TWA902fly
Topic Author
Posts: 2869
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:43 am

I noticed that all United flights to Europe have a block time ending in 8 minutes. For example:

UA 941 FRA-ORD 9 hours 08 minutes
UA 959 LHR-ORD 8 hours 38 minutes
UA 949 LHR-ORD 8 hours 38 minutes
UA 909 AMS-ORD 9 hours 08 minutes
UA 947 AMS-IAD 8 hours 18 minutes
UA 935 LHR-LAX 11 hours 18 minutes
UA 943 CDG-ORD 9 hours 28 minutes
UA 901 FRA-SFO 11 hours 28 minutes
UA 951 BRU-IAD 8 hours 38 minutes

SFO-LHR, MUC-ORD flights seem to end in 3 minutes

UA 955 LHR-SFO 10 hours 53 minutes
UA 931 LHR-SFO 11 hours 03 minutes
UA 907 MUC-ORD 9 hours 53 minutes

Somebody in the scheduling department having a bit too much fun?
(yes i know i have too much time on my hands)

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
nosedive
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RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:08 pm

Wow, boredom for $100, Alex!
 
swank300
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:37 am

RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:19 pm

Hey can someone explain why it takes almost the same amount of time to go from LHR-LAX and from Fra-SFO? Shouldn't the london-lax route be shorter?
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting Swank300 (Reply 2):
Hey can someone explain why it takes almost the same amount of time to go from LHR-LAX and from Fra-SFO? Shouldn't the london-lax route be shorter?

Los Angeles is more to the south and that's why they are about the same despite Frankfurt being further east than London.

It's a bit difficult to explain, it's because the earth is a globe (specifically an oblate sphere). My suggestion is to get a globe of the earth, get a string and hold one end of the string over Frankfurt and the other over San Francisco, then do the same for London and Los Angeles.

It'll make sense then.

Also, check out this website:

http://gc.kls2.com

You get these numbers:

LHR-LAX 4741 nm
FRA-SFO 4952 nm

The distances as you can see are pretty similar.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
AeroWesty
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Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 3):
Los Angeles is more to the south and that's why they are about the same despite Frankfurt being further east than London.

That really doesn't make a whole lot of sense, I don't think, since LAX is also about 200 miles east of SFO (draw a line due north from downtown LA, and it'll hit Reno, NV). This is why SF is closer to Hawaii than LA, because SF is so much further west, even though it's north of LA.

The major differences in block times have to do with traffic on the ground and taxi time relative to the time of day and departure point, routing, and plane type. If you notice, UA955 and UA901 are 747's, UA931 and UA935 are 777's, and when UA939 comes onto the schedule with a 767, the block time increases by 20 minutes over the 777 flight.

A lot of variables there.
International Homo of Mystery
 
BA
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RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:18 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
That really doesn't make a whole lot of sense, I don't think, since LAX is also about 200 miles east of SFO (draw a line due north from downtown LA, and it'll hit Reno, NV). This is why SF is closer to Hawaii than LA, because SF is so much further west, even though it's north of LA.

I'm glad you are thinking, but you are making this more complicated than it has to be. To make it simple, ask yourself. Is Los Angeles more to the east of San Francisco or is it more to the south of San Francisco?

It is more to the south than it is east, so for the sake of simplicity, consider it south.

Because it is further to the south, Los Angeles is farther from Europe than San Francisco is.

Take a look at this map and you will see what I mean:
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:37 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 5):
but you are making this more complicated than it has to be.

Nah, don't think I am. Remember, you're comparing a 211-mile and 10 minute difference between FRA-SFO (on a 747) and LHR-LAX (on a 777), and trying to justify the difference being due to LA being more southerly, without taking into consideration that there's a 90-mile and 15 minute difference when comparing the same aircraft for LHR-SFO and LHR-LAX.

The difference isn't solely due to LAX being more southerly, is my point.
International Homo of Mystery
 
BA
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
Remember, you're comparing a 211-mile and 10 minute difference between FRA-SFO (on a 747) and LHR-LAX (on a 777), and trying to justify the difference being due to LA being more southerly

If LAX wasn't as far south as it is, than the difference in distance would actually be more than 211 nautical miles.

To put this in perspective, compare FRA-SFO with LHR-SFO. The difference is 288 nautical miles.

The reason why there is a 77 nautical mile difference is because of Los Angeles' more southern location.

LHR-LAX is farther than LHR-SFO.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
without taking into consideration that there's a 90-mile and 15 minute difference when comparing the same aircraft for LHR-SFO and LHR-LAX.

Yes, again... that's because of Los Angeles' more southern location, therefore LHR-LAX is a longer distance than LHR-SFO.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
The difference isn't solely due to LAX being more southerly, is my point.

Yes, there are many other variables that could be included. Both LHR and FRA are heavily congested airports and thats why there are many delays and long taxi times. However, I am here talking about distance.

LAX's more southern location makes its proximity from LHR/FRA farther than SFO's proximity from LHR/FRA.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:35 pm

so why is it then that sfo-syd is actually shorter than Lax Syd, one would thank that since LA is further south, that is it closer to Australia, yet, Sfo-syd is a shorter flight, distance wise
Yes, I'd like to see airbus go under so Boeing can have their customers!
 
TWA902fly
Topic Author
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RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:54 pm

you guys start your own topic about why cant you move LA closer to Frankfurt, while my question was light hearted i was sort of actually wondering if theres a reasoning behind the 3 and 8 minute schedules?

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:42 pm

I must retract a previous statement I made.

LAX is actually approximately 0.3 degrees more to the east of SFO than it is south.

I just ooked up the longitude and latitude coordinates of both and compared them.

Sorry for any misunderstanding or confusion caused.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
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RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:01 pm

You missed the JFK-LHR flights, which are 7:18 going eastbound, and 7:48 going westbound.

That is interesting, I have no idea why they do that.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
BA
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:10 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
That is interesting, I have no idea why they do that.

My guess is standardization.

They're trying to keep things simple by going with specific intervals ending in 8.

It's easier to read and interpret this way.

Not sure why SFO-LHR and MUC-ORD are exceptions ending in 3 as TWA902fly found out however...
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
bistro1200
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 7:13 am

RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 9):
you guys start your own topic about why cant you move LA closer to Frankfurt, while my question was light hearted i was sort of actually wondering if theres a reasoning behind the 3 and 8 minute schedules?

Actually the reason is that the block time is now computed to the minute, instead of rounding to the nearest 5 minute mark. This used to give "pretty" departure times (1430, 1805, etc). Most airports are slot-controlled outside the US, and the departure or arrival time in those airports cannot change, thus the US-side of the times changes since most US airports that support UA's international service don't have slots or are not as restrictive. The fact that they all end in :03 or :08 is coincidence.

It is a cost-saving move, since now it has the effect of shortening the block time. Remember the additional minutes were added just make the times end on a :00 or :05. It also has the benefit of a few minutes of additional connecting time.
Measure to the millimeter, mark with a crayon, cut with an axe.
 
TWA902fly
Topic Author
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RE: United Summer European Schedules - Too Much Fun?

Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Bistro1200 (Reply 13):
Actually the reason is that the block time is now computed to the minute, instead of rounding to the nearest 5 minute mark. This used to give "pretty" departure times (1430, 1805, etc). Most airports are slot-controlled outside the US, and the departure or arrival time in those airports cannot change, thus the US-side of the times changes since most US airports that support UA's international service don't have slots or are not as restrictive. The fact that they all end in :03 or :08 is coincidence.

You know thats a pretty big freakin coincidence. Plus BRU, MUC etc are not slot controlled. I am not sure i'll go with your answer. LHR i would believe... but the other ones?

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on

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