Horus
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Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:56 am

As the Egyptian national carrier, Egyptair, continues on its expansion, modernisation and overhaul program, Chairman Atef Abdelhamid has indicated he would like to see his airline join Star Alliance. Early talks have already began with one of Star Alliance's founding members, Lufthansa. In preparation for the move, MS has already opted to upgrade its computer systems. Egyptair hope to join the alliance within the next 24 months.

Egyptair will become the second African member to join the largest global airline alliance (after SA) and the first Middle Eastern member. This comes comes soon after Royal Jordanian announce they are to join OneWorld and MEA's plans to become an associate member of Skyteam.

The airline already has strong links to several alliance members.
OS: In June 2004 an extensive agreement with Austrian was signed including code sharing on both carriers' services between VIE and Egypt and OS's VIE-Scandinavia services.
LH: In February 2006 they signed an agreement with the technical consultancy arm of Lufthansa to promote and upgrade the operation of Egyptair Cargo.
TG: Last year they agreed with Thai to increase co-operation on MS's CAI-BKK service.
RG: a basic co-operation agreement is expected between MS and Varig.
SQ: In October 2004 they agreed with Singapore Airlines that the latter would be their partner in transporting passengers to and from Australia.

As the first Middle Eastern airline in the group, the alliance's network would expand to include SSH, LXR, ASW, ABS, HRG, ATZ (Egypt), ALP (Syria), AAN, SHJ (UAE), EBB (Uganda) and KAN (Nigeria) as well as providing greater frequency and flexability in the fast expanding Middle Eastern market.

Egyptair embarked on a huge shake up in April 2004 to improve and enhance their service, operations and profitability and this is still ongoing. This included terminating unprofitable routes in 2004, modernising and expanding the fleet, increasing frequency on prime routes and improving on board services. Two weeks ago the airline received the final of 7 A330-200s and starting this September they will recieve the first of 12 B737-800s. The airline has plans to double their fleet by 2010 with the acquisition of new narrow and widebody aircraft. Earlier this month the Minister of Civil Aviation announced plans to part privatise the airline by selling off a 20% stake to the public sector. Also it's subsidiary, Air Cairo, will acquire 4 ATRs this summer and 4 A320s from September to enhance services on domestic, selected regional routes and charter market. Finally the ongoing expansion of Cairo International Airport (CAI) including the opening of Terminal 3 in 2007, the addition of a third runway and the construction of a new cargo facility and control tower will provide the airline with a modern, state of the art hub offering passengers and airlines alike a superior airport facility.



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Horus
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:23 pm

A great plan and vision, but EgyptAir will have to do more in improving its customer service to levels offered by Star Alliance members.

It will also have to re-think its networking and scheduling strategy, and rationalize its fragmented flight schedules to develop a real hub in Cairo.

The concept of a hub in Cairo is still vague (in the sense that Cairo is not associated with the hub concept to most frequent business travelers) and its image is not as favorable as Dubai, Bahrain or even Beirut.

A lot has been achieved though with the new air terminal and efforts to reposition Cairo on a regional level. Good luck to MS!

[Edited 2006-03-18 07:30:27]
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:51 pm

I keep hearing from my colleagues in CAI that MS has indeed improved a lot, and the new thinking starts from the top. I can't really judge from my single experience with them, but found them OK. Nothing that can't be overcome.
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:58 pm

If this does go through will the affect QR's chances on joining?

YOWza
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:02 pm

Good news for Egyptair .By the way it would be a nice beginning for north African airlines in the alliance concept.
Mabrouk Egyptair
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orlando666
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:47 pm

Thought Royal Air Maroc Group would be a better contender (service, network, west african strength). Egypt Air has certainly improved however it is still not a "world class" airline from passenger service standpoint. And lets not forget the domestic routes/destinations in Egypt which are terrible. Star Alliance will surely add these to its global-reach, but service is not star alliance standard.
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:53 pm

..not to forget that Egypt-Air is still a "dry" airline,which is not neccessarily appreciated by passengers paying C or F class tickets...
Catering in general has improved but is still quite far from airline-meals offered by other Gulf-Airlines or asian carriers.
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:10 pm

I travelled by MS in February and had no problems with the service either Economy or Business, (I do not see why being dry is a major issue).

However the airports in Egypt are "interesting". HBE is like a time warp from the 1950's.

I was also somewhat puzzled by something that I saw at CAI terminal 1. We arrived at 0400 and on going to the toilets, I found a man trying to wash his feet in the sink. I understand that Muslims need to wash their feet before praying and that 88% of Egyptians are Muslim, would it not make sense to provide something like a Bidet for washing feet. Just a thought.
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 7):
HBE is like a time warp from the 1950's

You probably mean ALY. They could use it for a remake of Casablanca.
HBE has a fairly new (10 years?) pre-fab terminal, and plans for a whole new terminal. I just don't understand why ALY is still open, the market is too small for two airports. It's close to the city, but aircraft size is limited to A320 and all check-in is still manual...
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:30 pm

Sorry, Bourg El Arab.
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 1):
It will also have to re-think its networking and scheduling strategy, and rationalize its fragmented flight schedules to develop a real hub in Cairo.

Very true. Have you ever tried to read an Egyptair timetable? It's like somebody just randomly shouted out departure times and days and Egyptair assigned them to flights. A flight from Cairo to Rome will leave at 10:30am on Monday (with an A320), 8:15pm on Tuesday (with a 737), 3:25pm on Wednesday (777 this time), 2:15am on Thursday ("equipment varies") and then doesn't operate on Fridays. And then in the front of the timetable is a "stop press" note telling you that "Rome service suspended from 21Jan-3Feb." That's not a real example, but I always come away from an MS timetable with a headache.

It's going to be really hard for Star Alliance to design connections via CAI unless Egyptair decide to operate flights at consistent times.

That being said, I don't doubt that their onboard service has improved dramatically. CAI's Terminal 1 has been renovated extensively, and the new Terminal 3 should be coming online in a few years. Plus their fleet is newer and more modern than most US airlines. If they could just do something about their bizarre schedule, they'd be a shoo-in for an alliance.
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 3):


If this does go through will the affect QR's chances on joining?

The networks of EgyptAir and Qatar are not nearly as overlapping as LH/SK/OS/LO/LX so I can't imagine that it would.
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AC787
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:49 am

Hopefully Egypt Air would improve its website to a higher standard to improve there chances  Smile . There website is painful to say the least. Anyways, Egypt Air joining the star alliance would be awseome, yet another airline i would be able to take back home and redeem aeroplan miles. Egypt Air joining the alliance would probably push Air Canada into flying the yyz-cai route which would be perfect.
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 1):
A great plan and vision, but EgyptAir will have to do more in improving its customer service to levels offered by Star Alliance members.

Work on improving customer service started in 2004 and is still ongoing. More work still needs to be done and the airline has 2 years to get things into gear.

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 1):
It will also have to re-think its networking and scheduling strategy, and rationalize its fragmented flight schedules to develop a real hub in Cairo.

I don't agree with this point. In 2004 the airline rationalised their route network and scheduling to improve operations. The US airline consultant company SABRE helped Egyptair reorganise its network to provide optimum conditions for the fleet and to improve methods of managing revenues and price marketing system. After SABRE recommended suspending 12 international routes and three domestic destinations, Egyptair acted promptly. Before April 2004, MS's timetable was similar to RB's with strange routings, few frequencies and an inconsistant schedule but that is very different today. Now destinations are served with greater frequency with a uniform timetable attracting more passengers than anytime in the airline's history.

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 1):
The concept of a hub in Cairo is still vague (in the sense that Cairo is not associated with the hub concept to most frequent business travelers) and its image is not as favorable as Dubai, Bahrain or even Beirut.

The hub concept will come into force next year when T3 opens giving the airline an efficient hub, but scheduling changes are already taking place to allow for better transit times including destinations like SAH, EBB, ASM and JNB which see a large number of transit passengers from Europe. In addition the arrival of the new Minister of Civil Aviation, Ahmed Shafik, resulted in CAC embarking on a major overhaul of CAI including the renovation of Terminal 1, opening Arrival Hall 3 and the contruction of a new VIP terminal following years of neglect at the airport. FRAPORT (who have been running CAI since last year) and CAC have since done a lot of work to improve and promote CAI as an efficient airport.

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 1):
A lot has been achieved though with the new air terminal and efforts to reposition Cairo on a regional level. Good luck to MS!

This is very true and MS need to market this very fact even more.

Quoting Fly-K (Reply 2):
I keep hearing from my colleagues in CAI that MS has indeed improved a lot, and the new thinking starts from the top.

The Egyptair of 2000 is very different to that of today. When ex Chairman Fahim Rayan was removed in June 2002 he was replaced with Atef AbdelHamid who brought with him a 'revolutionary' plan for MS after 20 years of almost stagnation. He began by turning the airline group into a holding company with
seven subsidiaries each operating as a separate business to improve accountability. The overhaul programme started in 2004 and is ongoing and with more time, the benefits will become more apparent.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 3):
If this does go through will the affect QR's chances on joining?

Even though QR is a Middle Eastern airline their market significantly differs to that of MS with greater emphasis on the Asian market.

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 4):
Good news for Egyptair .By the way it would be a nice beginning for north African airlines in the alliance concept.
Mabrouk Egyptair

Cheers Alex. It really is a step in the right direction. MS has made strides in the last 2 years and I just hope people realise this rather than judge it on the past. Having said that MS needs to do more to market its new self.

Quoting Orlando666 (Reply 5):
Egypt Air has certainly improved however it is still not a "world class" airline from passenger service standpoint. And lets not forget the domestic routes/destinations in Egypt which are terrible. Star Alliance will surely add these to its global-reach, but service is not star alliance standard.

As stated already MS has another 24 months to improve its operations to meet the alliance's standards. And how exactly is MS's domestic network "terrible"? The airline serves 7 destinations all with muliple daily flights (with exception of ATZ). The flight times average under an hour yet a snack/meal service is offered for free.

Here are a few domestic Egyptair trip reports. I'd give them a read: Egyptair CAI-SSH-CAI A330 In Horus Class (+pics) (by Horus Mar 7 2006 in Trip Reports) Egyptair Domestic: Cairo-Aswan (+pics) (by Contact Air Mar 4 2006 in Trip Reports)
In addition ask NYCFlyer and Bennett123 (see reply 7) who recently tried MS's domestic product.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):
Catering in general has improved but is still quite far from airline-meals offered by other Gulf-Airlines or asian carriers.

Egyptair's catering unit is currently out to tender with 3 firms interested in taking a stake. Compass Group, Gate Gourmet International AG, and Alpha Airports Group are considering bids for a 40 per cent stake in the catering unit. "We want a partner to raise the company's capital so we can expand and upgrade the catering service," said Mahmoud El Bassiony, a spokesman for Egyptair. The sell out was expecedt last October but has been delayed to September 2006.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 7):
However the airports in Egypt are "interesting"

CAI: T3 opens June 2007. In last 2 years T1 was renovated, a VIP terminal opened in 2005, a new control tower, third runway and a cargo village will open before 2008.
LXR: a the new terminal was opened last year.
SSH: a 2nd terminal called Terminal 1 opens in June 2007. The original terminal was renovated in 2004.
HRG: a second terminal is planned.
HBE: a second terminal is planned.
ALY: will close in 2009 and all traffic will be diverted to HBE.
RMF: Marsa Alam Airport is running succesfully.
ALM: traffic at El-Alamein airport (opened 2005) is picking up
ASW/ABU: upgrade work is expected in these airports in 2008.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 7):
I was also somewhat puzzled by something that I saw at CAI terminal 1. We arrived at 0400 and on going to the toilets, I found a man trying to wash his feet in the sink. I understand that Muslims need to wash their feet before praying and that 88% of Egyptians are Muslim, would it not make sense to provide something like a Bidet for washing feet. Just a thought.

A separate 'ablution area' is being constructed in T3. Your worries are well-founded and are apparent during the Hajj period when Muslims are required to wash up before embarking on their journey to Saudi Arabia (usually at the airport).

Quoting Fly-K (Reply 8):
I just don't understand why ALY is still open, the market is too small for two airports. It's close to the city, but aircraft size is limited to A320 and all check-in is still manual...

ALY still remains an attractive option when serving Alexandria when compared to HBE due to it's location. This was evident last year when all the new airlines started services to ALY rather than HBE (with the exception of EK but there was no choice there since A310 they use is too large for ALY). Despite HBE's better facilities it's distance from the city centre and lack of transport links has until now kept it from being Alexandria's prime and sole airport. This article is a good read.


Back to the main topic. Egyptair has gone through many significant changes in the last 2 years and still continues to do so. It's ultimate aim is to provide passengers with an excellent and reliable service, offering them greater choice from their CAI hub whilst operating profitability. Yes their past image was not the best and may overshadow a traveller's perception (evident by some posts in this thread) which is why they need to do even more to promote themselves and the new changes. Their new frequent flier program, Egyptair Plus, was launched in 2002 and according to CEO Sherif Galal in 2005 73% of MS's passengers were members which is a testament to the improvements at the airline. The talks with Star Alliance are proof that the airline is serious about becoming a world class carrier.

Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 10):
Very true. Have you ever tried to read an Egyptair timetable? It's like somebody just randomly shouted out departure times and days and Egyptair assigned them to flights. A flight from Cairo to Rome will leave at 10:30am on Monday (with an A320), 8:15pm on Tuesday (with a 737), 3:25pm on Wednesday (777 this time), 2:15am on Thursday ("equipment varies") and then doesn't operate on Fridays. And then in the front of the timetable is a "stop press" note telling you that "Rome service suspended from 21Jan-3Feb." That's not a real example, but I always come away from an MS timetable with a headache. It's going to be really hard for Star Alliance to design connections via CAI unless Egyptair decide to operate flights at consistent times.

Jsnww81, I have no idea where you're getting your information. Let's take the example you used CAI-FCO. This season 3 flights depart at 11:00, 2 at 11:10 and 1 at 10:10 operated with A32Xs/B735s. This is not as random as you make it sound. And like I stated this is an ongoing process and with the start of the summer timetable CAI-FCO is made consistent with 5x weekly flights departing CAI at 11:00. The timings of the other 2 flights varies simply because one routes via LXR and the other HRG. And I agree the "stop press" notes need to be sorted out. These occur during the Hajj period when aircraft capacity is diverted to JED. I disagree with this but as the airline is currently government owned it sees it as a responsibility to transfer its own pilgrims. However things changed this year when the airline wet leased a Monarch AB6 during the Hajj season so not to impact it's normal schedule by diverting aircraft away.

As I previously said this issue of scheduling was addressed in 2004 with Sabre and there has been significant improvements. But as with the example I used with FCO, things are still being improved.



Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 10):
That being said, I don't doubt that their onboard service has improved dramatically. CAI's Terminal 1 has been renovated extensively, and the new Terminal 3 should be coming online in a few years. Plus their fleet is newer and more modern than most US airlines. If they could just do something about their bizarre schedule, they'd be a shoo-in for an alliance.

Expect to see more changes in the next 24 months. When they do enter the alliance, I'd hope US and UA start flights to CAI....

Quoting AC787 (Reply 12):
Hopefully Egypt Air would improve its website to a higher standard to improve there chances Smile . There website is painful to say the least. Anyways, Egypt Air joining the star alliance would be awseome, yet another airline i would be able to take back home and redeem aeroplan miles. Egypt Air joining the alliance would probably push Air Canada into flying the yyz-cai route which would be perfect.

I have to agree their website really is a shamble. But again this is being addressed. In their November/December 2005 inflight magazine Chairman Atef Abdel-Hamid stated that they were 'working with IBM to launch an enhanced website'. With IATA pushing for all electronic tickets by next year, Egyptair cannot put online booking on hold for much longer or they will loose passengers. And since an airline's website is usually a passenger's first point of call when looking for information about an airline, it is a crucial step MS need to take.


Horus
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:12 am

I will be flamed for this but I am not impressed with Egyptairs safety culture. Even if I forget about the 1960s-70s incidents... If they'd only openheartedly admit their 767 pilot committed suicide and they will do everything to check mental stability of crews it would be a major leap forwards.
OK things can happen once or twice but Egyptair had other unconvincing incidents like the 737 in Tunisia. Will Star Alliance help Egyptairs safety culture (like Korean and China Airlines who got outside help to successfully improve safety to get accepted in codeshares and alliances) or did they improve it already?
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MSYYZ
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:22 am

Good news indeed . It is interesting how things develop rapidly at Egypt Air , just few weeks ago the Egyptian Minister of Aviation " signaled " that the Airline will be looking at joining a major Alliance , and he also "signaled "that The Airline may be looking at selling 20% of its shares to the public Egyptair To Expand And To Go Partly Public.. (by MSYYZ Feb 23 2006 in Civil Aviation)
And now , it seems that these "signals" are in the works . In the past , It used to take years at MS to make a decision

Quoting Horus (Thread starter):
The airline already has strong links to several alliance members.

They also have an agreement with Air Canada ( a star Alliance member ) to transport Pax between YYZ-YUL to connect with MS flight from YUL to CAI in the summer ( June to October ) .

Quoting Horus (Thread starter):
Egyptair embarked on a huge shake up in April 2004 to improve and enhance their service, operations and profitability and this is still ongoing. This included terminating unprofitable routes in 2004, modernising and expanding the fleet,

With the arrival of the 7 A332's and the expected arrival of the 12 B738's Egypt Air fleet would have an average age of 6.2 years . This average is expected to decrease if they go ahead with the much anticipated order of 7 more A332's .

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 1):
It will also have to re-think its networking and scheduling strategy, and rationalize its fragmented flight schedules to develop a real hub in Cairo.

All these improvements will become possible once they open the new modern Terminal 3 in Cairo which will be Egypt Air's hub , and the arrival of 12 B738's starting Sep/2006 .

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 1):
The concept of a hub in Cairo is still vague (in the sense that Cairo is not associated with the hub concept to most frequent business travelers) and its image is not as favorable as Dubai, Bahrain or even Beirut.

That's the image Egypt Air and the Egyptian Civil Aviation Authorities want to change and compete with the other regional Hubs in the M/E . The facilities in the new T3 will be much better than the exisiting 2 Terminals with a better Transit services .

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 4):
Mabrouk Egyptair

 Smile .

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):
not to forget that Egypt-Air is still a "dry" airline

Monsieur Beaucaire , comment ca va  Smile ? I don't see anything wrong with being a "dry" Airline , a lot of very good Airlines that are known for their excellent service are " dry " like Malaysian and Royal Brunei .
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting MSYYZ (Reply 15):
Monsieur Beaucaire , comment ca va ? I don't see anything wrong with being a "dry" Airline , a lot of very good Airlines that are known for their excellent service are " dry " like Malaysian and Royal Brunei .

Monsieur Beaucaire va bien - merci !
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Joke aside -there is fundamentally nothing wrong with spending some hours in a plane without alcohol - correct ! But from a competetive point of view many high-yield passengers would prefer-could they choose- to have a menue with some wine...it simply tasts better to the spoilt,anglo-saxon-european-mediterranean boozers..
By the way-Malaysian is only dry on domestic...
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 16):
By the way-Malaysian is only dry on domestic...

Merci pour l'information , a+ .
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting Horus (Reply 13):
The hub concept will come into force next year when T3 opens giving the airline an efficient hub, but scheduling changes are already taking place to allow for better transit times including destinations like SAH, EBB, ASM and JNB which see a large number of transit passengers from Europe.

Please forgive my ignorance, but since when has CAI been an airport which see a large number of transit pax from Europe to JNB? We currently see 2x weekly MS (A330) services between JNB-CAI. How does that equate to a large number of transit pax? Even if they build a new "hub", MS has never been a real "force" at JNB. The only Middle-Eastern carrier that takes huge numbers of pax in-and out of JNB at this stage, is EK with their 2x daily services between JNB-DXB. They have the cheapest fares to basically anywhere in the world, be it Australia, the Far-or Near East or Europe.

Please don't take offence, I am just really curious about this statement.


Rgds

SA7700
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orlando666
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:31 am

domestic egypt air flights are of VERY inconsitant and poor quality. You could get an A330 or a chartered russian aircraft for flights to Luxor (and thats the "trunk" domestic route, my experiences on several other domestic flights in egypt have not been positive from a reliability, quality, service (land and air side).
 
nycflyer
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting Horus (Reply 13):
In addition ask NYCFlyer and Bennett123 (see reply 7) who recently tried MS's domestic product.

Ask, and you shall receive. The domestic product is pretty good, with the glaring exception of the two (I think) 735s in their fleet. Maybe they're gone now, I was in Egypt nine months ago, but they are old and creaky, not painted in MS colors, and generally leave a poor impression. However, there is more free food and drink served on hour-long domestic flights than you ever get in the U.S.

The renovations to CAI's T1 are v/good, and hopefully T3 will be great. T2 still needs a lot of work, but I'm sure they'll get to that next. However, my big complaint would be the T1 domestic terminal, which pretty much has one (Horus, correct me here) gate and one (maybe two) seating areas, a small food and drinks counter that serves mostly chips and candy, all of which are very inadequate.

I only saw two domestic airports, LXR and ASW. LXR is one of the most modern and attractive small airports I've ever seen. Outstanding job there. ASW is a little old, but it's fine, there is certainly not a capacity problem there.

General thoughts: I agree with others above that CAI has a ways to go to bring on the concept of the hub. I did get the sense that flights left at very odd times of day, often inconsistent. It just did not "feel" like a hub airport, hard to put my finger on it. Maybe just coincidence, but I never actually met anyone who had connected through CAI. It felt like a big series of o/d flights.

That's pretty much it. The airline def needs to get its sh*t together a little more, but like Turkey making internal reforms to join the EU, the prospect of joining STAR will only drive more positive change for MS.
 
Horus
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 14):
I will be flamed for this but I am not impressed with Egyptairs safety culture

This was one of the main reasons ex-Chairman Fahim Rayan has 'relieved' from his post in 2002 following the B735 crash in TUN. It was the final straw and illustrated that accidents, even minor ones, would not be brushed under the carpet. Since then MS have had to improve and this included the construction of one the largest maintenence facilites in the Middle East in 2002. And following the airline's change to a holding company, EgyptAir Maintenance & Engineering Company, became much more accountable for its actions and has formed closer links with such companies as Rolls Royce, Goodrich-Messier, etc. If you have access to http://www.icpcredit.com, you can check reports regarding the company.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 14):
If they'd only openheartedly admit their 767 pilot committed suicide

Why should they admit something which has not been absolutely proved. I for one do not believe it was a suicide and that other factors came into play which the Egyptian authorities highlighted but sidelined by the NTSB. Anyway this is a very different topic which I won't get into as I have discussed it too many times in the last 2 years on this site.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 14):
they will do everything to check mental stability of crews it would be a major leap forwards.

All I will say to this point, is that MS are set strict guidelines by the Egyptian authorities who in turn answer and abide by international aviation legislations and regulations.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 14):
Will Star Alliance help Egyptairs safety culture (like Korean and China Airlines who got outside help to successfully improve safety to get accepted in codeshares and alliances) or did they improve it already?

Improvements have been made and I doubt Star Alliance would consider MS if they had any doubt regarding this issue.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):
..not to forget that Egypt-Air is still a "dry" airline,which is not neccessarily appreciated by passengers paying C or F class tickets...

I don't think alcohol will be a pivotal issue if they're able to excel in other fronts.



Quoting SA7700 (Reply 18):
Please forgive my ignorance, but since when has CAI been an airport which see a large number of transit pax from Europe to JNB? We currently see 2x weekly MS (A330) services between JNB-CAI. How does that equate to a large number of transit pax? Even if they build a new "hub", MS has never been a real "force" at JNB. The only Middle-Eastern carrier that takes huge numbers of pax in-and out of JNB at this stage, is EK with their 2x daily services between JNB-DXB. They have the cheapest fares to basically anywhere in the world, be it Australia, the Far-or Near East or Europe.

Please don't take offence, I am just really curious about this statement.


SA7700 you seem to have misunderstood what I tried to say. My point was on MS's CAI-SAH/ASM/EBB/JNB services they carry a large number of inbound transit passengers from their European services. Also MS will increase their JNB flights to 3x weekly this summer:

MS939 CAI-JNB -2-4-6- 02:40/09:40 0 A330
MS940 JNB-CAI -2-4-6- 21:45/06:45 0 A330

If you look at the times these flights depart and arrive CAI, you'll see they are timed to co-ordinate with MS's arriving and departing European services even if it means the aircraft sitting on JNB's tarmac for 12 hours.

When MS join Star Alliance I can see MS increasing this service to at least daily with SA codesharing on the service.

And don't worry no offense was taken.

Quoting Orlando666 (Reply 19):
domestic egypt air flights are of VERY inconsitant and poor quality. You could get an A330 or a chartered russian aircraft for flights to Luxor (and thats the "trunk" domestic route, my experiences on several other domestic flights in egypt have not been positive from a reliability, quality, service (land and air side).

Did you just skim over my reply and the comments posted by Bennett123? Aircraft are allocated depending on demand. And what Russian jets are you referring to exactly? The only type operating in Egypt are the Tu-204s by Cairo Aviation and they have no affiliation to Egyptair. And the widebodies are being deployed on the CAI-LXR and CAI-SSH services as they are trunk routes with high passenger demand. The lack of aircraft doesn't not make it possible to add further frequencies so until new narrowbodies and turboprops (to Air Cairo) arrive A330s/B777s will be utilised on certain domestic runs. I've been flying on MS's domestic services quite regularly since 2002 and have seen first hand the improvements in both C and Y classes as well as the domestic facilities offered at local airports. If indeed you did experience these problems than they are certainly not the norm and I'm sure they were addressed. The one thing I should also mention is with the government's initiative to liberalise the Egyptian market in 2007 and allow private Egyptian airlines into the scheduled market, which will in turn put more pressure on MS to deliver an enhanced product and service to effectively compete with local/domestic competition.


Horus
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 18):
Quoting Horus (Reply 13):
The hub concept will come into force next year when T3 opens giving the airline an efficient hub, but scheduling changes are already taking place to allow for better transit times including destinations like SAH, EBB, ASM and JNB which see a large number of transit passengers from Europe.



Quoting SA7700 (Reply 18):
Please forgive my ignorance, but since when has CAI been an airport which see a large number of transit pax from Europe to JNB?

I think Horus is referring to these cities in general not JNB specifically .
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Horus (Reply 21):
SA7700 you seem to have misunderstood what I tried to say. My point was on MS's CAI-SAH/ASM/EBB/JNB services they carry a large number of inbound transit passengers from their European services. Also MS will increase their JNB flights to 3x weekly this summer:

MS939 CAI-JNB -2-4-6- 02:40/09:40 0 A330
MS940 JNB-CAI -2-4-6- 21:45/06:45 0 A330

Horus, with all due respect, I did not misunderstood what you said. Admittedly I don't know how many pax MS's A332's can carry, but according to airliners.net data, the A332 seat 256 passengers in a three class configuration, or alternatively 293 in two classes. IMMHO, even if MS introduced a third weekly service, ± 900 pax return a week between JNB-CAI is not a large number of pax, compared to SA, LH, EK, AF, BA, LX, etc. Also take into account the number of O&D pax and actual transit pax.

Most likely SA will codeshare with MS, should this application materialise, SA sure took their time.  Smile


Rgds

SA7700
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:33 am

SA7700, you're still missing the point. I was saying that a large porportion of passengers using this service are transit passengers from Europe. I did not state anywhere that these numbers were significant in the Europe-JNB market. Secondly the hub concept has not been introduced yet. This will come into effect in 2007 when T3 opens.

When are SA officially joining?


Horus
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 23):
even if MS introduced a third weekly service, ± 900 pax return a week between JNB-CAI is not a large number of pax

MS used to fly 4 times a week to JNB with extension to DUR and CPT in the late 90's .
They D/C DUR and CPT but kept JNB and decreased their frequency to twice weekly . Now JNB is seeing an increase of 1 more flight a week as Horus mentioned , which is a good sign that MS is doing fine on that route , subject to more increases when T3 opens in CAI .
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting Horus (Reply 24):
SA7700, you're still missing the point. I was saying that a large porportion of passengers using this service are transit passengers from Europe. I did not state anywhere that these numbers were significant in the Europe-JNB market. Secondly the hub concept has not been introduced yet. This will come into effect in 2007 when T3 opens.

When are SA officially joining?

Slight misunderstanding there then. I humbly apologise, Horus. SA's official Star Aliiance entry date is April 10, 2006. The new reservations-and inventory systems are installed tonight, as we speak.


Rgds

SA7700
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting MSYYZ (Reply 25):

MS used to fly 4 times a week to JNB with extension to DUR and CPT in the late 90's .
They D/C DUR and CPT but kept JNB and decreased their frequency to twice weekly . Now JNB is seeing an increase of 1 more flight a week as Horus mentioned , which is a good sign that MS is doing fine on that route , subject to more increases when T3 opens in CAI .

I am aware of that, thanks MSYYZ. We made use of MS when our chamber choir was invited to perform in the Cairo Opera House, as well as a performance in Alexandria. The return flight was via Harare.


Rgds

SA7700
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:33 am

Egypt Air joining Star Alliance will probably still take a couple of years and a lot of work to be done, last year in july I flew from MUC to HRE ( I think thats the code for Hurghada) with Egypt Air on their A321, i think the plane I flew on was delivered to the airline in 1997, but the interior was just to throw up! I have never been in such a dirty airplane! I mean I have been on every single continent in 13 years of my life exept Antarctica of course have flown many airlines, and fly about 35-40 times a year but have never been in such a discusting cabin.

Later in Flight the FA was serving a passenger in front of me a Coke, before serving the drink the can was shooken around, not knowing this she opened the can and sprayed 3/4 of the coke onto the french passenger in front of me, and im telling you he was Pissed! I went to Hurghada with my school friend, and I gave up 2 days of my holiday flying back home alone with Condor on their 757-300 and the plane was a lot cleaner than on Egypt Air.


Cheers leo
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 27):
I am aware of that, thanks MSYYZ.

SA7700 , i remember seeing South African at CAI in the 90's . Have they ever flown to CAI with their own metal ? And which type of A/C have they used ? Or may be it was a diversion ?
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:14 am

This is good news for Egyptair and Star Alliance, which has a big hole in its network, in terms of Middle East and African service. I'm sure that if MS were to join *A would set down some foundations for improving their customer service "faults" as *A calls itself, "the airline network for earth". So I'm sure any image defaults would be improved as soon as they joined. Very exciting! I've never flown MS but If they join, I might someday...
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:22 pm

Quoting MSYYZ (Reply 29):
SA7700 , i remember seeing South African at CAI in the 90's . Have they ever flown to CAI with their own metal ? And which type of A/C have they used ? Or may be it was a diversion ?

It must have been a diversion. The closest cities to CAI, on the African continent, that SA ever served was ADD. Of course ET kicked their uppity buts and SA ended up codesharing with ET (ET metal) on the JNB-ADD route. SA service to Northern Africa has notoriously been non-existant, I really don't know why.


Rgds

SA7700
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JoFMO
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:13 pm

I don't see what MS could deliver for Star.

If MS can arrange a hub in CAI they could offer some connections from Europe to the Middle East and eastern Africa. But the Middle East is already well served from Europe and East Africa has only a friction of destinations with MS compared to the likes of ET and Kenian Airlines.
From an Asian perspective MS could serve connections to South East Europe and western Africa. But even from here I see better connections with QR and ET.

And last but not least CAI in itself is already well served by the likes of LH, OS and SQ. Through their hubs most of the world is in easy reach. If the rumored entrance in Star of QR and ET comes through, Egypt will be served even better.

So all in all I don't think Star has any valuable use of MS. They should concentrate their effords on on QR and ET.
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:10 pm

Quoting Horus (Thread starter):
SQ: In October 2004 they agreed with Singapore Airlines that the latter would be their partner in transporting passengers to and from Australia.

Greetings Horus. Do you have any more information regarding this?
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:03 am

Airline Alliances are invading the Arab world.First was Royal Jordanian with One world,than came Skyteam with MEA,and now is the turn of Egyptair with Star Alliance.Good luck for all.By the way my favourite is Star Alliance!!!
Forza Egyptair
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steph001
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:00 am

Hi everyone, any word about the status of EgyptAir in StarAlliance? Will Egypt Ar be a full member, or just an auxiliary (I don't know the right term, sorry Smile) as Croatia Airlines? Any word about axing some routes before joinng the alliance?

Best wishes, Steph.
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 28):
Egypt Air joining Star Alliance will probably still take a couple of years



Quoting Horus (Thread starter):
Egyptair hope to join the alliance within the next 24 months



Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 30):
This is good news for Egyptair and Star Alliance, which has a big hole in its network, in terms of Middle East and African service. I'm sure that if MS were to join *A would set down some foundations for improving their customer service "faults" as *A calls itself, "the airline network for earth". So I'm sure any image defaults would be improved as soon as they joined. Very exciting! I've never flown MS but If they join, I might someday...

Egyptair would not apply to Star Alliance, or any other alliance, if they didn't have a serious plan to further improve their service. It will work as an incentive to enhance their product.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 32):
I don't see what MS could deliver for Star.

Egyptair will provide the alliance with a much better presence in the Middle East which is a region that has seen phenomenal passenger growth since 2000. With the restrictive nature of bilaterals in the region, Egyptair will be able to offer greater flexibility and choice to the existing services offered by the alliance's members. In addition the airline has stated that more aircraft will be ordered and deployed on their current network as well as allowing for the introduction of new destinations. This will allow the airline to offer a wider range of routes and frequencies making it more attractive as an alliance member.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 33):
Greetings Horus. Do you have any more information regarding this?

Greetings young man. When MS terminated their CAI-SIN-SYD route, GF and SQ both contested a contract with MS to handle the traffic between Egypt and Australia. SQ won. Soon after a code share and marketing agreement was signed. All the SQ billboards I've seen in Cairo seem to promote Australia and not Singapore/South East Asia.

Quoting Steph001 (Reply 35):
Hi everyone, any word about the status of EgyptAir in StarAlliance? Will Egypt Ar be a full member, or just an auxiliary (I don't know the right term, sorry Smile) as Croatia Airlines? Any word about axing some routes before joinng the alliance?

Egyptair's ultimate aim is to join the alliance within the next 2 years so we won't be seeing any firm agreements for a while. However what we will see is the continued improvements within the carrier.

I think what you meant by auxilliary is what Star Alliance refer to as 'regional member airlines' like Adria, Blue1 and Croatia Airlines.


Horus
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 28):
HRE ( I think thats the code for Hurghada)

HRE would be Harare (as a.net tells you), Hurghada is HRG.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
steph001
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting Horus (Reply 36):
I think what you meant by auxilliary is what Star Alliance refer to as 'regional member airlines' like Adria, Blue1 and Croatia Airlines.

Thanks Horus, that's exactly waht I meant. It's basically a feeder for the main members Smile.
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting Steph001 (Reply 38):
Thanks Horus, that's exactly waht I meant. It's basically a feeder for the main members Smile.

Your Welcome. Well MS would only be interested in becoming a full member due to its relatively large size and the market it serves.

Even though the airline is persuing membership to Star Alliance, I've been informed that privatisation and fleet expansion is currently taking centre stage at their HQ.

Horus
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:49 pm

Quoting Horus (Reply 36):
Greetings young man

Haha! It's been a while since i've been called that! Big grin

Quoting Horus (Reply 36):
Soon after a code share and marketing agreement was signed.

I see. Though I detect no MS codeshare on any SIA flight. Do you know what the MS flight numbers on SIA flights are and on what route?
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 40):
Haha! It's been a while since i've been called that! Big grin

Should I ask why?  Wink

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 40):

I see. Though I detect no MS codeshare on any SIA flight. Do you know what the MS flight numbers on SIA flights are and on what route?

Here's what Egyptair's timetable states:
CAI-SIN SQ427/MS9427 1-3-4-- 13:20/07:15 B773 (via DXB)
SIN-SYD SQ219/MS9219 -2-4-6- 09:40/20:15 B744
SYD-SIN SQ222/SQ9222 -2-4--7 15:40/21:55 B744
SIN-CAI SQ428/MS9248 -2-4--7 23:25/06:15 B773 (via DXB)

I'd hope that once MS join Star, SQ would eliminate the DXB stop and increase frequency....but keep the B773.

On the topic of their B773, do you know if they have plans to install the new Spacebeds seats to their B773s? Someone on this site said that since the aircraft are mainly used on regional routes the old Raffles class have been kept. But since they're used to long haul destinations like MEL, DXB, IST, CAI I was hoping it would happen soon.


Horus
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RE: Egyptair In Early Talks To Join Star Alliance

Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:16 am

Most fascinating information Horus. A secret has been unveiled. KUDOS!

There seems to be no plans for SpaceBed seating on the B773s. MEL will be replaced by a 77W service with new improved seating. Unfortunately SIA's product differentiation on different aircraft will continue.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.

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