Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

Avro ARROW....

Thu Jun 08, 2000 10:42 am

I just finished watching the Avro ARROW mini-series on CBS, and it got me wondering, what other people thought of it, and how many people out there like to think that one got away....I know this topic comes up every once in a while so here it is again....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 12:43 pm

RE: Avro ARROW....

Thu Jun 08, 2000 10:58 am

All I can say is the Canadian government really F**KED UP on the Arrow, but I guess that's what the plan was - any type of successful industry in Canada, kill it off.(Not that it was just the Canadian government - do I smell conspiracy?) At least Bombardier has become big now, but could you imagine if 40 years ago Canadian aerospace was allowed to continue with what they had? And to top it off, they scrapped all 'evidence' of this great aircraft, only the forward fuselage and landing gear survive in Ottawa. What a great way to preserve Canadian aviation history...(I'm being sarcastic, of course)
Carioca Canuck
Posts: 632
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2000 4:03 pm

RE: Avro ARROW....

Thu Jun 08, 2000 11:09 am

It was a great series......and it was especially nice to see Dan Akroyd (a Canuck BTW) playing the part of Gordon.

It's shame that idiot Diefenbaker killed the project. for Canadair/Bombardier.........if they were not based in Montreal do you think they'd still be around ?

Not I.....I'm afraid.
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Avro ARROW....

Thu Jun 08, 2000 11:13 am

The real shame is that the C-102 Jetliner never went into productions. The government ordered Avro to stop all work on it in order to concentrate on the CF-100 contract, even though Avro managed to sign up some customers, even without TCA buying it (which was a shame as well, but I can understand that the change of engines disinterested them).
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Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Avro ARROW....

Thu Jun 08, 2000 11:17 am

I agree with pronto, ifthe stupid fools in Ottawa had let AVRO continue then we would be among the leaders in all aspects of aviation.....well ahead ot the americans, I'm the movie points out, the F18 is Canada;s top fighter, yet it doesn't come close to meeting the design specs of 206.....Not to mention the commercial airliner, oh sorry JETLINER..that was a canadian trademark, until the rest of the world started using it genericly...That airplane was a number of years ahead of the 720/707, and was only released 2 weeks to the day after the commect, because the brits didn't want a commonwealth contry to out do the mother land. It is a real shame the our government made such a huge mistake, although i'm sure that the US had it's hand in that deal as well...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
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Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: Avro ARROW....

Thu Jun 08, 2000 12:05 pm

To all those out there who want to see HOW the
Canadian Gov't PRESERVES aviation history, come to the
Aviation Museum in Ottawa.
Here'sw what you'll find: A 3 X 3 ft section of the Arrow
(the cockpit-nose section ONLY), THE first ever Dash7
because they don't have ENOUGH room inside to store it. ONE OF THE LAST ARGUS aircraft flown by the RCAF,
ROTTING outside because they don't have room to store
it inside. PLUS numerous other aircraft stored outside for
the SAME reason. I go by there very so often. IT will
make you sick to see the examples left out for mother
nature to do justice to!!
Posts: 871
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 1999 4:15 am

RE: Avro ARROW....

Thu Jun 08, 2000 1:25 pm

I was watching at work this evening, LOVE MY JOB, and I think it was done perfectly. It is too bad that Deif the theif had to go and mess something like that up. Mind you I also agree that he had some help in the matter!! I wonder what it would have been like to see it nowdays? I bet we would have been way ahead of Boeing!! Who knows mabye would have had to buy it out!!
It is also to bad that the C-102 Jetliner never made it into production!! Only really Howard Huges had seen it actual potential!! And i also find it a bit strange that it only flew weeks after the Comet!! Did you know that the Runway at Malton at the time was closed for some sort of repairs for about three weeks. The Jetliner was ready to go before the Comet but couldn't take off because of Suppoused "pot holes in the runway " I dunno I also smell a cover up!! Well it is no use on dwelling on the past!! What is done is done!!

Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
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Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Avro ARROW....

Thu Jun 08, 2000 6:45 pm

About this airplane, I've taped this series and after seeing it and beeing an outsider from Portugal but beeing a european my feeing is that the americans didn't like the fact that the canadians could do better than them, that's why politically ( and I want to enphasise this fact ) the americans pressed canadians to drop that plane, it was a pitty but Canada was really to close to America!!! After that NEVER the RCAF had a great airplane in their inventory - after the ARROW affair they bought ( please don't smile!!! ) the F-101 Voodoo, then the F-104, the F-5 and now the F-18, can you imagine that? And don't forget that the F-18 just arrived a few years ago!!!
That's why now we in Europe have the Airbus and we're kicking Boeing ass!!! Their monopoly is over now!
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
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Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 4:45 am

RE: Avro ARROW....

Fri Jun 09, 2000 7:16 am

Does the arrow have same/better performance characteristics the the F-18 (or CF-18 as it is called)? Also, it seems very big for a fighter/interceptor, no?

My favourite line from the movie: "This is a place of honest working men, no place for a conservative."



RE: Avro ARROW....

Fri Jun 09, 2000 9:51 am

Some one mentioned that there are no remaining parts left of the aircraft fell thats false becuase The Canadian warplane Heritage Museum in Hamilton Ontario ( My home airport) has 2 engins which they dicovered just to year ago in some barrels that where just rusting out side so the museum decided to go outside and crack them open and to there suprise there were 2 avro arrow engins inside of them. After the lancaster I think these are the most prized possesions of the museum.
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Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: Avro ARROW....

Fri Jun 09, 2000 10:18 am

In response to JAT:

Yes the Arrow would have flown much faster (Mach 2.5) as opposed to the CF-18 (Mach 1.8). However, the Arrow was strictly an interceptor, not a multi-role fighter like the CF-18 and they cannot really be compared. I think the CF-18 would have been obviously much more manuverable. Comparable aircraft in my opinion would be the Soviet era MiG-25 Foxbat - large, fast high-flying aircraft that are built to defend against bombers or cruise missiles.

However, the Arrow was truly miles and miles ahead of any developments at the time. And the Jetliner could have made Canada the present-day aerospace leader. Very sad.

Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Avro ARROW....

Fri Jun 09, 2000 10:33 am

Just a note, did you know that the su-32 is on the short list for an F-18 replacement...I heard this a while back at an aviation show, the CF18's are almost 20 years old and the CAF is looking at supplimenting and replacing the cf18's, among others including the F16 and the newer 18's is the SU32...simply because it's performance is equal to or better then it's us competition, and it is a hell of a lot cheaper, they could buy double or tripple the number of russian planes for the same money as a few F16's or mor 18's
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Avro ARROW....

Fri Jun 09, 2000 11:49 am

I saw this mini-series on CBC about two years ago when it was first released. One of the the advatages of living on the US-Canada border. Oh yeah there was a big coverup on the C.102 first flight. The brits wouldn't release the engines until the Comet flew.

I am actually amazed that the Canadian Government hasn't managed to kill DHC over the years. Between the two Avro Canada projects that they killed. The really interesting part about the arrow isn't the aircraft it is the engines. They where ordered by the French to power there Mirage fighters that where under development. When the canceled the engines the French where forced to develop the ATAR engines. Which is one of the most common aircraft engines.

I wouldn't get really excited over the RCAF or whatever it is called now getting new airplanes....You missed out of all the excitement when Canada backed out of the EH-101 helicopter, costing a lot of jobs and needless to say more money then I will make, and that is at the Dollar-Loony exchange rate.....Now they have to order Merlin helicopters(EH-101's) to replace their Labador rescue helicopters. At a much more expensive price, and no local content in their production.
Posts: 1164
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2000 11:34 am

RE: Avro ARROW....

Fri Jun 09, 2000 11:53 am


Not only did the ARROW get away, Avro's Jetliner did too. With a capacity of appx. 50 people, it would have sold like hotcakes to nearly every iarline in the world. Boeings 707 and the Comet from England were too big for a lot of airlines. I think the Canadian govt. had a lot of presasure to can both projects, as it would have taken a lot of business away from the much larger "allies". It's a shame that it took nearly 50 years for Canada to make a mark in the aviation field with the Dash 8 and RJ from Bombardier...even the RJ was originally a LearJet (USA) design...

* the "jetliner" was flying BEFORE the 707, and just after the comet.
Posts: 1496
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Avro ARROW....

Fri Jun 09, 2000 12:15 pm

The miniseries isn't perfectly on all the facts, but I still like it. There are some really good books on the arrow, particularly the one printed by Boston Mills Press. Superb photos, and excellent coverage of the program. The C.102 Jetliner is kind of an airplane that time forgot, but if you ever see a copy of the book about it by Jim Floyd (the designer) it is very good. Interestingly Avro managed to get about 60 orders from outside Canada (and this is without a fully developed aircraft, which was more common in those days), but the Canadian government ordered them to stop all work and only do the CF-100. They even tried to license produce it at Convair, and had set up plant layouts and everything before the USAF ordered Convair to only work on the bomber programmes... The rest is history, albeit forgotten history.

I really doubt the RCAF will get new planes anytime soon. The government won't spend the bucks. The air force needs new equipment in a lot of ways, and I think the choppers and Hercs are higher priority than fighter/bombers right now.

Personally my feeling on the PS.13 Iroquois engines for the Arrow are that that bit of a delay to the program of having development engines may have been just enough to stall production. The Iroquois was good, but expensive, and the Arrow would have met specs with the Pratts. At a minimal cost the Pratts could have been used to cut the cost of the program and still had a good aircraft. I personally can't believe that after spending that much money on the aircraft (ie-nearly all the development costs) that they didn't salvage the aircraft. If you want to cancel a program, it has to be done before the money was spent. They blew the money and then scrapped the whole thing. And then ended up spending the money all over again on CF-104's, CF-5's, and CF-101's. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

One other point. When the Panavia Toranado was built, one of the original participants in the program was the Canadian government. We could have had part of the R&D and constructions of our own fighters instead of the CF-18's if we had gone with the Tornadoes, but the government pulled out in the early stages. Another lack of foresight.

As for the choppers, I think the versions the Canadian government is buying now will have some local content, but not as much as the original EH-101 purchase would have. I just seem to remember reading something about Bristol Aerospace getting a contract from it, as well as some other contractors.

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