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NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:54 pm

Just heard on One News and several Stuff newspapers will have it on their front pages tomorrow, that QF and NZ are close to merging their Trans-Tasman operations.

Worst affected airports due to less competition will be WLG and CHC
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kiwiandrew

RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:12 pm

Quoting 777ER (Thread starter):
Just heard on One News and several Stuff newspapers will have it on their front pages tomorrow, that QF and NZ are close to merging their Trans-Tasman operations.

haven't we been here before , at least once ... remember "Air share" ? wonder how long it will last this time , assuming that it actually gets clearance from the Commerce Commission
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:20 pm

CHC would still have some competition on all the Tasman routes except the Gold Coast (DJ to SYD/MEL/BNE and EK to SYD) but WLG would lack competition on all routes except BNE. For this reason I doubt it will get past the NZ commerce commission.
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:29 pm

Maybe this could encourage DJ to re-enter WLG-SYD and could result in JQ operations from WLG sooner then expected
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nzrich
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:44 pm

Well IF this did happen it actually wouldnt really impact CHC at all as QF only have a once daily service to SYD and thats it .. rest are operated by JQ syd/mel/bne/ool ..WLG and AKL would actually be hit more than CHC
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:43 pm

I can't believe that they are "floating" this again without having run it past the Commerce Commission.
I advocated sometime ago that both carriers should roll their trans-Tasman and Pacific Islands business's into a new low cost company and rationalise the services.
There will still be competition on the main routes; just so long as they do not jack the prices on the less popular routes, and I am sure that the Commission would warn them on that. The price of a ticket from Hamilton to Cairns should not be too much different on a seat mile basis than a WLG-BNE ticket.
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 3):
Maybe this could encourage DJ to re-enter WLG-SYD and could result in JQ operations from WLG sooner then expected

I don't think QF would let JQ take over on the WLG-MEL and the WLG-SYD routes as they're heavy with business traffic, but BNE and the Gold Coast, for sure. And bring back Virgin on the WLG-SYD route (hopefully WLG-MEL too).
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:57 am

Yes that did if from 1990 - 1995/96 when it all fell apart. I recall QF - with NZ codesharing - almost all SYD -WLG - Syd flights. Not sure how they would do it this tiem as QG were flying 763s into WLG in those days.
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:26 am

Given that there is vast over-capacity on the Tasman routes, rationalisation makes sense. The Dom Post quoted Air NZ as saying the over capacity equates to 11 empty A320 flights.

A codeshare between the two airlines is nothing new, so there should be no reason to decline it as there is historical precedence of its existence. Given that out of WLG and CHC there is little real choice in departure times, it's either roughly 6am-7am or 2pm-4pm because the airlines can fit in two round Tasman trips per day on this type of operation, it might open up the chance of more choice in flight times.

The reason that they have not floated it past the Commerce Commission yet is because, according to the media, they are still in the process of finalising the arrangements of how the codeshare operations will work. These arrangements will be part of the submission they make to the Commerce Commission.
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:01 am

56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:45 pm

Quoting Broocy (Reply 8):
over capacity equates to 11 empty A320 flights

I suppose they mean in comparison with 100% full capacity? if so the comparison should really be with 75% capacity, as that is NZ's norm across the network. How many flight in total are there across the Tasman? That answer would help to gauge what level of occupancy they're getting at the moment, and what would be a reasonable target.
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:58 pm

It seems the way to go. It appears as if there is enough competition for other airlines to negate any concerns on that front.
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:14 pm

Glad I don't live in Wellington with just the choice of two very mediocre airlines across the ditch.
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:07 pm

In the SMH today we have the CEO of Pacific Blue coming out against the QF-NZ Tasman plans:
"Tony Marks, chief executive of rival Pacific Blue, said the move would give Air NZ and Qantas an 80 percent share of the market. The airlines were likely to offer fewer, larger flights, lessening competition and making price hikes inevitable. "This particular mechanism has been used before and looks like it is being resurrected from the graveyard," Mr Marks told NZPA."
http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/...lue/2006/03/30/1143441247162.html.

I don't know how a partnership that runs 80% of the Tasman traffic is anything but bad for competion and for passengers. If NZ or QF are running too many empty planes the obvious thing for them to do is to fly fewer planes. They can't blame anyone but themselves...though of course they do. They still want the good old days when they had the Tasman to themselves and charged what they liked and offered whatever level of service they felt like. And we, having no alternatives, had to like it or lump it.
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:13 pm

I hope the Commerce commissions of both countries block it. The queues at the EK counter at AKL yesterday afternoon clearly indicates the preference of Aucklanders at least,Trans Tasman is EK.
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:27 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 14):
I hope the Commerce commissions of both countries block it. The queues at the EK counter at AKL yesterday afternoon clearly indicates the preference of Aucklanders at least,Trans Tasman is EK.

The long queues at AKL for EK don't indicate that at all. You can't take what you saw at AKL yesterday and draw a conclusion like that.

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 12):
Glad I don't live in Wellington with just the choice of two very mediocre airlines across the ditch.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. If that is the case then DJ, EK and JQ will jump in and they will have more airlines to choose from. But really if that was the case then they would have already. IIRC DJ in fact dropped some services from WLG. Maybe QF and NZ aren't so mediocre.
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:49 pm

I am sure the Christchurch and Wellington City Councils will make every effort to stop this proposed arrangement.
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:57 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 16):
I am sure the Christchurch and Wellington City Councils will make every effort to stop this proposed arrangement.

Because why?
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:16 pm

Because its against the interests of their residents and exporters.And I am sure Infratil will jump on the bandwagon in respect of WLG and make active approaches to Jetstar and Pacific Blue. They can forget SJ thats just NZ in drag!
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kiwiandrew

RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:33 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 18):
and make active approaches to Jetstar and Pacific Blue. They can forget SJ thats just NZ in drag!

if SJ is NZ in drag then surely Jetstar is also QF in drag leaving Pacific Blue as the only independent option
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:55 pm

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 6):
and the Gold Coast

QF don't serve OOL from WLG, only from CHC with JQ

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 12):
Glad I don't live in Wellington with just the choice of two very mediocre airlines across the ditch.

NZ, QF, SJ and DJ

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 14):
The queues at the EK counter at AKL yesterday afternoon clearly indicates the preference of Aucklanders at least,Trans Tasman is EK.

That doesn't mean EK is the prefernece, with only one flight to SYD, MEL and BNE it doesn;t really count. If EK had more flights then there would be less queues. Simon obviously by your comments so far today shows your time-out didnt teach you anything

[Edited 2006-03-30 12:16:12]
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:13 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 14):
The queues at the EK counter at AKL yesterday afternoon clearly indicates the preference of Aucklanders at least,Trans Tasman is EK.

3 widebody flights departing so close together will always mean queues like EK has, especially at an airport like AKL, which isn't set up for any large numbers of passengers.
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:17 pm

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 21):
Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 14):
The queues at the EK counter at AKL yesterday afternoon clearly indicates the preference of Aucklanders at least,Trans Tasman is EK.

3 widebody flights departing so close together will always mean queues like EK has, especially at an airport like AKL, which isn't set up for any large numbers of passengers.

And that is from a member who works in the check-in area at AKL
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JoFMO
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:34 pm

Some days ago I posted the article regarding a possible Tamasek (SQ) stake in VirginBlue.

What effect could that have on a proposed QF/NZ Tasman codeshare?

Why doesn't NZ wait till Tamasak has taken it's stake in VirginBlue and initiate a far reaching codesharing with them over the Tasman and further into Australia?

From my point of view trans Tasman fares are already much higher than other three hour flights in Europe or North America.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:39 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 23):
Some days ago I posted the article regarding a possible Tamasek (SQ) stake in VirginBlue.

What effect could that have on a proposed QF/NZ Tasman codeshare?

Why doesn't NZ wait till Tamasak has taken it's stake in VirginBlue and initiate a far reaching codesharing with them over the Tasman and further into Australia?

Hi JoFMO

both NZ and QF are ( if you believe them ) bleeding red ink on the Tasman so they need to do something . As you said the stake is possible . I dont think NZ can sit and do nothing while waiting for a hypothetical stake to happen ( if things are as bad as they say ) - in any case relations between NZ and SQ are distinctly frosty so there is no guarantee that SQ gaining influence with DJ would necessarily work to NZs advantage .
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:46 pm

Listening to the news tonight it would seem that if NZ/QF come to a deal it will most likely not be blocked by the NZ commerce commission or ASIC because a precedent was set with the NZ/QF codeshare arrangement in the '90s.
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:56 pm

Well, I even think NZ should ask VirginBlue, whatever might happen with them in regard to SQ.
I must say, if NZ really has so much problems over the Tasman, they shouldn't look at QF. A deal between NZ and QF was once rejected in 2003, I don't see any guarantee that it might come through this time. They will have 80% marketshare (does that include Freedom and Jetstar?) as mentioned above. And there is no competition from any other mode of Transportation as happens with so many other mergers like LH+LX or AF+KLM to name just two. So I really have doubts that the competition watchdogs might allow it this time, considering that both airlines are doing quite fine economicaly in general.

So if NZ really want a fast solution they should look after Virgin Blue. It could help to reduce trans Tasman capacity, both airlines would find a valuable codesharepartner in each others country and there wouldn't be any interference from the watchdogs, like it is very likely with a QF solution.

NZ should try the more realistic shoice instead of striking a deal that might end the same way as last time. They are wasting a lot of human resurces with this Qantas game.
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 16):
I am sure the Christchurch and Wellington City Councils will make every effort to stop this proposed arrangement.

Why would CHC worry there is only ONE overlaping flight in CHC as QF has pulled out of chc exc for 1 daily SYD flight rest has gone to JQ

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 19):
if SJ is NZ in drag then surely Jetstar is also QF in drag leaving Pacific Blue as the only independent option

Ok we could go ONE further her PAC blue is VIRGIN blue in DRAG hmm a virgin in drag

Quoting Antskip (Reply 13):
I don't know how a partnership that runs 80% of the Tasman traffic is anything but bad for competion and for passengers. If NZ or QF are running too many empty planes the obvious thing for them to do is to fly fewer planes. They can't blame anyone but themselves...though of course they do. They still want the good old days when they had the Tasman to themselves and charged what they liked and offered whatever level of service they felt like. And we, having no alternatives, had to like it or lump it.

Actually NO its not obvious as those empty planes you have quoted are spread out over MANY flights so most planes may have empty some empty seats but there are not that many empty flights flying the tasman.. Its actually the same problem all the airlines are having on the tasman if you counted every empty seat on ANY airline flying the tasman ,EVERY airline would be flying at the very least a couple of empty planes each week ...
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 27):
all the airlines are having on the tasman if you counted every empty seat on ANY airline flying the tasman ,EVERY airline would be flying at the very least a couple of empty planes each week ...

Both EK and NZ, according to their annual reports, have an average across-the-fleet occupancy of 75%. So surely

Quote:
EVERY airline would be flying at the very least a couple of empty planes each week

would apply to the fleets in general, and not just the Tasman? 75% means one in 4 planes is "empty". What NZ are really saying I think is that all the new airlines are taking "their" passengers on "their" piece of water, and if the other airlines were not operating there would not be so many empty seats on NZ and QF planes. Of course they are right. Yet they together transport 80% of Tasman passengers. They are in the box seat; always will be. I still don't understand why they 1) aren't making a profit on the Tasman? 2) if they are not, why don't they just cut their existing number of flights to fill their planes better? The only serious alternative for most times of the day is one of QF or NZ, so the "lost" passengers would mostly just go on the other airline anyway. The problem at the moment is when, say, there is a NZ and a QF flight leaving from MEL to AKL within half an hour of each other. That of course, if they are not competitors, should really be only one flight - which is what they are proposing. But you can do it another way - each drops a few of the doubled-up flights. Reduce the number of flights across the Tasman.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 18):
They can forget SJ thats just NZ in drag!



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 19):
if SJ is NZ in drag then surely Jetstar is also QF in drag leaving Pacific Blue as the only independent option



Quoting Nzrich (Reply 27):
Ok we could go ONE further her PAC blue is VIRGIN blue in DRAG hmm a virgin in drag

All of these are essentially correct and I'd say "drag" is the best way of describing it.

What I find interesting is how NZ and QF distinguish their costs and profits based solely on the Tasman. Are these operated as unique and distinct profit centres? I doubt it. Why? Becasue they Tasman feeds NZ's domestic, Pacific Island and US markets, while for QF the route feeds their domestic, Asian, European and African routes. So how on earth can they determine the profit and losses from their "Tasman" operations? I suspect they can't provide a distinct calculation and are just using this as a PR move to maximise their dominance in the marketplace. Clever tactic on an uneducated public.

And the "11 empty A320s" a day thing is another, similar PR move. Total nonsense if you consider overall load factors. Sounds heaps to start off with, but compare it to their total number of seats for their daily trips and suddenly it doesn't seem so horrendous.

I don't know about this "historical precedent" thing either. If you use that argument, you could easily be rebutted with the simple observation that fares were higher back then and frequencies lower. So where is the benefit to the travelling public again? QF and NZ's increased profitability? Great for shareholders, bad for competition.

If QF and NZ are so concerned about profitability on the Tasman (like I said, pretty dubious concept), then they should bite the bullet and transfer all ops to lower cost operations - Jetstar and Freedom respectively. Otherwise, it's all just nonsense yet again. Considering the Australian government's rabid protectionist policies, it looks like it's up to the NZ Commerce Commission to step up to the plate for the consumer once again.
 
flyjetstar
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 29):
I don't know about this "historical precedent" thing either. If you use that argument, you could easily be rebutted with the simple observation that fares were higher back then and frequencies lower. So where is the benefit to the travelling public again? QF and NZ's increased profitability? Great for shareholders, bad for competition.

Mate you can't have it both ways. On another thread you were commenting about taxpayers being shareholders in NZ and spending our money badly now as they try to do something about that you complain that it only benefits shareholders and not the travelling public. Aren't you a shareholder? Wont you benefit?

And by saying that I'm not saying I believe NZ. I'm just pointing out the flaw in your argument.
 
antskip
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:25 am

The NZ Consumers Institute claims that travel agents, airports and consumer groups are against the NZ-QF trans-Tasman de-facto marriage plan:

Quote:
Consumers Institute chief executive David Russell said yesterday that air travellers would inevitably pay higher fares and have fewer choices if Air New Zealand and Qantas were allowed to join forces on the Tasman route. "They are competing very strongly against each other now. Inevitably, if they join forces, in whatever way, they will be trying to lift their fares," Mr Russell said. The purpose of an alliance was to reduce costs by flying fewer aircraft, which would mean fewer flights and less choice, he said.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3621664a13,00.html.

[Edited 2006-03-31 02:28:04]
 
aerokiwi
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 30):
Mate you can't have it both ways

Yes, I can. You're simply confusing the context.

The other thread concerns flippant and unnecessary spending during tight financial times. This thread concerns primary airline operations within a competitive environemnt. NZ and QF devote an awful lot of time and resources to trying to circumvent that competitive environment, when instead they should be using the means they have or could develop to work within it. They've spent years trying to stitch up a blatantly anti-competitive deal between them, wasting time, resources and credibility.

So while I believe in a profit focus for NZ, I also believe in a competitive environemnt where consumers have choice. If LCCs can operate successfully (profitably) in these situations, so can Air NZ or QF, if they really try (Freedom and Jetstar).

Interestingly, NZ is giving on the one hand to shareholders (NZ public) with greater profits (not that we see it, but it increases shareholder value), while taking with the other, by implementing anticompetitive measures that increase prices, reduce consumer choice and ultimately will leave the airline as a dinosaur (that will die) rather than an adaptive, lean and competitive carrier that we came to see over the past five years.

So, 2 different topics, yet a compatable view. You can be pro-market and pro-profit. LCCs prove that perfectly.

[Edited 2006-03-31 03:37:45]
 
flyjetstar
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 32):
The other thread concerns flippant and unnecessary spending during tight financial times. This thread concerns primary airline operations within a competitive environment. NZ and QF devote an awful lot of time and resources to trying to circumvent that competitive environment, when instead they should be using the means they have or could develop to work within it. they've spent years trying to stitch up a blatantly anti-competitive deal between them, wasting time, resources and credibility.

But what if they have done that and now there are no options left. NZ have lowered prices for Tasman routes but in a competitive environment there is not a lot more they can do. This provides another way to lessen costs on the Tasman and thus build shareholder value.

Its not as if there isn't competition out there in the market. I think your argument would be valid if they were a monopoly and had not tried other ways to reduce costs.

I'm not convinced that costs will increase markedly on the Tasman should this go ahead. I accept there will be some increases but I don't think it will be huge. The airlines still need to fill the seats.

You seem to be man of extremes. Do you ever find the middle ground/compromise? You say this is "blatantly anti-comptetive" and the uniforms are a "flippant" waste of money.

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 32):
So, 2 different topics, yet a compatable view. You can be pro-market and pro-profit. LCCs prove that perfectly.

How valid is this when NZ isn't a LCC and doesn't have the same freedoms?
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 33):
You seem to be man of extremes. Do you ever find the middle ground/compromise? You say this is "blatantly anti-comptetive" and the uniforms are a "flippant" waste of money.

I'm not sure if you can consider a reasoned opinion as extreme in any sense. By definition, any opinion is "extreme" because it adopts one opinion over all others, thus excluding them.

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 33):
How valid is this when NZ isn't a LCC and doesn't have the same freedoms?

NZ and Australia have an open-skies policy, I believe. What freedoms are you talking about?

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 33):
But what if they have done that and now there are no options left. NZ have lowered prices for Tasman routes but in a competitive environment there is not a lot more they can do.

So you resort to anticompetitive behaviour? Hardly the best long-term solution for anyone. What you do is concede that your opertion is too expensive to have a reasonable return on investment, so look for a lower cost option, like QF is doing with Australian and Jetstar. Hence, Freedom Air.

And again, where is the evidence that the Tasman is so unprofitable? Is it even possible to determine the Tasman's proftability as a stand-alone unit? Unless you only fly the Tasman, I suspect you can't. Perhaps if both companies revealed the Tasman's contribution to the revenues/profits of other parts of the organisation, then we'd have a better idea.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting Antskip (Reply 31):
The NZ Consumers Institute claims that travel agents, airports and consumer groups are against the NZ-QF trans-Tasman de-facto marriage plan:

I would argue that this point of view is not necessarily correct. I agree the choice will probably be less but there is no reason why existing fares need to rise.
The improved load factors at existing fares could easily make the routes profitable. In its report to the NZ Stock Exchange, yesterday, NZ reported its Tasman and Pacific services load factor in February as 68%. If it was 80% like its long haul international services , at present fares I would predict that it would have made good money. My view is that you cannot have low fares and a wide choice of flight times and low load factors. Get your heads out of the sand!
I checked the NZ and QF schedules April 5th, AKL-SYD ; there is a total of 11 flights. Even the allegedly poorly served WLG has 4 flights and so it goes on.
Lets do some fare comparison's. YYZ-YWG is near enough to the same distance as AKL-SYD. For April 5th the very lowest RT fare is the equivalent of $NZ510.00. And this is on a RJ with a 6:00 a.m. takeoff and very limited space at this fare.! The most commonly available RT fare was $NZ683 . WestJet were about $NZ540. JFK-DFW is about the same distance, fares on this route were about $NZ770.
I checked some NZ and QF fares and they were right around the same level.
So it seems to me that the trans-Tasman fares are not out of line compared to North America.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:33 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 35):
So it seems to me that the trans-Tasman fares are not out of line compared to North America.

The Canadian market is a hardly a fair comparison, especially the route you are describing. I think a fairer comparison would be US transcon flights. plus, does this route have as much feeder traffic as SYD-AKL? I highly doubt it.
 
flyjetstar
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:40 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 34):
I'm not sure if you can consider a reasoned opinion as extreme in any sense. By definition, any opinion is "extreme" because it adopts one opinion over all others, thus excluding them.

I meant that you don't seem to be open to other peoples ideas.

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 34):
NZ and Australia have an open-skies policy, I believe. What freedoms are you talking about?

I was referring to LCC having a different cost base/market/expectations than a carrier like NZ.

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 34):
And again, where is the evidence that the Tasman is so unprofitable? Is it even possible to determine the Tasman's profitability as a stand-alone unit? Unless you only fly the Tasman, I suspect you can't. Perhaps if both companies revealed the Tasman's contribution to the revenues/profits of other parts of the organisation, then we'd have a better idea.

Why are you not able to listen to NZ when they say it is unprofitable? I'm not saying take what they say at face value but they are the ones flying planes across the Tasman so isn't it reasonable to expect they know what works and what doesn't. They are likely to have a better idea than you.

You can't expect NZ to give all the details when it is already competitive and the competition might take advantage of it.

[Edited 2006-03-31 04:41:49]
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 29):
So how on earth can they determine the profit and losses from their "Tasman" operations? I suspect they can't provide a distinct calculation and are just using this as a PR move to maximise their dominance in the marketplace.

Quite easily I believe. When ticket coupons are flown, they can track the revenue per sector. That is how revenue is divided between airlines on multi airline tickets. The same will be done when there are sectors on the same airline.

That is not to say that an airline won't massage the numbers to suit there own needs, but I believe that the current costs base and level of Tasman competition makes the status-quo unsustainable. Consolidation will have to occur.
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:17 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 14):
The queues at the EK counter at AKL yesterday afternoon clearly indicates the preference of Aucklanders at least,Trans Tasman is EK.

As were the lines at QF and NZ. Your statement is pointless. I am wondering why you bothered to join the a.net community in the 1st place. Those hemorrhoids must be getting itchy huh?

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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:18 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 35):
yesterday, NZ reported its Tasman and Pacific services load factor in February as 68%. If it was 80% like its long haul international services , at present fares I would predict that it would have made good money.

Spot on. They are offering too many seats. The solution is to reduce the number of seats available so that loads improve. They know that if they reduce seats unilatererally by taking planes off, then QF will continue to choose market share over profitablity (as NZ does now). So they want their major Tasman competitor, QF, to reduce their seats too. This way both airlines would increase profitability without losing market share (80% NZ and QF together). They would then retain present market share (available time slots with seats) but increase occupancy to around 80%. However, it is basically the same as forming one Tasman airline controlling 80% of the market, which is not a competitive situation -though from the perspective of NZ and QF it would be great. The remaining question is whether such dominance improves or not the present options for users of the market. It seems doubtful to me that reducing the number of seats and cargo capacity across the Tasman at the same time as giving one de facto entity 80% of the market is going to give the consumer a better deal. The airlines in question have other options. One is to agree to take off some of their planes to increase profitability without either of them losing their present comparative market position. The other is to increase prices. NZ and QF are now consistently offering the cheapest seats across the ditch - they really don't need to.
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:28 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 14):
I hope the Commerce commissions of both countries block it. The queues at the EK counter at AKL yesterday afternoon clearly indicates the preference of Aucklanders at least,Trans Tasman is EK.

Er no.... That just indicates that EK uses an external ground handler (Menzies) rather than having their own like NZ does. What it shows is that when you go for the cheapest option with lower paid staff you get slow checkins... Would you prefer to que up for an hour or 15 mins?

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 23):
Some days ago I posted the article regarding a possible Tamasek (SQ) stake in VirginBlue.

What effect could that have on a proposed QF/NZ Tasman codeshare?

Why doesn't NZ wait till Tamasak has taken it's stake in VirginBlue and initiate a far reaching codesharing with them over the Tasman and further into Australia?

From my point of view trans Tasman fares are already much higher than other three hour flights in Europe or North America.

Now that would be very interesting! Imagine that? if SQ could get complete control or majority along with RBranson, then NZ would have a decent domestic feeder in Australia and could actually compete against QF properly! I still want to see Virgin Atlantic join Star Alliance (compete against BA).. If all the Virgin group joined Star that would make a huge difference! If VirginBlue joined Star then I would think they would drop most of their Transtasman flights and leave them to NZ and SJ because NZ would feed them pax into their domestic network. NZ would be able to then go back to flying SYD-LAX etc because it would have a feeder.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 24):
Hi JoFMO

both NZ and QF are ( if you believe them ) bleeding red ink on the Tasman so they need to do something . As you said the stake is possible . I dont think NZ can sit and do nothing while waiting for a hypothetical stake to happen ( if things are as bad as they say ) - in any case relations between NZ and SQ are distinctly frosty so there is no guarantee that SQ gaining influence with DJ would necessarily work to NZs advantage .

Bleeding yes, but they both have quite high load factors and have reduced costs (QF is using a lot more JetConnect staff now). I think with the Tasman, most operators are hurting, possibly losing money, but not necessarily a lot of money. (In EKs case they do it because its cheaper to fly it with a few pax and cargo than it is to park up in SYD for 7 hours).
I think relations between NZ and SQ have been thawing lately as SQ have other things to think about and NZ isn't a threat at all to them (except AKL-SIN-AKL but NZ has always done this flight and SQ is still getting good loadings). I do doubt however than SQ would want DJ joining Star Alliance even if they did gain control of it.
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:32 pm

AKL_SIN by NZ has never been a threat to SQ. Never was never will be. Crappy old 767 against 744. The new 772 by NZ may be an improvement but it hasnt got Krisworld or Singapore Girl. NZ's load factors on that run have always been abysmal I dont know whether thaey have improved with the new birds.
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:12 pm

NZ1 you have it so wrong and your pro NZ bias is so obvious. The lines at AKL were just about out the door for EK and TG. Couldnt say the same for NZ or QF. Before making inane statements get the facts. You fly as crew I fly as a passenger got it!!!!!
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:35 pm

Why is that the NZ staffers on this site cannot take constructive criticism of their employer? I got an email from an a.netter in the USA who had also been banned for anti NZ comments. Why are you guys so precious? Remember the customer is always right or dont they tell you that in your training? SQ,EK,CX dont get criticised by me because they are faultless.
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:54 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 42):
AKL_SIN by NZ has never been a threat to SQ. Never was never will be. Crappy old 767 against 744. The new 772 by NZ may be an improvement but it hasnt got Krisworld or Singapore Girl.

Then why are you flying NZ81 to SIN shortly then? Hey guys.....we have an NZ lover here Smile

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 43):
Before making inane statements get the facts.

Why don't you get your facts correct before opening your non facts mouth

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 43):
You fly as crew I fly as a passenger got it!!!!!

Read above, and NZ1 isnt a crew member on flights, another fine example of not getting the facts correct

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 43):
NZ1 you have it so wrong and your pro NZ bias is so obvious. The lines at AKL were just about out the door for EK and TG. Couldnt say the same for NZ or QF

I would rather be pro bias then pro grumpy. The reason that EK and TG lines are so long is because there are not enough check-in agents checking in the passengers compared to NZ and QF check-in lines. NZ and QF have more check-in agents due to all their daily flights compared to EKs 3 flights leaving basically at the same time and less check-in agents will always result in long lines, but I'm expecting this to come and go from your mind and believe what you want to believe

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 44):
Why is that the NZ staffers on this site cannot take constructive criticism of their employer? I got an email from an a.netter in the USA who had also been banned for anti NZ comments. Why are you guys so precious?

Ever considered the mods got fed up with your non facts comments?

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 44):
SQ,EK,CX dont get criticised by me because they are faultless.

We all know why your grumpy. No airline is 100% perfect thats because every airline stuffs up.
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:22 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 42):
AKL_SIN by NZ has never been a threat to SQ. Never was never will be. Crappy old 767 against 744. The new 772 by NZ may be an improvement but it hasnt got Krisworld or Singapore Girl. NZ's load factors on that run have always been abysmal I dont know whether thaey have improved with the new birds.

and that is why the SQ CEO said that NZ now has the best business class product and that SQ is going to have to do something to beat it!
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:24 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 44):
Remember the customer is always right or dont they tell you that in your training?



Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 43):
The lines at AKL were just about out the door for EK and TG. Couldnt say the same for NZ or QF.

Emirates goes at a similar times as our US flights open, let me tell you now, those flights go right out the disney queues daily. I know, because I process them, not you.
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:25 pm

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 42):
NZ's load factors on that run have always been abysmal I dont know whether thaey have improved with the new birds.

Not to sure about that, the loads I have heard of late on AKL-SIN for NZ have been good already up quite a bit some days on what they carried on the 763, the 763's were usually quite well loaded too. SQ usually have excellent loads out of AKL.
 
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RE: NZ And QF Will Merge Trans-Tasman Operations

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:07 pm

I have been reading all of this with much interest.
I dont post messages very much but read here daily. Opinions and Views are interesting to read, but fact's are much better.
I read NZ1's posting's and respect all of what he has to say, someone who talks straight, for and against NZ in a proactive approach. If NZ is doing things the wrong way or make's a bad decision, I guess that's business, and sometimes we have idiot Leader's (CEO's, Managers etc) in business, but not in NZ's case, well not all of them anyway. However NZ is in the business of giving service and providing service. I work for NZ and are excited about the future plan's, but also are worried when bad business decisions's are made.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 45):
TG lines are so long is because there are not enough check-in agents checking in the passengers

NZ provide's passenger check-in and ground handling to TG. If TG is paying for a service, then NZ should provide it. ( Fact )

[quote=Pulkovokiwi,reply=44]Remember the customer is always right or dont they tell you that in your training?[/quote

Actually they dont. They train you to give the best customer service so NZ can be the passenger's preffered choice. They also train you the right from wrong. The customer is not alway's right. If a passenger say's to you at the check-in counter. My travel agent told me I could take 100kg of baggage for free. What would you do. The agent and the passenger are both customer's to NZ.

[quote=Pulkovokiwi

Idiot ( Fact )

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