jlp123
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Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:31 am

Airtran has applied for NK's abandoned DCA slots to begin either IND-DCA or MDW-DCA. I think that it's a good idea, but will only one roundtrip work?

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf95/390316_web.pdf
 
quickmover
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:41 am

NK?
Do you mean ATA?
 
gr8slvrflt
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:52 am

How many minutes before Delta puts in an application for the same slots?  box 
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airtran737
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 1):
Do you mean ATA?

Read the filing, FL has applied for a roundtrip that NK vacated. The NK slots were for a MYR roundtrip.
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quickmover
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:01 am

OK.
So they are wanting to move the city from MYR to either IND or MDW?
Makes sense.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 2):
How many minutes before Delta puts in an application for the same slots?

DL applied back in November for these slots when NK first announced they were cancelling the DCA-MYR flight. DL wants to fly DCA-SAV.

The DOT has been unusually slow about acting on these slots. One thing working against Airtran on these slots is that they are supposed to be used to provide service to a small non-hub airport. MDW and IND really don't fit that definition.
 
deltagator
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
One thing working against Airtran on these slots is that they are supposed to be used to provide service to a small non-hub airport.



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
DL wants to fly DCA-SAV.

DCA-SAV might do pretty good with the military presence down there with Hunter AAF, and Ft. Stewart.
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usairways85
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:46 am

DCA-MDW/IND would probably do very well, but with only one frequency it really limits the options for business travelers
 
Indy
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
One thing working against Airtran on these slots is that they are supposed to be used to provide service to a small non-hub airport. MDW and IND really don't fit that definition.

Well it depends on what you call small. IND isn't even a top 25 airport. And it is definately a non-hub airport. Unless you count FX

Is it normal to write up an application like that. It looks as if the application is for IND-DCA with all the info about IND but it contains the "or" clause. Is this perhaps to trick the DOT into approving the application that would allow them to serve DCA from MDW even though the DOT intended it to be from a smaller market? Or is this a way of providing a backup that if the DOT won't approve IND that maybe they'd approve MDW and it would prevent FL from having to file a 2nd app?

Edit:
Is it possible that this may be a multi-city route like MDW-IND-DCA? That might be the idea way to open up all 3 markets to each other.

[Edited 2006-03-20 20:03:25]
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
srbmod
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
DL wants to fly DCA-SAV.

It actually wouldn't be DL flying it, as the application is for OH to operate the service.
 
Humberside
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 8):
Edit:
Is it possible that this may be a multi-city route like MDW-IND-DCA? That might be the idea way to open up all 3 markets to each other.

I dont think this would be very competitive from MDW against ATA. Non-stop multiple daily flights or a one stop once daily flight?
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positiverate
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:00 am

This is going to be an interesting competition. AirTran filed an application to serve IND or MDW as a medium hub airport in lieu of a small hub, which is not allowed, and they also filed a motion to shift the FLL and RSW slots to ATL which also are not allowed by the statue.

US has a very competitive application to SRQ to compete with DL (Comair) to SAV. However, as I understand it USAir Express may not qualify because of the Chattanooga within-perimeter slots which appear to violate the transfer prohibitions, vis-à-vis the acquisition by HP.
 
FA4B6
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:43 am

Didnt B6 submit a request for DCA slots as well?
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Mexicana757
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:20 am

It appears that FL is more about serving IND-DCA instead of MDW-DCA. They talk more about how they are serving IND and central Indiana.

I think that once daily would work out of IND, but once daily MDW-DCA would be a tough to work, who knows. On DCA-IND both NW and US are on. And on DCA-MDW, ATA is the only airline. Competition looks about the same on both routes.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 11):
AirTran filed an application to serve IND or MDW as a medium hub airport in lieu of a small hub, which is not allowed, and they also filed a motion to shift the FLL and RSW slots to ATL which also are not allowed by the statue.

Actually, the DOT has already allowed the statue to be broken by allowing Spirit the ability to seasonally shift between DCA-FLL and DCA-DTW. This is what drove Airtran to make the request to seasonally shift DCA-RSW to DCA-ATL. I think Airtran will have a decent chance of getting this approved.

However, I don't think Airtran will get the IND-DCA slots. These slots were designated specifically for a small market and IND doesn't qualify.

I think either US's DCA-SRQ or DL's DCA-SAV will have the best chance. US has an advantage over DL in that it proposes using larger equipment (E170/190/A319 vs CRJ200). However, US is also at a slight disadvantage as they are the largest holder of slots at DCA.
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:20 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 14):
I think either US's DCA-SRQ or DL's DCA-SAV will have the best chance. US has an advantage over DL in that it proposes using larger equipment (E170/190/A319 vs CRJ200).

DL also has made good faith efforts in moving slots to underserved communities. For instance beginning DCA-MLB without filing for vacant or new slots.
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goodmanr
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
DL wants to fly DCA-SAV.

That would be an interesting flight. United from IAD is so horrible on express, half because of the G terminal. There is a good amount of vacation traffic for DC to Hilton Head. US in the summer does a saturday nonstop DCA-HHH which I take often and it's almost always full.
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HPRamper
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 6):
DCA-SAV might do pretty good with the military presence down there with Hunter AAF, and Ft. Stewart.

As well as the proximity of Parris Island and Beaufort MCAS, both of which are closer to Savannah than Charleston. I'm sure there would be quite a bit of military and other government traffic on that route.
 
CMHSRQ
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:38 pm

Where can the SRQ or SAV applications be viewed. I can't find them on the DOT site. I'm not really sure what to search for.

found it OST-2000-7182-1082

[Edited 2006-03-21 09:41:41]
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Indy
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:17 pm

Comair has file an objection...

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p84/391587.pdf
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
airwave
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:09 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 19):
Comair has file an objection...

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p84/3...7.pdf

Hmm, good read. They *do* have a valid point. The only thing that concerns me is that the DOT members are sure to have heard of DL's recent wishful thinking about selling off OH, so perhaps they won't rule in favor of OH, if for no other reason that to avoid having to repeat this process six months from now.

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CMHSRQ
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:14 pm

Well I think it will be Comair vs UsAirways. Both offer very competitive applications. I think SAV and Comair will win out, but my fingures are crossed for SRQ.
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CMHSRQ
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:01 pm

I can pick apart Comair's plan a bit.
Is SAV underserved? 2 million pax a year on 7 carriers with non-stop daily service to 12 destinations and Sat service to 3 additional locations? (peak season)MSA pop 310,000 which includes Hinesville and Ft. Stewart, They don't seem underserved?

Is SRQ underserved? 1.3 million pax last year on 6 carriers with non-stop service to 14 destinations. (peak season) Plus Canadian charters .MSA pop 651,000. Which includes Sarasota, Bradenton, Venice. Doesn't include Punta Gorda and N. Charlotte county +200,000 Arcadia and Desoto County + 75,000 or Northport which is in Sarasota County and growing so fast no one knows the population.

The distance between SRQ and TPA is 39 nautical miles as the crow flies. However if you want to drive it's twice as far, because Tampa Bay lies between. The only way I would consider RSW is if I lived south of the Peace River, then it's about an hour to either SRQ or RSW so it would be a toss up.

SAV has direct VA flights on United Express 3 times a day to IAD and USAirways has Sat service to DCA. SRQ has never had direct DCA service and currently AirTran operates 1 daily to BWI. The DCA area is SRQ's 4 largest pax destination, only 1 direct flight.


Anyway, does anyone know when the decision will be made?
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USPIT10L
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 22):
SRQ has never had direct DCA service

USAir and Eastern had DCA-SRQ servive (EA from about 1990-1991, US in 1992). Needless to say, they didn't last long. I believe it was flown with a 727 for EA and a 737 for US. Not sure on US' equip.
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DAYflyer
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 5):
One thing working against Airtran on these slots is that they are supposed to be used to provide service to a small non-hub airport. MDW and IND really don't fit that definition.

I beg to differ. IND is anything but a hub, and is considered a small market.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 24):

I beg to differ. IND is anything but a hub, and is considered a small market.

The DOT definitions are quite different. They classify airports into four categories (based on the number of passengers as a % of the national number of passengers):

Large hub (roughly the 25 busiest airports)
Medium hub (roughly airports ranked 25-75)
Small hub (roughly airports ranked 75-125)
Non hub (airports ranked 125-400+)

As Comair mentions in their rebuttal, IND is a medium hub by the DOT definition. The slots up for grabs are for small/non-hub markets (like SAV/SRQ). The DOT definition is all that matters since they are in charge of handing out the slots.
 
Lindy
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 7):
DCA-MDW/IND would probably do very well, but with only one frequency it really limits the options for business travelers

What the hell is wrong with them? DCA has around 20 daily roundtrips to Chicago already. United, American, American Eagle, ATA, US Airways Express - do we really need more????????????????????
Can they start flying to some places where there are no or limited number of flights?
"If" AirTran gets that slot and starts flying to MDW from DCA - then I hope they go down the drain. They only want that route to hit on ATA. But be real, ATA + WN at MDW rules.

Rafal
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Indy
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:24 am

FL could also argue that the DOT eval of IND was based on a time that US had a large operation here. I believe this is based on a 1997 report. So I would assume that the report was based on 1996 data which is when the US hub was still somewhat in operation here. The US hub of course is now gone. Not sure that case would fly. But we shall see shortly.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Mexicana757
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Lindy (Reply 26):
What the hell is wrong with them? DCA has around 20 daily roundtrips to Chicago already. United, American, American Eagle, ATA, US Airways Express - do we really need more????????????????????
Can they start flying to some places where there are no or limited number of flights?
"If" AirTran gets that slot and starts flying to MDW from DCA - then I hope they go down the drain. They only want that route to hit on ATA. But be real, ATA + WN at MDW rules.

Theres nothing wrong with giving ATA a little competition. On MDW-DCA, ATA is the only airline on the route.

So what if there are around 20 flights to Chicago, look at how many flights there are to NYC area from DCA.
 
goodmanr
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 22):
Is SAV underserved? 2 million pax a year on 7 carriers with non-stop daily service to 12 destinations and Sat service to 3 additional locations? (peak season)MSA pop 310,000 which includes Hinesville and Ft. Stewart, They don't seem underserved?

There is a lot of vacation traffic.
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Lindy
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 28):
Theres nothing wrong with giving ATA a little competition. On MDW-DCA, ATA is the only airline on the route.

Its not a matter of a competition. DCA-MDW flights are O&D. There are very limited numbers of connections from MDW outward. The only airline that can provide connections is ATA. What will FL do? They will connect you via MDW to ATL or BWI? That is very stupid on FL side.
That flight can't support two cariers. ATA is already downgrading some of their flights out of DCA to B737-300. If FL will enter this route then both airlines will loose money, and to recover from loses they will highjack the ticket prices too high that people wont fly both carriers.
There are almost 20 daily flights to ORD because UA and AA can offer UNLIMITED connections outward. This is their hub, and they have enough passengers that they can afford to run shuttle between DCA and ORd.

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 28):
So what if there are around 20 flights to Chicago, look at how many flights there are to NYC area from DCA.

NYC has so many daily flights from DCA because there is demand for them. La Guardia is for business passengers (US and DL), while American Eagle to JFK to connect to international flights. ORD, NYC, and BOS - all 3 markets are justified to have very frequent daily connections from Washington DC. Chicago Midway airport is for leasure passengers and vacationiers. Like I'm saying, if FL will add MDW from DCA it will hurt them.

Rafal
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goodmanr
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting Lindy (Reply 30):
Chicago Midway airport is for leasure passengers and vacationiers

Only b/c of UA/AA hubs at ORD. I much prefer to fly to MDW whether it's business or pleasure and I know most of my collegues do as well.
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CMHSRQ
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:31 am

man this is great stuff, FL, US, UA and OH as well

UAL says no to Airtran for good reason

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p84/391596.pdf

AirTran says fine, take 2 non air21 slots from Comair or UsAirways and issue them to Airtran then grant the Air21slots to either Comair or US

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p84/391605.pdf

USAirways reply to Comair and AirTran

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p84/391621.pdf

UsAirways oppositiion to AirTran changing their DCA-RSW slots

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p84/392024.pdf

Comairs response to UsAirways reply

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p84/392168.pdf

SRQ's letter correcting info on Comair's application

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p84/392189.pdf
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Indy
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:58 am

Is there any word on when the DOT will make its decision on the applications?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
B757capt
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:56 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 33):

I was just wondering the same thing?
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FCYTravis
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RE: Airtran Applies For DCA Slots

Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:14 pm

It's basically the same thing that happens over and over again with AirTran and DOT filings. They whine about not getting slots and demand that, by arbitrary fiat, other airlines should have slots taken away from them simply because AirTran doesn't want to spend money buying slots on the market.

They've been told to sit down and shut up several times before, most recently with an attempt to revoke beyond-perimeter LAS/PHX-DCA slots from US Airways. There appears to be no particular reason why they won't be told to sit down and shut up this time as well.
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