keesje
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Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:30 pm

Steven Udvar-Hazy comments on the A350 have been well picked up by everyone and some interesting posts have been made on it.



However apparenty overlooked / missed were some other (probably less interresting) remarks by Steven.

Steven said Boeing is going to have a hard time finding buyers for the passenger version of the 747-8 but it depends on how competitive Boeing can be on pricing

Steven said the 737 is a 40-year-old design, it's narrower than Airbus' competing A320, and that's led some airlines to shy away from it.

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/03/29/100bus_corliss001.cfm
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Alitalia744
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:52 pm

Yes and he also said

"The problem, he said, is that the A350 is a hybrid incorporating a some of the technology advances Boeing has put into the 787, but it is still firmly wedded to Airbus' traditional product lines and is not different enough from the A330, which it is supposed to replace.

In terms of its fuselage size, "it's still an old A300," Hazy said. "It's not optimized. It's not where the 777 and 787 are."

"But at the same time, the 737 is an efficient aircraft that's a profitable and strong-selling jet for Boeing, Hazy said."

what's your point Keesje beside to constantly spin certain portions of an article to your advantage?
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NAV20
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:03 pm

Alan R. Mulally, CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, standing on the right, looks pretty happy with what he's hearing. Are there any pictures of Leahy's reaction, Keesje?  Smile
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:11 pm

Did he also talk about the problems the A320 is giving large customers like Jetblue who cannot fly the A320 from the East Coast to the West Coast on a consistent basis without stopping for fuel?
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keesje
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
Alan R. Mulally, CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, standing on the right, looks pretty happy with what he's hearing. Are there any pictures of Leahy's reaction, Keesje?

Most folks stopped challenging me for sources / links. NAV20 did I ever dissapoint you?  Wink

http://www.airbus.com/store/photolibrary/EVENTS/SIGNATURE/att00001549/media_object_image_lowres_709X473_customersILFC7D7A8.jpg

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Steven said Boeing is going to have a hard time finding buyers for the passenger version of the 747-8 but it depends on how competitive Boeing can be on pricing
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
what's your point Keesje beside to constantly spin certain portions of an article to your advantage?

answer my question keesje - exactly what was your point with this thread other than to do what you've done in hundreds of other threads?

everyone on Airliners.net knows how great you are at selectivity, especially when it comes to knocking Boeing and building up Airbus.

so your answer?
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NAV20
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:25 pm

Good one, Keesje.  Smile
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manni
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
In terms of its fuselage size, "it's still an old A300," Hazy said. "It's not optimized. It's not where the 777 and 787 are."

"But at the same time, the 737 is an efficient aircraft that's a profitable and strong-selling jet for Boeing, Hazy said."

what's your point Keesje beside to constantly spin certain portions of an article to your advantage?

There are atleast 2 threads covering these remarks. No need to challenge Keesje.
Wathever your agenda is. Take a lesson from NAV20's reply, that's what's called good 'sports'.
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keesje
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 5):
so your answer?

Prevent the a.net public from taking notice of only half what Steven Udvar-Hazy had to say this week.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
leelaw
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
Alan R. Mulally, CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, standing on the right, looks pretty happy with what he's hearing. Are there any pictures of Leahy's reaction, Keesje?

No, Leahy was wearing a rubber Forgeard mask during most of the Orlando conference.

FWIW, a former law partner of mine attending the conference says there were actually audible gasps in the room as Mr. Udvar-Hazy made his comments about the A350. I haven't seen that happen very many times at one of these generally mind-numbing "dog and pony shows." Apparently, people in the audience were genuinely stunned.

The comments attributed to Mr. Udvar-Hazy regarding the 737NG and 748 in the Herald.net article seem far more sanguine, like a "two-handed economist" as Harry Truman liked to say (on the one hand...and on the other hand), compared to the lambasting he gave the A350 program yesterday.

Keesje, I think you need to find stronger medication than this item to ease your pain.

[Edited 2006-03-29 15:41:52]

[Edited 2006-03-29 15:43:21]
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SoBe
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:37 pm

A comment regarding the models in the photograph above.

I'm surprised that the models are not in the new colors. Not that it's important, they just seem out of place to me.
 
Oykie
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Steven said Boeing is going to have a hard time finding buyers for the passenger version of the 747-8 but it depends on how competitive Boeing can be on pricing

Steven said the 737 is a 40-year-old design, it's narrower than Airbus' competing A320, and that's led some airlines to shy away from it.

Thanks for sharing this information. It was an interesting observation. I wonder for how long Boeing continue to keep the 737 in production. P.S. I know there are allot of planes on order, so it want happened any time soon. Put still last year the A320 sold out the 737NG in a ratio of nearly 2-1

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 5):
answer my question keesje - exactly what was your point with this thread other than to do what you've done in hundreds of other threads?

everyone on Airliners.net knows how great you are at selectivity, especially when it comes to knocking Boeing and building up Airbus.

so your answer?

I like to answer this one. FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!! I like what Keesje is doing. He consistently try to turn the picture in a professional matter. So what if he is a Airbus cheerleader?

All of us benefit in a broader view of what is happening. So in a way one can say that Keesje enlighten us so that if Boeing does a big mistake, he is there to tell us why. He provoke in a good way. Almost in the same way analyst where did not see the market for the A380, and some still doesn't see it.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
keesje
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting SoBe (Reply 10):
I'm surprised that the models are not in the new colors.

Both pictures are not recent! Just to give some illustrations on the main players in this unusual open "exchange of views" and their changing love affairs.

Leahy is not the kind of person that steps back cautiously. Probably not the last cream pie flying around!
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
leelaw
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting SoBe (Reply 10):
I'm surprised that the models are not in the new colors. Not that it's important, they just seem out of place to me.

Perhaps a tell-tale sign that the photo wasn't taken at Orlando yesterday, was shot at Orlando before Udvar-Hazy's remarks, and/or Airbus has decided to economize on the model budget?  Smile
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Alitalia744
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 11):
All of us benefit in a broader view of what is happening. So in a way one can say that Keesje enlighten us so that if Boeing does a big mistake, he is there to tell us why. He provoke in a good way. Almost in the same way analyst where did not see the market for the A380, and some still doesn't see it.

and that's fine, but there are two sides of the stick, so when it's time for your cheerleaders to get beaten, don't bitch if you don't want us to bitch.

fair sport no?
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MarcoT
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 5):
answer my question keesje - exactly what was your point with this thread other than to do what you've done in hundreds of other threads?

Enough with the bullying.

You're not entitled to police what can be said and can not be said on this forum, what thread can be started and what thread can not be started on this forum.

If you feeel that a thread start is deprived of merit, childish of whatever, suggest it for deletions.

By the way I remind you that amongst the rules that you have accepted there's, in prominent position, 'No hostile language or criticizing of others'.

Finally it has been said that you come out more than a bit one eyed. Being 'great at selectivity, especially when it comes to knocking Airbus and building up Boeing' would be exceedingly charitable and then some for describing the behaviour of at least a dozen of Boeing fans out there, yet nobody goes out bullying there.

I see no reasons why bullying should be tolerated the other way round, especially in a forum whose 'nicety nicety' rules means that adequately flaming in response is a no no.
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RichardPrice
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 5):
answer my question keesje - exactly what was your point with this thread other than to do what you've done in hundreds of other threads?

everyone on Airliners.net knows how great you are at selectivity, especially when it comes to knocking Boeing and building up Airbus.

so your answer?

Whenever these points have been brought up, its always been Hazys comments about the A350 that have been highlighted on A.net, whereas Keesje is pointing out that at the same interview Hazy also made interesting discussion points about the 737 and the 747-8, but these points have never been discussed. Hell, they havent ever been acknowledged as being said.

Or, to answer your question more closely, the points you (and Halibut in the other thread) are talking about, have already been discussed to death on a.net.

Infact, enjoy these threads! They contain the exact points you want to talk about, so why need Keesje waste another topic on stuff already being discussed?!


Gecas & Ilfc Tell Airbus To Overhaul A350 (by N1786b Mar 29 2006 in Civil Aviation)
A350 Not Optimized (by AeroPiggot Mar 23 2006 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2006-03-29 16:09:23]
 
jacobin777
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Steven said Boeing is going to have a hard time finding buyers for the passenger version of the 747-8 but it depends on how competitive Boeing can be on pricing

Steven said the 737 is a 40-year-old design, it's narrower than Airbus' competing A320, and that's led some airlines to shy away from it.

and you fail to mention that he also mentioned...


"He said sales of the superjumbo A380 — at best "300 or 400 airplanes," he estimated — cannot compensate for missing out in the much larger midsize wide-body market."

doesn't sound too good, now does it Keesje?  Smile
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leelaw
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
Probably not the last cream pie flying around!

Pies, what are you thinking about? Why should Baseler throw any pies when Udvar-Hazy is doing it for him. Is Leahy going to start throwing cream pies at ILFC? It's one thing to throw pies at your competitor, it's quite another to direct them at your customer.

I'm afraid you can't take refuge in your usual rubric of a Boeing/Baseler led, media driven misinformation campaign in this case; it's a major and influential customer pointing its finger at Airbus this time.

[Edited 2006-03-29 16:18:44]
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Oykie
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 14):
and that's fine, but there are two sides of the stick, so when it's time for your cheerleaders to get beaten, don't bitch if you don't want us to bitch.

fair sport no?

I don't like bitching. Period. I like exchanging thoughts about airplanes because I'm plane crazy. To me if it is Boeing or Airbus who have the upper hand it doesn't matter. Just a few years back before Boeing launched the 7E7, I thought they had lost all the potential. where was their future? The hole line-up was not up to date. And look. Today, Boeing has certainly turned back better than I in my best dreams would have thought of. They took Airbus with their pants down. Airbus took the opportunity with Boeing's lack of investment in new product and took the risk with the A380. Boeing seemed disoriented during the nineties. Airbus invested allot in their products, and are now enjoying that in terms of record sales. But Boeing has been listening to the customer, and costumers needs and the 787 was just what the market wanted. It will not benefit neither of us if the market goes all Boeing or all Airbus. Then the development will stop at the expenses of the flying public. We need this competition. To get back to the point. I think we should respect all peoples comments with gratitude. You have a valid point about the A350 not being completely new. But so does Keesje. He did comment about the 747-8i and 737NG even if that was not the same shock as his comments on the A350.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 18):
Pies, what are you thinking about? Why should Baseler throw any pies when Udvar-Hazy is doing it for him. Is Leahy going to start throwing cream pies at ILFC? It's one thing to throw pies at your competitor, it's quite another to direct them at your customer.

I'm afraid you can't take refuge in your usual rubric of a Boeing/Baseler led, media driven misinformation campaign in this case; it's a major and influential customer pointing its finger at Airbus this time.

I agree, this thread isnt as interesting as the A350 comments made, but shouldnt Hazy have made these comments before he purchased the aircraft? Whats the logic of making them now, after the company has already committed to buying at least 16 examples of the A350?

Certainly, the A350 needs modification, noone can deny that, but it isnt the likes of ILFC that will determine whether that happens and in what direction but rather the larger orders. ILFC isnt ever going to prove to be a big enough customer to make any changes to the direction of the program in the fairly significant areas Hazy is commenting on here.
 
767-332ER
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 11):
I like to answer this one. FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!! I like what Keesje is doing. He consistently try to turn the picture in a professional matter. So what if he is a Airbus cheerleader?

All of us benefit in a broader view of what is happening. So in a way one can say that Keesje enlighten us so that if Boeing does a big mistake, he is there to tell us why. He provoke in a good way. Almost in the same way analyst where did not see the market for the A380, and some still doesn't see it.

This is the biggest crock ever!!! So basically post half of what was said so that if favors Airbus?? Do you know how you would have gotten had one of "Boeing's cheerleaders" done that? You and the rest of the European Union would be up in arms about it. Let me say that if he's not going to post factually correct information, then he should not post at all. And yes, Alitalia 744 is correct, if he got caught, then don't try to shy away from it.


To get back to the point. I think we should respect all peoples comments with gratitude. You have a valid point about the A350 not being completely new. But so does Keesje. He did comment about the 747-8i and 737NG even if that was not the same shock as his comments on the A350.

And yes, so did Steven, although Keesje failed to mention the Boeing points, and made the whole thread to be "anti-Boeing" based on Steven's comments. Again trying to knock Boeing out again and make Airbus come out on top.
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Jet-lagged
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:44 am

Keesje,
You are fun!
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 21):
This is the biggest crock ever!!! So basically post half of what was said so that if favors Airbus?? Do you know how you would have gotten had one of "Boeing's cheerleaders" done that? You and the rest of the European Union would be up in arms about it. Let me say that if he's not going to post factually correct information, then he should not post at all. And yes, Alitalia 744 is correct, if he got caught, then don't try to shy away from it.

Problem is, thats exactly whats already happened. The A350 points you say have been excluded have already been discussed in two other threads (see one of my other posts on this thread for the links), to the exclusion of all other points brought up by Hazy.

So, this thread isnt 'posting half', its posting the rest of the points Hazy made, but I do agree that they arent exactly interesting or insightful while the A350 points have some validity.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 11):
Thanks for sharing this information. It was an interesting observation. I wonder for how long Boeing continue to keep the 737 in production. P.S. I know there are allot of planes on order, so it want happened any time soon. Put still last year the A320 sold out the 737NG in a ratio of nearly 2-1

Backlog of over 1000 airframes, I would say that the 737NG will be around for quite some time. Yes, the A320 is outselling the 737NG 2-1, but, the 737NG has 500 orders last year, that is still quite impresseive......
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dazeflight
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
and you fail to mention that he also mentioned...

"He said sales of the superjumbo A380 � at best "300 or 400 airplanes," he estimated � cannot compensate for missing out in the much larger midsize wide-body market."

doesn't sound too good, now does it Keesje? Smile

You just don't get it. The A350 and A380 parts have widely been discussed during the past days, now show us where the B737 and B747 comments have been discussed extensively? Keesje is merely pointing out that there is another side of the story and the only you've got to do is to bitch around that he did not mention things that the 'neutral' crowd here at a.net has been drooling over during the past days?

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 18):
I'm afraid you can't take refuge in your usual rubric of a Boeing/Baseler led, media driven misinformation campaign in this case; it's a major and influential customer pointing its finger at Airbus this time.

So he did at Boeing. But obviously it's to difficult to admit that for a 'neutral' person, as you like to describe yourself, like you.

ciao
Daniel
 
Oykie
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 21):
This is the biggest crock ever!!! So basically post half of what was said so that if favors Airbus?? Do you know how you would have gotten had one of "Boeing's cheerleaders" done that? You and the rest of the European Union would be up in arms about it. Let me say that if he's not going to post factually correct information, then he should not post at all. And yes, Alitalia 744 is correct, if he got caught, then don't try to shy away from it.

767-332ER. First of all. Norway is not a member of the European Union. Norway is a protectionist state and not speakers of the free market, so we have voted NO to become a member of the EU.

I am not saying that the EU is the perfect trade organization, but we like to stand outside and we even pay billions of kroner every year to sell to the EU just so that we can do trade with them without being a member!

I know Norway is a small country and even I have a hard time knowing which country is a member of the EU and which are not, I use the term Europe, as it is not a political institution, but a geographic term. Think of the EU as a trad organization just like NAFTA.

I do not say that one should not be entitled to have a different view, but one should not question the others intention of posting something different from your own view. I did not get what Udvar said about the 747-8i and the 737NG in the other thread about the A350 not being optimized, so I think we should thank Keesje for providing us with that kind of information. Even if he did not again mention the A350.But that does not matter because the 747-8i nor the 737NG was mentioned in the other thread about the A350. But still it is usefull information and we should be glad that Keesje took his time to inform us about this, since it did not appear in the other thread. At least it slipped my mind.

I hope I do not offend you. That is not my intention about this post. My intention is to inform everybody that it should be okay to post anything even if it does not provide the whole picture. The other thread did not that either.

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 21):
To get back to the point. I think we should respect all peoples comments with gratitude. You have a valid point about the A350 not being completely new. But so does Keesje. He did comment about the 747-8i and 737NG even if that was not the same shock as his comments on the A350.

True. I think it is more publicly accepted that the 747-8i and the 737NG is not that up to date, and the not yet in service A350 gets the same pointing finger. But the 737NG sells well even if it does not sell as much as the A320 it enjoyed a record year last year. And let's wait and see for the 747-8i and the A350. I hope both do well Smile

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 21):
And yes, so did Steven, although Keesje failed to mention the Boeing points, and made the whole thread to be "anti-Boeing" based on Steven's comments. Again trying to knock Boeing out again and make Airbus come out on top.

I wouldn't say anti Boeing. It is just information. You had to be blind to miss the other thread about the A350 not being optimized. And I did not get the fact that he mentioned the 747-8i and the 737NG.

But in the end both discussions are usefull. They give us a both a broader view of what is happening.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
Oykie
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 24):
Backlog of over 1000 airframes, I would say that the 737NG will be around for quite some time. Yes, the A320 is outselling the 737NG 2-1, but, the 737NG has 500 orders last year, that is still quite impresseive......

Yup! Very impressive  Smile

Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 25):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
and you fail to mention that he also mentioned...

"He said sales of the superjumbo A380 � at best "300 or 400 airplanes," he estimated � cannot compensate for missing out in the much larger midsize wide-body market."

doesn't sound too good, now does it Keesje? Smile

You just don't get it. The A350 and A380 parts have widely been discussed during the past days, now show us where the B737 and B747 comments have been discussed extensively? Keesje is merely pointing out that there is another side of the story and the only you've got to do is to bitch around that he did not mention things that the 'neutral' crowd here at a.net has been drooling over during the past days?

I like Jacobin777. He is just like Keesje. He is a pro Boeing just like Keesje is a pro Airbus, but he does not show direspect for anyone. He just points out what Keesje forgets to add. He never question what Keesje have posted. So in that way he shows respect. But at the same time are able to show his point of view.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
NW727251ADV
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:20 am

To be quite honest (and IMO) Keejse hasn't pointed out anything but the obvious. So congratulations, Keejse, I now officially proclaim you "Officially In-charge of the Obvious".

This is just classic Boeing-bashing from Keejse. I swear you are Udo from Germany that used to dominate this forum because you and him are just too similar. I will give you and inch and say that it is fair to point out the remarks made about Boeing. The problem with that is the remarks that were made by a one Mr. Stephen Udvar-Hazy isn't anything that anyone who is a 'true' aviation enthusiast have ever denied. Who doesn't already know that the 737 is a old 40-year-old design? Who hasn't really concurred that the 747-8 is only a stop-gap measure and will only sell in limited numbers? I sure haven't and I am definitely a Boeing propponent. So you posting this thread with these comments isn't really 'confirming' anything it's just 'reaffirming' what is already common knowledge. I could maybe understand if Mr. Hazy came out the mouth and said "the 737 is a flying pile of junk and a uneconomical, out-dated, fuel guzzling machine". Then I would agree that something like that needs to be brought to light. But for him to just mirror comments made by so many other people that is essentially 'old news' it just makes you appear bitter and resentful that your 'never-can-do-any-wrong-Airbus' is having some key Airbus clientel make some damaging remarks about the Airbus product. I would say its time to grow up but i'm afraid your indifference and unwillingness to give credit where its due has made you too blind to even heed a remark such as that.

I digress.

[Edited 2006-03-29 17:29:03]
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Poitin
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):

However apparenty overlooked / missed were some other (probably less interresting) remarks by Steven.

Steven said Boeing is going to have a hard time finding buyers for the passenger version of the 747-8 but it depends on how competitive Boeing can be on pricing

I agree -- the 747-8 pax will not be a popular choice. There will be orders that are already lost to the A 380, and there will be many more lost to the 787-10 and 777-300. On the other hand, I expect 40 or so 747-8F to be sold for replacement of the current 747-400F and other older F models out there. The 747F has a front loading door that makes it very useful with certain types of cargo.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Steven said the 737 is a 40-year-old design, it's narrower than Airbus' competing A320, and that's led some airlines to shy away from it.

He is absolutely right. The A320 is eating the 737's lunch and if Boeing does react, they may find it even worse in the next few years. The 737 needs to be replaced. No question about that. Will it happen? Not too soon as Boeing wants to milk it for as much as they can. That will be a mistake.

I want to see both Boeing and Airbus fighting it out tooth and nail because that means better planes and air travel for us all. Steven Udvar-Hazy and Tim Clark are certainly keeping both companies on their toes.

Keesje -- thanks for bring this up. See I can bash Boeing too  Big grin
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
leelaw
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 20):
I agree, this thread isnt as interesting as the A350 comments made, but shouldnt Hazy have made these comments before he purchased the aircraft? Whats the logic of making them now, after the company has already committed to buying at least 16 examples of the A350?

He's certainly turned on a dime since last November:

"The Airbus A350 is the natural choice for a global lessor like us," said ILFC Chairman and CEO Steven Udvar-Hazy. "The A350's innovative features combined with operational commonality with existing Airbus fleets, give it a winning performance with our customers, as well as making it an attractive asset to invest in for the future. It complements our portfolio of Airbus aircraft in which the A330 and its singe-aisle Family are the cornerstones."

http://stagev4.airbus.com/en/pressce...sreleases_items/11_22_05_ILFC.html

I'll venture to say that in the interim, potential lessees must have been whispering some very nasty things in his ear about the A350 for him to adopt such a public apostasy.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 20):
Certainly, the A350 needs modification, noone can deny that, but it isnt the likes of ILFC that will determine whether that happens and in what direction but rather the larger orders. ILFC isnt ever going to prove to be a big enough customer to make any changes to the direction of the program in the fairly significant areas Hazy is commenting on here.

Mr. Udvar-Hazy is very influential in the industry, look to see if his remarks, quickly seconded by GE, this week ultimately turn the head of Mr. Al-Baker at QR.
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Lumberton
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
He said sales of the superjumbo A380 — at best "300 or 400 airplanes," he estimated — cannot compensate for missing out in the much larger midsize wide-body market."

I found the omission of this statement in the opening post puzzling, too. Since everything Udvar-Hazy proclaims seems to warrant a thread on a.net, I'm curious why this comment hasn't inspired a hundred or so replies yet?  Wink
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:36 am

737NG was just an enhancement to an old product. Boeing knew this. The people who bought it know this. It's just as economical, if not more so, than A320, and it can fly into airports that A320 cannot. That said, A320 is wider and more modern. Boeing is working on Y1. I can hear Airbus now when Y1 debuts, saying what they always do "We believe A320 is good enough to compete with Y1). A year later when they start getting pummeled in the sales, they'll half-ass redesign A320, try to sell it as new - atleast, that's what they did with A350, and they've already said they are just going to modernize and update A320, rather than redesign it. As for 747-8, it was cheap to produce, they knew it would primarily sell as a freighter, they sold it just as an investment to keep a few airlines from buying A380s. For those who fly 747s into places A380 can't serve, or don't need or want the extra capacity, or a new aircraft, it's a good option. It won't be the class winning seller. For 1/9th the cost of A380, I don't think it has to be.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
airfrnt
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:36 am

This really isn't a surprise to anyone right? The fact that Kseeje brought it up to spin a massivly negative set of comments from one of Airbus's largest supporters isn't suprising either. No one can attack the source (ie, it's not Richard Aboufila, Boyd, or even Randy), No one can spin the interpretation (A350 in it's current iteration still not good enough), so you need to bring up other negative things.

I happen to agree with Udvar-Hazy on the A320 versus 737 battle. The 737 is a magnificant craft, with a lifespan that indicated that it truely is one of the all time aviation greats. But we don't fly around in Boeing 707 or Lockheed constellations anymore. The A320 is a newer plane, and a better product (in this market place) then the 737.

Boeing will replace with a 787ized 737 sized plane. No shock there.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
"He said sales of the superjumbo A380 — at best "300 or 400 airplanes," he estimated — cannot compensate for missing out in the much larger midsize wide-body market."

Not a shock to anyone who has honestly looked at market trends the last couple of years.

It's also not a shock that he criticizes the 748i either given that market outlook. 744s have been on their way out. All Boeing and Airbus are doing is fighting over the scraps of a much smaller plane. Boeing can afford to drop some cash and take a loss lead on a plane that siphons away high margin business from Airbus. Airbus tried to do the same thing to the 787 with the A350 before the 787 really caught on.
 
leelaw
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 25):
So he did at Boeing. But obviously it's to difficult to admit that for a 'neutral' person, as you like to describe yourself, like you.

I thought I addressed your point earlier:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 9):
The comments attributed to Mr. Udvar-Hazy regarding the 737NG and 748 in the Herald.net article seem far more sanguine, like a "two-handed economist" as Harry Truman liked to say (on the one hand...and on the other hand), compared to the lambasting he gave the A350 program yesterday.

I did make a value judgement about the differences in tone and framework between the two sets of remarks; however, I've never declared myself neutral. I've got certain opinions, viewpoints, and preferences which I freely express making neutrality on my part impossible. Perhaps you've mistaken my stance against mindless and kneejerk cheerleading as my declaration of neutrality, it's not, merely a plea for slightly more balance in the arguments presented in these threads.
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Poitin
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 32):
737NG was just an enhancement to an old product. Boeing knew this. The people who bought it know this. It's just as economical, if not more so, than A320, and it can fly into airports that A320 cannot. That said, A320 is wider and more modern. Boeing is working on Y1. I can hear Airbus now when Y1 debuts, saying what they always do "We believe A320 is good enough to compete with Y1). A year later when they start getting pummeled in the sales, they'll half-ass redesign A320, try to sell it as new - atleast, that's what they did with A350, and they've already said they are just going to modernize and update A320, rather than redesign it. As for 747-8, it was cheap to produce, they knew it would primarily sell as a freighter, they sold it just as an investment to keep a few airlines from buying A380s. For those who fly 747s into places A380 can't serve, or don't need or want the extra capacity, or a new aircraft, it's a good option. It won't be the class winning seller. For 1/9th the cost of A380, I don't think it has to be.

You know, I think you saw the movie already Big grin Please don't give away the ending, we really should keep them all in suspense.
 bigthumbsup 
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
MarcoT
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
"He said sales of the superjumbo A380 — at best "300 or 400 airplanes," he estimated — cannot compensate for missing out in the much larger midsize wide-body market."

doesn't sound too good, now does it Keesje?

Maybe I'm having a senior moment, but in the article Keesje linked: http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/03/29/100bus_corliss001.cfm there's no reference whatsoever to the A380. They are in the SeattleTimes article...

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 24):
Backlog of over 1000 airframes, I would say that the 737NG will be around for quite some time. Yes, the A320 is outselling the 737NG 2-1, but, the 737NG has 500 orders last year, that is still quite impresseive.....

IIRC last year set the sales record for Airbus widebody too, yet even in the end year result conference, Forgeard and/or Humbert acknowledged the writing on the wall for the A340 in its present incarnation.

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 28):
Who hasn't really concurred that the 747-8 is only a stop-gap measure and will only sell in limited numbers? I sure haven't and I am definitely a Boeing propponent.

Don't know you, but in this very recent thread:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2677110
some Boeing fan people tried to dismiss this

Quote:

International Lease Finance (ILFC) chief executive Steven Udvar-Hazy predicts a new surge in interest in the Airbus A380 following certification and service entry at the end of 2006. He forecasts that the planned A380-900 stretch will ultimately become the best-selling variant.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...FC+predicts+A380+demand+surge.html

hinting that Udvar-Hazy has a vested interest in finding clients for the A380s that he have on order, like some sort of third rate used car salesmen...

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 30):
He's certainly turned on a dime since last November:

"The Airbus A350 is the natural choice for a global lessor like us," said ILFC Chairman and CEO Steven Udvar-Hazy.

To be fair the above was, i think, at an order signing cerimony...
Nonetheless I fully agree with you pointed in the other thread, Udvar-Hazy's frankness was frankly remarkable Smile

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 30):
Mr. Udvar-Hazy is very influential in the industry, look to see if his remarks, quickly seconded by GE, this week ultimately turn the head of Mr. Al-Baker at QR.

Looking at the flip side, a man in Udvar-Hazy's position don't say such things just for fun, so in a way this means that he *believes* in the potentialities of a reworked A350 *and* in the capacity of Airbus to pulling this off...
It is obviously true that Udvar-Hazy look at the bottom line of ILFC and not at the Airbus' one, but an unsuccessfull 'new' A350 or Airbus going bankrupt trying to build it would be somewhat worse for ILFC than the present situation. Naturally his judgement on risk taking may be a bit different...
Too short space for my favorite hopelessly long winded one liner
 
767-332ER
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 26):

But in the end both discussions are usefull. They give us a both a broader view of what is happening.

I definitely accept your post and I apologize at the same time. You are a class act.
Regards
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
andessmf
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:27 am

OK, so Udvar-Hazy is making comments about the cabin width of both 737 and A350, I guess we all have to say we are wrong about the importance about fuselage size. I was wrong about the 737 and others wrong about the size of the A300 fuselage. Both have outlived their usefulness.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
Alan R. Mulally, CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, standing on the right, looks pretty happy with what he's hearing. Are there any pictures of Leahy's reaction, Keesje?

Most folks stopped challenging me for sources / links. NAV20 did I ever dissapoint you?

Nice pics Keesje. The A380 scale models are selling quite well-even I have a little one on my bookshelf.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Oykie
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 37):
I definitely accept your post and I apologize at the same time. You are a class act.
Regards

Hi 767-332ER! Thank you for your apology.  Smile

I do not know about the "class act" though  Smile

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 39):
Nice pics Keesje. The A380 scale models are selling quite well-even I have a little one on my bookshelf.

Should have bought one scale model my self, but I opted for the A340-300 at Airbus souvenir shop since SAS just got them. I should have opted for the A330-200 scale model, since the A330-200 offer much lower CASM  Smile
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:23 am

Oooh boy, this thread beat the record for the 'fastest thread to go to hell'.  wink 
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 41):
Oooh boy, this thread beat the record for the 'fastest thread to go to hell'.

Well, start as you mean to go on!  Wink
 
travelin man
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Steven said the 737 is a 40-year-old design, it's narrower than Airbus' competing A320, and that's led some airlines to shy away from it.

In other news, the sky is blue.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:29 am

Well, I agree with the 748i and 737 comments.

But it's not really news.

The 748i will likely need to be sold at a discount. 737 needs replacing ASAP. I expect project launch after 787 first flight. That would mean about 4th quarter 2007 or first quarter 2008.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
travelin man
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:31 am

Hmmm.... apparently the 737's age isn't stopping leasing companies from buying it.....

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2687993/
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:35 am

I am surprised by some of the comments.

I would have thought there was a good market for a size between the B77W and A388 = B748i.

Furthermore, the SkyLoft offers great modularisation for airlines. If not a business lounge or premium beds then a simple and not-too-hard-to-conceive upper galley which means more space on the main deck for either more seats or amenities like a bar etc...

Hmph!
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
WAH64D
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 5):
answer my question keesje - exactly what was your point with this thread other than to do what you've done in hundreds of other threads?

everyone on Airliners.net knows how great you are at selectivity, especially when it comes to knocking Boeing and building up Airbus.

so your answer?



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 14):
and that's fine, but there are two sides of the stick, so when it's time for your cheerleaders to get beaten, don't bitch if you don't want us to bitch.

fair sport no?

Wise up, why don't you?

I actually found it quite amusing. I think that was Keesje's point in all of this. We've seen numerous posts over the past few days with the usual suspects agreeing how poorly designed the old-tech A350 is.

Then Keesje brings up Budvar-Crazy's comments about the B737 with its nose straight off the B720 and the remainder of its 50 year old fuselage design. You can't have it both ways, if the A350 is old-tech, the B737NG is positively prehistoric!
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
khobar
Posts: 1336
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RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Steven said Boeing is going to have a hard time finding buyers for the passenger version of the 747-8 but it depends on how competitive Boeing can be on pricing

What's the problem with this comment? It's true.

Quote:

Steven said the 737 is a 40-year-old design, it's narrower than Airbus' competing A320, and that's led some airlines to shy away from it.

How does a wider A320 help an airline's economics?

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 21):
This is the biggest crock ever!!! So basically post half of what was said so that if favors Airbus?

That's very Rush Limbaugh of them, eh?
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 47):
You can't have it both ways, if the A350 is old-tech, the B737NG is positively prehistoric!

The difference is that the 737 is still being sold in large numbers, while the A350 is...... not.

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