OPNLguy
Topic Author
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New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:41 am

As the other one hit the 200-post threshold, here's part-2 for our dial-up friends...

If you're looking for something from the old one, it's at:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2671403/

[Edited 2006-03-29 20:46:07]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
steeler83
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:17 am

I think that MattRB made a decent post on that last thread... Two E/W runways and all the stuff that WN would need with in the same ballpark of cost as they have at DAL... I think that would actually work. I said before, I really do not have any problem with them moving to DFW. Wherever WN can go to make a profit and remain very competitive, that is what I would like to see.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Tornado82
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:28 am

MattRB's plan would cost billions, with a B.
 
steeler83
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 2):
MattRB's plan would cost billions, with a B.

Oh yea, duhh... Forgot about the construction of the facilities. Maybe I should change my name to clown83 for making foolish post after foolish post...  silly   dopey 
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
tismfu
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 1):
I think that MattRB made a decent post on that last thread... Two E/W runways and all the stuff that WN would need with in the same ballpark of cost as they have at DAL...

I'm no ATC, but wouldn't that create horrible alignment issues with the primarily N/S runways used at DFW? In a hypothetical, legal issues-aside world, if DFW were to build WN their own runways, wouldn't they want them to be N/S?

I think the only possible 'special treatment' WN would get at DFW is their own terminal, perhaps a terminal like Boeing7E7 mentioned a while back which would stretch across South Int'l Parkway and thus afford WN quick access to/from either side of the airport.
 
MattRB
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 2):
MattRB's plan would cost billions, with a B.

Yes it would, but WN would be flying out of DFW in a cost structure compatible with thier operating model. And this whole W/S bs would be done and over with.

'Course, like I also said, we could just repeal some legislation and call it a day as well.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
MattRB
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting Tismfu (Reply 4):
I'm no ATC, but wouldn't that create horrible alignment issues with the primarily N/S runways used at DFW? In a hypothetical, legal issues-aside world, if DFW were to build WN their own runways, wouldn't they want them to be N/S?

Probably. But the space at the south end of the field won't allow for an 18/36 alignment.. hence the 13/31 mix.. which won't work since you'd have A/C criscrossing on the glidepaths when landing N

Quoting Tismfu (Reply 4):
I think the only possible 'special treatment' WN would get at DFW is their own terminal, perhaps a terminal like Boeing7E7 mentioned a while back which would stretch across South Int'l Parkway and thus afford WN quick access to/from either side of the airport.

Now if they coupled that with an offer of the same rent/landing fees for a guaranteed period (talking decades long), that might work.. but a snowball would have a better chance of surviving hell..
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
steeler83
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting MattRB (Reply 6):
Now if they coupled that with an offer of the same rent/landing fees for a guaranteed period (talking decades long), that might work..

That is true...

Quoting MattRB (Reply 6):
but a snowball would have a better chance of surviving hell..

And so it this... It looks like WN is stuck between a rock and a hard place for the time being...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
txagkuwait
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:17 am

>>And so it this... It looks like WN is stuck between a rock and a hard place for the time being...<<

It won't be for long, though.

One thing congressmen like to be able to do is tell their constituents that they've done something nice for them. Particularly in an election year.

The delegations from TN, AZ, NV, NE...maybe CO and FL too....would love to be able tell voters that they've sponsored legislation that reduces the cost of travel.

Wonder why WN has not yet announced more new cities? They might very well be planning to pony up new service to some city in return for a certain congressman sponsoring certain legislation.

The elections are 7 months away, in November. Folks are not going to be willing to let the two cities attempt to work out a deal when they've never been able to agree to one before.

The talk of compromise is hysterically funny - you ought to read some of the stuff in the FW Startlegram. When the subject of compromise comes up, American states "Wright was the compromise" and offer to go no further. When Dallas broaches the subject of Alliance, Fort Worth says that is not a subject up for discussion. When Fort Worth mentions a total closure of Love Field, Dallas just laughs.

Travel between Dallas and other places outside the WA penumbra is interstate commerce. Thus the issue is not strictly local.

Wright is going away. The only question is what form will its departure take.
 
MattRB
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 8):
Wright is going away. The only question is what form will its departure take.

Agreed. The dam wall is slowly being chipped away at and we're getting close to seeing either a partial or total collapse altogether. Either way, I'll bet WN will be serving more destinations out of DAL by the end of the year.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
KabAir
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:27 am

I don't get this whole thing. I'm anti-Wright, but if were the CEO of WN (this is probably why I'm not)  Smile I'd do things a lot differently. I'd say "OK, forget it" and move operations COMPLETELY out of Dallas. HQ, gone, and every last flight gone. Then I'd find some non anti-competitive city and start up a sizeable operation there, replacing what I had in DAL except now I can fly wherever I want. Sure it'll cost a lot of money to move HQ, pull out of a city, and start a new one - but I'd be able to make a lot more flying wherever I wanted plus I wouldn't spend millions upon millions trying to change legislation.

Then the mommies and daddies and kiddies in the DFW area would all be safe from the blight of WN and could really enjoy living in Dallas. And I mean they'd better REALLY enjoy being there because they won't be going on vacation anytime soon what with WN gone and AA's new $24,000 one way fares to OKC.
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
MattRB
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting KabAir (Reply 10):
but if were the CEO of WN (this is probably why I'm not)

Quite  Wink

Burning bridges in the business is never a smart move. WN pulling up and out of Dallas wouldn't garner them any brownie points with ANY of the cities they serve and would more than likely cast a negative pall over the company among businesses and travellers alike (erecting a billboard over DAL comprised of a giant middle finger and the words "FU Dallas!" underneath would accomplish pretty much the same thing).
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting KabAir (Reply 10):
AA's new $24,000 one way fares to OKC.

Sssh!  shhh  They might hear you...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
steeler83
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting MattRB (Reply 11):
Burning bridges in the business is never a smart move. WN pulling up and out of Dallas wouldn't garner them any brownie points with ANY of the cities they serve and would more than likely cast a negative pall over the company among businesses and travellers alike (erecting a billboard over DAL comprised of a giant middle finger and the words "FU Dallas!" underneath would accomplish pretty much the same thing).

Yeah, that would definitely give off a bad vibe to the rest of the traveling universe... If they were to do that, which city would the move to, Amarillo, Lubbock, Dodge City??? How about moving down the road to Waco... I dunno, I am no expert in this... The trouble with that, absolutely no competition, and in the middle of no where...

Quoting KabAir (Reply 10):
Then the mommies and daddies and kiddies in the DFW area would all be safe from the blight of WN and could really enjoy living in Dallas. And I mean they'd better REALLY enjoy being there because they won't be going on vacation anytime soon what with WN gone and AA's new $24,000 one way fares to OKC.

I have to say that I do like the humor in this  Wink
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
txagkuwait
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:27 am

>>$24,000 one way fares to OKC.<<

Now, now, you can get a round trip for $16,000 with 21 day advance purchase. Assigned seating on the luxurious SAAB 340. And 360 AAdvantage miles to boot.

How could anyone pass up a deal like that?
 
steeler83
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 14):
>>$24,000 one way fares to OKC.<<

Now, now, you can get a round trip for $16,000 with 21 day advance purchase. Assigned seating on the luxurious SAAB 340. And 360 AAdvantage miles to boot.

How could anyone pass up a deal like that?

that's even better!!!

Make it a vintage DC-3 and you've got yourself a deal!  Wink
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
KabAir
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:43 am

LOL, great stuff. I know you guys are all right, they couldn't just pull out of Dallas. And it wouldn't be smart, you're right. It's just my emotional reaction to the whole thing. Seems funny to me that the government likes to bail out near-death airlines (via Ch.11) but penalize one of the few that is actually a money maker and really good for their employees and the economy. And yes, yes I know that Ch.11 is designed to help creditors too and blah blah blah but I still think it's a real problem.
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
USPIT10L
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:48 am

"I see you're unemployed--tried applying at SWA/PIT?"

I thought about it when WN started service here, but the thought of long lines, and more ex-US Airways applicants than you could shake a stick at made me cautious. Yes, I love WN and what they've done for the airline industry. Plus, using every trick PSA ever used doesn't hurt either. Time will tell, maybe I will get on with WN someday. Right now, I'm just trying to do whatever I can do to make a buck. Thanks, though.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
steeler83
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:48 am

Yeah, I think the vulnerability level skyrockets as a result...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
tismfu
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 14):
And 360 AAdvantage miles to boot.

There's a 500-mile minimum on all AA flights.  Wink
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting MattRB (Reply 5):
Yes it would, but WN would be flying out of DFW in a cost structure compatible with thier operating model. And this whole W/S bs would be done and over with.

You don't need what you propose. A cross field terminal on the South side of DFW is sufficient to allow Southwest greater airfield access and can be done for about $250 million. Add a sixth North/South runway and elimination of the cross runways and DFW's agregate handling rate (coupled with DAL operation removal) increases from 297 to 322 flights per hour. Add two more close parallels over time and you net about 380-400 operations per hour. What you propose diminishes capacity, thus increases costs.

[Edited 2006-03-30 01:13:50]
 
cjpark
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:55 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 8):
One thing congressmen like to be able to do is tell their constituents that they've done something nice for them. Particularly in an election year.

The delegations from TN, AZ, NV, NE...maybe CO and FL too....would love to be able tell voters that they've sponsored legislation that reduces the cost of travel.

Wonder why WN has not yet announced more new cities? They might very well be planning to pony up new service to some city in return for a certain congressman sponsoring certain legislation.

I can hear them now. Hey while I could not get that new road/bridge/levy/project funding/displaced worker program/etc for your City but at least you can now fly cheaply to Dallas.

See I am looking out for you. Vote for me!

Then during the next election they swear that WN promised they would start service from our airport we don't understand what happened.

Repeal of the WA does not affect as many people as the drove would like to pretend it might affect. There are few Congressional Districts where suggested service would be enough to sway votes in Congress. Those that could have all ready signed up and yet they still don't have enough sponsors to assure a vote anytime during this Congress.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
HPLASOps
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 8):
The delegations from TN, AZ, NV, NE...maybe CO and FL too....would love to be able tell voters that they've sponsored legislation that reduces the cost of travel

That's right, keep acting like WN's problem is America's problem. America is in aviation hell because WN chose to operate out of an inferior airport. Are you going to be wearing "Gary Kelly for President" buttons anytime soon? What about a tshirt? I mean really, this whole Southwest is the messiah airline that is saving America from the evil airlines business is making me puke.

"Kill off US, and DOZENS of cities in our fine country, and in the most populous quadrant of our county at that, lose vital business links across the Northeast. Is Southwest ever going to serve Binghamton, NY, Erie, PA, Charleston, WV, or Salisbury, MD? I think not. Should their travelers be forced to start driving 150 miles to the next-nearest airport in the harsh winter snows because Southwest killed off the only airlines serving these cities? Nope. I don't want to pay more highway taxes to fund all these people who now have to drive either." (Tornado82 - from the previous thread)

Kinda hard for the aviation messiah to please everyone, now is it? I would now like to public thank Southwest Airlines. Thank you for lowering the standards of air travel. Thank you for making passengers expect less from an airline. Thank you for forcing passengers to stand in the A line for 2 freaking hours at an airport like idiots just so they can have their choice of seat. Thank you for advertising really low fares for low demand flights and then charging the same as every other airline on high demand flights. Thank you for choosing a different business model than every other airline and then trying to get the government to accomodate you. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
Tornado82
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 21):
I can hear them now. Hey while I could not get that new road/bridge/levy/project funding/displaced worker program/etc for your City but at least you can now fly cheaply to Dallas.

To how many people does flying cheaply to Dallas appeal to? I can think of dozens of people in my family who couldn't give 2 craps of the price to Dallas. My grandma wouldn't even go up with me at the controls in a Cessna, let alone "that airline that killed that little boy." And everyone has grandma's, aunt's, etc. just like mine who don't fly, period, but won't miss an election for anything, so this issue is a non-issue to them. That new prescription drug plan, or that social security check is a far bigger issue than anything aviation related.

Even in the biggest cities, maybe 1500 a day will benefit from cheaper fares to/from Dallas., and you can assume many of those are repeat flyers who do the run over and over and over again. So maybe, just maybe, at the end of the Congressional term you've pleased 5000 people in your district. Now chances are only half of those people will vote, that's a national trend. You're down to 2500. Now chances are that over over half of those people already voted for you anyways, after all, you're already in office. Now you're down to 1000 people. Well, half of those remaining people wouldn't vote for someone of your party if their life depended on it. Now you're down to 500 people. Well, you voted for ____ (abortion, immigrants, taxes, etc.) and you pissed off half of the remaining people who may have voted for you.

Congratulations, allowing Southwest to fly from your city to Dallas earned you 250 new voters. But let's say there are 20 American Airlines employees in your district at that airport you just let Southwest fly to DAL from, there are also 20 USAirways employees, and 20 Delta employees who remember how their bretheren got furloughed in the closure of the DFW hub. Well they each tell their spouses not to vote for you either, and some of their kids listen as well, because you just spoonfed the enemy. So, at the end of it, bringing Southwest to your district netted you less than 100 new votes. In an election as large as a Congressional district, VERY FEW come down to 100 votes. Let's not forget people like me, a good way for Santorum and Specter to guarantee I wouldn't vote for them (not that I'd ever vote for an extremeist like Santorum anyways) is to further harm all the other legacy carriers, therefore the industry as a whole, by giving spoonfed leglisative benefits to Southwest Airlines. At the end of the day, any Congressmen that haven't been explicitly given kickbacks from Southwest are NOT going to vote for Wright repeal. Do you think a Senator from Iowa, where Southwest doesn't fly at all, cares? How about that Senator from Vermont? Or the powerful Mr. Byrd from West Virginia? Maybe those guys from the Dakotas? Montana? Alaska and Hawaii? Why are they going to vote for Southwest Airlines' benefit while harming the airlines that DO serve their states?

I'd LOVE to see the campaign contributions received by some of these vocal Southwest-supporter politicians though. Just like when Santorum tried killing off the National Weather Service, and had received 10s of thousands from AccuWeather... hidden in the names of the wives of AccuWeather's CEO, BoD, etc.
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:31 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 22):
Kinda hard for the aviation messiah to please everyone, now is it? I would now like to public thank Southwest Airlines. Thank you for lowering the standards of air travel. Thank you for making passengers expect less from an airline. Thank you for forcing passengers to stand in the A line for 2 freaking hours at an airport like idiots just so they can have their choice of seat. Thank you for advertising really low fares for low demand flights and then charging the same as every other airline on high demand flights. Thank you for choosing a different business model than every other airline and then trying to get the government to accomodate you. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I know you're relatively new to the industry, but you really should consider looking at the history of the industry. If you did, I think you'd realize how off-base your comments are.

SWA has never claimed to be the "messiah" you think, and such characterizations (and the behaviors that accompany them) are yours alone.

Go back and look at any industry, (steel, automobiles, passenger railroads. etc.) and you'll see that they had a lifecycle. They were once all well-established industries, but then "change" came. Some firms in them adapted well, some not as well, and some not at all.

In the case of the airlines, the milestone was deregulation in 1978. Under the old system, roues and fares were dictated by the CAB. If Airline-A signed a new labor contract that increased their costs, Airline-A went to CAB and requested (and usually got) a fare hike to cover it. This kind of system didn't foster the need for effeiciency, since one's cost were always getting covered.

Southwest never operated under that system, since its formative years (1971-1978) were under the Texas Aeronautics Commission (TAC), and not the CAB. With no "Sugardaddy" system in place, Southwest had to be efficient from Day-1, and that mindset continues to the present day.

After deregulation in 1978, the market (and not the CAB) dictated fares and routes, and various airlines adapted to varying degrees. I'm sorry that you feel that Southwest is somehow the "Great Satan" of the airline business, but I'm afraid that's an overly simplistic analysis. Rather than get your information via anecdotes and "I heard that.." you might try some objective reading in various books that are out there...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
HPLASOps
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:18 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 24):
Rather than get your information via anecdotes and "I heard that.." you might try some objective reading in various books that are out there...

Care to recommend some books that weren't written by WN folk? I'd be happy to read up.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
HPLASOps
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 24):
SWA has never claimed to be the "messiah" you think, and such characterizations (and the behaviors that accompany them) are yours alone.

I didn't imply that WN claimed themselves to be such, but rather, you and TxAg seem to be such loyal "followers."

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 24):
Go back and look at any industry, (steel, automobiles, passenger railroads. etc.) and you'll see that they had a lifecycle. They were once all well-established industries, but then "change" came. Some firms in them adapted well, some not as well, and some not at all.

And they all have adapted, all at significant loses no less. Has the industry completely bended over and said "Anything WN says must be right?" I realize business is about adapting and surviving. It's also about playing a fair game. If you choose a business model where you avoid competition and try to minimize costs in everyway possible, then you shouldn't complain when a location has restrictions placed on it to justify the low costs of operation.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 25):
Care to recommend some books that weren't written by WN folk? I'd be happy to read up.

Sure...

-John Nance's "Flying Colors"...

-From Prairie To Planes, Payne & Fitzpatrick, ISBN #1-893451-00-3, Three Forks Press

A complete history of the DFW Airport. This book is a treasure-trove of background history, politics, and the events leading up to the construction of DFW Airport. It also treats the Wright Amendment development with good detail. This book was commissioned by DFW Airport as part of their 25th anniversary celebration.

-Hard Landing, Petzinger, ISBN #0-8129-2186-0, Times-Business Press
This book goes into the nitty gritty (recorded conversations between airline CEO's, etc...) to show how collusion was the "accepted" method of running airlines. Well, ONE airline. Reading this book is like eavesdropping on a really juicy story. In fact, it tells in detail how AA's Bob Crandall invented "Yield Management" pricing strategies; that's why you paid $500 more than the guy next to you on your flight. From an historic business perspective, it's a fascinating read. It covers the Wright Amendment debacle in enormous detail

-Of course, there's always "Nuts!" about SWA... (Not written by anyone here, but still a good view of us...)
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
dalneighbor
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:51 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 2):
MattRB's plan would cost billions, with a B.

Yet the Pro-Wright parade is expecting just that from WN. Leave a perfectly already paid for airport and rebuild all your infrastructure 10 miles away and create more congestion at an inferior airport for your operations. Show me the company that is willing to do that and I'll show you the next company in the graveyard.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
Tornado82
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:05 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 28):

Yet the Pro-Wright parade is expecting just that from WN. Leave a perfectly already paid for airport and rebuild all your infrastructure 10 miles away and create more congestion at an inferior airport for your operations. Show me the company that is willing to do that and I'll show you the next company in the graveyard.

If WN only has a couple hundred million in infrastructure assets at DAL (and that's probably generous) it's not going to cost BILLIONS to move to DFW. DAL might be in the hood, but it's not like they're moving to the Hamptons.

[Edited 2006-03-30 06:09:12]
 
dalneighbor
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:28 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 29):
If WN only has a couple hundred million in infrastructure assets at DAL (and that's probably generous) it's not going to cost BILLIONS to move to DFW. DAL might be in the hood, but it's not like they're moving to the Hamptons.

Graveyard.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
Tornado82
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:32 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 30):

Graveyard.

Yeah, just like happened to every airline that left old Stapleton, right?
 
SPREE34
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 31):
Yeah, just like happened to every airline that left old Stapleton, right?

Poor analogy. Stapleton was closed on day 1 of DIA's operation.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
SPREE34
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:29 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 24):
With no "Sugardaddy" system in place, Southwest had to be efficient from Day-1, and that mindset continues to the present day.

After deregulation in 1978, the market (and not the CAB) dictated fares and routes, and various airlines adapted to varying degrees. I'm sorry that you feel that Southwest is somehow the "Great Satan" of the airline business, but I'm afraid that's an overly simplistic analysis. Rather than get your information via anecdotes and "I heard that.." you might try some objective reading in various books that are out there

So well put sir!! As is becoming so common in US society, the guy who gets out and succeeds by working hard is vilified by those who had "Sweetheart" and/or "Sugardaddy" deals along the way.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
dalneighbor
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 31):
Yeah, just like happened to every airline that left old Stapleton, right?

No airline was headquartered at Stapelton.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
Tornado82
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:10 am

Ok fine. US was at old PIT, moved to new PIT, and was quite profitable in the years immediately following. It wasn't until later that US started losing money.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 34):
No airline was headquartered at Stapelton.

Actually, Frontier (v1.0) was...

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 33):
So well put sir!! As is becoming so common in US society, the guy who gets out and succeeds by working hard is vilified by those who had "Sweetheart" and/or "Sugardaddy" deals along the way.

I should hasten to add that Southwest wasn't the only airline that propered that didn't operate under the old CAB system. America West formed up in 1982, and, of course, subsequent years also saw Valujet/AirTran, Frontier (v2.0), Spirit, and jetBlue, and others. The former CAB-regulated carriers, as a group, haven't done very well, with Eastern, Pan Am, National (v1.0), Braniff, and TWA gone, Continental, United, ATA, and USAirways having gone through the Chapter 11 process (some more than once), and Northwest and Delta still in the Chapter 11 process. And, meanwhile, Alaska Airlines keeps on plugging away...

Just goes to demonstrate the old addage, "adapt or die..." Southwest didn't have to adapt, as it was operating under the new business model from Day-1. At the time, compared to everyone else still under the CAB system, that new business model was a "curse" of sorts--it forced one to work harder and smarter. Now, today, it's deemed by some as an "unfair advantage."  Yeah sure
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
cjpark
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 34):
No airline was headquartered at Stapelton.

What does that have to do with anything? Exxon is headquartered in Irving but all the headquarters is, is an office building. Same as for WN just an office building except that it is located at an airport.

United did have a large MX base and training facility at Stapelton. While WN also has a MX base at and training facility at DAL unless the airport is closed there is no need to move it. WN could operate at DFW and still maintain its MX base at DAL.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
steeler83
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 35):
Ok fine. US was at old PIT, moved to new PIT, and was quite profitable in the years immediately following. It wasn't until later that US started losing money.

Yeah, years later I think in the late 90s... Then 9-11 essentially put a dagger right through its heart...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 37):
While WN also has a MX base at and training facility at DAL unless the airport is closed there is no need to move it. WN could operate at DFW and still maintain its MX base at DAL.

...and eat the cost of ferrying 15 aircraft DFW-DAL for overnight maintenance work and then ferrying them all back DAL-DFW early in the morning?

Not bloody likely...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
txagkuwait
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:53 am

>>...and eat the cost of ferrying 15 aircraft DFW-DAL for overnight maintenance work and then ferrying them all back DAL-DFW early in the morning?

Not bloody likely...<<

No, not very likely at all.

I would expect to see the aircraft taxiied down Mockingbird to Loop 12, then catch 183 West to DFW.

I have no doubt that Southwest pilots can manage to keep up with traffic, although I would expect them to get on the road by 4:30 am...5 at the latest...to avoid the rush.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 40):
I would expect to see the aircraft taxiied down Mockingbird to Loop 12, then catch 183 West to DFW.

I have no doubt that Southwest pilots can manage to keep up with traffic, although I would expect them to get on the road by 4:30 am...5 at the latest...to avoid the rush.

Of course, in addition to the added cost of cross-ferrying aircraft, there's also the added expense of modifying all 451 aircraft so that the vertical stabilizer and wingtips will fold up (like the aircraft carrier birds) so we can make it under the various bridges enroute...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
txagkuwait
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:13 am

Or just demolish the bridges. In the big scheme of things, that probably won't cost the city any more than closing Love Field would.
 
ScottB
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 35):
Ok fine. US was at old PIT, moved to new PIT, and was quite profitable in the years immediately following

At the time, USAir wasn't headquartered at PIT, and they only moved to the new terminal. The airport is still in the same location. The new PIT terminal opened October 1, 1992. USAir lost $1.229 billion in 1992, $393 million in 1993, and $685 million in 1994; they finally returned to profitability with net earnings of $119 million in 1995.

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 26):
And they all have adapted, all at significant loses no less. Has the industry completely bended over and said "Anything WN says must be right?" I realize business is about adapting and surviving. It's also about playing a fair game. If you choose a business model where you avoid competition and try to minimize costs in everyway possible, then you shouldn't complain when a location has restrictions placed on it to justify the low costs of operation.

Well, what seems to be far more important than the industry "bending over," as you worded it, is the warm embrace afforded to Southwest's product by the traveling public. Southwest and America West have competed between PHX and LAS for over two decades. America West (now US Airways, of course) offers perks like frequent flights, assigned seating, first class, airport clubs, miles usable for international travel, etc. But as of the second quarter of 2005, Southwest held 79% market share between PHX and LAS. In just over one year at PHL, Southwest achieved over 60% market share between PHL and MHT/PVD and over 50% market share between PHL and BDL. In two months, they achieved 40% market share between PIT and PHL.

If the customers weren't satisfied with what Southwest provides relative to the fare paid, they would not have one of the lowest incidences of complaints in the industry per passenger -- generally far, far lower than the network carriers. Most of the network carrier responses to Southwest -- Metrojet, United Shuttle, Delta Express, etc. -- are on the scrap heap of the industry's history.

In any event, the Wright Amendment wasn't imposed on Love Field because DAL had lower costs than DFW; rather, it was ostensibly proposed to protect DFW Airport, which was in Jim Wright's district, from having to compete for passenger service with DAL. Given that Wright represented Fort Worth, he needed to protect the large new airport that provided Fort Worth with some veneer of equality with Dallas. FW had long faced an inferiority complex when looking at its larger neighbor to the east. I restate: The Wright Amendment was imposed to protect a fledgling DFW (and its largest carriers) from competition -- not because DAL was inferior or less expensive. Today, DFW's higher costs and debt bloat stem largely from poor management, not from being "weakened" by DAL.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 31):
Yeah, just like happened to every airline that left old Stapleton, right?

Actually, the move from Stapleton resulted (at least partially) in the shutdown of Continental's hub at DEN.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 43):
Given that Wright represented Fort Worth, he needed to protect the large new airport that provided Fort Worth with some veneer of equality with Dallas. FW had long faced an inferiority complex when looking at its larger neighbor to the east.

One of the most overlooked aspects of the issue, not to mention one of the most insidious as far as decsionmaking goes...

Nicely worded!  thumbsup 
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 27):
-John Nance's "Flying Colors"...

-From Prairie To Planes, Payne & Fitzpatrick, ISBN #1-893451-00-3, Three Forks Press

A complete history of the DFW Airport. This book is a treasure-trove of background history, politics, and the events leading up to the construction of DFW Airport. It also treats the Wright Amendment development with good detail. This book was commissioned by DFW Airport as part of their 25th anniversary celebration.

-Hard Landing, Petzinger, ISBN #0-8129-2186-0, Times-Business Press
This book goes into the nitty gritty (recorded conversations between airline CEO's, etc...) to show how collusion was the "accepted" method of running airlines. Well, ONE airline. Reading this book is like eavesdropping on a really juicy story. In fact, it tells in detail how AA's Bob Crandall invented "Yield Management" pricing strategies; that's why you paid $500 more than the guy next to you on your flight. From an historic business perspective, it's a fascinating read. It covers the Wright Amendment debacle in enormous detail

-Of course, there's always "Nuts!" about SWA... (Not written by anyone here, but still a good view of us...)

I have Hard Landing and Nuts! and have read Flying Colors. Where can I get From Prairie to Planes? I would love to read it!
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
cjpark
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RE: A New Twist On The Wright Amendment Debate

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 39):
...and eat the cost of ferrying 15 aircraft DFW-DAL for overnight maintenance work and then ferrying them all back DAL-DFW early in the morning?

Not bloody likely...

Never Say Never OP!

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 42):
Or just demolish the bridges. In the big scheme of things, that probably won't cost the city any more than closing Love Field would.

Now now we all know how much more valuable Love Field is to the City as taxable private property than in its current usage.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 44):
One of the most overlooked aspects of the issue, not to mention one of the most insidious as far as decsionmaking goes...

Nicely worded!

How convenient to forget that both Cities went to Congress to find a compromise to end the constant litigation between the two cities but then being honest about facts and intentions does not always suit WN's purpose does it?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
dalneighbor
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 36):
Actually, Frontier (v1.0) was...

Even better... Graveyard.

Spending a billion with a B (as T82 put it), for WN to recreate all of its infrastructure 10 miles away would be stupid. You can call WN management what you want, but one thing they aren't is stupid.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
ScottB
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 46):
How convenient to forget that both Cities went to Congress to find a compromise to end the constant litigation between the two cities but then being honest about facts and intentions

How convenient for you to mischaracterize the history behind the Wright Amendment. Jim Wright was behind the Wright Amendment, not some fictional request by the City of Dallas. The litigation over Southwest operating from DAL had been over for a few years and adjudicated in Southwest's favor before Jim Wright came up with that gem. The stipulation in the bond agreements requiring Dallas to end commercial passenger service from DAL was found by the courts to be illegal and thus unenforceable. But I guess this demonstrates your honesty about "facts and intentions."
 
Tornado82
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RE: New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 47):
Spending a billion with a B (as T82 put it), for WN to recreate all of its infrastructure 10 miles away would be stupid.

It wouldn't be a Billion for Southwest to move their stuff. It would have been a Billion for NEW stuff for Southwest PLUS new runways and terminals.

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 47):
You can call WN management what you want, but one thing they aren't is stupid.

They did stay at DAL...

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