adric10
Posts: 15
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CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:39 am

So, I've flown the CO flight from TXL (Berlin) to Newark four times in the last month each time the plane has been, at most, 2/3 full (one time less than half).

I'm wondering if the Berlin-New York routes for CO and DL are making money for the companies? Does anyone have any info on this?

To me it's odd that traffic between NYC and Berlin is so little that CO is having trouble even 2/3 filling a 757.

On another (related) topic, does anyone know of airlines that are interested in flying non-stop Berlin to the US when the new BBI opens? Any word yet?
 
Thorben
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting Adric10 (Thread starter):
To me it's odd that traffic between NYC and Berlin is so little that CO is having trouble even 2/3 filling a 757.

The problem is probably that they both fly to New York. Maybe one to NY and one to SFO would be better.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
MaverickM11
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting Adric10 (Thread starter):
To me it's odd that traffic between NYC and Berlin is so little that CO is having trouble even 2/3 filling a 757.

Makes you wonder about DL filling a 763 Wink
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
The problem is probably that they both fly to New York. Maybe one to NY and one to SFO would be better.

TXL-SFO? Yeah right, like that would work. If anything, DL would switch their flight to ATL, but that's about it. TXL simply does not have the demand for anything else beside NYC, and perhaps another connecting airport. Hence why there were so many failures in the BER-USA market. It is surprising that the current flights are doing rather well.
 
Alias1024
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:03 am

It's winter. Or at least it was when you were flying. Not much tourist demand to Berlin in February. Only the higher yielding business travel. Just because the flight was 2/3 full doesn't mean CO is losing money.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
berlinflyer
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:28 am

Now that BBI is definite to come, they will keep building up the market to be in the best position when connecting traffic becomes possible. I have heard form CO people that the outbound traffic from TXL to EWR is quite good right now. In the summer it is never a problem to fill the NYC planes both ways anyway.
 
N1120A
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:35 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
The problem is probably that they both fly to New York.

Only one flies to New York  wink 

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Maybe one to NY and one to SFO would be better.

SFO would be a quick route to disaster. Neither of the carriers is particularly strong at SFO at all. Also, you automatically have to use at least a 767 on the route, as the 757 doesn't have the range to do it. Next, you would require 1.5 planes per day as opposed to 1 plane per day because of the flying times. Finally, San Francisco is not as big as you think it is.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
commavia
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Maybe one to NY and one to SFO would be better.

Berlin-San Francisco nonstop? Under what possible circumstances could you ever envision that route sustaining a regular, nonstop airline flight?
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:54 am

DL78 JFK TXL went out today with 9 seats in Buisness and 14 seats in coach thats not all that bad. So I am not seeing a problem with filling a 763.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
SESGDL
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 8):
DL78 JFK TXL went out today with 9 seats in Buisness and 14 seats in coach thats not all that bad. So I am not seeing a problem with filling a 763.

That's what was left over right? I certainly hope they didn't fill 23 seats! Wow!

Jeremy
 
worldtraveler
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:52 am

And DL obviously gets the cargo revenue.
 
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airzim
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:53 am

Regardless of the loads, CO has a significant cost advantage over Delta on the route. Doesn't mean Delta's losing money or vice versa, just means CO can outlast DL on the route if it ever beacame a dog route. Probably only big enough for one carrier.
 
Cory6188
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:54 am

I think he means the number of empty seats, which on the whole, especially in Y, isn't too bad. However, 9 empty in Business is rather high, if you ask me.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:59 am

I'm sorry but a 757 does not have a significant cost advantage over a 767. And even what advantage it does have because of the aircraft is more than offset by the revenue generating capability of the 767. CO might have some cost advantage right now because of their overall lower costs but DL's costs will be lower than CO's before very long if they are not already there. DL had one of the lower CASMs among legacy airlines before it went into BK.

I have flown JFKTXL on DL many times, all the way back to A310s acquired from Pan Am and flown by ex-PA crew members. Berlin is a longtime Pan Am strength city and DL acquired many Berlin customers w/ the PA acquisition. I don't know how many they kept during the time they suspended service over the past couple years but they didn't come to any other US airline since none served the US market. Berlin passengers have a long history of flying to FRA on LH for their intercontinental travel needs. I suspect DL and CO can change to an extent for western hemisphere travel but TXL is still very heavily controlled by LH.
 
letsgetwet
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:07 am

CO loads to and from TXL are 70% > for March. That's not bad especially since BF is 80%> . Come summer, you will have aproblem if you want to non-rev.
 
letsgetwet
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
Berlin passengers have a long history of flying to FRA on LH for their intercontinental travel needs. I suspect DL and CO can change to an extent for western hemisphere travel but TXL is still very heavily controlled by LH.

Why would you want to fly through FRA when you can fly non-stop? And probably for less $$.
 
flyabunch
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 15):
Why would you want to fly through FRA when you can fly non-stop? And probably for less $$.

So you don't have to fly on a 757. I am flying this route in June and I picked the FRA routing to avoid the 757. Now I love the 757 but not for that long a flight. I will take the wide body any day...even with a connection.

Mike
 
letsgetwet
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 16):

So you don't have to fly on a 757. I am flying this route in June and I picked the FRA routing to avoid the 757. Now I love the 757 but not for that long a flight. I will take the wide body any day...even with a connection

I know this is off topic, but this is one argument that I could never understand. Other than having the extra aisle, there really is no difference IMHO. Especially since CO's 757 are configured with the 777 style interior and the center lavs.
 
flyabunch
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:39 am

[quote=Letsgetwet,reply=17]I know this is off topic, but this is one argument that I could never understand. Other than having the extra aisle, there really is no difference IMHO. Especially since CO's 757 are configured with the 777 style interior and the center lavs.


Its really just a personal feeling about long distance flying. I fly a lot and I guess I just associate domestic flying with narrow body planes and international flying with wide body planes. I have flown across the pond on narrow body and it was OK but I think I am much more relaxed and rested when the plane is a 767, 777, or even a 330. I do prefer Continental and when I have a choice I fly Business First, but sometimes if I have to fly coach, the wide body is even more important.

Mike
 
letsgetwet
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 18):
Its really just a personal feeling about long distance flying. I fly a lot and I guess I just associate domestic flying with narrow body planes and international flying with wide body planes. I have flown across the pond on narrow body and it was OK but I think I am much more relaxed and rested when the plane is a 767, 777, or even a 330. I do prefer Continental and when I have a choice I fly Business First, but sometimes if I have to fly coach, the wide body is even more important

I guess I'm a little older than you, but I remember crossing the pond in a 707 and considering it a luxury.
 
PSA727
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 17):
Especially since CO's 757 are configured with the 777 style interior and the center lavs.

Are you sure you're not referring to CO's 767s?
I believe the 757 has 2 lavs in the back and 1 just behind J class.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
Berlin is a longtime Pan Am strength city and DL acquired many Berlin customers w/ the PA acquisition. I don't know how many they kept during the time they suspended service over the past couple years but they didn't come to any other US airline since none served the US market.

Actually one of my closest friends in Berlin was working for PA and then
DL at TXL until DL pulled its operations out of there.
His basic summary of the situation was that DL really didn't understand
the German-originating traffic as best they could. And that is how LH
was able to come in and take control of the market share.
You have to remember that LH really wasn't a strong player at TXL
before re-unification, whereas PA was. DL basically handed it to them.
fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
 
letsgetwet
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 20):
I believe the 757 has 2 lavs in the back and 1 just behind J class.

And one in front just behind the cockpit.
 
Zone1
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:39 pm

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 18):
Its really just a personal feeling about long distance flying. I fly a lot and I guess I just associate domestic flying with narrow body planes and international flying with wide body planes. I have flown across the pond on narrow body and it was OK but I think I am much more relaxed and rested when the plane is a 767, 777, or even a 330. I do prefer Continental and when I have a choice I fly Business First, but sometimes if I have to fly coach, the wide body is even more important.

Just pretend that you are riding in the upperdeck of a 747. Actually the 757 is more comfortable than the upper deck of a 747 because of the fusalage curve.
/// U N I T E D
 
MarkATL
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 20):
You have to remember that LH really wasn't a strong player at TXL
before re-unification, whereas PA was

Actually LH wasn't a player at all before re-unification. Only US, UK and French airlines were allowed to fly to Berlin. If I remember at the end they had a minority interest in Euro Berlin with Air France. This why back then Air Berlin was a US flagged airline.

It all seems so strange now, but oddly during the cold war it didn't. I remember flying once from Bremen to Templehof on a Pan Am ATR. Didn't think anything of it. Personally I like the fact that LH took their rightful position of dominance in Berlin.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
panamair
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:15 pm

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 12):
However, 9 empty in Business is rather high, if you ask me.

9 empty translates to 27 seats filled out of 36. That's about 75% LF which is not bad at all for Business on the TXL route. Of course, TXL has never been a major premium cabin filler kind of route though this time round, it has been performing better in the J cabin than DL's previous attempts at TXL transatlantic service. Of course, Berlin is now a more developed market as well (more tourists, more business, etc.) so any attempts to determine the route's viability based on previous experiences is like comparing apples to oranges. FWIW, the last time I flew JFK-TXL (about two weeks ago on a Monday night), we went out with 1 empty J seat and about 15 empty Y seats.

Another indication of the J cabin situation is that DL has been increasingly limiting the availability of J cabin award and upgrade seats this month and into spring/summer. TXL used to be one of the few routes last year that I could easily get a J seat using miles/upgrade certificates. Of course, it's still not like CDG or other business-heavy destinations, but it is on an upward trend.
 
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fxramper
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:37 pm

HOT RUMOR!?!?

Look for AA to start a route to a 2nd destination to Germany. Possible routes include ORD-DUS, JFK-DUS, or JFK-TXL.

Merry Christmas Patrick!

 Smile Smile Smile
 
N1120A
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:38 pm

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 12):
I think he means the number of empty seats, which on the whole, especially in Y, isn't too bad. However, 9 empty in Business is rather high, if you ask me.

9 empty out of 36 is not bad at all

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
I'm sorry but a 757 does not have a significant cost advantage over a 767. And even what advantage it does have because of the aircraft is more than offset by the revenue generating capability of the 767.

What in the world are you talking about? The trip costs for a 400,000 pound 763ER are astronomically higher than those for a 255,000 pound 752. You are talking something like 30-40% less fuel burn, plus significantly lower landing fees, etc. The CASM on the 763ER may be a bit lower, but it still presents a far greater risk than a 752.

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 17):
Especially since CO's 757 are configured with the 777 style interior

Actually, they aren't. Only widebodied aircraft are ordered with the Boeing Signature Interior. The CO 75Bs are, however, equipped with similar Business/First seating and will be the first of the intercontinental aircraft at CO to get AVOD
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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LTU932
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:44 pm

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 20):
You have to remember that LH really wasn't a strong player at TXL before re-unification

They were pretty much non-existent until 1990.

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 23):
Only US, UK and French airlines were allowed to fly to Berlin

What about SU and Interflug? I'm pretty sure both also had some kind of operations out of Berlin.
 
N1120A
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:47 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 27):
What about SU and Interflug? I'm pretty sure both also had some kind of operations out of Berlin.

I think they were talking about out of Tegel, Tempelhof and Gatow
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DFW13L
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:47 pm

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 17):
Especially since CO's 757 are configured with the 777 style interior and the center lavs.

Just curious, what kind of IFE does CO provide on the 757 in coach? Does it have PTVs? I'm thinking about possibly trying to burn some FF miles this summer, and the EWR BRS is available when I want to go, so I was thinking about it. But I don't really want to give up a 777 for a 757.
See, I knew American Eagle was first class all along!
 
N1120A
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:58 pm

Quoting DFW13L (Reply 29):
Just curious, what kind of IFE does CO provide on the 757 in coach? Does it have PTVs?

CO is introducing an AVOD PTV system on the 757. Right now, they don't carry PTVs (the 767s and 777s do), but soon the 757s will have the most sophisticated IFE in the CO fleet.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
panamair
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:50 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
CO is introducing an AVOD PTV system on the 757. Right now, they don't carry PTVs (the 767s and 777s do), but soon the 757s will have the most sophisticated IFE in the CO fleet.

I thought AVOD was only being introduced for BusinessFirst on the 757s? Have they now included the Y cabin in the upgrade too?
 
N1120A
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:55 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 31):
I thought AVOD was only being introduced for BusinessFirst on the 757s? Have they now included the Y cabin in the upgrade too?

This is what I have heard.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
adric10
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:20 pm

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 17):
So you don't have to fly on a 757. I am flying this route in June and I picked the FRA routing to avoid the 757. Now I love the 757 but not for that long a flight. I will take the wide body any day...even with a connection.

Actually, I found Y class in the 757 quite comfortable. I was worried about being on a narrowbody for 8.5 hours, too, but I was pleasantly surprised. For one, every time I've flown this route I've had my own row up in the front of the economy cabin. But even besides that, there was a good bit more legroom and better seat pitch than on the 737-800 I transferred to from EWR to SEA. Though the lack of PTV sets was kind of annoying... and they played Walk the Line twice on EVERY flight acrosss the pond -- good movie, but I can recite the dialogue in my sleep now. ugh.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
Quoting Panamair (Reply 31):I thought AVOD was only being introduced for BusinessFirst on the 757s? Have they now included the Y cabin in the upgrade too?
This is what I have heard.

It wasn't in the plane I flew in Y class yet, but if they make that upgrade it will be a wonderful thing.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:09 pm

Quoting FXramper (Reply 25):
HOT RUMOR!?!?

Look for AA to start a route to a 2nd destination to Germany. Possible routes include ORD-DUS, JFK-DUS, or JFK-TXL.

yep, this one's been floating around for quite some time, so I'd personally call it a cooled off rumor.
I'd put my money on ORD-JFK. I think we all agree JFK-TXL would result in overcapacity between NYC and TXL. Also, NYC-DUS is covered by LH/Privatair plus a daily or so LT A330. ORD-DUS only has the LH/Privatair competition and serves AA's ORD hub.

let's wait and see how DL fares on ATL-DUS.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
mats
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:53 pm

American actually served Berlin-Tegel before; they flew briefly from Berlin to Chicago with a 767. Delta has also served Berlin-Atlanta in the past. They used to fly a 767 from Tegel to Hamburg and on to Atlanta.

I wonder if Continental relies more on connecting traffic and Delta more on O&D. Continental has a massive hub in Newark, better serving Berlin passenger who are headed beyond Newark. Delta has the name reputation in Germany and service to JFK, which many New Yorkers still prefer.
 
kl662
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:39 pm

RE: CO And DL At TXL

Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Adric10 (Thread starter):
So, I've flown the CO flight from TXL (Berlin) to Newark four times in the last month each time the plane has been, at most, 2/3 full (one time less than half).

Obviously, wintertime isn't going to see the highest loads, but I flew EWR-TXL last week and the flight was full. Wasn't expecting that, since the seat selector (both at time of booking and when I checked in) showed a mostly empty cabin. Nevertheless, the plane couldn't have had more than a couple of empty seats.

I flew back AMS-IAH on the 764 yesterday, so have some fresh comments on the narrowbody vs. widebody debate:

1. Flying non-stop from EWR to TXL was great. No hassles; reduced chance of missing baggage; check-in, boarding/luggage policies all standard CO stuff; saved a ton of time over a connecting itinerary which was important for a short trip.

2. Didn't mind the "lack of spaciousness" on the 752. Was watching a movie or had my eyes closed most of the time. However, what was a bit annoying was the seat. Was in an exit row, but the way the seat bottom moves forward when you recline (which is supposed to be more comfortable, I guess) really didn't work for me. Got very little sleep.

3. Yes, 764 is more spacious, but for me, the most convenient item the 752 lacked was the power port. Could watch DVDs on the laptop, which kind of minimized the importance of the available PTV.

If the 752 gets power ports, one of my complaints goes away. If the 764 gets the same seats as the 752, they'll both be equally uncomfortable in my eyes.  ill 

As things stand now, for a US-based traveler, I think the 752 is best eastbound, since the non-stop increases your time at the destination and you'll probably be trying to sleep anyway. A widebody with more amenities is probably better westbound, since you're usually awake more and an additional connection isn't going to make much of a dent in an already long travel day.
 
MarkATL
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:07 am

RE: CO And DL At TXL

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 27):
What about SU and Interflug? I'm pretty sure both also had some kind of operations out of Berlin.

I assume the Soviet Union had to grant Interflug those rights. Until 1990 the four sectors (US, UK, Franch and USSR) were actually soverign to those nations. Therefore the USSR would have had to authorize Interflug to operate from "their" teritory. The whole soverignty and administration of Berlin was to say the least odd.

I spent much time on that wall and even more on the actual GDR/FRG boarder. Thankfully all that is now over. I remember one day I was on patrol and looked up at a flock of birds flying right over the boarder as if it wasn't there. I thought to myself "what a mess we humans have made of this world."
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
eyeonthesky17
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:42 am

RE: CO And DL At TXL

Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:47 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
think he means the number of empty seats, which on the whole, especially in Y, isn't too bad. However, 9 empty in Business is rather high, if you ask me.

The truth of the matter here is that DL can't give the J cabin away and neither can CO. Check the published discounts in Business Class. They'll both keep this route going through the summer but, IMO they won't both be flying this route next fall and winter.

Quoting KL662 (Reply 36):
As things stand now, for a US-based traveler, I think the 752 is best eastbound, since the non-stop increases your time at the destination and you'll probably be trying to sleep anyway. A widebody with more amenities is probably better westbound, since you're usually awake more and an additional connection isn't going to make much of a dent in an already long travel day.

Good point. I never thought of it that way.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
I suspect DL and CO can change to an extent for western hemisphere travel but TXL is still very heavily controlled by LH.

Very true and LH will continue to hold their own on the NYCTXL market. German passengers will do all possible to accrue mileage with LH and some NYC (not many, but some) will want to earn miles with LH/ UA/ US. If (or when) LH steps into the NYCTXL or future NYCBBI market, you can be sure it will deal a heavy blow to CO and DL.
 
MX757
Posts: 495
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RE: CO And DL At TXL

Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:43 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 31):
thought AVOD was only being introduced for BusinessFirst on the 757s? Have they now included the Y cabin in the upgrade too?

We are currently installing AVOD in BF only on the 752s at this time.

Y class still has the drop down screens with selected movies and TV shows. There is more music selections in the Y seats than there was.

Power Ports are being installed in BF and Y class up to row 16.
Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.