Caymanair
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Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:09 am

As most of you already know, I have this habit of creating airline senarios.

Ive been thinking about a Haitian airline. I keep on saying that 5x A319 serving:

3x daily miami
9x weekly new york
6x weekly ft lauderdale
3x weekly Kingston
3x weekly montreal

could very well work. there would be some obstabcles, but i think with the proper financing/ human resources/ attitude itcould be a positive thing for Haiti. Let me know just how crazy my idea is!!!!

AND

Whats the Haitian aviation scene like nowadays?
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:41 am

Haiti is a mess to say none the less. It is a VERY different world than it's Hispaniola neighbor The Dominican Republic. Haiti is so corrupt and has been such an oligarchy for so long that such a venture I highly doubt would work for several years. The DR has more hotel rooms and all-inclusive resorts than just about anywhere in the Caribbean, along with an inexpensive labor rate to operate such tourist Mecca's on the mega level that they do. How the Dominican's did it however was through charter carriers from Canada (SkyService through Sunquest & Signature Vacations) and from Europe. Only then did scheduled service to other airports at Punta Cana and Puerto Plata pick up from CO, AA & DL. If Haiti is to ever do anything along those lines they need some all-inclusives with an operator willing to work charter flights in not to mention an end to the instability and the violence that frequent the North American and European news headlines.
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Caymanair
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:22 pm

I wasn't thinking about tourist dollars so much as the large VFR market that AA has a massive hold on.

i dont think tourists will be in Haiti for a long time to come...
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:53 pm

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 2):
I wasn't thinking about tourist dollars so much as the large VFR market that AA has a massive hold on.

I dont think tourists will be in Haiti for a long time to come...

Very well said. AA is the #1 carrier to Latin America, with DL taking aim to be #2. But even AA has suspened service a number of times between PAP and MIA or SJU. Haiti is a VERY difficult country to do business in.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
LGA777
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:17 pm

I am under the impression that due to the security of it's aircraft and crews all AA Flights in and out of PAP are turn-arounds with no overnight aircraft. Caymainair your plan would have tremedous appeal to the Hatian community living in the US but there are just to many obsticalles in Haiti for this to work. I also would not be surprised if AA would do whatever it could to protect it's market share on this "Very" lucrative market !

Regards

LGA7777
 
komododx
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting LGA777 (Reply 4):
I am under the impression that due to the security of it's aircraft and crews all AA Flights in and out of PAP are turn-arounds with no overnight aircraft.

 checkmark 

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 2):
I wasn't thinking about tourist dollars so much as the large VFR market that AA has a massive hold on.

Cargo is also very important on this routes. One of the reasons AA keeps its A300s

Quoting Caymanair (Thread starter):
5x A319

 rotfl 

Quoting Caymanair (Thread starter):
but i think with the proper financing/ human resources/ attitude

I doubt you'll find anyone wanting to put down the money to buy new a/c for an airline based in Haiti. At least not for the next 5-10 yrs, if the political situation ever gets normalized over there.

Stefano  wave 
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jetdeltamsy
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:49 am

It's interesting that someone so young thinks he understands how airline economics work.

There is one huge, overriding obstacle to having significant service in Haiti. Security. The place is a security nightmare. From time to time, carriers have to stop flying there because the local authorities cannot assure the safety and security of the aircraft and flight crews.

In an environment like that, nothing will ever happen.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
aa777jfklhr
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:55 am

Not sure if anyone has ever worked or observed a Haiti check-in...There is no possible way that it would work with 319's. AA kept the A300 in service because of its immense cargo capacity. During peak travel times and even during off peak travel times we wind up "cubing out" (for those not familiar with the term, its leaving bags behind because of space.) JetBlue tried flying down to SDQ with the 320's and pulled out because they could not accomodate the passengers baggage. Haiti is worse. AA also has the market share on that and would put a strangle hold on anyone who tries to come into that market.
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MajorNelson
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:16 am

Why would anyone else even want to fly to a horrid place like that? AA can have it.
I turn Tops into Bottoms.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:10 am

Quoting AA777JFKLHR (Reply 7):
JetBlue tried flying down to SDQ with the 320's and pulled out because they could not accommodate the passengers baggage.

JetBlue does go into Santiago, the inland city in the DR just south of Puerto Plata. But I think they mostly focus on the leisure and business travel market there.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
Caymanair
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:31 am

Quoting MajorNelson (Reply 8):
Why would anyone else even want to fly to a horrid place like that? AA can have it.

I go to Haiti 2 or 3 times a year, and I love the place. Im moving back in July, and I havent been there for the last year and a half. It does take some courage to go there, but once that happens most never regret it.


There are many security problems in Haiti.My point is just that there is a large market in Haiti, and its ruled by a near monopoly.
 
2travel2know
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:28 pm

CM flies twice daily PTY-PAP, I think that route could support up to 4 times per week (if on E190) but I doubt daily PTY-PAP, which I reckon would be nice to offer if there was such a big demand for flights via PTY hub in Haïti.
Maybe one day both KIN and PAP will get their daily CM PTY flights.
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aacun
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:47 am

Major Nelson,

That is an awful thing to say. It´s disrespectful and out of place to make a comment like that. The island of Hispaniola is beautiful, the views landing into PAP are incredible, and even though they have their share of problems down there, I dont think it´s anyone´s place to critize, unless you can come up with real solutions to their problems.

This said, for sometime PAP was the biggest money making station for AA in the caribbean, and Im sure it is still one of the most important markets in terms of revenue throughout that area.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:50 am

I don't know...

You might do better running a ferry service between Haiti and Miami rather than air service.. I'm SURE you would get plenty of business with that idea..
Aiming High and going far..
 
MajorNelson
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Aacun (Reply 12):
That is an awful thing to say. It´s disrespectful and out of place to make a comment like that. The island of Hispaniola is beautiful, the views landing into PAP are incredible, and even though they

Let's recap the opinions of others on here and tell me how 'awful and out of place' I was. To reiterate, a horrid place.

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 10):
It does take some courage to go there



Quoting Caymanair (Reply 10):
There are many security problems in Haiti



Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 6):
There is one huge, overriding obstacle to having significant service in Haiti. Security. The place is a security nightmare. From time to time, carriers have to stop flying there because the local authorities cannot assure the safety and security of the aircraft and flight crews.
In an environment like that, nothing will ever happen.



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
Haiti is a VERY difficult country to do business in.



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Haiti is a mess to say none the less. It is a VERY different world than it's Hispaniola neighbor The Dominican Republic. Haiti is so corrupt and has been such an oligarchy for so long that such a venture I highly doubt would work for several years

So, Aacun -- see? It doesnt matter how 'beautiful the approach is' to a place. When the government is corrupt and their own natives are coming across to Florida floating on inner tubes and homemade pontoon boats made out of baby cribs to enter this country illegally (kinda like they do from Mexico too), then obviously their own citizens think it's a horrid place too.
I turn Tops into Bottoms.
 
aa1818
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting Aacun (Reply 12):
That is an awful thing to say. It´s disrespectful and out of place to make a comment like that. The island of Hispaniola is beautiful, the views landing into PAP are incredible, and even though they have their share of problems down there, I dont think it´s anyone´s place to critize, unless you can come up with real solutions to their problems.

Aacun, as someone from the region who lives in a country that is closely tied to Haiti through Caricom, I'll tell you Haiti is a horrid place. Cursed if you want to go that far. Voodoo, corruption, mass killings, crime, and total disrespect for outsiders. I feel no remourse when I read about their poverty etc. Trinidad and Tobago have been in horrible positions before and have had a similar history of collapsing economies in days of foreign rule etc. Through hard work, order and dedication we have emerged as a regional leader, while Haiti struggles continually because of the mentality of the people.

More aviation related- I think they should acquire second hand A300's or 757s to run to the US. A319s will work to destinations like KIN, POS, ANU, SDQ (with high frequencies) etc. Cargo and sheer market size will necessitate medium to large a/c on the MIA, FLL, JFK, YUL, YYZ and perhaps other destinations with large hispanic populations- ATL?? IAH??

AA1818
“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
 
Caymanair
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:25 pm

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 15):
Aacun, as someone from the region who lives in a country that is closely tied to Haiti through Caricom, I'll tell you Haiti is a horrid place. Cursed if you want to go that far. Voodoo, corruption, mass killings, crime, and total disrespect for outsiders. I feel no remourse when I read about their poverty etc. Trinidad and Tobago have been in horrible positions before and have had a similar history of collapsing economies in days of foreign rule etc. Through hard work, order and dedication we have emerged as a regional leader, while Haiti struggles continually because of the mentality of the people.

It is quite disrespectful to speak about Haiti so negatively. The country is beautiful, and the people are also. As another person who lives very close to Haiti, and is also a member of Caricom, I'll let you know that there would be no modern day Trinidad, Jamaica, or Cayman without Haiti.

Haiti's problems aren't anything new. But its not fair to blame it on something as the country's main religion, or your percieved (but very incorrect) notion of what the people think of you.

Haiti continues to struggle mainly because of the mentality of West Indians. We can be so selfish and stuck up sometimes it sickens me.

Haiti also doesnt have the added advantage of oil. Trinidad is lucky. Im actually really disgusted with that portion of our post. Try being a little more respectful next time.

......on the other hand.....

You are quite right, all of you, about the fact that a Haitian airline would need a larger aircraft in order to transport luggage and cargo.

I dont think that an airline like that should look to expand too quickly, and stick to the main centres of Haitian diaspora in New York, South Florida, Quebec, and Boston.
 
hawk44
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:48 pm

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 16):
It is quite disrespectful to speak about Haiti so negatively

You did the same thing and the bottom line is Haiti is a very dangerous country. It's not the only dangerous country in the world however this thread is only about Haitian aviation. You asked a question on if you think it would be possible and it may be unfortunate but do to security reasons it will not happen for a very long time.

Hawk44
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aa1818
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:31 pm

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 16):
It is quite disrespectful to speak about Haiti so negatively. The country is beautiful, and the people are also. As another person who lives very close to Haiti, and is also a member of Caricom, I'll let you know that there would be no modern day Trinidad, Jamaica, or Cayman without Haiti.

Haiti's problems aren't anything new. But its not fair to blame it on something as the country's main religion, or your percieved (but very incorrect) notion of what the people think of you.

Haiti continues to struggle mainly because of the mentality of West Indians. We can be so selfish and stuck up sometimes it sickens me.

Haiti also doesnt have the added advantage of oil. Trinidad is lucky. Im actually really disgusted with that portion of our post. Try being a little more respectful next time.

I would love to know how Haiti has helped Trinidad and Tobago apart from sapping our money over the years??? Sometimes one can be philosophical and very positive in one's thinking. However sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. My dad visited Haiti when Baby Doc ruled. He and my Grandfather were flown around the island in his helicopter around the island. I have also visited on multiple cruises as well as other vacations. I know and understand the situation there.

Trinidad is no paradise- murders kidnappings etc, but heck we're trying our darndest. Of course not the entire island is plagued by killings etc here, same as in Haiti, I'm sure there are nice areas, but the vast majority is a dump. My Geographer friends at Cambridge Uni use Haiti as a modern example of desertification- real smart Haitians- suck the earth for all it's got and let it turn to a desert!!!..hmmmmmmm

Perhaps I'm being too harsh, but it needs to be said- wake up and smell the coffee!!!

Re: Aviation- Haiti is a viable destination given the large Hispanic populations in the US. I hope somehow they manage to fund an airline- could be the only profitable airline in the region!!!!!!!!

AA1818

Have fun moving back to Haiti.
“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
 
jm017
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting MajorNelson (Reply 8):
Why would anyone else even want to fly to a horrid place like that? AA can have it.

Saying it is dangerous is a factual observation. Calling it horrid without qualification and that AA can have it is quite different. I guess my issue with this particular statement is that it's in poor taste. While the country is in bad shape (regardless of cause), there are people who visit and for whom it is HOME. People who will ship goods home in large enough quantities to warrant AA keeping an A300 on the PAP route from MIA.

Quoting MajorNelson (Reply 14):
So, Aacun -- see? It doesnt matter how 'beautiful the approach is' to a place. When the government is corrupt and their own natives are coming across to Florida floating on inner tubes and homemade pontoon boats made out of baby cribs to enter this country illegally (kinda like they do from Mexico too), then obviously their own citizens think it's a horrid place too.

This is true. I have the same though when i fly into Jamaica: beautiful country. Oh so many problems....

Quoting Caymanair (Reply 16):
I'll let you know that there would be no modern day Trinidad, Jamaica, or Cayman without Haiti.

How do you figure this?

Okay, in terms of the actual question (a new haitian airline), it would certainly need a larger aircraft to Miami, Montreal and New York. And more flights to MIA relative to FLL.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
Caymanair
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:00 am

What about some used 767's? Maybe it could fly 4 or 5x 767-300 on the following routes:

3x daily miami
9 or 10x weekly new york
5 or 6x weekly ft lauderdale
2x weekly Kingston
2 or 3x weekly montreal
2 or 3x weekly PAP-ANU/BGI/SDQ-POS

How many daily flights does AA run MIA-PAP? and JFK/FLL-PAP? Do they still do Boston?
 
aa1818
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:27 pm

Caymanair, I agree with your analysis, although I think that some of the frequencies could be increased.

Ft. Lauderdale- Daily
KIN- 4/5 weekly
ANU- 1 weekly
BGI- 2 weekly
POS- 2 wekly
SDQ- perhaps high frequency with a smaller plane like the Dash 8's. I have no clue what the traffic is like on this route.
YYZ (Toronto)- 4 weekly
YUL (Montreal)- 3 weekly
I agree with the MIA and New York frequencies.

Which airport would it most likely fly into- JFK?? EWR??

767's may be more efficient but in terms of initial acquisition- how about some A306's??? Could be acquired very cheaply and would be relatively efficient- AA still uses 'em!!!

P.s apologies for harsh comments above in previous posts. I didn't mean to offend anyone

AA1818
“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
 
Caymanair
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:58 pm

It would make more sense to fly into JFK at first at least. EWR would be a possible airport for future expansion. In terms of Caribbean flights, I would be more inclined to combine what flights I could, atleast to start out with, and expand or improve services as loads might warrant.
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:04 pm

I flew to Haiti in 1997 before things deteriorated (sic).

If you've been there, you would understand why most people with any ambition/marketable skills have decided to leave. That is the true tradgedy of Haiti.

Maybe some expatriate Haitians will organize a competitor to AA someday. It sure won't be anybody living there now.
 
Caymanair
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:55 am

Since our hypothetical airline is now set to operate 767's (or A300's), would it be possible to operate PAP-CDG? That might be a route for consideration. There is also a fairly large Haitian diaspora there.

Does Air France still fly to Haiti from France?

Seeing as I have had nothing in particular to do, I also came up with a name I think would be good: Kreyol Republik.
 
aa1818
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:39 pm

Caymanair- what do u do with your time. Perhaps you should be studying all these law cases for me!!!!

Just a side question, does AA 'rape' passengers flying into/ from Haiti with exhorbetent fares, or are they reasonable/ cheap?? I don't know which other US airlines fly into Haiti but I'm assuming AA has some presence there linking perhaps JFK, MIA, SJU and maybe even DFW?????

Cheers
AA1818
“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
 
Caymanair
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RE: Haitian Aviation/ My Idea

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:26 am

You know, i really wouldnt mind helping you with law, as long as you help me with these RIDICULOUS Finance case studies. Lol.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 25):
Just a side question, does AA 'rape' passengers flying into/ from Haiti with exhorbetent fares, or are they reasonable/ cheap?? I don't know which other US airlines fly into Haiti but I'm assuming AA has some presence there linking perhaps JFK, MIA, SJU and maybe even DFW?????

Yes and no. No fares into PAP are ever on sale, and the prices arent cheap, but not overly expensive usually. depending on time of year, an average economy seat from MIA is anywhere between $450 and 750$ US.Thats my experience though, and I've never flown from JFK or FLL to PAP. I believe AA only serves PAP from MIA, JFK, and FLL, althought I could be wrong, and they are the only American carrier that serves Haiti. ( I actually think there is a small carrier that does CAP-FLL, although Im not certain)

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