Halibut
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Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:25 am

Boeing's still talking up the 747-8 !

If Boeing's #'s are accurate regarding the 747-8 , the 747-8 could eat into the A380's sales ????

  

Halibut

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au.../0,5744,18579060%255E23349,00.html

Boeing lets fly with a jumbo sales pitch
Qantas is being wooed with a barrage of 747-8 efficiency statistics, Steve Creedy reports


"We've really been able to make some significant breakthroughs in the fuel efficiency on the 747-8 - with the engines, with the aerodynamic improvements, as well as significant improvements in the operating costs," Boeing Commercial Airplanes vice-president of product development, Daniel Mooney, told a recent briefing in Sydney.

"When we compare it to the A380, our assessment is that the 747-8 will have better seat mile costs, and significantly - in the order of over 25 per cent - better trip costs."

[Edited 2006-03-23 23:26:25]
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airfrnt
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
"We've really been able to make some significant breakthroughs in the fuel efficiency on the 747-8 - with the engines, with the aerodynamic improvements, as well as significant improvements in the operating costs," Boeing Commercial Airplanes vice-president of product development, Daniel Mooney, told a recent briefing in Sydney.

"When we compare it to the A380, our assessment is that the 747-8 will have better seat mile costs, and significantly - in the order of over 25 per cent - better trip costs."

Sure, but I believe that both Airbus and Boeing will take baths on the A380 and 748. The only reason QF can even look at something like this right now is because it has heavy political constriants on route structures keeping carriers like EK and SQ from competing on their bread and butter routes.

Large planes are very vulnerable to fragmentation. QF has a bye on this round, but whoever finds a way to fly a smaller plane with a similar CASM in will start eating their lunch.
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
If Boeing's #'s are accurate regarding the 747-8 , the 747-8 could eat into the A380's sales ????

Yes, QF will put 480 seats into the A380, just 30 more then a typical B747-8i. As said by Daniel Mooney says this could provide spectacular structural efficiency & fuel savings per seat!

 scratchchin 
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:40 am

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
If Boeing's #'s are accurate regarding the 747-8 , the 747-8 could eat into the A380's sales ????

If Boeing's numbers are accurate (and that's a big IF) and if they are based on typical real-world scenarios (which they almost certainly are not) then the new JumboJet would eat all of the WhaleJet's potential sales. Since Boeing has certainly chosen scenarios that are optimal for the JumboJet rather than typical of what airlines fly, real world numbers will not be so weighted toward the JumboJet.
 
steeler83
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:41 am

A380 heavier by 18%, I'd say that is significant, and I believe it... I think Boeing is very smart with their design of the A380.

How do fuel capacities between the A380 and B747-8 compare (or contrast...)? The article stated that the 747-8 will consume less fuel than the 747-400, but have increased range, which is a considerable improvement in fuel efficiency. It seems to me that this plane will be much more economically efficient than the oversized pig-with-wings A380, and this plane also offers more options such as sleeping quarters for passengers. Airbus would have to remove many seats to put in some sleeping quarters for their passengers.

Maybe I am being overcritical, but I just don't see the A380 flying, pardon the pun
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starrion
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:42 am

These PR reports are getting downright annoying. What's next?

Lufthansa seduced by suave CASM stats of the 747-8?

Kingfisher swoons for the debonair A380?


Please. Both of the manufacturers are trying to get the airliners to commit to the heavy aircraft. Release a PR notice when you get an LOI. I don't think anyone needs to know that the sales reps have completed yet another a$$-kissing session with a potential customer.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:46 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 1):

Large planes are very vulnerable to fragmentation. QF has a bye on this round, but whoever finds a way to fly a smaller plane with a similar CASM in will start eating their lunch.

Yes, exactly.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):

Yes, QF will put 480 seats into the A380, just 30 more then a typical B747-8i.

Bollocks. 450 seats on a JumboJet is not "typical" but a reference number. The comparable reference number for the WhaleJet is 555. Will QF put 450 seats in a JumboJet? Absolutely not -- probably not even 400.
 
swissy
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:50 am

Well well well, how sweet, bashing the A guys about the 350/380 non stop about data and performance and there is no market for it but now there is the 747-8 oh hello "it must be true" what B is saying about the 478...................
and it is as of now a paper plane............

I guess even Boeing is admitting that there is actually a marked for the 380,
why would they come out with a new version?? Because they would loose
all there loyal 747 customers to A.

Cheers, Big grin
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:51 am

Steeler83 fyi: the A388 has 45% more floor space then the 748i, something´s fishy..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:53 am

Sounds as if Boeing had tested the A380 lately...  Wink

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 1):
QF has a bye on this round, but whoever finds a way to fly a smaller plane with a similar CASM in will start eating their lunch.

If there weren't these slot restrictions...

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
It seems to me that this plane will be much more economically efficient than the oversized pig-with-wings A380

The airlines will decide which one is more efficient - and btw - their decisions won't be influenced by such irrelevant aspects like the looks of an aircraft.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
and this plane also offers more options such as sleeping quarters for passengers. Airbus would have to remove many seats to put in some sleeping quarters for their passengers.

How would a plane with less floor space offer more options for on-board amenities?  scratchchin 

PH
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starrion
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:00 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
and this plane also offers more options such as sleeping quarters for passengers. Airbus would have to remove many seats to put in some sleeping quarters for their passengers.

How would a plane with less floor space offer more options for on-board amenities?


______

Boeing is talking about using the attic space behind the hump to offer this. It's currently unused and cannot be used for seating because of the lack of emergency exits. It could be used for berthing mid-flight without impact the number of seats.
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Halibut
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 1):

Large planes are very vulnerable to fragmentation. QF has a bye on this round, but whoever finds a way to fly a smaller plane with a similar CASM in will start eating their lunch.

Yes, exactly.

I agree as well & great point . Something I wanted to add though , being that the 747-8 is smaller than the a380 . Would it be fair to say the Boeing 747-8 could have a larger market & have more to offer airlines due to its smaller size ?

Also , regarding fragmentation ! Boeing has that dept covered = 787 !  idea 

Halibut
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flydreamliner
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):

How do fuel capacities between the A380 and B747-8 compare

The A380 carries 20,000 gallons more fuel - though both aircraft have similar ranges (~8,000 miles).

A 747-8i would in reality hold 380-410. I really don't see 450 going on there. Not even the way Air France or Emirates pack a plane.

747-8i looks as if it will be at worst, competitive in terms of CASM. I'm sure A380 has 747-8i beat for cargo capacity in passenger configuration.

As far as Qantas goes, I think there's a reason they ordered 65 787's. They're shifting their strategy. They don't want just long range major hub to major hub anymore. They want to hit more cities, more frequently. I think that's their strategy to deal with Emirates and Singapore.
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Halibut
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 1):
Sure, but I believe that both Airbus and Boeing will take baths on the A380 and 748

Perhaps ! But Boeing didn't bet the entire farm on it , airbus did !

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
If Boeing's numbers are accurate (and that's a big IF) and if they are based on typical real-world scenarios (which they almost certainly are not) then the new JumboJet would eat all of the WhaleJet's potential sales. Since Boeing has certainly chosen scenarios that are optimal for the JumboJet rather than typical of what airlines fly, real world numbers will not be so weighted toward the JumboJet.

Zvezda ,
What if Boeing's stat's were 50 % accurate ? Lets say you cut Boeing's claims in half . What would that spell for the a380 ?

Halibut
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steeler83
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:12 am

For you people who don't understand how the 747-8 can have things such as sleeping quarters, I went onto Boeing's website to get more information on the 747, about what it would look like, and I also did a google search and found a website that had images of what the interior would feature. On this site was info about the possibility of sleeping quarters above the coach section of the fuselage... If memory serves me correctly, that google search took me to a boeing link...

I will also do another google seach on the 747-8 to see if I can find that site again.
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hb88
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:28 am

Isn't this just a rehash of that Boeing 747-8 puff-piece discussed in FI on 02/03/06? (but pitched to a potential customer).
 
andessmf
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 9):
their decisions won't be influenced by such irrelevant aspects like the looks of an aircraft.

If airlines bought airplanes for looks, the Concorde would still be flying.  cry 

I think what is happening is that Boeing lately has been spot on for their airplane performance statistics. The 773R has already been improved 1.5%. So if they claim 748 improvements, most people may actually believe those numbers.
 
rentonview
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 14):
For you people who don't understand how the 747-8 can have things such as sleeping quarters, I went onto Boeing's website to get more information on the 747, about what it would look like, and I also did a google search and found a website that had images of what the interior would feature. On this site was info about the possibility of sleeping quarters above the coach section of the fuselage... If memory serves me correctly, that google search took me to a boeing link...

Check out this slideshow. The third image is my favorite. Who knew there was so much headroom up there? Does anyone have an idea what the max. height would be?
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
the A388 has 45% more floor space then the 748i

Keesje, you're entitled to your opinion that everything Airbus is perfect and everything Boeing is crap, but you're not entitled to your own reality. Here are floor areas:
B747-400: 372 sq meters
B747-8I: 407 sq meters
A380-800: 552 sq meters

The number for the B747-8I is understated because it does not include the attic space offered for passenger bunks. The number for the WhaleJet is overstated because so much of the upper deck near the windows is unusable space. Even without considering these issues and just comparing the raw numbers, the WhaleJet has 35% more floor area than the new JumboJet and 48% more than the old JumboJet. Taking into account the two issues above, the WhaleJet probably has about 10-15% more usable floor area than the new JumboJet and about 40% more than the old JumboJet.

Quoting Halibut (Reply 13):
Zvezda ,
What if Boeing's stat's were 50 % accurate ? Lets say you cut Boeing's claims in half . What would that spell for the a380 ?

Cutting Boeing's claims in half has nothing to do with reality. When CASM are equal, airlines will choose the smaller aircraft 99% of the time if the purchase prices are comparable. So, Boeing just need to match the WhaleJet's CASM in order to take the lion's share of the VLA market. Airbus need a decisively better CASM to achieve significant WhaleJet sales.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 12):
I'm sure A380 has 747-8i beat for cargo capacity in passenger configuration.

Actually, no, it's the other way around. The WhaleJet's undercarriage takes up a lot of the space that would normally be available for cargo. Also, the JumboJet is a longer aircraft. By weight or volume, a -8 JumboJet with a full passenger load can carry more cargo than a WhaleJet with a full passenger load.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
Bollocks. 450 seats on a JumboJet is not "typical" but a reference number. The comparable reference number for the WhaleJet is 555. Will QF put 450 seats in a JumboJet? Absolutely not -- probably not even 400.

Um sorry to burst your bubble but QF already seats 412 pax in its 744s, give QF a 748 and they will put in at least 430 pax if not 440. QF has sardine-can 31" seat pitch.
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steeler83
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:43 am

RentonView, that was the site that I mentioned had that room for sleeping areas!!! That was the one...  
I came across those images while doing a google image search on the 747-8. There was a complimentary article that stated that the A380 would have to have a few sections of its seats removed to include those ammenities. There is a ton of room above the main cabin in the 747-8; I was amazed myself...

[Edited 2006-03-24 00:52:43]
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):

Um sorry to burst your bubble but QF already seats 412 pax in its 744s, give QF a 748 and they will put in at least 430 pax if not 440. QF has sardine-can 31" seat pitch.

That configuration was chosen years ago. A better indication of what QF will do now is the announced number of seats for the WhaleJet -- unless you want to argue that QF would have liked to fit 555 seats in the WhaleJet but couldn't due to payload/range limitations.
 
NAV20
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
A380 heavier by 18%, I'd say that is significant, and I believe it...



Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
Steeler83 fyi: the A388 has 45% more floor space then the 748i, something´s fishy..

The A380 is a great deal more than 18% heavier than the proposed 748. That wouldn't matter if the extra weight was offset by a proportionate increase in passenger numbers. But, as is made clear in the article, the '18%' figure refers to the A380 being 18% heavier PER SEAT.

"Boeing says the 747-8 also wins when it comes to structural efficiency. It says the A380 is 18 per cent heavier than the 747-8 in terms of operating empty weight per seat, a measure of structural efficiency, and would need to be stretched to 650 seats to match its competitor."

So the A380 is bigger, heavier, and thirstier than the 748; but the extra size only translates into a less-than-proportionate advantage in passenger numbers. Boeing claims that the A380 would have to carry 650, instead of 555, to be competitive in terms of seat-mile costs.
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
The A380 is a great deal more than 18% heavier than the proposed 748. That wouldn't matter if the extra weight was offset by a proportionate increase in passenger numbers. But, as is made clear in the article, the '18%' figure refers to the A380 being 18% heavier PER SEAT.

The OEW of the new JumboJet is 198,666 kg. The OEW of the WhaleJet is 277,745 kg. Both are manufacturer's specs and represent optimistically light cabin configurations. Realistic OEWs for cabin configurations that could be used by a real airline are about 200,000 to 205,000 kg (without SkySuites) for the JumboJet and about 290,000 to 295,000 kg for the WhaleJet.
 
steeler83
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:06 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
The A380 is a great deal more than 18% heavier than the proposed 748. That wouldn't matter if the extra weight was offset by a proportionate increase in passenger numbers. But, as is made clear in the article, the '18%' figure refers to the A380 being 18% heavier PER SEAT.

Woah... Ok, that is even more believable...

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
"Boeing says the 747-8 also wins when it comes to structural efficiency. It says the A380 is 18 per cent heavier than the 747-8 in terms of operating empty weight per seat, a measure of structural efficiency, and would need to be stretched to 650 seats to match its competitor."



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
So the A380 is bigger, heavier, and thirstier than the 748; but the extra size only translates into a less-than-proportionate advantage in passenger numbers. Boeing claims that the A380 would have to carry 650, instead of 555, to be competitive in terms of seat-mile costs.

And would Airbus really consider making such a stretch, pardon the pun. They'd have to take a rational approach, and I don't think adding another 100 passengers is very rational. Although it may be. I am just not sure of where to go with this...
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 24):
And would Airbus really consider making such a stretch, pardon the pun. They'd have to take a rational approach, and I don't think adding another 100 passengers is very rational. Although it may be. I am just not sure of where to go with this...

A WhaleJet stretch is certainly under consideration at Airbus for an introduction of around 2015. The wing was specifically designed to support a larger version. It is usually referred to as the A380-900X.
 
NAV20
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 24):
And would Airbus really consider making such a stretch, pardon the pun.

I think the short answer is that it isn't feasible at current available engine power, Steeler83.

it looks as if the maximum longhaul passenger load of the A380 will not in fact exceed 500 in service. The airlines taking the early deliveries (Singapore and Qantas) are talking about 480.

The key requirement is for an 8,000nm. range. There appears to be no way that Airbus could get 650 seats on the A380 and still achieve that.
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BoomBoom
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
Since Boeing has certainly chosen scenarios that are optimal for the JumboJet rather than typical of what airlines fly, real world numbers will not be so weighted toward the JumboJet.

But doesn't Airbus do the same thing when pitching tha A380?
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Halibut
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 18):
Cutting Boeing's claims in half has nothing to do with reality. When CASM are equal, airlines will choose the smaller aircraft 99% of the time if the purchase prices are comparable. So, Boeing just need to match the WhaleJet's CASM in order to take the lion's share of the VLA market. Airbus need a decisively better CASM to achieve significant WhaleJet sales.

Interesting indeed Zvezda ,
So Boeing's goal is to basicly do as you state above , match or exceed , if possible , airbus's a380 CASM .

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
So the A380 is bigger, heavier, and thirstier than the 748; but the extra size only translates into a less-than-proportionate advantage in passenger numbers. Boeing claims that the A380 would have to carry 650, instead of 555, to be competitive in terms of seat-mile costs.

Another interesting point .
If Boeing's claims are accurate , in order for the a380 to compete with the 747-8 , the a380 must be stuffed to 650 pax .. That's all fine & dandy , however , that market will be even smaller for the a380 . Not too many airlines " I would imagin " require such an aircraft with such a large # of pax !

Halibut
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 27):

But doesn't Airbus do the same thing when pitching tha A380?

Shhhh!! One can get flamed around here for even suggesting the possibility.  Smile
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:28 am

This information is from Airbus Website and Publications;

July 1994 Airbus proposes a 570 seat A3XX (in 3 classes) with 15% better seat costs than the 747, and a MTOW of 471T.
These figures were repeated the next year at the Paris Airshow.

March 2006 A3XX (now A380) is a 555 seater in 3 classes, weighs 564T MTOW, and may not have any seat cost advantage over the proposed 747.

What was Airbus thinking? Did they think Boeing would not improve the 747?

IMHO what has happened is that the original gestimates were wrong, but the project had gained so much momentum, both industrially and politically, that it was too difficult to stop it as the reality of what it takes to move 555 people 8000nm became obvious.

Ruscoe
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:35 am

Thanks Ruscoe! 93 tonnes heavier is a lot of extra weight to carry 15 fewer passengers. But don't worry, Airbus cheerleaders have assured us that Airbus met their weight goals.  Yeah sure
 
Halibut
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 26):
The key requirement is for an 8,000nm. range. There appears to be no way that Airbus could get 650 seats on the A380 and still achieve that.

I completely missed the significance for your reply Nav20 .

A380 , 650 pax going 8,000 miles = not happening !

Did Airbus paint themselfs into a corner ?

Doh !!!.... scared 

Halibut
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jacobin777
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
If Boeing's numbers are accurate (and that's a big IF) and if they are based on typical real-world scenarios (which they almost certainly are not) then the new JumboJet would eat all of the WhaleJet's potential sales. Since Boeing has certainly chosen scenarios that are optimal for the JumboJet rather than typical of what airlines fly, real world numbers will not be so weighted toward the JumboJet.

it will be interesting to see what the "real world" numbers actually are....I agree, if the numbers are true (big "if"), then Airbus will have a problem on its hands for a little while..

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 24):

And would Airbus really consider making such a stretch, pardon the pun. They'd have to take a rational approach, and I don't think adding another 100 passengers is very rational. Although it may be. I am just not sure of where to go with this...

Airbus does plan on possibly introducing the A380-900 (A380-stretch) if there is a need for it...some carriers such as EK and VS have stated that they might need the A380-900 in the future....

Not including the costs, but I wonder how much more efficient the A380 would/will be if it included the new next generation RR and GE engines......certainly it would make the A380 much more efficient than what it is today...

even Boeing stated that third of its efficiency will come via the new engines...
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NAV20
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 30):
IMHO what has happened is that the original gestimates were wrong, but the project had gained so much momentum, both industrially and politically, that it was too difficult to stop it as the reality of what it takes to move 555 people 8000nm became obvious.

Precisely so, in my opinion, Ruscoe. There's a quote I'm fond of:-

"The Aerodynamics Department had worked out the performance of take-off run, rate of climb, high speed and stall speed, as had been done with all previous 'planes in the past years. This data of performance was seldom more than 2% or 3% at variance from the measured figures during actual test flying. Geoffrey therefore knew what to expect even on the first flight."

That was written by Geoffrey De Havilland, describing the first flight of the DH Mosquito in early 1941.

If they could be that accurate in those days, virtually working 'on the back of an envelope', I feel sure that Airbus has known, literally for years, that the A380 would not achieve the 'in service' performance that they have been claiming for it.
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AT502B
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 30):
This information is from Airbus Website and Publications;

July 1994 Airbus proposes a 570 seat A3XX (in 3 classes) with 15% better seat costs than the 747, and a MTOW of 471T.
These figures were repeated the next year at the Paris Airshow.

March 2006 A3XX (now A380) is a 555 seater in 3 classes, weighs 564T MTOW, and may not have any seat cost advantage over the proposed 747.

What was Airbus thinking? Did they think Boeing would not improve the 747?

Well said  bigthumbsup 
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steeler83
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 33):
Airbus does plan on possibly introducing the A380-900 (A380-stretch) if there is a need for it...some carriers such as EK and VS have stated that they might need the A380-900 in the future....

I do remember seeing a thread regarding Airbus' push for a stretch A380, come to think of it...
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zeke
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
Um sorry to burst your bubble but QF already seats 412 pax in its 744s, give QF a 748 and they will put in at least 430 pax if not 440. QF has sardine-can 31" seat pitch.



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):
That configuration was chosen years ago. A better indication of what QF will do now is the announced number of seats for the WhaleJet -- unless you want to argue that QF would have liked to fit 555 seats in the WhaleJet but couldn't due to payload/range limitations.

QF basiclly have two fleets, Europe and Pacific. The newist aircraft on the pacific run (the GE powered 744ERs) are only configured for 343 seats for the range.

The Dumbojet will only provide QF up to 40 seats, whilst the A380 provide for an additional 100 seats ontop of the Dumbojet, i.e. a 733 load ontop of a 744ER load. QF is using this to have an increased yeild per seat by having more J class than what they could have in the 744 or Dumbojet, so on a yeild per seat, or profit per seat the 380 is winning.

You could well have a Dumbojet with the same number of passengers in it as QF plans for the the A380, however the yeild would be very low (thats if the Dumbojet could do it non stop with a A380 load), and the J class would be very small or none at all using the QF seat pitch.
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 34):
"The Aerodynamics Department had worked out the performance of take-off run, rate of climb, high speed and stall speed, as had been done with all previous 'planes in the past years. This data of performance was seldom more than 2% or 3% at variance from the measured figures during actual test flying. Geoffrey therefore knew what to expect even on the first flight."

That was written by Geoffrey De Havilland, describing the first flight of the DH Mosquito in early 1941.

If they could be that accurate in those days, virtually working 'on the back of an envelope', I feel sure that Airbus has known, literally for years, that the A380 would not achieve the 'in service' performance that they have been claiming for it.

Exactly! How on earth could Airbus be off by 93 tonnes?
 
manni
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:10 am

Boeing is sending out a lot of messages to the airlines lately, especially in relation to the 748 and A380. Apart from all sorts of one sided comparisons, they've also been feeding the rumour mill of various airlines seriously looking in the new Dumbojet. Despite all this, no orders whatsoever. On top off that ILFC topman Hazy, hast just publicly said that the 748i will not be a popular aircraft amongst the airlines... This latest PR release of Boeing has all the ingredients to be classified under the 'desperate times call for desperate measures' section.  yes 
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LAXDESI
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting Halibut (Reply 11):
Also , regarding fragmentation ! Boeing has that dept covered = 787 !

What is the expected CASM of a 787 relative to 748 or 380?

Quoting Zeke (Reply 37):
QF is using this to have an increased yeild per seat by having more J class than what they could have in the 744 or Dumbojet, so on a yeild per seat, or profit per seat the 380 is winning.

So its the RASM stupid Big grin
 
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 36):
I do remember seeing a thread regarding Airbus' push for a stretch A380, come to think of it...

I would think that any question of a 'stretch' went right out the window when the supposedly 'over-designed' A380 wing failed at less than the required safety standard for the present version?

Looks as if a stretch (or even, possibly, the freighter version of the present design) will require an extensive wing redesign. Which, of course, will make the wing heavier.......  Smile
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NYC777
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting Swissy (Reply 7):
I guess even Boeing is admitting that there is actually a marked for the 380,
why would they come out with a new version?? Because they would loose
all there loyal 747 customers to A.

Boeing never said that was no market for VLA aircraft like tha A380 or the 748. They said the market is not large enough to justify the R&D expenditure to bring a new VLA aircraft to market. Now that said, the 748 is a new uptodate version of the 747 using technologies developed from the 787 program thus since much of the R&D development will be charged to the 787 program, the 748 total development cost will come relatively cheaply to Boeing and would probably achieve breakeven with the sale of 200-300 aircraft.
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 39):
On top off that ILFC topman Hazy, hast just publicly said that the 748i will not be a popular aircraft amongst the airlines...

he also said of the A350:

Quote:
"It's still an old A300 (cross section). ... It's not optimized. It's not where the 777 and 787 are."

Do you agree with that too?
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gigneil
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):

I would think that any question of a 'stretch' went right out the window when the supposedly 'over-designed' A380 wing failed at less than the required safety standard for the present version?

Hardly. It took only minor revisions to fix the wing and they didn't even have to stop production.

N
 
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:24 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 43):
"It's still an old A300 (cross section). ... It's not optimized. It's not where the 777 and 787 are."

Do you agree with that too?

There's no point arguing about this. But the cross section might be about the only thing that's left from the A300. And it has proved to be very popular indeed.
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zeke
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:24 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 40):
What is the expected CASM of a 787 relative to 748 or 380?

787-10 will be the same or slightly better than the 380 or Dumbojet, anything else the 380 and Dumbojet are better.
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jacobin777
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 39):
On top off that ILFC topman Hazy, hast just publicly said that the 748i will not be a popular aircraft amongst the airlines

he's got 10 A380's he needs to lease out...what else is he going to say?.. Wink
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TinkerBelle
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
I think Boeing is very smart with their design of the A380.

I think you might wanna re-write that sentence. Didn't know B had much to do with the Whalejet.

Quoting Swissy (Reply 7):
t must be true" what B is saying about the 478...................

Damn, B is doing pretty good in this thread. They also have a 478 in the works  biggrin 
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NYC777
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RE: Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats

Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 45):
And it has proved to be very popular indeed.

Not anymore it isn't, the sales of the A340/A350 show that it really can't compete with the 777/787 efficiently.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.