MD 11
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LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:56 am

Hi al,
just flew with LH on an AVRO RJ 85 to Berlin. Very fine plane. I read, that LH (LHregional) has 37 AVROs in their fleet (no other plane of them tops this number!). So, does any operator worldwide has more AVROs ore BAe 146 in service? I suppose not! Any informations?
Greetings,

MD 11
 
p2philip
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:03 am

The only airline which I had in mind was Swiss but I just checked, they only use 18 Avro RJ 85/100.
 
ZRH
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:05 am

It probably is. When you count the whole group, then you have to add also the AVROs of Swiss: 22? On Swiss page they have 18 in October 2005, but I think they took over four more since then. Right?

[Edited 2006-03-19 18:06:46]
 
B742
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:11 am

SN Brussels is the largest Avro/BAe carrier  Smile

SN Brussles has 12 RJ100's, 14 RJ85's and 6 BAe 146's!  Smile

Swiss (Swiss European) have 19 RJ100's and 4 RJ85's  Smile

Luthansa CityLine has 18 RJ85's.

BA Connect has 11 RJ100's and 4 BAe 146's!


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apuneger
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:14 am

SN BA 'only' has 14 Avro RJ85, 12 RJ100, and 6 BAe 146-200...

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HBIHLtoEZE
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:19 am

Don't forget about NW - they have operated 35 RJ85As.

Some of them are probably stored by now, however.

Cheers
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MD 11
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:01 am

B742:
LH regional has 37 AVROs. That includes not only LHCityLine, also a bunch of other small airlines which are all controlled more or less by LH. But you are right, I dont know, if all these 37 AVROs are really property of LH.
Bye,
MD 11
 
steph001
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:50 am

Any chance for the Embraer 170 to replace the BAe 146 with LH? I know that Cirrus Airlines, a partner of LH regional, is the fisrt to fly the Embraer 170 in Germany, so I was wondering whether this is a clue for LH's further developement.
 
EddieDude
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:17 am

When did the Avro's (and BAe's) enter the LH fleet? Is it possible that it was an Avro the plane that took me from FRA to LCY in July 1995?
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TriStar500
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:24 pm

Quoting MD 11 (Reply 6):
LH regional has 37 AVROs. That includes not only LHCityLine, also a bunch of other small airlines which are all controlled more or less by LH. But you are right, I dont know, if all these 37 AVROs are really property of LH.

Following your logic, the LX ARJ are also part of the combined LH fleet, so the size gets even larger.
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johnnybgoode
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:53 pm

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 9):
I dont know, if all these 37 AVROs are really property of LH.

All CityLine Avros are leased from BAe. Initially, they were bought directly from the manufacturer. In the meantime, LH and BAe agreed on a sale/lease-back deal.
Don't know if that applies to the EW and EN BAe's as well.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 8):
Is it possible that it was an Avro the plane that took me from FRA to LCY in July 1995?

If it was a jet, it must have been an Avro. If it was a prop, it's probably been a Dash 8.
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CRJ900
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:52 pm

Quoting Steph001 (Reply 7):
Any chance for the Embraer 170 to replace the BAe 146 with LH? I know that Cirrus Airlines, a partner of LH regional, is the fisrt to fly the Embraer 170 in Germany, so I was wondering whether this is a clue for LH's further developement.

Well, several A.netters have written in other posts that LH doesn't seem too keen on the E170-E190-family...

LH has ordered 12 x 84-seat CRJ900, but the delivery schedule is not determined yet as scople-clause discussions are taking place. LH subsidiaries are the largest CRJ user in Europe, with 77 aircraft flying plus 12 on order, so perhaps the CRJ900 and CRJ900X are the preferred choice for replacing the Avros, as the CRJ serves LH well and pax seem to like them (otherwise they would refuse to fly on them...).
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johnnybgoode
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 11):
so perhaps the CRJ900 and CRJ900X are the preferred choice for replacing the Avros, as the CRJ serves LH well and pax seem to like them

nope, the ARJs will not leave the fleet, but some CR1 will.

the 12 CR9s on order will replace 20 CR1s that will leave the fleet.
basically, the CR9 deal could be considered a short-term solution as in today's environment (LCCs all around), 50-seaters are not that economical anymore.
by phasing out some 50-seat CR1s, this allows LH to lower to some extent its seat miles in the regional fleet.

also, i doubt that this deal required a major investment by LH. first of all, Bombardier will take back 20 CR1s, and also, the CR9 is not a big seller, so Bombardier certainly wanted to place the aircraft LH, giving them a good deal.

but speaking of a short-term solution: the same was said about the CR7 and they are still around and will be around for much longer.

my feeling is that someway down the road LH/CLH will stop operating anything below 70 or 90 seats or so and other LH Regional operators will do this job.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
TriStar500
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:50 pm

There were rumors regarding part of LH's CRJ9 order going to Air One (AP). Would there be any clause prohibiting the use of CR9's operated by AP on behalf of LH in order to circumvent the scope clauses?
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
kiwiandrew

RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting B742 (Reply 3):
SN Brussels is the largest Avro/BAe carrier

SN Brussles has 12 RJ100's, 14 RJ85's and 6 BAe 146's!

Swiss (Swiss European) have 19 RJ100's and 4 RJ85's

Luthansa CityLine has 18 RJ85's.

... but then again Swiss is a subsidiary of LH so maybe we should be counting them altogether for a total of 41 a/c  Wink
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 13):
There were rumors regarding part of LH's CRJ9 order going to Air One (AP). Would there be any clause prohibiting the use of CR9's operated by AP on behalf of LH in order to circumvent the scope clauses?

this rumor has never caught my attention. I am quite sure there is no clause which would prevent that from happening. however, i am even more certain that the pilots' union would exert massive pressure in order to prevent this.

you're sure that was Air One? if i had to venture a guess i would have said Air Dolomiti would take CR9s as it seems more fitting, despite them having thrown out their CR1s.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
dazeflight
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 9):
Following your logic, the LX ARJ are also part of the combined LH fleet, so the size gets even larger.

Well, there's the small but important difference: the 37 planes all wear Lufthansa colors, the SWISS planes don't.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
... but then again Swiss is a subsidiary of LH so maybe we should be counting them altogether for a total of 41 a/c Wink

that would be more like 60 aircrafts then (see above).
 
BBJII
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 8):
When did the Avro's (and BAe's) enter the LH fleet? Is it possible that it was an Avro the plane that took me from FRA to LCY in July 1995?

1995 FRA-LCY-FRA was operated under wetlease by Business Air, (now BMI Regional).

The aircraft would have been G-GNTZ a BAe146-200, now with BA Connect.


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CRJ900
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 12):
basically, the CR9 deal could be considered a short-term solution as in today's environment (LCCs all around), 50-seaters are not that economical anymore. by phasing out some 50-seat CR1s, this allows LH to lower to some extent its seat miles in the regional fleet.

Good thinking by LH, that's why they are profitable. BBD will have a backyard full of 50-seaters if they take them back every time a customer wants to upgrade to bigger aircraft... NOT profitable! *sigh*

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 12):
but speaking of a short-term solution: the same was said about the CR7 and they are still around and will be around for much longer.

How long were they supposed to be in service, then? 2-3 years? I read in FI that LH is very pleased with them...
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johnnybgoode
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 18):
How long were they supposed to be in service, then? 2-3 years? I read in FI that LH is very pleased with them...

yes, i think there is no doubt about it.
i don't think there has ever been a statement as to how long they would remain in the fleet. but from the massive Do 728 order (60+60) it was quite obvious and commonly believed that Lufthansa CityLine would build its fleet of 50+ seaters on this type. consequently, all ARJs and CR7s would fall into oblivion in due time.
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EddieDude
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RE: LH With Biggest Avro RJ Fleet Worldwide?

Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting BBJII (Reply 17):
1995 FRA-LCY-FRA was operated under wetlease by Business Air, (now BMI Regional).

The aircraft would have been G-GNTZ a BAe146-200, now with BA Connect

Thanks for the info. I am quite sure (although not a 100%) that the plane had the Lufthansa CityLine livery. Was G-GNTZ painted in LH colors?
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