leelaw
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Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:57 am

Delta Air Lines executives say that their massive build up of a hub at New York’s JFK, along with the creation of a domestic feeder network, will make it the largest US-flag carrier on the North Atlantic.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...lds+critical+mass+in+New+York.html
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TWA902fly
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:02 am

Is Delta not already the largest transatlantic carrier? i was under that impression.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
DL787932ER
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:25 am

They're the largest U.S. - based transatlantic carrier currently. The new flights starting this summer will make them #1 overall.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:37 am

Who is the largest transatlantic non-US carrier that is the #1 overall transatlantic carrier? or would that include all routes to the carribean and south america? in which case it would make sense if it were something like BA or AF or KL. My guess is BA, is that right?

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 3):
My guess is BA, is that right?

Estimation, as a Guess

1/ British Airways
2/ Lufthansa
3/ Air France
4/ KLM
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kyair
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:40 am

"#1" using what measure? Number of flights, number of seats, destinations served, passengers carried - what? Also, the above-linked article mentions that including ATL they will have capacity "near" the equivilent to LH - that sounds like LH will have more capacity!

Also, on another current thread there's a list of BA flights to JFK and they include 4 744's, 2 777's and a 763. That's A BUNCH of capacity to overcome, but I guess once all of DLs European flights are counted they could beat that.
BA Using 767's To EWR! (by BHXDTW Mar 24 2006 in Civil Aviation)
reply #13.
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MalpensaSFO
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:47 am

With Continental and Delta nearly matching European routes 1 for 1, are things going well in Sky Team?
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PanAm747
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:51 am

Interesting article.

Quote:
Bob Cortelyou, Delta vice-president for network, said the European strategy will make many interior US cities reachable by a one-stop journey instead of the two-stop or worse itineraries now required because most competitors have limited domestic network feed.

So this means DL is going to try and build up JFK as a hub again?

Quote:
And he is not worried about competing with JetBlue Airways on domestic routes to JFK since “people are going to fly where they can get connections and frequent-flyer points to go international”.

Uh-huh...and people are going to choose tickets based on service, not cost. I have serious doubts about DL's ability to make JFK a domestic hub.

Quote:
Cortelyou said Delta is using widebodies that flyers prefer to the narrowbodied fleet that Continental uses heavily on its European network from Newark/Liberty, a rival New York City-area airport.

VERY misleading...757's are perfect for the smaller European cities where a 767 is too much capacity. And CO does use 767's and 777's on key routes.

Quote:
Delta’s SkyTeam alliance will have about one-third of transatlantic capacity, ahead of Star and oneworld with about 26% each, Fernandez said.

Isn't CO a member of Sky Team? First fellow member CO is knocked for not having wide-bodies on all the routes, but then CO's partnership is gratefully acknowledged when it comes to comparing percentages of trans-Atlantic travel.

I think clarification is needed.
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DL787932ER
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting KYAir (Reply 5):
"#1" using what measure?

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10140

Quote:
With the July 2006 schedule, Delta will be the world’s No. 1 airline in terms of departures, destinations and available seat miles between the United States and destinations across Europe, India and Israel.

Looks like DL will have the most flights, most destinations, and most capacity.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
kyair
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 8):
Looks like DL will have the most flights, most destinations, and most capacity

Thanks DL787932ER!  bigthumbsup 
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened - Dr. Seuss
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
I have serious doubts about DL's ability to make JFK a domestic hub

Yes, they are going to try and lure people to a bankrupt airline that may or may not remain in New York...  sarcastic 

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
So this means DL is going to try and build up JFK as a hub again?

For what? The third time?

When are they going to get the memo that not one airline, will ever match the power that was TWA and Pan Am at JFK...  sarcastic 

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
Isn't CO a member of Sky Team?

Yes, and offers a far more superior product than Delta on both domestic and international flights.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
fantasticflyer
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:15 am

They're taking the 767's off of the Domestic routes?  Sad I love those planes, they may not be the best for domestic travel in November or something but when I travel (July) they always seem to be packed
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:48 am

There is more than enough room for two large international US carriers in NYC. I expect it will be DL at JFK and CO at EWR. DL will make serious inroads in CO’s international dominance from NYC before CO gets enough aircraft to respond.

Unlike the usual airplane fights from NYC, DL is concentrating its growth largely on ethnic markets that have usually been served either by small flag carriers in the destination country from JFK or via codeshare on the big western European flag carriers. DL is developing markets that US carriers have only toyed with and never really developed. At this point in the world, there is more than enough room for US carriers flying to dozens more countries around the world than are currently served by US carriers. DL will cement itself in the NYC market because it is NOT trying to fly to every little city in western Europe from NYC but instead picking those markets that have value and flying them from ATL where DL has the reach to serve all of the US except the NE. Believe it or not but people connect in ATL flying from Europe to all but NYC and New England.

The only Europe must have that DL doesn’t have is London from JFK. I fully expect that DL will make a move to resolve the issue one way or the other in the next year.

I don’t think JFK-GRU is the last Latin American route you will see DL fly from NYC. If only because DL is using about 6 aircraft on transatlantic routes for summer seasonal service, they have to go somewhere so I expect you will be seeing announcements of JFK-S. America service soon. DL may not be able to serve Argentina by treaty but there are many other options available.

Beyond the six or so 767 aircraft flying seasonal summer service, DL has another 8 which can be deployed to int’l routes, many of which could be from JFK. The number of redeployable aircraft could be even higher if DL can replace its 764s flying from the west coast and SLC with something else – like non-ER 763s or ETOPS 757s, freeing up another half dozen 764s.

DL tried to serve JFK-NRT just before 9/11 w/ an MD11 and could easily reinstate it w/ a 777 esp. now that NW is not flying JFK-NRT; NW wasn’t a DL partner in 1991 when DL flew JFK-NRT. I wouldn’t be surprised if DL makes its next application for China service to be from JFK. DL’s new JNB service and possibly its TLV service could be switched back to 767s freeing up the 777s for New York-Asia.

As for the domestic flights at JFK, JetBlue is pulling back from its market share strategy which is losing money for them. DL is adding first class which is what they need to do to get connecting Business Class passengers to fly through JFK. NYC pricing will become much more rational. B6 just raised fares again.

CO very much feels threatened by DL’s international growth as evidenced by the rumors (likely true) that CO is shopping for short-term widebodies. AA is really threatened because they have very little expansion capability and AA will only have serve JFK markets that DL doesn’t serve to London, EZE, ZRH, and NRT. DL could shorten that list pretty quickly.

Don’t kid yourself about DL and CO cooperating out of NYC just because they are in Skyteam. CO has no place to go for another alliance as long as US stays in Star but if anything changes in alliance world, CO and DL could go their separate ways. And it should be apparent now that DL and CO will never merge because of their extensive NYC overlap.

DL will succeed very well in NYC and NYC will figure prominently in how the industry shakes out in the future. AA, CO, and DL have NYC. UA and NW largely do not and US only has a fragile domestic position.
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
. I expect it will be DL at JFK and CO at EWR.

Rethink that one to AA/B6 at JFK and CO at EWR...

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
, DL is concentrating its growth largely on ethnic markets that have usually been served either by small flag carriers in the destination country from JFK or via codeshare on the big western European flag carriers.

Yeah that is why they have not touched places like Limassol, Karachi, Islamabad, Bratislava, Amman, and Beirut...  no 

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
I don’t think JFK-GRU is the last Latin American route you will see DL fly from NYC.

GRU via JFK from Delta, give it a year at best...

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
DL tried to serve JFK-NRT just before 9/11 w/ an MD11 and could easily reinstate it w/ a 777 esp. now that NW is not flying JFK-NRT;

With what money?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
NW wasn’t a DL partner in 1991 when DL flew JFK-NRT.

2001...  wink 

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
CO very much feels threatened by DL’s international growth as evidenced by the rumors (likely true) that CO is shopping for short-term widebodies.

Is that why Continental has such a supeior product to Delta Airlines?
Is that why CO got China over Delta?
When was the last time Business Elite one an award?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
DL will succeed very well in NYC and NYC will figure prominently in how the industry shakes out in the future.

How will they fight of AA and CO in the long term... Cash is short!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
Believe it or not but people connect in ATL flying from Europe to all but NYC and New England

Yes so many people in California love the bowels of the toilet known as ATL.. sarcastic 

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
DL could shorten that list pretty quickly

With what money?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
I fully expect that DL will make a move to resolve the issue one way or the other in the next year

With what money?
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jfklganyc
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:11 am

AA will never beat DL at JFK in terms of European destinations served!

You have to understand, in terms of hubs, AA is not CO and it's not DL.

CO and DL put NYC ahead of most other cities in the US in terms of importance of int'l flights. For int'l flights only ATL is bigger for DL. Nothing is bigger than EWR for CO.

For AA, the emphasis will always be ORD, MIA, and DFW when looking to grow. JFK gets the 'important' routes and the scraps left from three other hubs.

DL and CO continue to place utmost importance on new routes from JFK and EWR respectively.

Even for all of DLs build ups and cutbacks at JFK; one can not fault them for trying. It shows that they really want JFK to work. And for the most part, they do make it work.

For each build up and subsequent cutback, JFK has gained more service than it lost and even before this next build up, JFK has never been bigger for DL.

AA, despite its $1billion terminal, just doesn't have the flight commitment to JFK that DL has.

Don't know why, they inherited TWA just as DL inherited Pan Am.

PJ
 
fewsolarge
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
Yes so many people in California love the bowels of the toilet known as ATL..  

Way to tie poop into the discussion. Bonus points.
 
D950
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:54 am

Would it not be smart, since they want to expand JFK again, to cosolidate the LGA operation into JFK and perhaps if possible to,sell or lease the LGA gates to generate some revenue, or are they able to do that??
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:01 am

few,
there are people who try so hard to deny the truth. They are the ones that are the most fun to watch when they are proven wrong. Yes, it's possible a route or two from JFK won't work but you can be sure those planes will be redeployed someplace else... maybe even AMM, BEY, or KHI, although KHI looks a little tenuous politically. How about PRG instead of BTS?

And don't forget that AA will have costs on the upper end of the spectrum...right up there w/ UA... once DL and NW get out of BK.
 
panamair
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 10):
When are they going to get the memo that not one airline, will ever match the power that was TWA and Pan Am at JFK...

Usual fallacy - DL's presence at JFK (# of flights, # of destinations served) even now (before the upcoming summer expansion) is bigger than TW or PA's ever were during their heyday. Just because TW and PA are JFK icons doesn't mean they were powerful and large (yes, large in the symbolic sense but not in the physical sense). Even without the new summer flights, DL has over 90 daily flights out of JFK (this will go up to over 135 dailies this summer); PA at its peak in the late eighties had only about 60-70+ daily flights. PA of course served more international destinations out of JFK than DL currently does (the difference being some Carribean destinations; Europe they're pretty equal) but DL certainly offers more domestic destinations and frequency than PA ever did.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:06 am

...and there was no such thing as alliances in the current sense in PA's days. Because PA never flew the 767 and basically only used the 747 for longhaul flights, DL's 767s will push DL's reach from NYC much farther than PA DL. TW used the 767 successfully from NYC but it was already too late for serious market development.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:23 am

Lest we forget that from 1998- the end, TWA was had a pathetically small operation at JFK. They were a shell of their former self. It was sad to watch.

I remember them ending service to:

CLE
DTW
ORD
BOS
DCA
TPA
FLL
PBI
MXP
FCO
MAD
BCN
ATH

All within like 2 years.

PJ
 
db373
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:00 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
Rethink that one to AA/B6 at JFK and CO at EWR...



Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
GRU via JFK from Delta, give it a year at best...



Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
With what money?



Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
Yes so many people in California love the bowels of the toilet known as ATL..

Wow. Someone's going through their monthly cycle....
Keep Delta My Delta
 
COERJ145
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:10 am

If CO wanted to expand, why not merge with AS? CO could use some west coast/pacific NW service/hubs, and AS needs east coast service. Also, with AS going all 737, it would fit in nicely with CO's large 737 fleet. With both airlines offering similar products, I see a win-win situation with a CO/AS merger. Also, with the AS 739s and 738s, CO could possibly free up some 752s for international service.

[Edited 2006-03-25 00:11:22]

[Edited 2006-03-25 00:19:16]
 
incitatus
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
DL will cement itself in the NYC market because it is NOT trying to fly to every little city in western Europe from NYC but instead picking those markets that have value and flying them from ATL where DL has the reach to serve all of the US except the NE.

Delta is not cementing itself in Western Europe simply because it cannot compete with the likes of Continental, American, British Airways and even its partner Air France. So it has to go look for "ethnic" markets, a.k.a., less competitive.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
I don’t think JFK-GRU is the last Latin American route you will see DL fly from NYC.

It is unlikely that Delta can make money on JFK-GRU, much less JFK-EZE or JFK-GIG.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
AA is really threatened because they have very little expansion capability and AA will only have serve JFK markets that DL doesn’t serve to London, EZE, ZRH, and NRT. DL could shorten that list pretty quickly.

Whether Delta can serve those markets profitably is another story entirely.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
there are people who try so hard to deny the truth.

 checkmark 

Good luck to Delta on its nth effort to expand in NY.
Conservatives against Trump
 
MarkATL
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
Yes so many people in California love the bowels of the toilet known as ATL..

Who pissed your Wheaties today? As someone who was born and raised in San Francisco (well born in Redwood City and raised in Palo Alto and San Francisco) I gotta tell ya....San Francisco ain't all it cracked up to be. Also, Atlanta where I live, now is a much more livable place than the Bay Area. I meet lots of California refugees all the time who all say the same thing..."thank god we got out of there" and "great place to visit, lousy place to live". So tell me since your such an expert. How well do you know Atlanta?
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
AA is really threatened because they have very little expansion capability and AA will only have serve JFK markets that DL doesn’t serve to London, EZE, ZRH, and NRT. DL could shorten that list pretty quickly.

No they couldn't. Without access to LHR, DL has no real chance at the London market unless they want a bunch of low-yield tourists going to STN. There are no frequencies available between the US and Argentina, so DL can't expand at EZE. DL has no slots at NRT, so they can't expand there and getting more would be nearly impossible. So, ZRH is the only one they could add.

As for the domestic expansion, DL's past would indicate that most of the routes will fail within a year or two. DL is just about to terminate SAT-JFK, a route they launched only a few months ago.
 
WesternA318
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 10):
When are they going to get the memo that not one airline, will ever match the power that was TWA and Pan Am at JFK...



Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 10):
Yes, and offers a far more superior product than Delta on both domestic and international flights.

Amen! Preach on Malpensa!  pray 

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 14):
Don't know why, they inherited TWA just as DL inherited Pan Am.

Correction: DL did not inherit PA, they took over what was left.

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 22):
If CO wanted to expand, why not merge with AS? CO could use some west coast/pacific NW service/hubs, and AS needs east coast service. Also, with AS going all 737, it would fit in nicely with CO's large 737 fleet. With both airlines offering similar products, I see a win-win situation with a CO/AS merger. Also, with the AS 739s and 738s, CO could possibly free up some 752s for international service.

Why would we need a hub that far up in the northwest?
 
gift4tbone
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 25):
As for the domestic expansion, DL's past would indicate that most of the routes will fail within a year or two. DL is just about to terminate SAT-JFK, a route they launched only a few months ago.

Well, personally I'm looking forward to this JFK domestic expansion. I do believe they will have to pick which cities to serve from, particularly big business areas. Maybe a PHX-JFK, since there is the lack of european service, and I'm assuming by the article that the 76s to ATL will be downgraded. So this could free up more seats, they would however be is direct competition domestically speaking with US (west). I've visited SAT for a week, and please don't anyone take this the wrong way, but they don't seem to be a huge business market. I could be wrong, but some cities, you can just tell if its a big business city.

But, what I don't see here, is the physical room for this expansion at JFK. They use terminal 3, if I remember from my trip back in Nov. Where will they fit all these flights? I can only recall a handful of gates, and with these being INTL flights, the turnarounds are a lot longer, right? Will there be more room with the decrease/cease in Song ops? (that begins in May, right?)

It seemed to me that JFK had a LOT of empty terminal space, are there plans in the works for DL to get some of that? Or is it really not empty space?

*A little off the topic, but I have a question about the intl flights from JFK. Is it set up like BOS and I believe ORD, where there is (just picking a number) 10 intl gates, and the airlines take whatever is available? (of course, that is unless they belong to an alliance, then they go to those gates, right? assuming they have customs?)*

-Tony@PVD
Top 3 airports: PVD 23.9%(138 flights), PHL 14.7%(85 flights), PHX 10.2%(59 flights)
 
rwsea
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 22):
If CO wanted to expand, why not merge with AS? CO could use some west coast/pacific NW service/hubs, and AS needs east coast service. Also, with AS going all 737, it would fit in nicely with CO's large 737 fleet. With both airlines offering similar products, I see a win-win situation with a CO/AS merger. Also, with the AS 739s and 738s, CO could possibly free up some 752s for international service.

Off topic, but I hope AS is not acquired by CO. Every other airline based on the west coast has had their route network decimated when being bought out (Western, Reno Air, PSA all come to mind). SEA and PDX are well served by AS and all the flights that they offer up and down the coast, and throughout the Pacific Northwest. Now if CO wanted to add flights to Asia from SEA, and codeshare with AS for connecting traffic, that would be a different story.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 23):
Delta is not cementing itself in Western Europe simply because it cannot compete with the likes of Continental, American, British Airways and even its partner Air France. So it has to go look for "ethnic" markets, a.k.a., less competitive.

What are you talking about? I don't think you know. DL is extremely strong in Western Europe, even from JFK (this summer they will fly to DUB, SNN, MAN, BCN, MAD, NCE, CDG, AMS, FRA, TXL, FCO, MXP, and VCE in Western Europe). The only US-based carrier with more destinations out of NYC is CO. I won't even mention all the flights from ATL to Western Europe.
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Gift4tbone (Reply 27):
It seemed to me that JFK had a LOT of empty terminal space, are there plans in the works for DL to get some of that? Or is it really not empty space?

What Delta says and what Delta does are two different things..
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
dallas74
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:50 am

Given the fact that the Delta Pilots Union is calling for a "practice strike" next week most of what is being discussed here could become rather moot. Who is going to book a summer vacation with an airline on the brink. Uncertainty killed Pan Am and TWA and it's not going to be any kinder to Delta I am sad to say.
 
WesternA318
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 28):
Off topic, but I hope AS is not acquired by CO. Every other airline based on the west coast has had their route network decimated when being bought out (Western, Reno Air, PSA all come to mind).

Umm, just to clarify, DL didn't really dismantle Western's SLC hub, just turned over A LOT of the regional routes to Skywest/ASA.
 
incitatus
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 28):
What are you talking about? I don't think you know. DL is extremely strong in Western Europe, even from JFK (this summer they will fly to DUB, SNN, MAN, BCN, MAD, NCE, CDG, AMS, FRA, TXL, FCO, MXP, and VCE in Western Europe). The only US-based carrier with more destinations out of NYC is CO. I won't even mention all the flights from ATL to Western Europe.

Delta has a small presence in the main transatlantic routes out of JFK. For example, how is it that DL only has one daily JFK-CDG and one JFK-FRA?
Conservatives against Trump
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
Yeah that is why they have not touched places like Limassol,

You mean Larnaca? Limassol doesn't have an airport.

In any case, if any airline offered service from JFK/EWR to LCA at a reasonable rate (~$800 r/t), I'd be on that flight a couple of times a year.

JetBluefan1
 
gift4tbone
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:25 pm

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting Dallas74 (Reply 30):
Given the fact that the Delta Pilots Union is calling for a "practice strike" next week most of what is being discussed here could become rather moot. Who is going to book a summer vacation with an airline on the brink. Uncertainty killed Pan Am and TWA and it's not going to be any kinder to Delta I am sad to say.

I would agree with you, except one thing, Well I don't remember PA's BK, but I do remember TWs, and it was much more widely broadcast, even 2 sec blurps on local news stations. DLs BK on the other hand, has been publicized, but not as much so as TW's or even currently NW's. So in the sense of public opinion, I don't think DL will feel the pain as much as NW, who is still recovering from the snowstorm incident @ DTW. People still booked with DH, even though, we all knew they were a goner. (sad to say)

-Tony@PVD
Top 3 airports: PVD 23.9%(138 flights), PHL 14.7%(85 flights), PHX 10.2%(59 flights)
 
rwsea
Posts: 2478
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 31):
Umm, just to clarify, DL didn't really dismantle Western's SLC hub, just turned over A LOT of the regional routes to Skywest/ASA.

Who said anything about SLC? I was referring to LAX.
 
COERJ145
Posts: 1140
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:22 am

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting Dallas74 (Reply 30):
Given the fact that the Delta Pilots Union is calling for a "practice strike" next week most of what is being discussed here could become rather moot. Who is going to book a summer vacation with an airline on the brink. Uncertainty killed Pan Am and TWA and it's not going to be any kinder to Delta I am sad to say.

Yea, uncertainty made me switch from DL to AA from BOS to SAN and back, over april break. It also convinced me to exchange my NW award ticket from TUS to BOS from DL to NW flights.
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4581
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:30 am

By October 1986, when DL purchased Western, WA was slowly eliminating flights (aside from Mexico, Hawaii, Alaska) and moving everything, including HQ offices, to SLC and further develop the hub here. Yes, it was still a major focus for Western, but SLC was the big hub for them. So, in turn DL did not decimate the LAX hub, Western was already pulling the proverbial plug.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:29 am

It is possible that DL added SAT as a "preventive measure" in the event that someone else might have added it from JFK. Since "someone else" hasn't added and DL isn't doing as well because SAT is not a business market as was mentioned (although it is headquarters of AT&T), DL might have decided that the very few E170s can better be used elsewhere. DL's JFK strategy is not one of blanketing service to western Europe but of covering what is needed to the top destinations and adding places that no other US airline serves - such as in Eastern Europe etc.

DL and the pilots will reach an agreement. We're talking lots of hot air because serious money is at stake but neither party is going to shoot the other in the end.

For those that right off STN, remember that LGW was an armpit 25 years ago when it was the only option for US expansion to London. Nobody calls LGW an armpit anymore. And by the way, DL has higher average fares from ATL and CVG to LGW and CO from EWR to LGW than UA has from JFK to LHR. LHR is not the ticket to unlimited wealth. And we still have not determined definitely whether DL can or cannot serve JFK-LGW. Only a few airline execs and DOT officials and their British counterparts can answer that with certainty because Bermuda II and its amendments are so convoluted.

I don't think DL is finished with its plans for LAX. We've seen new BDL, CMH, and RDU service in the last year. Remember also that Western did have regional partners - some of their routes were never capable of being served by mainline aircraft. Better to use an RJ than dump the service.
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3784
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:34 pm

Speaking of building critical mass in NYC, has everyone seen the new OOH advertising that DL has been using? Personally, I find it quite nice - gives an idea of the new branding of Delta (flowing graduated colors similar to Song, coupled with the strong red/blue DL widget and font). Also, find it very similar to the witty tonality Delta originally established with Song and has been since adapting over at Delta.

There's a ton of bus-shelters, 30-sheets, taxi adverts and posters around town. Can't wait to see more of it.

75 more years!
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
planetime
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:55 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 10):
When are they going to get the memo that not one airline, will ever match the power that was TWA and Pan Am at JFK...

What international routes did Pan Am have from JFK?
 
aaden
Posts: 785
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:49 am

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:15 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 29):
What Delta says and what Delta does are two different things..

 checkmark 

Quoting Dallas74 (Reply 30):
Given the fact that the Delta Pilots Union is calling for a "practice strike" next week most of what is being discussed here could become rather moot. Who is going to book a summer vacation with an airline on the brink. Uncertainty killed Pan Am and TWA and it's not going to be any kinder to Delta I am sad to say.

delta does appear to be on it's way out.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
Rethink that one to AA/B6 at JFK and CO at EWR...

thats right AAs got the cash
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:54 am

it would seem it's time for AA to pay down some debt... holding that much cash is very costly in interest payments. Unless it wants to go out and buy some planes real fast to fill that beautful new terminal. B6 and DL are moving planes to NYC. What's AA doing?

planetime,
Pan Am was particularly strong to Germany, southern, central, and eastern Europe (not too much northern Europe). Of course they also had London and Tokyo both of which were sold to UA, NRT in the late 80s and LHR just before DL bought the rest of the transatlantic operation and the Shuttle.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 2):
They're the largest U.S. - based transatlantic carrier currently. The new flights starting this summer will make them #1 overall.

They're not even close. They may serve a large number of destinations, but AA's transatlantic RPMs are almost twice Delta's.

N
 
DL787932ER
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:27 pm

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 43):
They're not even close.

I posted my source in reply 8 of this thread. If you have a contradictory source, would you care to post it, and explain why it should be believed and not DL?
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 44):
explain why it should be believed and not DL?

Delta

The Bankrupt Airline?
The Suddenly International Airline?
The Pilot Union Issue Airline?
The Bankrupt Airline?
The Identity Crisis Airline?
The We Are Broke But Have New Uniforms Airline?
The Bankrupt Airline?


Quoting Gigneil (Reply 43):
but AA's transatlantic RPMs are almost twice Delta's.

If not more...  wink 
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
MarkATL
Posts: 490
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:07 am

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:11 am

MalpensaSFO,

We get the point, you hate Delta. I've never understood how people get so emotional about they're favorite/unfavaorite airlines. They're corporate entities, nothing more.
 
User avatar
Aisak
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:56 pm

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:33 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 32):
Delta has a small presence in the main transatlantic routes out of JFK. For example, how is it that DL only has one daily JFK-CDG and one JFK-FRA?

mmm... CDG could be a sort of agreement between AF and DL.
Notice there are 4 AF and 1 DL for CDG-JFK
and there are 4 DL and 1 AF for ATL-CDG

It's easier for DL to have more flights from ATL-hub than JFK so maybe they somehow shared the routes

For FRA-JFK there are 3 LH flights (not all of them daily) and 1 SQ (not sure if daily). Must be a hard route regarding there's so little traffic since DL has only 1 flight and AA hasn't any.
 
DL787932ER
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:27 pm

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:47 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 45):

What a silly post. Yes, DL is bankrupt, just like NW, like UA just was for three years, just like CO and US twice each. Yes, they have issues with the pilot union, like every other airline in the country. Yes, their new uniforms will happen to arrive before they exit bankruptcy. But they have probably the strongest identity of any U.S. airline, and they've been flying internationally for six decades.

What does any of that have to do with why they as a source should be less trusted than an anonymous Internet post? Either show with evidence why DL is wrong, or go back under your bridge.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Delta Builds Critical Mass In New York

Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 44):
I posted my source in reply 8 of this thread. If you have a contradictory source, would you care to post it, and explain why it should be believed and not DL?

Actually I was wrong.

While AA and UA both have over twice as many international RPMs and ASMs, DL, AA, and UA are almost identical in terms of transatlantic RPMs and ASMs for Jan 2006.

AA leads in transatlantic ASMs (1,864,137). DL leads in transatlantic RPMs (1,334,584). United leads in transatlantic load factor (74.9).

N

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