amirs
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Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:07 am

Airbus will be back in TLV this week to discuss with LY the possibilities of replacing the aging 767's with new A350's.
This will be the second meeting this month.
A second meeting would mean the parties are getting serious.
I just hope it is a stunt to pressure Boeing to offer the 787 at a better price.
 
Leskova
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:12 am

While I'd really like to see El Al flying something else than Boeings for a change, I just don't see it happening with the A350...

Then again, with the changes in El Al's ownership, who knows what's possible.

Regards,
Frank
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manni
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting Amirs (Thread starter):
I just hope it is a stunt to pressure Boeing to offer the 787 at a better price.


Most likely scenario. Unbelievable that Airbus is actually wasting time talking to them. Last time all went well too, untill the always interfering American governement told LY to order differently. Having said that, with LY being privatised, Airbus might have a change (out of a 100000 that is) selling aircraft to them. How many aircraft is it for anyway?
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FCKC
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:43 am

This is a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As Manni said , i think Airbus will be well inspired NOT wasting time with LY.
No way for LY to purchase European products , Uncle Sam will not authorise them to do so.
 
levg79
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 3):
No way for LY to purchase European products , Uncle Sam will not authorise them to do so.

LY is not owned by Uncle Sam, so they are free to do what they wish. However this seems a bit strange that LY is considering an Airbus product because their fleet has been strictly Boeing up until now. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Leo.
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MEA-707
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 4):
LY is not owned by Uncle Sam, so they are free to do what they wish.

Still the US and Israeli government have a million ways to make El Al's life miserable if they even THINK of buying Airbus. Can't believe Airbus is wasting their time again, since El Al cancelled buying A-332s a few years ago on the last moment.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
PM
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 3):
No way for LY to purchase European products , Uncle Sam will not authorise them to do so.

Well, they put RR engines on their 757s and, more recently, chose RR again for their 777s when, as I recall, they were under intense pressure to buy American. So, they have been known to disregard Uncle Sam and may do so again.

By all accounts, they were very interested in the A330 a few years back. That deal came to nothing but it appeared to be more than a bargaining ploy to get a better price out of Boeing. (Apart from anything else, they didn't order any Boeings in lieu of the proposed A330s which is why they are talking again to Airbus.)

An Airbus buy by LY out of the question? I wouldn't say so.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Last time all went well too, untill the always interfering American governement told LY to order differently

It's very funny that everybody seems to find quite "normal" and "natural" those American pressures, while at the same time, the same people are calling "big scandal" the "so called" pressures from the E-U (or X European Governement) on an airline to buy Airbus ....

Back to the topic, I doubt the U.S will allow LY to buy Airbus one day with the billion of $ of subsidies poured each year by the the American Administration onto Israël.
 
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breiz
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Amirs (Thread starter):
I just hope it is a stunt to pressure Boeing to offer the 787 at a better price.

Last time El Al was requesting offers from Boeing and Airbus, Airbus refused to waste their time, declined and explained why publicly.
May be this time, El Al has given assurance that it will be fair play.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:12 am

I really doubt LY is intrested in 350, eventhou I´m cheerleader for u-know-who. 787s looks more like a reality IMO..

Micke//SWE  twocents 
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
767-332ER
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
Back to the topic, I doubt the U.S will allow LY to buy Airbus one day with the billion of $ of subsidies poured each year by the the American Administration onto Israël.

And yet all the money that has rolled into US Airways and United as a result of Ch.11 and they were certainly free to buy Airbuses. My my, but you guys seem to be stuck on Uncle Sam wanting to get busier pressuring a smaller, foreign carrier that's 5,000 miles away on buying a few Boeings rather than forcing one of their own here in the U.S. receiving direct dollars from the gov't.

You guys just sometimes do not make sense. LY is doing what they should do, which is shop around. Remember IB? According to your theory, any carrier that purchases Boeing or decides to operate Boeing solely is pressured by the U.S gov't, while any carrier that decides to be a sole Airbus operator is just wise.

Get off your bias guys.
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Glom
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:06 am

A350 at LY is about as likely as 787 at IB.
 
Thorben
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:08 am

Airbus should always try to sell planes to airlines, no matter what the stakes are. Speaking of political pressure.

a) Does anybody really think the US will stop helping Israel when a private company buys a better European product instead of the American competitor?

b) Is the US the only one supporting Israel, or doesn't the EU do a lot for them, as well?

I think the A350 would look just fine in their livery. Same as the A380 (JFK-TLV?)
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
FlySSC
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 10):
And yet all the money that has rolled into US Airways and United as a result of Ch.11 and they were certainly free to buy Airbuses.

The big difference is that USAir or United are private companies, and American companies, employing thousands and thousands of U.S Citizens. They received this money under very particular circumstances and conditions, according to the American law.
Israël has been under the Billions $ perfusions from the U.S for almost 60 years. This money goes to a State, a Government ... which still owns LY and will buy aircraft for it. And there, this is all about Politics.
 
keesje
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 10):
LY is doing what they should do, which is shop around.


Friday December 17, 1999

Albright presses Israel to order U.S.-made airplanes, engines

WASHINGTON (JTA) -- During her recent visit to Israel, U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright gave a not-so-subtle-hint: Buy
Albright issued the warning because Israel's national airline, El Al, plans to buy European-made planes and engines.


http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-.../245/format/html/displaystory.html

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 10):
Get off your bias guys.

I guess this was no bias, but reality.

Like in many recent deals talk about performance & technical superiority is window dressing. Landing rights, trade deficits, political powerplay doesn´t surface, but plays a major role in many orders, unfortunately..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
CRGsFuture
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:05 am

I think we all know that LY is buying Boeing Aircraft, weither it is the 787 is another story but I think it will be Boeing.
Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
 
columba
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:47 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Unbelievable that Airbus is actually wasting time talking to them.

Airbus would be a fool not to deal with them. El Al is not state owened and they can buy whatever they want.
If there is a slight chance to win a long time Boeing customer Airbus should take it. It is easier to sell A350s to LY than A320s to WN.
It seems for most of us that the 777/787 combo is being the superior package over the A340/A350 - just look at the sales of last year.
It is now Airbus time to react and show that this is not true and that they also offer a equivalent or even better product, what could be better if winning El Al an airline everyone would think new aircraft deals would be in Boeing´s pockets.
The advantage of El Al is also clear they would get a very good deal from Airbus and on future deals Boeing has to take them more serious.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
LY777
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:18 pm

they have just ordered 2 more 777s, so the A350 would not make sense
Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
 
PM
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:40 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 17):
they have just ordered 2 more 777s, so the A350 would not make sense

Not the A359, perhaps, but why not the A358 as a replacement for the 767s?
 
airA380
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
Well, they put RR engines on their 757s and, more recently, chose RR again for their 777s when, as I recall, they were under intense pressure to buy American. So, they have been known to disregard Uncle Sam and may do so again.

By all accounts, they were very interested in the A330 a few years back. That deal came to nothing but it appeared to be more than a bargaining ploy to get a better price out of Boeing. (Apart from anything else, they didn't order any Boeings in lieu of the proposed A330s which is why they are talking again to Airbus.)

An Airbus buy by LY out of the question? I wouldn't say so.

If that is true then all European airline should be banned from buying Boeing...Government shouldn't interfere in this business...airline should be able choose which plane they want in with their market and business strategy.PERIOD
I'm flying without wings!!!!!!!!
 
Joni
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 4):

LY is not owned by Uncle Sam, so they are free to do what they wish. However this seems a bit strange that LY is considering an Airbus product because their fleet has been strictly Boeing up until now.

In Israel, many things are ultimately linked up despite what the ownership relations may look like. When El Al was buying 4 A330s, Madelaine Albright (then the US foreign secretary) told them to drop them, and drop them they did.
 
LY777
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:00 pm

joni, this is exactly what keesje has wroten  Wink
Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
 
gkirk
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Last time all went well too, untill the always interfering American governement told LY to order differently.

Don't come with that rubbish. European and American governments tend to interfere all the time, so you can hardly say it's just the US government at it.  Yeah sure
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
manni
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 22):
Don't come with that rubbish. European and American governments tend to interfere all the time, so you can hardly say it's just the US government at it.

Absolutely no rubbish. LY had made up their mind, A330's is what they wanted. When Albright heard about this, she told Israel no to, or else...

Completely different with encouraging airlines to buy either European or American, as Blair apparently recently did with the QF order asking the Aussie governement to encourage QF to buy Airbus. Why's that differen? Apparently Blair offered some incentives, he didn't say... or else... and a decision wasn't made yet at the time of Blair' recommandation.

It might be difficult to swallow for you, doubt it would have been the case if it didn't involve Boeing, but what Albright did was blackmail in it's purest form. Granny Albright, what a complete joke she is... How can anyone take someone like that serious?

LY knows it's going to order Boeing, but is avoiding having to pay the full price by knocking on the competitors door.
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mbj2000
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:51 am

There is a small difference, however there will always be politicians who will use more aggressive methods to manipulate business. You can be sure that if an eastern european carrier is in the same position and Blair, Merkel or Chirac has the same influence as Albright had in that case, they WOULD use it.

Airbus shouldn't be dumb and play the role of the "offended bride" whatsoever and try to win the deal. Even if they hurt Boeing on price it's still a win...

Quoting Manni (Reply 23):
Quoting Gkirk (Reply 22):
Don't come with that rubbish. European and American governments tend to interfere all the time, so you can hardly say it's just the US government at it.

Absolutely no rubbish. LY had made up their mind, A330's is what they wanted. When Albright heard about this, she told Israel no to, or else...

Completely different with encouraging airlines to buy either European or American, as Blair apparently recently did with the QF order asking the Aussie governement to encourage QF to buy Airbus. Why's that differen? Apparently Blair offered some incentives, he didn't say... or else... and a decision wasn't made yet at the time of Blair' recommandation.

It might be difficult to swallow for you, doubt it would have been the case if it didn't involve Boeing, but what Albright did was blackmail in it's purest form. Granny Albright, what a complete joke she is... How can anyone take someone like that serious?

LY knows it's going to order Boeing, but is avoiding having to pay the full price by knocking on the competitors door.
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
gkirk
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 23):
Absolutely no rubbish. LY had made up their mind, A330's is what they wanted. When Albright heard about this, she told Israel no to, or else...

Everyone knows that's true, but it's not just the American government that uses political pressure, the UK, France, German and Spanish governments will also put political pressure on if it gives Airbus a chance of winning an order.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
khobar
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Most likely scenario. Unbelievable that Airbus is actually wasting time talking to them. Last time all went well too, untill the always interfering American governement told LY to order differently

You should probably read the article Keesje posted a link to.

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
Well, they put RR engines on their 757s and, more recently, chose RR again for their 777s when, as I recall, they were under intense pressure to buy American. So, they have been known to disregard Uncle Sam and may do so again.

You mean they aren't mindless drones like all the other Boeing customers?  Wink

Quoting Keesje (Reply 14):
I guess this was no bias, but reality.

You should probably read the article you posted the link to.

Quoting Manni (Reply 23):
Absolutely no rubbish. LY had made up their mind, A330's is what they wanted. When Albright heard about this, she told Israel no to, or else...

Here, I'll save all of you the trouble and post the following from the article:

"She had a discussion with Foreign Minister Levy on the question of the Boeing buys, and she talked about basically the importance for American jobs of buying from an American company," Dennis Ross, the U.S. special Middle East coordinator, told reporters last week.

"Ross also said she raised the issue of U.S. aid, saying that "she talked about what congressional responses or attitudes might be in a circumstance where an American company that was making a competitive bid was not being responded to."

Perhaps you folks don't understand what that means, but the cold hard reality of it is that Albright did NOT tell LY to buy Boeing or else. She did state that because aid to Israel comes up for periodic vote in a not entirely friendly to Israel Congress, purchasing European Airbus planes with what would be perceived by some as US taxpayer dollars might not sit well with those in Congress looking for an excuse to cut off aid to Israel. There was no direct threat to cut off funds as some of you believe - the question of funds is determined by Congress, not the Administration (which is what the article says - amazing how people missed that).
 
trex8
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 26):
Quoting PM (Reply 6):
Well, they put RR engines on their 757s and, more recently, chose RR again for their 777s when, as I recall, they were under intense pressure to buy American. So, they have been known to disregard Uncle Sam and may do so again.


You mean they aren't mindless drones like all the other Boeing customers?

or maybe they wanted to throw a bone to the other side, the Europeans, after deciding to get 777s. Like CI did buying GE engines after deciding to get A330s and not 777s.
 
gkirk
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:32 am

There is probably more American parts in the A350 than the B787 anyway  stirthepot 
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
keesje
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 26):
Perhaps you folks don't understand what that means,

Looks like you are the only one that doesn't understand what this means.. Albright, the Israelies, El Al, Boeing, Airbus, everyone understood.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 28):
There is probably more American parts in the A350 than the B787 anyway

Aviation is very international. Both A&B use the best (same) specialist subcontractors. European involvement in 787 is significant too.. Thales, RR, Dowty, Messier-Bugatti, Latecoere, Hawker de Havilland, Zodiac, Diehl, Dassault, Alenia, GKN, ..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PM
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
European involvement in 787 is significant too.. Thales, RR, Dowty, Messier-Bugatti, Latecoere, Hawker de Havilland, Zodiac, Diehl, Dassault, Alenia, GKN, ..

Since Hawker de Havilland is owned by Boeing and based in Australia, it may not be the best example you could have chosen...  Wink
 
WINGS
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:11 am

Quoting PM (Reply 30):
Since Hawker de Havilland is owned by Boeing and based in Australia, it may not be the best example you could have chosen... Wink

Don't they make the A330/A340 winglets?

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
Thorben
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 31):
Don't they make the A330/A340 winglets?

I think they make the A380 winglets.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
PM
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 31):
Don't they make the A330/A340 winglets?



Quoting Thorben (Reply 32):
I think they make the A380 winglets.

But it's hardly an example of "European involvement in the 787..."  Wink
 
amirs
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
Apart from anything else, they didn't order any Boeings in lieu of the proposed A330s which is why they are talking again to Airbus.)

???
They have order 3 777 since then.
The original order was 3 777 and 3 330's.
Instead of the 3 A330's they got another 777, and now they ordered another 2.
In truth, the cancellation of the A330 order worked out well for EL AL. That same year the second Intifada broke out, and there was a huge fall in traffic.
 
PM
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 34):
???
They have order 3 777 since then.
The original order was 3 777 and 3 330's.
Instead of the 3 A330's they got another 777, and now they ordered another 2.

As you say, the original plan was for a mix of 777s and A330s. The A330s were never ordered. The fourth 777 was ordered quite soon after the first three but the last two only quite recently. And, as you say, things change. So maybe a fleet of six 777s is the best for El Al now but that wasn't the original plan and and there are still 767s to replace.
 
khobar
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 28):
There is probably more American parts in the A350 than the B787 anyway

Would be ironic to say the least. Somewhere I saw a figure of 120,000 US (North America perhaps) employees involved in the A380, and I'm not even sure if that was all of them or just a particular segment of them.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
Looks like you are the only one that doesn't understand what this means.. Albright, the Israelies, El Al, Boeing, Airbus, everyone understood.

No, I think I'm the only one who does understand what this means. Albright had NO AUTHORITY to pull the funds, and she made that perfectly, crystal clear. So do please explain how Albright was in any way threatening the Israelis on the issue of funds. It would be like Israel threatening to stop providing our oil. Hello?

Perhaps you are suggesting that everyone else in the world is so stupidly afraid of the US that they really will do anything the US tells them to because they really are mindless drones. After all, that's what you're otherwise arguing.
 
aa1818
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:20 am

You guys can complain about the US interfering but heck if I was pumping millions of dollars into an economy and had helped it tremendously over the years i'd expect it to say "how high?" when I said JUMP! Don't fool yourselves, the EU does the exact same thing. If you want to join the EU then buy Airbus- OR ELSE!!! Grow up guys, it's business and the livelihood of economies are at stake- people will go to extremes no matter whether in France/ Germany or in the USofA. Just accept that it happens on both sides and it's not about to stop soon!

AA1818
“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
 
manni
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 37):
Don't fool yourselves, the EU does the exact same thing. If you want to join the EU then buy Airbus-

Dont't fool yourself... so far LOT is the biggest European 787 customer, despite Poland being a major EU money taker.

I challenge you to give one obvious example of your said theory.
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Alitalia744
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:03 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 22):
Don't come with that rubbish. European and American governments tend to interfere all the time, so you can hardly say it's just the US government at it.

Exactly, if I recall there is a current post about Mr. Blair, of UK fame offering Qantas valuable LHR slots in exchange for Airbii ordering.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
manni
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:25 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 39):
Exactly, if I recall there is a current post about Mr. Blair, of UK fame offering Qantas valuable LHR slots in exchange for Airbii ordering.

Mr. Blair made a suggestion and offered an incentive, Albright made a command and threathened to withdraw financial support to Israel if not followed up, 2 complete different things.
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
4xRuv
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:53 pm

I think that for a carrier with a fleet smaller than 40 pieces, it won't be wise to operate both A and B fleet. Correct me If I'm wrong.
I know that in the past A was very generous to suggest this change as part of the deal, but i'm not sure they'll do it these days, and i'm not sure it's cost effective for LY either.
 
Joni
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RE: Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:14 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 36):

No, I think I'm the only one who does understand what this means. Albright had NO AUTHORITY to pull the funds, and she made that perfectly, crystal clear. So do please explain how Albright was in any way threatening the Israelis on the issue of funds. It would be like Israel threatening to stop providing our oil. Hello?

Have a look at this article, perhaps it helps to explain things:

http://www.cidi.nl/news/news1999.html#09-12-99a

Quoting Khobar (Reply 26):
Perhaps you folks don't understand what that means, but the cold hard reality of it is that Albright did NOT tell LY to buy Boeing or else. She did state that because aid to Israel comes up for periodic vote in a not entirely friendly to Israel Congress, purchasing European Airbus planes with what would be perceived by some as US taxpayer dollars might not sit well with those in Congress looking for an excuse to cut off aid to Israel. There was no direct threat to cut off funds as some of you believe

From the above Jerusalem post article:

Albright told Foreign Minister David Levy at a meeting yesterday that the Clinton administration would find it hard to ask Congress to approve a $2 billion aid package to help Israel and the Palestinians implement their interim peace deals if El Al bought European.

I don't know how direct you want a threat to be for it to count, but that's amply direct enough for me. I think that at least the Israelis got the point, as the Airbus order was dropped.