly"?
For instance does that include function tests, cabin installation and so on?
Or is that just fuselage/VTP/HTP, wing and landing gear join-up?

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