FLYACYYZ
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South American Carriers & Canada

Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:38 pm

They've come and they've gone--VA/RG/AR (to name a few), but given the resurgence in passenger traffic, and the hassles incurred with travel and visas issues into the US, why are there currently no South American carriers currently serving Canada??

The obvious destinations being: YVR/YYZ/YUL.

[Edited 2006-03-24 05:39:49]
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757MDE
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South American Carriers & Canada

Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:22 pm

Avianca has or had plans to, by now they codeshare with AC in their succesful BOG ride but I think Avianca metal could be seen in Canadá in some time...
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SLCUT2777
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South American Carriers & Canada

Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:25 pm

Probably the same reason they aren't very prevalent here in the states. Getting Category 1 status from the FAA has been a problem for many, and it's a good assumption if they run into that with the FAA they won't fare much better with Transport Canada. But marketing is something I think is lacking. AeroMexico backed out of service between SLC and MEX since they just can't seam to get US passengers onto a foreign flag carrier yet Americans fly AC all the time, and many speculate that DL will do much better with an SLC-MEX route in the very near future.
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atnight
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South American Carriers & Canada

Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:33 pm

Well, getting into Canada isn't necessarily easier than getting into the US... and since most people have friends or relatives in the US, Canada is mainly for students or leisure, which isn't the preferable destination for latin folks.... I did however hear that AC was studying the possibility of flying to UIO/GYE... which would be a first... And also, with Ecuador getting back to CAT 1 soon (so I've heard) and many other countries getting or having CAT 1, the chance of getting airlines to Canada isn't too far away....
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ANother
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South American Carriers & Canada

Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:36 pm

I believe that much of AC's recent success in Latam is due to the transatlantic & transpacific feed they get from those unwilling / unable to get a US visa to transit the US. Even Visa-waiver citizens dislike transiting the US due to TSA hassles and perceived insult of being fingerprinted / photographed.

Latam carriers don't have the same feed and Canada is a comparitivly small market. They (should) put their aircraft where they can make money.

Doesn't Cubana still serve Canada?
 
aircanada014
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South American Carriers & Canada

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:02 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 4):
Doesn't Cubana still serve Canada?

Yes Cubana still serve Canada..
 
FLYACYYZ
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South American Carriers & Canada

Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:53 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 4):
Doesn't Cubana still serve Canada?

Cubana is a CARRIBEAN based airline.
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ANother
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South American Carriers & Canada

Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:46 pm

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 6):
Cubana is a CARRIBEAN based airline.

That's funny, I thought they were based in the Caribbean. Does BWIA still fly to Canada too?
 
FLYACYYZ
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South American Carriers & Canada

Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 7):
Does BWIA still fly to Canada too?

BW offers daily service to YYZ, operating 738's and the odd 343. All flights originate or transit thru POS.

[Edited 2006-03-24 15:57:46]
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AA767400
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South American Carriers & Canada

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Thread starter):
why are there currently no South American carriers currently serving Canada??

Because let's face it my friend. There are far more Latin Americans in the United States than Canada.

Reasons? Warmer,Closer, and more popular to immigrate to.
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Cubsrule
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:33 am

It's also probably worth noting that, to the extent that there is a market, AC has it pretty well covered. AC is no AA in Latin America, but they've got a more extensive Latin American market than most other North American airlines, especially considering the lower traffic and longer distances.
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dforce1
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:38 am

Didn't Lan Chile ever fly to Canada?
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 11):
Didn't Lan Chile ever fly to Canada?

Possibly Montreal-Mirabel, but IIRC it was LADECO. Can anybody confirm??
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AR385
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:10 am

Yes, LanChile flew to Canada. I saw them repeatedly at Mirabel in the late eighties.
 
Aero
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:59 am

Indeed, LanChile used to operate SCL-JFK-YUL with 767 equipment. The route was opened after the acquisitation of Ladeco.

"As part of booking roundtrip flights which depart from US airports, Orbitz is pleased to offer airline tickets on Lan Chile, which operates a daily non-stop flight from Montreal, Canada (YUL) to New York (JFK) regularly scheduled to depart at 6:20pm and arrive at 7:58pm. Usually an Embraer RJ140 is flown for this route. The average travel time from Montreal, Canada to New York, NY is 1 hour and 38 minutes."

Rgds,
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LAN...the star of the Latin American skies
 
Cubsrule
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Aero (Reply 14):
"As part of booking roundtrip flights which depart from US airports, Orbitz is pleased to offer airline tickets on Lan Chile, which operates a daily non-stop flight from Montreal, Canada (YUL) to New York (JFK) regularly scheduled to depart at 6:20pm and arrive at 7:58pm. Usually an Embraer RJ140 is flown for this route. The average travel time from Montreal, Canada to New York, NY is 1 hour and 38 minutes."

I'm super confused. That sounds like an MQ tag to me. The times are identical to AA 4744 (now operated by an E135).
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USADreamliner
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:28 am

At one point, AR used to fly both Montreal and Toronto.


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northstardc4m
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:53 am

these are the SouthAm/Latam carriers i can remember to Canada since 1980:
*=current

VASP MD-11/maybe DC-10, YYZ
VARIG, DC-10, YYZ, YMX with 707s someone told me in the early 80s also, also short time 1-weekly 747 YVR to NRT/HKG, not even sure if it actually started.
VIASA, DC-10/occasional A300 maybe, YYZ, YUL/YMX?
Air Guyana, 707, 757, Tu-154, YYZ
LAN Chile, 767, YMX
AVIANCA, short lived 707 YMX
Guyana 2000, leased 757, YYZ
Aerolineas Argentinas, YYZ/YMX, 747SP, A310, other 747s occasionally
AeroPeru, 757, YYZ
AVENSA, YMX, 727

Aeromexico, YYZ*, 73G
Mexicana, YYZ*, YUL*, A32x
Cubana, YYZ*, YUL?, A320 TACA, previously: IL-62, Tu-154, Dc-10
TACA, YYZ*, A320
BWIA, YYZ*, 738
Air Jamaica, YYZ*, A320
Bahamasair, YMX, 727

i also remember a Guatemalan airlin that flew a Tu-134 or BAc 1-11 to YYZ in the mid 80s, and there was also at least one airline from Suriname in the late 80s with either a 707 or 757, also to YYZ, dont remember the names though.
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EddieDude
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:49 am

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 17):
Aeromexico, YYZ*, 73G
Mexicana, YYZ*, YUL*, A32x

AM's flights are no longer in the reservations system. I have no idea if AM will actually go back to YYZ this year.

As for MX, they also fly to YVR from MEX non-stop using A319's.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
northstardc4m
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:34 am

hmmm, you're right, looking again, the Am flights from YYZ all seem to be codeshares on DL... pity, i liked seeing that metal 737 here.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
TACAA320
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:04 am

Grupo TA serve YYZ from and to SAL.
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RCS763AV
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:05 am

I think that when the market on BOG-YYZ evolves a little more, we will see daily flights operated by AV and AC but that may not come until late 2006 or 2007....
 
airfrancejfk
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:40 am

Guyana Airways and Guyana Air 2000 flew into Toronto from as far back as the 1980's. Of course, all of this stopped after both airlines went bust.



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Avianca
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 21):
I think that when the market on BOG-YYZ evolves a little more, we will see daily flights operated by AV and AC but that may not come until late 2006 or 2007....

it would be great to see AV in Canada, but I think we will see first new routes to Europe and than flights to Canada due the code-share on the AC flights.
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YYZflyer
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
I have no idea if AM will actually go back to YYZ this year

I was spotting at YYZ on March 11 and there was an AM 737.
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cedarjet
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:54 am

Air Canada's Central and South American network is astounding. They have really built up a great system, which I presume is a hub radiating out of YYZ, there can't be enough O&D to justify such a network. Very impressive though, and doesn't leave much room for anyone else.
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EddieDude
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting YYZflyer (Reply 24):
I was spotting at YYZ on March 11 and there was an AM 737

It must have been a charter to CUN or something. The idea was for AM to start regularly-scheduled service between MEX and YYZ non-stop with 73W's later this year. At some point, the flights were already loaded in the reservations system, but not anymore. I hope someone can give us an update of what is happening with AM and Canada. I would be more than happy to see AM fly to YYZ non-stop again.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
Avianca
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 25):
Air Canada's Central and South American network is astounding. They have really built up a great system, which I presume is a hub radiating out of YYZ, there can't be enough O&D to justify such a network. Very impressive though, and doesn't leave much room for anyone else.

in my eyes the Air Canadas South American is not bad but not outstanding + the O&D ex Toronto isnt such small to SouthAmerica and bigger day by day.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
cayman
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 25):
Air Canada's Central and South American network is astounding. They have really built up a great system, which I presume is a hub radiating out of YYZ, there can't be enough O&D to justify such a network. Very impressive though, and doesn't leave much room for anyone else.

Clearly a significant part of the network is connecting traffic. But the O&D is bigger than you think---an ever growing pop of Colombians, Venezuelans, Ecuadorians, Peruvians, Bolivians and almost every central american nation is well represented--and to a lesser degree Argentines and Chilenos. And on top of that there is a very very large and expanding Brazilian ex pat pop in Greater Toronto, probably largest latin american group in Greater Toronto, or at least as big as the Mexcian community which is also very large.
 
bsbisland
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:09 am

I believe Air Canada was the biggest winner, after the United States started requiring visa to all passengers in traffic in 2003, and since most latin american citizens need this visa, Air Canada is by far the best choice when flying to Canada, just to avoid all the trouble for the transit in the US. They got a big stake from the American carriers for pax in Latin America going to Europe or Asia and through the U.S and are now connecting in Canada. After this GRU-YYZ was urgraded to the A343, and I believe this increase came from those reasons.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 23):
it would be great to see AV in Canada, but I think we will see first new routes to Europe and than flights to Canada due the code-share on the AC flights.

Indeed, remeber the new Euro flights are coming this year. But since the YYZ flights would be operated by 757s, this would not interfere with the Europe 767 operations.
 
PDPsol
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:02 pm

The sizeable South American carriers, LA, JJ, AV or TA [Peru] or even AR have waaay more expansion in key US destinations, ORD, LAX, JFK, IAD, ATL, etc. before even beginning to consider YYZ. I have not included RG as they are truly on life-support and stretch their resources simply operating bread-and-butter US routes.

And YUL would generate even less interest than YYZ.

- LA could add a SCL-JFK nonstop before considering YYZ
- JJ could add a third US city from GRU
- AV still has a lot of expansion in the US
- AR would need to upgrade its EZE-JFK to daily before thinking about YYZ

AC already serves LIM, SCL-EZE, GRU, CCS and BOG from YYZ. I believe SCL-EZE and GRU are 7x, while LIM, CCS and BOG operate 5x.

Of course, this only considers South American destinations, not Caribbean, Central American or Mexican cities.
 
ANother
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:44 pm

Don't forget that it was Canadian Pacific (CP Air) that opened these routes! In 1974 they had a flight YVR-MEX-ACA-LIM-SCL-BUE. DC8s (43s/63s) in those days.

Wonder if the 'overfly' USA crowd to Asia is sufficient to bring back the S. America - Vancouver flights. That would cut out a few hours! Good luck to AC.
 
aircanada014
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:43 pm

I know there will be more new destinations in South America for AC expansion.
I've mention in previous reports where AC wants to expand international and here they are for South America : Guatamala City, Quito, Guayaquil, San Salvador and Puerto Vallarta. Here's the link to AC report from last fall Sept 23,2005. Its on page 35/46. http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/in...ents/CIBC_Frontenac_conference.pdf
 
FLYACYYZ
Topic Author
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:52 pm

AirCanada014:

AC already flies seasonally to Puerto Vallarta.
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ThatPlaneGuy
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:58 pm

I agree with this:

Quoting ANother (Reply 4):
I believe that much of AC's recent success in Latam is due to the transatlantic & transpacific feed they get from those unwilling / unable to get a US visa to transit the US. Even Visa-waiver citizens dislike transiting the US due to TSA hassles and perceived insult of being fingerprinted / photographed.

Im British and I fly regularly to Peru. I used to fly on DL via ATL. Now I avoid the USA because of the hassles. My apologies to all my US friends, I dont intend to be offensive, but my last flights to LIM were with AC & with RG. It was a delight transiting through Canada and Brazil. Why can't it be like that transiting through the USA?
Its about the airlines and the planes they fly
 
2travel2know
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:19 am

It seems CM is having a hard time trying to get the Canadians to allow YYZ daily from PTY.
I'm not sure if Canada wants CM to fly to YVR and/or YUL instead of YYZ or they are not allowing daily flights to destinations there or something like that.
What I'm sure is that CM won't fly to YHM if they can't fly - as they would like it - to YYZ.
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DYK
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 32):
Wonder if the 'overfly' USA crowd to Asia is sufficient to bring back the S. America - Vancouver flights. That would cut out a few hours! Good luck to AC.

Doubtful this will happen any time soon or even a South American carrier into YVR. There is not any bi-latteral agreements with S.A. countries that allow a carrier into Vancouver, at least from a can see. I cant imagine Air Canada developing a route to S.A. from YVR, there focus is YYZ?
It would be nice to see some flights into SCL or SJO or even SAO
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2travel2know
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:27 am

Quoting DYK (Reply 37):
There is not any bi-latteral agreements with S.A. countries that allow a carrier into Vancouver, at least from a can see

For some strange reason, Panamanian airlines are supposed to have rights for YUL (then YMX) and YVR but not for YYZ.
Don't quote me on this, since I don't have all the details of a Panama-Canada bilateral (if any).
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
yow
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 11):
Didn't Lan Chile ever fly to Canada?

They still fly 763 Freighters to Canada every now and then. I know YQR gets them a few times a year.
 
ANother
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RE: South American Carriers & Canada

Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:15 pm

Quoting DYK (Reply 37):
There is not any bi-latteral agreements with S.A. countries that allow a carrier into Vancouver,

It's been over 20 years since I worked for CP Air - but I recall that the Canadian ASA 'model' was to give Canadian airlines rights from any point in Canada to 'named city in other country' - and the opposite for the designated airline of the other country. So the Peru bilateral gave the Canadians rights from a 'point in Canada' to Lima, while the Peruvians had rights from a 'point in Peru' to Toronto, Montreal (etc - depending on how good the negotiatiors were). This way CP Air could (and did) operate from both YYZ and YVR via Mexico to LIM SCL and BUE.

Even if the Canadians have renegotiated with the Peruvians - I think it would be unlikely that they would have accepted any loss in rights. But who knows, the Canadian government works in mysterious ways!