anandt
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:29 pm

Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:32 am

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1457444.cms

Quote:

A major air disaster was averted on Saturday evening over Mumbai's skies after a Russian aircraft climbed to the altitude at which an Emirates aircraft with 300 passengers on board was flying in from the opposite direction.

Both aircraft had moved towards each other at 35,000 ft above Mumbai due to the Russian pilot's failure to comprehend the Air Traffic Control (ATC)'s instructions.

Eventually, it was the traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS) installed aboard the planes which alerted the pilots and made them switch to different altitudes.


[Edited 2006-03-21 16:32:40]
 
NYC777
Posts: 5083
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:50 am

EK502 was the Emirates flight. Anyone know the type?

I thought that all pilots are supposed to fluent on conversant English. Apparently the Russian pilot needs more training!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
CalAir
Posts: 292
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RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:56 am

Would the russian 757 have been Vim Airlines?
British Caledonian...we never forget, you have a choice
 
glidepath73
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RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:59 am

This reminds me of an terrible accident with a IL-76 and a 747 back in the mid 90's when both airliners collided due a misunderstanding of the Russian pilots regarding the altitude.
Really bad, they should think to separate the departure and arrival routes.
Otherwise it's just a matter of time until the next accident happens, as the incident from Saturday shows.
What does ICAO and IATA say regarding those bad route organization of Mumbai?

Regards,
Patrick
Aviation! That rocks...
 
NYC777
Posts: 5083
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting Glidepath73 (Reply 3):
This reminds me of an terrible accident with a IL-76 and a 747 back in the mid 90's when both airliners collided due a misunderstanding of the Russian pilots regarding the altitude.

That accident occured outside of Delhi.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6520
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RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:44 am

Not comprehending to ATC instructions is a serious issue and should be punished by banning the airline from future operations in the airspace.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
anandt
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:29 pm

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:32 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 5):
Not comprehending to ATC instructions is a serious issue and should be punished by banning the airline from future operations in the airspace.

It was a non scheduled flight and so banning is going to be of not much use in such cases. In any event these guys could operate under a new name. Best way might be to penalise the aviation authority of these countries!
 
mika
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:46 pm

English is the industry language and should be used in contact between ATC-A/C at all times all over the world where international traffic is present. Period.


The thing is that i think it´s actually not too uncommon that people chose to communicate in their home language instead of english when they fly/control airspace. That just lays the first of all the pieces needed for a disaster to happen, sad as it is.
 
kaitak
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RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:53 pm

I don't disagree, but one of the major factors in the two most recent mid air collisions (over India and Switzerland) was the crew's confusion over what to do when faced with a TCAS warning. In both of those incidents, a contributory factor was that they failed to do as the TCAS called them to do.

You're quite right, Mika, in saying that many parts of the world, particularly France, still uses French out of sheer, well, Frenchness, on ATC communications, but the Spaniards and Germans still do so.

EK 502 is shown as an A330 in the airline guide, with a 3 class config, but if it's a healthy load, it could always be upgraded to a 772 or 773. A 3 class 332 seats around 240.
 
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sebolino
Posts: 3506
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:23 pm

Reminds me of this commercial for english lessons:

A German coastguard receives a message on the radio:

- "We are sinking ! We are sinking !"

- "What ... what are you thinking about ?" (with a German accent).


 Smile
 
cricket
Posts: 2085
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:23 pm

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:55 pm

After the Chakri-Dadri incident outside DEL - it was an Uzbek IL-76 not a Russian one - even reports of potential mid-air collisions get a lot of reportage. But it is correct that the airspace around BOM is a mess - tens of flights into BOM but it is also on the main Middle-East to South-East Asia track (which includes many SE Asia - Western Europe flights) which means that it deals with hundreds of flights every hour, but the equipment used by the ATC authorities has not been updated in a long time. It can barely keep up with the increase in domestic traffic, let alone flyover traffic.
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
Nimish
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RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:32 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 5):
Not comprehending to ATC instructions is a serious issue and should be punished by banning the airline from future operations in the airspace.


While this may indeed be true in this case, keep in mind that the Indian ATC may also have a heavy accent, and may further increase the communication barrier. I don't know if there's any thought of sending the ATC to "accent neutralization" courses that are run across India. Sometimes even I have a tough time understanding some ATC controllers (and I'm a native).
Incredible India!
 
anandt
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:29 pm

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:48 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 11):
Indian ATC may also have a heavy accent

Even in the Queens land the further away you move from London English starts sounding like a foreign language  Smile
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2537
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:12 pm

So, how come nothing happened if the MISS was near...  gnasher 
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
ita350
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:23 am

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:05 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 9):
Reminds me of this commercial for english lessons:

A German coastguard receives a message on the radio:

- "We are sinking ! We are sinking !"

- "What ... what are you thinking about ?" (with a German accent).


Smile

i remember seeing that recently

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...78514075251375&q=german+coastguard
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:09 pm

Reminds me of that old joke (bastardised for this circumstance)...

Controller "Emirates 502 turn right 10 degrees for noise abatement"
Emirates "How much noise does an A330 make at 33,000'?"
Controller "Have you ever heard the noise that's made when an A330 hits a 757?"

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
User avatar
AirIndia
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 2:43 am

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 11):
Indian ATC may also have a heavy accent

Maybe they should be imparted the Cal Center type vocational training and be made to put fake accents. Maybe even a name change  Wink
 
speedbird128
Posts: 1562
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:30 am

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 13):
So, how come nothing happened if the MISS was near...

They missed - and were near to each other at the time...
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RIXrat
Posts: 674
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RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:21 pm

If I remember correctly, the Il76 was using meters instead of feet, a common practice in the former USSR.
 
chris78cpr
Posts: 2733
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:44 am

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting Anandt (Reply 12):



Quoting Anandt (Reply 12):
Even in the Queens land the further away you move from London English starts sounding like a foreign language

Lol, away from london? It gets harder and ahrder every day to understand some people in london! I walked into a pizza place and felt actually so misunderstood as none of the staff spoke bloody english!
5D2/7D/1D2(soon to be a 1Dx) 17-40L/24-105L/70-200F2.8L/100-400L/24F1.4LII/50F1.2L/85F1.2LII
 
MERLIN
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:16 am

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:30 pm

The point here is wheather the pilots have done their job to avert a major disaster. YES. we all knw that the skies are getting crowded day by day and it is getting difficult for the CREWS both(ATC-and-COCKPIT) to handle the traffic.This is not only the incident where mishearing or not standing by the ATC instructions is concerned.THAT is the reason we got TCAS in the aircrafts to avoid unseen trouble.WE shud not forget 1 thing,the TCAS AND ATC INSTRUCTIONS are never on par with each other.Differernt countries have different accent for speaking,doesnt really mean they should have a english neutralisation course.Awareness is what is meant and the pilots involved in this incident did their job.Now if the investigation does report some error in the pilots,their career is at stake and the same with the ATC people.Lets leave assuming things till we have a complete true report.
"Aviation & Black hole carry same effect,once any where near it you're bound to get sucked in".
 
User avatar
csturdiv
Posts: 1659
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:33 am

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Anandt (Reply 12):
Even in the Queens land the further away you move from London English starts sounding like a foreign language

I remember seeing an interview on on MTV with the band Oasis back in the mid to late 90s...I guess it was more mid 90s, this was when they were first breaking big here in the States. Anyway, MTV ran subtitles of the interview just because they were so hard to understand.
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
boo25
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:03 am

RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai

Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:54 am

OMG - my sister was flying EK sat night , DXB-MEL (EK406 i think).

This has just chilled me.

Thank god all are safe.........

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