lufthansi
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Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:52 pm

Some weeks ago I read that Airbus is going to put some new winglets (called wingtip-fences at AI) on their own A320. Does anyone know how they'll look? They were supposed to do it these days. Pics are welcome!

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timboflier215
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:13 pm

not sure exactly when they will do it (there was a date floated), but im sure once they do appear, pics will be posted! as for what they will look like, various attempts have been made to modify pics of the A320 with winglets. it makes them look like out-sized embraer 190s!
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:19 pm

Quoting Lufthansi (Thread starter):
called wingtip-fences

I thought that's what the wings have now and the A320 is getting winglets that look like the 737.
 
B742
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:58 pm

I havn't seen any pics as of yet of the new winglets!

As Shamrock350 said, I think they will be like the 737 winglets!

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...s_items/06_02_15_a320_newwing.html

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shamrock350
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:03 pm

Has anyone seen the B6 A320 at Toulouse? That would give us a clue to whats going on there.
 
lufthansi
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:42 am

Wow! That would be cool to see winglets like on a 737! But some pilots and technicians of B737NG operators told me that they actually don't save any fuel... But anyway. It looks great. Let's see what airbus is creating. Just imagine those kind of new winglets on an A380... Maybe thay can use an A318s wing for that. lol
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LeanOfPeak
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:03 pm

Quoting Lufthansi (Reply 5):
But some pilots and technicians of B737NG operators told me that they actually don't save any fuel...

All depends how fast and how far you fly the airplane...
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:16 pm

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 6):
Quoting Lufthansi (Reply 5):
But some pilots and technicians of B737NG operators told me that they actually don't save any fuel...

All depends how fast and how far you fly the airplane...

I'm led to believe the wingtip fences on 737 don't really do THAT much. AA, DL, and Airtran ordered theirs without the fences, they all fly them on relatively long flights, so if they did that much, I'm guessing they wouldn't have ordered without them.
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DLKAPA
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences

Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:23 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 7):
I'm led to believe the wingtip fences on 737 don't really do THAT much. AA, DL, and Airtran ordered theirs without the fences, they all fly them on relatively long flights, so if they did that much, I'm guessing they wouldn't have ordered without them.

AA and FL are having winglets attatched aftermarket by Aviation Partners Boeing.
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antoniemey
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:26 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 7):

I'm led to believe the wingtip fences on 737 don't really do THAT much. AA, DL, and Airtran ordered theirs without the fences, they all fly them on relatively long flights, so if they did that much, I'm guessing they wouldn't have ordered without them.

Have you missed the fact that AA is now getting them? Plus, DL doesn't have the cash to get them and I believe they ordered theirs either before the benefits were proven or during the proving runs.
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DesertFlyer
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 7):
I'm led to believe the wingtip fences on 737 don't really do THAT much. AA, DL, and Airtran ordered theirs without the fences, they all fly them on relatively long flights, so if they did that much, I'm guessing they wouldn't have ordered without them.


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I would assume these airlines are not investing in winglets for their looks... that's just another bonus. Big grin Also, if it didn't pay for itself, why would B6 want to invest money into their fleet to have something similar done?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:18 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 8):
AA and FL are having winglets attatched aftermarket by Aviation Partners Boeing.

True, but it may not be the same reasons between the both. AA is getting winglets primarily for their 757 fleet and I believe they want to open an own facility at one of their maintenance bases where they can install the winglets as well.

As for the 738, I recall they weren't interested initially in them mostly because of wingspan clearance issues. But now they had them installed to test if the winglets make sense economically for their network if I'm not mistaken.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:12 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 7):
I'm led to believe the wingtip fences on 737 don't really do THAT much. AA, DL, and Airtran ordered theirs without the fences, they all fly them on relatively long flights, so if they did that much, I'm guessing they wouldn't have ordered without them.

Adding winglets to the 737, can save an airline 5%-7% in fuel cost per year.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/biztravel/2004-06-15-airfuel_x.htm

Quote:
•Winglets. Those funny-looking upturned tabs showing up on the end of airplane wings save fuel — as much as 5%.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2003/q2/nr_030617g.html

Quote:
Besides improving range and fuel savings, winglets offer excellent environmental benefits including reduced noise and emissions. As a result, Southwest is expected to save an average of up to 92,000 gallons (348,258 liters) of jet fuel per airplane per year. Improved performance will permit payload increases out of high, hot and obstacle-limited airports, as well as shorten the time its takes to climb to cruising altitude

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4533531

Quote:
New technology may help airlines curb mounting fuel bills. Southwest and Continental Airlines have installed "winglets" -- or curled-up wing ends -- on some 737s. It's estimated the companies could save 100,000 gallons of fuel, per airplane, per year.

http://www.boston.com/business/artic...es_wrestle_with_record_fuel_costs/

Quote:
AirTran Airways is taking an especially visible response to soaring jet fuel prices that has a catchy name: ''blended winglets," which are vertical attachments on the end of airplane wings that make the planes more aerodynamic and boost fuel efficiency by 3.5 percent or more.

http://www.aviationpartners.com/company/news.html

Quote:
Hawker 800 and 800XP operators who upgrade to Blended Winglet Equipped 800SPs and 800XP2s ($395,000. and $425,000. installed) are immediately enjoying fuel saving of up to 7% at cruise,” says Aviation Partners Inc.® Senior Vice President of Marketing Dick Friel. “That’s the equivalent of getting 1 free tank of fuel for every 15 fill-ups!
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Johnny
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:04 pm

@Midnightmike

Yes, in theory the consumption can be reduced by that figure.But,by the way, what is the reference fuel consumption of an airplane ?

Answer : it is the best airplane from the testfleet in very good weather conditions with the best engines.This airplane is the reference, that means it uses exactly 100 percent fuel.

all other delivered airplanes have their own percentage of fuelconsumption.For example 101,5 percent or 102,1 percent and so on.

The consumption is rizing by 3-5 percent in the first 3,4 years due to weight increasements ( condensated water ) decreasing engine performance and other factors.

We are operating the B738 with winglets and we have now (after 5 years ) the same fuel consumption WITH winglets as Boeing promised without them.Same happends with Airbus airplanes.

So, by retrofitting winglets you can only reach the original figures (without winglets) again, but not that much more.

Johnny  Smile
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 9):
Have you missed the fact that AA is now getting them? Plus, DL doesn't have the cash to get them and I believe they ordered theirs either before the benefits were proven or during the proving runs.

I did miss that fact .... yes. I hadn't seen anything on that, and the AA 738 i flew last year didn't have them. likewise, I knew Airtran's 73G's were ordered without them, I guess I just never knew they had them refitted with the wingtip fences.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 12):
Adding winglets to the 737, can save an airline 5%-7% in fuel cost per year.

So it's similar to 757, I've heard AA looked into wingtip retrofits for the MD-80s, and found them not to be worth the investment, I'm not sure if that's just rumor, or if its true, and if it is, why would they be less effective on an MD-80?
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lufthansi
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:34 am

Hm. Looking at those notes the winglets aren't supposed to increase performance much. Neither the maximum weights nor the climb rate nor fuel saving.

Is it the same at Airbus?

Could the decreasing of vortexes (resulting in wake turbulence) be a plus on the winglets?
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MidnightMike
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 14):
Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 12):Adding winglets to the 737, can save an airline 5%-7% in fuel cost per year.

So it's similar to 757, I've heard AA looked into wingtip retrofits for the MD-80s, and found them not to be worth the investment, I'm not sure if that's just rumor, or if its true, and if it is, why would they be less effective on an MD-80?

I read somewhere that the number for the MD80 could save an airline 3%-5% per year.

For American airline, they use the MD80 aircraft on their shorter range flights, so, the fuel savings for American, may/could be less than the quoted fuel saving numbers of 3-5%.

As to the difference, could any number of reason, difference in wings, increased fuselage of the MD80. In other, I am not sure.....
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MidnightMike
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 13):
We are operating the B738 with winglets and we have now (after 5 years ) the same fuel consumption WITH winglets as Boeing promised without them.Same happends with Airbus airplanes.

So, by retrofitting winglets you can only reach the original figures (without winglets) again, but not that much more.

Johnny  

Here is another airline going for the winglets for their aircraft:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060320/sfm117.html?.v=34

Quote:
Blended Winglet Technology will reduce drag on EgyptAir's 737-800s by up to 5% with corresponding block fuel burn reductions of up to 4.5%. Payback on the Blended Winglet investment will be under 3 years with typical fuel savings of over 100,000 gallons per year per aircraft.

Boosted range capability, possible with Blended Winglets, will give the carrier greater fuel margins on longer-range operations to Western and Northern Europe. Additionally, a Blended Winglet Equipped 737-800 is a more environmentally friendly aircraft with lowered engine emissions and a reduced noise footprint. These important environmental attributes will be a particular advantage when operating to and from many European destinations.
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Johnny
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:09 am

@ MidnightMike

I think if AA would invest in a modern fleet instead of retrofitting winglets to their MD80´s they could save 20-30 percent fuel... ;_)

What was your last post meaning? That my statement is wrong in your eyes?

Johnny  Smile
 
Derik737
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:22 pm

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 12):

Adding winglets to the 737, can save an airline 5%-7% in fuel cost per year.

Based on our actual flight testing, the winglet fuel savings on the 737-800 averages around 2-3%. Still a good number with fuel costs where they are right now.
 
lufthansi
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:28 pm

But anyway: In advertisement of Boeing and their partners more saving have been reported. So we can agree that winglets (and wingtip fences on Airbus???) don't provide the promised saving but much less. Looking cool, having more space for advertisement and maybe better flight dynamics and reduced vortexes should be all. That's not too bad but not the thing they mentioned in their advertisement.
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MidnightMike
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting Lufthansi (Reply 20):
But anyway: In advertisement of Boeing and their partners more saving have been reported. So we can agree that winglets (and wingtip fences on Airbus???) don't provide the promised saving but much less. Looking cool, having more space for advertisement and maybe better flight dynamics and reduced vortexes should be all. That's not too bad but not the thing they mentioned in their advertisement.

Winglets provide savings to the airlines, as to how much, will always depend on the airline. An airline that flys the 737-800 with winglets on longer routes such as JFK-LAX, are going to notice greater fuel savings than the airline that flys the 737-800 with winglets between JFK-MIA. Another factor is reserve fuel onboard, some airlines require a greater amount of reserve fuel, so this extra weight can impact the numbers as well.
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lufthansi
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RE: Anyone Got Pics Of The New A320 Wingtip-fences?

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:28 pm

Aha! There we go! Maybe Boeing should ask you guys next time for designing the advertisement campaign. It's not only about looking cool and saving fuel (wow, that's a rime! any interest in it Boeing?) but also about some other facts. Thanks for the info!
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