leelaw
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Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:56 am

Airbus is studying a “-900X” growth version of the A350, with weight increases of up to 20t and power possibly from larger-diameter engines, to counter Boeing’s plan to launch a larger 787 derivative, the -10.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...787+stretch+with+heavier+A350.html
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zvezda
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:03 am

So... The A350 encroaches further into the A340 space. I think that's a good thing. Developing the A350 to perform more A340 missions makes more sense to me than adapting A350 developments to the A340.
 
columba
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A35

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting flightglobal.com:


“Customers are shown Boeing’s proposed 787-10 stretch and we then get asked what we can do with the A350,” says the programme’s chief engineer, Dougie Hunter.


I wonder what airlines could be meant by that  Wink
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shamrock350
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:18 am

I think the larger the A350 gets the more likely current A340 operators might be interested in it. Take VS, there was rumor that they were thinking about the A350, a larger one would work better with the A340-600.

[Edited 2006-03-20 19:19:43]
 
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:29 am

I haven't heard anything about this yet so it might just be PR. If we went for a 20t heavier A359 my guess is that a lot of strengthening would be required to the wings and a center landing gear or a 777 style gear would be needed. So far the current A350 MTOW stands at 245t. On the other hand, this would be the definite 772ER killer.
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:34 am

So this would be 580-590,000 lbs MTOW aircraft. That is a substantial increase in take off weight. I wonder if it is all for fuel or if there is a payload increase, and what type of range they expect to get out of it. With that much extra fuel, they should get 772LR range.

Interesting that GE is proposing a GP7200 derivative for this aircraft. That would eliminate commonality between the GEnx A358 and the A359HGW. Would they offer an A359 that is GEnx powered if they did go with the GP7200 engine?
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trex8
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:52 am

or how about derating the GP7000 for the A358?
I vaguely remember in some previous thread that it was explained that an engine with x thrust for a 4 engine requirement is not good for a 2 engine situation with the same TO thrust requirement due to different cruise thrust levels necessary for the 2 situations.
 
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
Interesting that GE is proposing a GP7200 derivative for this aircraft. That would eliminate commonality between the GEnx A358 and the A359HGW. Would they offer an A359 that is GEnx powered if they did go with the GP7200 engine?

Could that be considered an advantage for RR if they are (as some say) "growing" the T1700 to these levels?
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:01 am

I wonder how the GP7000's compete with GEnx for fuel burn?

I'm not sure the heavier A350-900 is any more of a 772ER killer than 787-10. I think Boeing is more or less conceding 772ER is just about done for buy building 787-10, just like Airbus is saying A340-300 and A330-300 are done by building A350-900.

The issue Airbus has is their old cross section, which is narrow enough it can only hold 8-abreast in coach class, vs 9 abreast on 787 and 777. Meaning, say an A340 or A350 is a little over 200 feet long, has 40-some odd rows of seats, and then say a 777 or 787 is a little over 200 feet long, 40-some odd rows of seats as well, that's another 40 some seats the Boeing is holding, and comperably speaking, isn't a heavier plane than the airbus either.

Airbus should have gone with a wider cross-section for A350. They just won't let it die.
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 4):
I haven't heard anything about this yet so it might just be PR. If we went for a 20t heavier A359 my guess is that a lot of strengthening would be required to the wings and a center landing gear or a 777 style gear would be needed. So far the current A350 MTOW stands at 245t. On the other hand, this would be the definite 772ER killer.

265t TO weight is still less than a A343 (275t), maybe they can just use the center gear of the A343, its likely to be only a minor problem for them to sort out
 
A319XFW
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 9):
265t TO weight is still less than a A343 (275t), maybe they can just use the center gear of the A343, its likely to be only a minor problem for them to sort out

That's easy for you to say Big grin
 
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:07 am

How will this affect Airbus plans for a A340 enhanced? In my opinion stretching and making the A350 more powerful seems like a much better idea IMO. Although it might be difficult to stretch the A350 as long as the A340-600. That would require a new wing.
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zvezda
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 4):
this would be the definite 772ER killer.

The A350-900 as currently defined is already a B777-200ER killer.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 8):
I wonder how the GP7000's compete with GEnx for fuel burn?

The GP7000 has nearly 10% higher SFC than the GEnx. About 0.561 vs 0.515. A GP7000 reworked for the A350 would probably be somewhat lower than 0.561 but I doubt they would get down to 0.515 and still be able to recoup development costs.
 
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 9):
265t TO weight is still less than a A343 (275t), maybe they can just use the center gear of the A343, its likely to be only a minor problem for them to sort out

How much weight is saved from the Al-Li fuselage and composite wings compared to the a343? Doesn't that cover the difference?
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trex8
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:21 am

IIRC Airbus was saying the A350s new materials would save something in the order of <10 tons, maybe even half that, and then you lose 2+ tons worth from the heavier new GEnx and Trent1000 engines.
 
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 4):
and a center landing gear or a 777 style gear would be needed



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 9):
maybe they can just use the center gear of the A343

Did you actually read the article?

Quote:
“We could achieve this with the existing gear using larger wheels and tyres without running into ACN [runway weight loading] problems,” he says.

Shortly after the A350 was launched, Airbus stated that they were "beefing up" the undercarriage to cope with higher weight variants.
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kappel
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 14):
IIRC Airbus was saying the A350s new materials would save something in the order of <10 tons, maybe even half that, and then you lose 2+ tons worth from the heavier new GEnx and Trent1000 engines.

OK thanks, so that weight saving, coupled with this quote:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 15):
�We could achieve this with the existing gear using larger wheels and tyres without running into ACN [runway weight loading] problems,�

should cover the increase in weight. Good to see Airbus is reacting.
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:48 am

But the biggest problem for the A350 still lies in the fuselage width. This alone will prove to be a problem even after new models are introduced.

Again, I don't seem to understand Airbus' reluctance to go all new design for the A350. I believe if Airbus were to do this they would for sure have a wider fuselage to better compete with the 777/787.
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 16):
should cover the increase in weight. Good to see Airbus is reacting.

Not really. The whole story of the A350 has been "react, react, react." They should be proactive, and get Boeing to react for a chance.
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astuteman
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 9):
265t TO weight is still less than a A343 (275t), maybe they can just use the center gear of the A343, its likely to be only a minor problem for them to sort out



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 15):
Shortly after the A350 was launched, Airbus stated that they were "beefing up" the undercarriage to cope with higher weight variants.

Quite correct. I'd also assert that 2 "beefed up" gear are both lighter and less complex than 3 "lesser" gear.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 17):
Again, I don't seem to understand Airbus' reluctance to go all new design for the A350.

After all this, me neither  Smile

Actually, I tell a lie. The whole widebody manufacturing process is geared to this X-section, and it saves Airbus a LOT of money in production costs, and particularly tooling. Those profits don't come from nowhere .

There is a big cost to exit for Airbus on this issue,
BUT............... there comes the day........
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
The GP7000 has nearly 10% higher SFC than the GEnx. About 0.561 vs 0.515. A GP7000 reworked for the A350 would probably be somewhat lower than 0.561 but I doubt they would get down to 0.515 and still be able to recoup development costs.

True. But by the Alliance contract, GE has their hands tied on the GenX at those thrust levels. Bwaaa haa haa.  Wink

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 7):
Could that be considered an advantage for RR if they are (as some say) "growing" the T1700 to these levels?

 checkmark  Unless the Alliance agrees to develop a contra-rotating F119/GenX derived engine.

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 11):
How will this affect Airbus plans for a A340 enhanced? In my opinion stretching and making the A350 more powerful seems like a much better idea IMO.

This and the 787-10 in reality kills what is left of the space the A340E would compete in. If its possible to do an aircraft with two engines, its just not economical to compete with another 8 to 10 tons of weight that a four engine design must carry about.

Lightsaber
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atmx2000
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 17):
Again, I don't seem to understand Airbus' reluctance to go all new design for the A350. I believe if Airbus were to do this they would for sure have a wider fuselage to better compete with the 777/787.

If they go for an all new design, they end up spending $10 billion or more, push EIS back even further, and lose any manufacturing commonality advantage. Moreover, the refresh of the entire product line from the 250 to 350 pax market will take even longer. And they probably lose type rating commonality if they still have it at this point. Plus they limit their ability to respond to Boeing moves in other categories. And they consume resources that might want to deploy on the A320 replacement and A389.
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 15):
Shortly after the A350 was launched, Airbus stated that they were "beefing up" the undercarriage to cope with higher weight variants.

I think Airbus hinted at this almost from the beginning with the original A350 proposal. This aircraft really should have enough growth to cover most of the A340 market as others have said.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 17):
Again, I don't seem to understand Airbus' reluctance to go all new design for the A350. I believe if Airbus were to do this they would for sure have a wider fuselage to better compete with the 777/787.

In my opinion, modifying the A300 fuselage specification would require very extensive and costly retooling of the entire Airbus manufacturing and deliver process. Such costs, time and disruption would then need to be absorbed by the A350 program. I don't see that happening.
 
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:29 am

Good to see GE and RR working up higher thrust engines. Now perhaps this will enable the 787-10 to be launched with EK as a result of Airbus action, since the only thing stopping the -10 was the need for larger engines.

A good example of Boeing being able to take full advantage of a new Airbus developement.
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atmx2000
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 18):
Not really. The whole story of the A350 has been "react, react, react." They should be proactive, and get Boeing to react for a chance.

They were proactive, and Boeing reacted with the higher MTOW 787-9 and 787-10X. Now they are reacting back.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
True. But by the Alliance contract, GE has their hands tied on the GenX at those thrust levels. Bwaaa haa haa.  

Really? I hadn't heard that here before... So how is GE restricted?
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 3):
Take VS, there was rumor that they were thinking about the A350, a larger one would work better with the A340-600.

There was also a rumor that they were seriously looking at the 777. Heck, the rumor said they even sent ther pilots to Seattle to check it out.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 4):
On the other hand, this would be the definite 772ER killer.

Don't bet on it. The 787-10 will kill the 772ER instead.

On the other hand, this is probably a better route for Airbus to take instead of putting band aids on the A340.
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 18):
Not really. The whole story of the A350 has been "react, react, react." They should be proactive, and get Boeing to react for a chance.

It's my understanding that the 787-10 IS a reaction on Boeing's behalf to counter the A359. A359HGW is a further reaction against 787-10!
Correct me if I'm wrong!
 
killjoy
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
True. But by the Alliance contract, GE has their hands tied on the GenX at those thrust levels. Bwaaa haa haa.

I wonder if this affected Finnair's decision to go with RR. GE should have been the clear favorite. Perhaps Airbus already has a customer for the new derivative.

Or then I'm talking out of my ass.
 
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A35

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 21):



Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 22):

Yes, retooling is expensive but you need to offer what airlines want and additionaly you need to void your competitors advantages. Simple as that.

Look, nothing is free and retooling is expensive but if Boeing continues to have a better medium to longhaul product than Airbus will continue to lose important sales. IMHO, delay the bird for one year and offer a new cross section.

I believe Leahey himself said that Boeing's 787 has won sales compaigns based on how versatile the aircraft is by giving airlines option whether to have an extra row of seats. Too lazy to find a link now...

At this point, they still have a window of opportunity to say lets put the A330/340 to bed... and come up with a new cross section for a new plane.

Airbus has to strive to have the best products and not simply a rehash just for the sake of having one to compete.

Just my 2 cents.
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killjoy
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 28):
Look, nothing is free and retooling is expensive but if Boeing continues to have a better medium to longhaul product than Airbus will continue to lose important sales.

What load was the 787-9 wing optimized for, btw? How much can Boeing stretch it before modifications are needed? If they reach the limit before Airbus, the A350 could gain a much needed advantage.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 28):
Airbus has to strive to have the best products and not simply a rehash just for the sake of having one to compete.

I'd agree with you completely if it wasn't for the fact that the A350 is actually selling fairly well, all things considered. I think they're better off doing that for now, and releasing a new product family starting with the A320-replacement instead.
 
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:11 am

Lightsaber! Welcome to my RU list! I should have added you some time ago.

Quoting KLMcedric (Reply 26):
It's my understanding that the 787-10 IS a reaction on Boeing's behalf to counter the A359. A359HGW is a further reaction against 787-10!
Correct me if I'm wrong!

It's more complex than that. Boeing extended the B787's wingspan back in 2004 so that the B787-10 would be possible without having to rework the wing.
 
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 17):
But the biggest problem for the A350 still lies in the fuselage width. This alone will prove to be a problem even after new models are introduced.



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 8):
Airbus should have gone with a wider cross-section for A350. They just won't let it die.

IMO they are doing the right thing. Even though the 2+4+2 in A350 will not have as much seat width as 2+4+2 in 787, given the fact that 80% of 787 orders so far are for 3+3+3 configuration, with the same seat width as in A350, then A350 will remain as more comfortable plane in comparison to 3+3+3 configured 787. They should rework the shape of the fuselage to make it more ergonomical, though.

"2+4+2" 787> "2+4+2" A350> "3+3+3" 787
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
Interesting that GE is proposing a GP7200 derivative for this aircraft.

Interesting indeed. It means that GE must 'share' this part of the programme (and also, of course, share the cost of development) with PW. Perhaps more importantly, it sort of gets PW back into the market - albeit only on one variant on one model. One, that is, for now. If this happens might it work its way back to a later, even bigger version of the 787?

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 27):
I wonder if this affected Finnair's decision to go with RR. GE should have been the clear favorite.

I'd be interested to know what kind of a deal Finnair got. I'm sure the Trent 1700 is a fine engine but RR must have been very eager to get the programme off the ground before GE pull even further ahead on the A350. Finnair is a small(-ish) but respected airline so RR will have made them a great offer to launch the T1700 - especially since it's one in the eye for General Evil!  Wink
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 11):
How will this affect Airbus plans for a A340 enhanced? In my opinion stretching and making the A350 more powerful seems like a much better idea IMO. Although it might be difficult to stretch the A350 as long as the A340-600. That would require a new wing.

A new wing like the one being developed for A346E? Why not kill the A346E (since the A340 is basically on life support already) and use the 246ft Li-Al A350 derrived fuselage they were going to use on A346E on a longer A350. Create wings that are a composite of those on A350 and those in development for the heavier A346E, use the A350's composite wingboxes and electronics, and use two Trent 1000s or GE90's instead of 4 Trent 1500s, or whatever mythical engines may or not may be being developed for A346E. Then they'd have something with atleast a solid chance of succesfully doing war with 777

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 28):

Look, nothing is free and retooling is expensive but if Boeing continues to have a better medium to longhaul product than Airbus will continue to lose important sales. IMHO, delay the bird for one year and offer a new cross section.

One year? You think they'll come up with a new cross section and re-tool in one year? That is profoundly optimistic. I have to believe there is a reason Airbus won't let the old A300 cross section die. Some of it is that they don't want to spend the money, the rest seems to be that it saved money for developing A330/A340, which made that project far more realistic and quick to materialize, and A350 they never really planned for, it was more a reaction to 787, and since they were already behind in development, they just sort of re-warmed the same old widebody cross section because it was already there.

What I found curious is that Boeing didn't just use a carbon composite 777 cross section for 787, since the one they used is basically the same size (well, a little more narrow, but more efficiently shaped).
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:52 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 33):
What I found curious is that Boeing didn't just use a carbon composite 777 cross section for 787, since the one they used is basically the same size (well, a little more narrow, but more efficiently shaped).

Think about where Boeing's going next. Likely, the next move is Y1/737RS, which is downmarket. After that, they will go upmarket to the Y3. The Y3 is to replace both the 777 and 747 families. If they had used a 777-width fuselage on the Y2/787, they would have encroached too closely to the Y3 space.
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Johnny
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:53 am

Hmm, GP7000 Engines..? That could be an advantage in combined A380/A350 sales campaigns.

The extra 20to TOW would create a real A 340-500 and B777-200LR killer...

Assuming the normal 900´s range around 13900km,thinking about some add. aircraft-weight(engines,structure) and a possible fuel-consumption of 5500-6000kgs/hour which is the goal,then we would have additional 3000km range with the same payload as the A359 will have...

That makes around 16900km at significantly low costs!

Johnny  Smile
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A35

Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:22 am

Question: Circa 1999, I vaguely recall the GP7000 has trade restrictions that, for the time being, only allow application on the A380 and 747-X. Am I off my rocker?

Quoting KLMcedric (Reply 26):
It's my understanding that the 787-10 IS a reaction on Boeing's behalf to counter the A359.

It's not quite that black and white.

The 787-9 has almost as much capacity as the A359 when fitted in 9-abreast economy, with additional range and payload. The -9 essentially lands between the A358 and A359. For discussion purposes, they are mission compatible.

The 787-10X is being tailored for EK's RFP, which specifies higher capacity and range than the 789 and A359 can currently accomidate.
 
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
This and the 787-10 in reality kills what is left of the space the A340E would compete in.

Not really... the A340E would have been primarily an A340-600E, and this doesn't come close to responding to that.

N
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:36 am

And still airbus has nothing in the 200-250 seat medium haul range of aircraft. Aren't they focusing on the wrong end of the market here?
 
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 38):
And still airbus has nothing in the 200-250 seat medium haul range of aircraft. Aren't they focusing on the wrong end of the market here?

Well, Airbus positioned the A350 "between" the 777 and 787, so it competes with the low end of the former and the high end of the latter. I personally think they would have been better served by addressing each Boeing product separately, but perhaps it's a question of resources.
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Aircellist
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 19):


Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 17):Again, I don't seem to understand Airbus' reluctance to go all new design for the A350.

After all this, me neither  

Actually, I tell a lie. The whole widebody manufacturing process is geared to this X-section, and it saves Airbus a LOT of money in production costs, and particularly tooling. Those profits don't come from nowhere .

There is a big cost to exit for Airbus on this issue,
BUT............... there comes the day........
(and maybe it's already here...)
A

Hum... I would gladly like to hear more from you, about that subject.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 21):
If they go for an all new design, [...] they probably lose type rating commonality if they still have it at this point.

Why would they loose rating commonality? Don't they already have cross-crew qualification through three fuselage width? Why coudln't they add a fourth one? The cockpit and systems would be the same. For the time and money spent on that modification, well, I suppose they would not touch much to the wing, nor to control surfaces, and the rest is already being addressed.
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zvezda
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 29):

What load was the 787-9 wing optimized for, btw? How much can Boeing stretch it before modifications are needed?

The B787 wing will support a MTOW up to about 600,000 lbs, perhaps a bit more.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:37 pm

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 40):
Why would they loose rating commonality? Don't they already have cross-crew qualification through three fuselage width? Why coudln't they add a fourth one? The cockpit and systems would be the same. For the time and money spent on that modification, well, I suppose they would not touch much to the wing, nor to control surfaces, and the rest is already being addressed.

Having a commone type rating, like the 737 minor models has is a lot different then cross crew qualification or mixed fleet flying, where the pilot has to maintain separate ratings.

Cheers
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:23 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Airbus is studying a “-900X” growth version of the A350, with weight increases of up to 20t and power possibly from larger-diameter engines, to counter Boeing’s plan to launch a larger 787 derivative, the -10.

Anyone ever stop to considder Airbus just leaks they're studying a heavier A350-900 (which may or may not even make sense) to cool or delay orders for the soon to be announced 787-10?
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astuteman
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:25 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 35):
Hmm, GP7000 Engines..? That could be an advantage in combined A380/A350 sales campaigns.

But perhaps not as much of an advantage as newer and more efficient Trent 1700's applied to both the A350 and A380..... Wink
(Which of course RR can do without stepping on a partner's toes)
A
 
manni
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:43 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 43):
Anyone ever stop to considder Airbus just leaks they're studying a heavier A350-900 (which may or may not even make sense) to cool or delay orders for the soon to be announced 787-10?

That would make a lot of sense, if, with this in mind Airbus 'leaked' this information. Not? Airbus would be stupid not to tell airlines, what they intend to develop. Why do you think Boeing 'leaked' several months ago that they intend to come out with a large variant of the 787, named the 787-10? Emirates as example..., after they went public saying the current 787's do not satisfy them... and industry analyst were already predicting a 50 airframe order for the A350... This 'new' information might delay a pending Emirates order even further.
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atmx2000
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:11 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 45):
That would make a lot of sense, if, with this in mind Airbus 'leaked' this information. Not? Airbus would be stupid not to tell airlines, what they intend to develop. Why do you think Boeing 'leaked' several months ago that they intend to come out with a large variant of the 787, named the 787-10? Emirates as example..., after they went public saying the current 787's do not satisfy them... and industry analyst were already predicting a 50 airframe order for the A350... This 'new' information might delay a pending Emirates order even further.

Yes, but I'm sure Boeing is happier with any delay to the A359 program, which increases the likelihood that Boeing will finish the -9 and -3 and get the -10 onto market as the same time as Airbus. Boeing would probably love to be able to push the launch of the -10 to some point after the -8 enters flight testing.
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Oykie
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:14 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 45):
This 'new' information might delay a pending Emirates order even further.

Maybe they end up not buying anything ever, because they will always wait for that next model to arrive.  Smile Almost the same problems I faces with computers. The minute I buy a computer, a new better model is available. That is why I always wait for years to buy the best product available  Smile

More seriously, the A350-900 sized 787 was what Emirates wanted. They wanted the 787 since it offered the breakthrough technology. However. Since the A350 design has been upgraded even more, and delayed EIS to 2011.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
kappel
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:44 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 47):
and delayed EIS to 2011.

Has this been confirmed by Airbus? I can find nothing of the kind on their website. In fact, the a350 portal still states 2010 as EIS. The 2011 has been thrown around by FI, not Airbus IIRC.
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Oykie
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RE: Airbus To Counter 787 Stretch With Heavier A350

Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 48):
Has this been confirmed by Airbus? I can find nothing of the kind on their website. In fact, the a350 portal still states 2010 as EIS. The 2011 has been thrown around by FI, not Airbus IIRC.

AviationWeek quotes someone from Airbus when they states EIS late 2010 or early 2011. I don't have the copy at hand here, but I will come back with the name of the source.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas