jsqvl1
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Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:29 am

Here' the link of the video:

http://www.colombiaserver.com/apps/accidente.mpg (14.9MB)

The video was presented by Noticas RCN, a news segment from Canal RCN of Colombia

The plane was operated by Patrulla Aérea Colombiana (Colombian Air Patrol), a non-profit organization that helps people with medical assistance on remote places of Colombia.

There was 4 people on board: The pilot and chief of medical staff, another doctor, a little boy recently operated, and the mother of the boy. Just the pilot survived, but he has burnings on 95% of his body and is fighting for his life.

May all they rest in peace.

Edited for spelling

[Edited 2006-03-22 01:32:47]

[Edited 2006-03-22 01:35:18]
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tavong
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:39 am

I'm so sorry for the fellow colleagues, patient and i hope the pilot survives.

God bless their souls.

Gus
SKBO
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AMSMAN
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:43 am

I'm not a pilot but would it be becuase of the pilot trying to get airbourne too early and stalling the a/c?
Aer Lingus, Proud to be Irish.
 
meister808
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting AMSMAN (Reply 2):
I'm not a pilot but would it be becuase of the pilot trying to get airbourne too early and stalling the a/c?

Yep... you hit it right on the head. It is a shame how many people perish in accidents like this one where the pilot is simply trying to make the airplane do something that is not physically possible. It would be the same thing as you standing in a room and trying to get to the next one by walking through the wall, not by using the door... you can try all you want, but you'll just run into the wall a bunch. A pilot can try to make an airplane fly above the critical angle of attack, but it just isn't going to happen.

-Meister
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khobar
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:04 am

I wonder if the plane was overloaded.
 
AMSMAN
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:05 am

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 3):
It is a shame how many people perish in accidents like this one where the pilot is simply trying to make the airplane do something that is not physically possible

It is sad, one can only wonder now, why the pilot did indeed try to get airbourne so soon.

Sad times! RIP
Aer Lingus, Proud to be Irish.
 
bravo45
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:20 am

We should wait for the investigation before blaming it on anyone, I hope the pilot survivies.
Its a pretty standard takoff procedure when taking off from a soft field to lift off early but then the a/c is supposed to accelerate in ground effect before start climbing. The flaps were lowered further suggesting he was executing a shoft-field takeoff. Looks like there was sufficient crosswind to stray the a/c to a side. That might have caused the pilot to fear hitting the bulidings or trees and that concern might have forced him to try to climb to clear them.

But then again this is speculation, we don't know what his airspeed was.
 
bravo45
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:26 am

On watching the video again, notice the people standing in the direct path of the extended centerline of the runway, that might have been the cause for the pilot to turn to a side instead of a cross wind. And he then might have to try to climb to clear the obstacles.

There can be other possibilities as well, nothing better can come out of this tragedy other than the survival of the pilot, if he does make it (I hope he does) he can hopefully give his account.

They probably need to look at the factors on the ground, people shouldnot be roaming on the airfields like that. They may very well have been the cause of this tragedy.
 
thecamel67
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:28 am

May not be early rotation. Other possible causes of the stall are over max gross weight, outside cg limits, and/or density altitude. Also possible that there was some engine trouble (don't know Spanish so not sure what the commentary by the reporter was.) Either way, a very sad accident.

As as US based Angel Flight pilot, I can tell you that gross weight/cg issues are always a consideration when carrying pax in small aircraft. It is very sad that this happened.
 
FlightShadow
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:29 am

That download doesn't work for me...I mean I can download it, but then can't play it. Something about "error downloading codec"  Sad
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bravo45
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:34 am

Yeah I forgot to mention possible engine trouble and ofcourse the CG and weight. It could (as most accidents are) be a result of a combination of things.
 
thecamel67
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:36 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 7):
On watching the video again, notice the people standing in the direct path of the extended centerline of the runway,

Watch it carefully again. The airplane started to drift off cenerline very early in the takeoff. Can't tell what the alieron and rudder positions were to determine if he was using proper crosswind techniques but you can assume by the result he was not.

When attempting a short/soft field takeoff it is important that you stay within ground effect (1'~2') until you gain enough speed for Vx (best angle) climbout.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:39 am

Unable to see it either. Looks like the link is broken.
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:42 am

My computer shut down by itself when I opened this video! Quite weird and sudden..

Aeroflot777
 
jsqvl1
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:58 am

Quoting FlightShadow (Reply 9):
That download doesn't work for me...I mean I can download it, but then can't play it. Something about "error downloading codec"

Try using a different player.

For those who use Windos Media player, when you start downloading, it looks like the computer is freezed, but it's still working
"SAM hace amigos volando", o al menos solía hacerlos...
 
jsqvl1
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:33 am

...anyway

I put it on YouTube to avoid problems playing the file

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZWC2XJYgcJU

Hope it helps
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highflyer9790
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:40 am

It looked like the C172 was way over its Max t/o weight...

[Edited 2006-03-22 03:41:32]
121
 
luisca
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:49 am

Interesting that the pilot tells the lady to not touch the pedals, seems like the plane is slipping to the right, could it be that the lady, who seemed really freaked out slammed the right pedal?
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
COERJ145
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 16):
It looked like the C172 was way over its Max t/o weight...

Same here, it also looked like the a/c didn't gain enough speed for the t/o.
 
redneckslim
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:27 pm

Time the take off roll.... a classic stall with poor W/B as well. WTF did you see the jerks standing right in front of the strip? Who ever allowed a plane in the hands of incompentant fools like this? In avation, it's a time honored law, fate does not suffer lighty the hands of fools.
 
luisca
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:39 pm

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 18):
Same here, it also looked like the a/c didn't gain enough speed for the t/o

He was performing a typical SOFT FIELD TAKEOFF Procedure

From the Cessna Manual
Flaps 10, do rolling takeoff and slowly accelerate to full power, full back pressure, once the nose of the plane lifts off maintain constant back pressure until airplane lifts off, lower nose and accelerate to Vx while staying on ground effect. Once over 200 feet retract flaps and accelerate to Vy.

Quoting Redneckslim (Reply 19):
Time the take off roll.... a classic stall with poor W/B as well. WTF did you see the jerks standing right in front of the strip? Who ever allowed a plane in the hands of incompentant fools like this? In avation, it's a time honored law, fate does not suffer lighty the hands of fools

slow down and get your facts straight before you make accusations

The airplane seemed to be slipping to the right, if the airplane slips to the right the increased drag will not allow it to accelerate to Vx and it will slow down so much that ground effect will not be enough to keep the airplane airborne, if you look at the rudder closely the rudder seems to be deflected, hence my suggestion, read reply 17.
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bravo45
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 20):
He was performing a typical SOFT FIELD TAKEOFF Procedure

I thought a being mildly critical of their accusations without knowing the facts will be enough for them, certainly I was wrong. Lets see if your post does anything.

You guys can say all you want, I am glad they don't let just anybody write the conclusive reports.
Again I would wait for the investigation reports before even thinking of blaming anyone.

Quoting Redneckslim (Reply 19):
Time the take off roll....

There is a shift in the camera that we are getting the footage from, it doesnot show the complete roll so you CANNOT time the takeoff roll acurately. Secondly there is NO calculation for the time it takes to takeoff.
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 17):
Interesting that the pilot tells the lady to not touch the pedals, seems like the plane is slipping to the right, could it be that the lady, who seemed really freaked out slammed the right pedal?

Could be the reason, but couldn't the pilot use his pedals to counter the lady's actions ?

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
luisca
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:25 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 22):
but couldn't the pilot use his pedals to counter the lady's actions ?

If you are really strong enough you will not be able to counter it, it comes down to basically a battle of the wills, whoever has the strongest legs wins.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
jsqvl1
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:51 pm

It has been reported by RCN that the pilot just died...
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alberchico
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting Jsqvl1 (Reply 24):
It has been reported by RCN that the pilot just died...

don't want to sound too cruel but with 95% of his body horribly burned mabye it was for the best that his troubles have finally ended.....
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
AR1300
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:04 pm

Holly f***ing shit!!!It made me cry.It looks like it was overwight to me, but again, I'm just a humble PPL with not to many hours....And the comments of the people and the comentarist make it worst.May they rest in peace.  Sad
One thing to notice, the pilot told the lady to be carefull with the pedals.
And then the plane just yaws sideways....

mike
You are now free to move about the cabin
 
CO7e7
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:11 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 25):
don't want to sound too cruel but with 95% of his body horribly burned mabye it was for the best that his troubles have finally ended.....

I totally agree.

May he RIP  Sad
 
757MDE
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:16 pm

I'm sorry for the Patrulla Aérea and all the people that receive its services (anyboby saw the Pirry program on them? - Colombians or people who get RCN signal elsewhere) and for the families of those who perished.

One could have theories regarding the accident, but remember most of them are a mix of circumstances, I think most of the causes mentioned here (cg/weight, over rotation, winds... even legs) could have played in the accident.
I for one am going to wait for the investigation.

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 25):
don't want to sound too cruel but with 95% of his body horribly burned mabye it was for the best that his troubles have finally ended.....

I think cruel would be to live like that, I fully agree with you. May he rest in peace.
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fly727
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:28 pm

Quiet a shocking video. Any way to save it to my hard disk? (From the link on YouTube provided) I'd like to show it to some colleagues...

That yaw after liftoff was absolutely abnormal. Hope the pilot survives and recovers from his injuries to exactly tell what happened.

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 3):
Yep... you hit it right on the head. It is a shame how many people perish in accidents like this one where the pilot is simply trying to make the airplane do something that is not physically possible.

Whatever....

RM.
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
Salukipilot
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:30 pm

I dont know if it matters much but it looks to me like its a Cessna 182 Skylane and the pilot attemped a soft field departure w/o leveling off in ground effect to build airspeed. I dont know about the CG and the weight issues but I would imagine that if the pilot held the a/c in ground effect this might have had a different ending!

Sad!
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757MDE
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:33 pm

Quoting Fly727 (Reply 29):
That yaw after liftoff was absolutely abnormal. Hope the pilot survives and recovers from his injuries to exactly tell what happened.

He died tonight (March 21st night)
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rdu777
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:38 pm

It looks as though the plane is overweight for takeoff. As said earlier the pilot seems to be doing a soft field takeoff which all seems right. That would explain why the plane doesn't gain much altitude, but I wonder if maybe the pilot put the flaps up to early. If so I would expect similar results. I don't know why any pilot would retract the flaps at that airspeed and altitude but maybe it contributed? What do yall think?
 
aeroc
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:52 pm

We might never know what caused this, but maybe something happened in the cabin.....ie...things not tied down right and a shift in CG or someone other than the pilot hitting the controls or peddles by accident, she seemed really upset and may have moved some control surfaces during takeoff by moving around in the cabin. Just my two cents thought.....RIP
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:53 pm

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 16):
It looked like the C172 was way over its Max t/o weight...

That's a 182 Skylane. I have most of my hours in one. Flaps appear to be set to 20 for a soft-field takeoff. The engine sounds like the stock O-470, and it sounds normal throughout. It appears that the aircraft never made it too far out of ground effect.

The Cessna 182 is a great, great aircraft with absolutely mind-blowing performance (all things considered) and exceptionally forgiving in the weight and balance envelopes. Unfortunately, though, I have to agree with the above posters that it appears the aircraft was severely overloaded. It's also hot, humid, and I'd assume fairly high in Colombia--three strikes on airplane performance.

Also, there were four people on board--pilot, doctor, mother, and patient. There also appeared to be an oxygen tank and support equipment.

Quick math problem: That age C182 likely has a useful load of around 1100lbs--that means it can carry 1100lbs that aren't a "permanent" part of the airplane. If the pilot weighed 175 (looks to be a conservative estimate), the mother weighed 150, the other doctor weighed 175, and the boy weighed 100, that's 600 pounds--already over halfway to maxing our useful load, and we haven't even factored fuel yet! Figure the airplane has the long range bladders that are (a guess) 2/3ds full, so 50 gallons @ 6lb/gal = 300lb. That brings us to 900lb for people and fuel. Figure luggage and equipment and we are nudging RIGHT against maxing out, and I'm being CONSERVATIVE! From the cowling and interior, that looks most likely to be a 182 manufactured from 1976 to whenever Cessna ceased production (can't remember off hand), so figure the airplane is at least 20 years old; there's NO WAY the airplane could have exactly "by-the-book" performance at that age, no matter how well it is maintained. It certainly has all the hallmarks of being an EXTREMELY poor decision by the pilot in command. Even though the flight was conducted with the best of intentions, it was NOT smart and should not have been attempted. This accident is a sad reminder of that fact.

Quoting Thecamel67 (Reply 8):

As as US based Angel Flight pilot, I can tell you that gross weight/cg issues are always a consideration when carrying pax in small aircraft. It is very sad that this happened.

Congrats on flying for NGF--I just got my application stuff today. I think I'm going to go for it; I love to share the gifts I've been given, and there aren't any better ways to do it than through things like Angel Flight and EAA's Young Eagles.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
lamyl_hhlco
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:38 pm

The plane was fully loaded adding an big oxygen tank on the back . A soft field take off on that situation was not recommended due to an aft CG.(if you maintain a back pressure when you fully loaded on the back during a soft field t/o would stall for sure) As soon as he took off he stalled and couldnt maintain his speed and slamed . This is very unfortunate .poor guys!
 
stealth777
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:34 pm

once he noted that the aircraft was veering to the right quickly, i assume he was not able to just put the plane down back on the runway since he was above V1. However the people standing in the frame of the camera as he rotated seemed to be standing off to the side of the strip so i wouldn't say it was their fault that he couldn't land back. however when the camera had turned around it didn't seem as if there was much runway left to land back on.


and before i forget may all the souls rest in peace. and prayers for all their friends and family who had to witness this horrific crash.


-stealth
 
F9Animal
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:43 pm

I wont try to come up with causes, but did it look like the prop blade was sluggish? Could be the camera, but even during startup, it seemed like it was not getting much power.

That poor lady was terrified. I hope the pilot was not paying more attention at trying to calm her than flying. Sadly, we may never really know what was going on in the aircraft. Was she just scared to get in the plane, or was the child in serious or grave condition? Sure is sad to see the final moments of someones life.

RIP to those that lost their lives.
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legacy135
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:54 pm

Very very sad, such things always touch me emotionally. They all wanted to help and it resulted disastrous.

There is nothing wrong of getting the plane airborne early. Finally the take off wasn't from a concrete runway. The plane just needs to be held in the ground effect, in order to accelerate, just as JBirdAV8r describes. Those of you not agreeing with us, how to get airborne then a floatplane or a departure out of snow? No matter, so far ok, but what I did not like is the extreme slip the plane had on departure.
AS the plane gets airborne at minimum speed, the moment of the prop is indeed extremely high, compared to the rudders forces. The pilot will need to give nearly full rudder, in order to hold the plane straight without slip. If it slips and we are very close to stall....... Those of you being pilots know how to enter a spin: You stall the plane and push rudder in. This is what happened here. The plane stalled and as it was slipping, it resulted in a spin.

So so sad, my feelings are with the victims and families.

Legacy135
 
mika
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:46 pm

That is perhaps the most tragic thing i ever saw captured on video..very very sad.


My thoughts are with the family and friends of the ones lost in this accident. May they find strength in time..
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:10 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 25):
don't want to sound too cruel but with 95% of his body horribly burned mabye it was for the best that his troubles have finally ended.....

It was a foregone conclusion anyway. Using the simple equation (burn area + age = n%), you can get a generally accurate measure of the odds of death.
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Treg
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:25 pm

Just out of curiosity:
Where did it happen? (i.e. what place?)

R.I.P.
 
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tavong
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:55 pm

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 40):
It was a foregone conclusion anyway. Using the simple equation (burn area + age = n%), you can get a generally accurate measure of the odds of death.

If you put it in a way simple word the survival rate of a burn it's inversely proportional to the % of burned skin, it really was extremely difficult for the pilot to survive in these circunstances, anyway a sad accident.

God bless their souls

Gus
SKBO
Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot more happy.
 
bongo
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting Jsqvl1 (Thread starter):
Just the pilot survived, but he has burnings on 95% of his body and is fighting for his life.

He already died.
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
iluv2pilot
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:12 pm

No doubt about it, it was over it's Max Wt.
 
Dtw757
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:34 pm

Very sad indeed and horrible to watch.

As a pilot with time in 172's and 182's it appears to me that the right corrections were not made for some reason on a softfield takeoff. What that reason is is hard to speculate. It does not appear that there were any stiff crosswinds to push the plane off the centerline like that just from looking at the trees in the background. It would have taken quite a cross wind to affect the airplane like that and I just don't see that dust being blown hard across the strip.

To me without any other mechanical reason it just looks as if the airplane was lifted off and not kept coordinated with right rudder as well as trying to climb out of ground effect too soon.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 20):
From the Cessna Manual
Flaps 10, do rolling takeoff and slowly accelerate to full power, full back pressure, once the nose of the plane lifts off maintain constant back pressure until airplane lifts off, lower nose and accelerate to Vx while staying on ground effect. Once over 200 feet retract flaps and accelerate to Vy.

Also but not sure but it appear that these flaps may be set at more than 10 degrees to begin with.

Whatever happened it is very very sad.
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Dtw757
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Iluv2pilot (Reply 44):
No doubt about it, it was over it's Max Wt.

I've thought about that as well. This aircraft appears to be a 182 like the one pictured below. I have only flown a new 182 with a 3 bladed constant speed propeller. For the 182 I have flown I wouldn't think that it would be overweight as the woman was quite small along with a small child. It may very well have been overweight for this type 182 however but it's hard to say.


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nworlnsbearcub
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:11 pm

God awful.... It made me cry a bit.

RIP

Michael
Austin, TX
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crash65
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 46):
I wouldn't think that it would be overweight as the woman was quite small along with a small child. It may very well have been overweight for this type 182 however but it's hard to say.

How much do you think that oxygen tank weighed? There could have been more equipment and luggage on board that we can't see. Definitetly looks more like a 182 than a 172 to me, especially the position of the oil cooler.

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 45):
To me without any other mechanical reason it just looks as if the airplane was lifted off and not kept coordinated with right rudder as well as trying to climb out of ground effect too soon.

I agree 100% about the ground effect, I'm very curious if the takeoff was attempted with a quartering tail wind. There are so many factors that by themselves could have kept the aircraft from flying, any combination of more than one....well, you get the idea.
 
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ManuCH
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RE: Awful Accident In Colombia (caught On Video)

Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:56 pm

My opinion: I don't think an overweight plane or one with an aft cg would yaw so abruptly to one side. It would have stalled, but more straight ahead.

It looks more like someone stepped on the right rudder pedal too much (maybe the woman?) and the pilot tried to compensate with left aileron, causing a stall with a spin (because he was in a slip).

May they rest in peace.

-Manuel
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself

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