cityairline
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FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:55 am

Hey!
Is FRA-LAX always full in all classes on LH? It seems really hard to get seats in Y for the coming days. I think I read that it was one of LH's busiest route, so I just wanted this confirmed.

But why don't they expand with more flights?
Is LH out of available planes? Is LAX slot-restricted?
And they will use the A380 on the route once its delivered, right?

Thanks, bye  Smile
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dutchjet
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:19 am

LH does do well with its LAX-FRA route - and they have the route all to themselves as there is no other airline offering nonstop service (PA/DL tried years ago when there was a hub in FRA - it did not work out very well and service was dropped). The flight does operate with good loads on a year round basis.

The coming days (weeks) are quite busy.....the Easter/Passover/Spring Holiday period increases demand dramatically with lots of lesiure pax travelling (family visits, trips home, vacations, etc) - that could be why the LH flight is so heavily booked for the coming period.

Will LH operate the A380 on the LAX-FRA route.....a definite maybe!
 
FRA-Runway
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:22 am

Not correct, AI is also offering nonstop service FRA-LAX

Regards.
 
dutchjet
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting FRA-Runway" class=quote target=_blank>FRA-Runway (Reply 2):
Not correct, AI is also offering nonstop service FRA-LAX

Regards.

Woops!! Forgot about that.

Also, at one time, NZ flew LAX-FRA two times per week.
 
planespotting
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting CityAirline (Thread starter):
But why don't they expand with more flights?

ha! add more flights when you already have a near monopoly and all of your flights are pretty much filled to capacity as it is? That's crazy.

An extra 350 seats on this route per day could easily increase supply to the point where it is greater than demand, and then they would have to drop the price and even start to lose money on the route.

As it is right now, they can charge a high premium for this flight based on a supply which probably does not quite meet demand...that is the perfect situation for an airline to be in for a route like this.

Look at what happens when an airport is served by two airlines, and one of those airlines ends service. Say, each airline had 4 flights/day to a different hub (8 flights/day total). Airline X drops out, leaving the airport with only 4 flights/day from Airline Y. Most likely, Airline Y's aircraft were not going out completely full to begin with, and now they know that there will be an excess of passengers who used to use Airline X but now have to use Airline Y, as they are the only option. So Airline Y increases their fares 10-20%, and their aircraft are now going out full or nearly full, as they are the only option now (ignoring other market factors like a closer airport and driving). They have just increased their yields drastically, without doing anything at all to increase their costs.

The business of airlines is a tricky one, and not all times outwardly logical, but hey, that's life in the big city.

[Edited 2006-04-01 21:36:51]
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aaway
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:45 am

In short...yes! I attended an LAX airline meeting in February where a LH management rep indicated that LFs were approaching - well, lets say a very, very high double digit percentile on this route.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
boeingfever777
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
and they have the route all to themselves as there is no other airline offering nonstop service

I thinkt AI #137 flys DEL-FRA-LAX (1) daily.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 4):
add more flights when you already have a near monopoly and all of your flights are pretty much filled to capacity as it is? That's crazy.

I thought they only fly (1) daily from FRA and (1) daily from MUC? You make it sound as if they fly 2-3x daily.
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LAXintl
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:24 am

LH has done well in the LAX-FRA market going back to the 80s when it, and BA were the only consistent European daily operators.

I have not seen the 2005 reports, however in 2004 LAX-FRA operated at a 87.8% LF with summer peaks in the mid 90s, and the slowest month at an impressive 83%.

Besides the route basically channeling traffic between two STAR hubs, LH has done very well selling itself amongst many ethnic communities in Southern California with its many beyond connection opportunities.
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planespotting
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 6):

I thought they only fly (1) daily from FRA and (1) daily from MUC? You make it sound as if they fly 2-3x daily.

I was speaking in generalities. I was using a general circumstance that might happen to any airline to reason why LH shouldn't expand their flights. But, I also thought both of their daily flights went to FRA (i didn't realize they had a daily MUC flight in there), so that is another reason why that may sound like that.
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LAXintl
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:50 am

Lufthansa is operating 3 daily flights to LAX again this summer. 2 FRA(B744s) and 1 MUC(A343).
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ikramerica
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:52 am

LH will likely send the A380 to LAX once LAX is ready for it. You will likely see QF, VS, LH, AF, KE and SQ A380s at LAX by 2010.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
kaitak744
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:00 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
LH will likely send the A380 to LAX once LAX is ready for it. You will likely see QF, VS, LH, AF, KE and SQ A380s at LAX by 2010.

LAX will be ready late this year. The construction of one gate is already underway at TBIT. Another one will commence soon on the north side of TBIT, and one for T2.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 9):
Lufthansa is operating 3 daily flights to LAX again this summer. 2 FRA(B744s) and 1 MUC(A343).

So just to get it clear, LH has 1 744 from FRA and 1 A343 from MUC in the winter, and 2 744s from FRA and 1 A343 from MUC in the summer? Any chance of the MUC flight switching to A346?

Also, what are their frequencies to SFO?
 
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legacyins
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:00 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 11):
Also, what are their frequencies to SFO?

LH serves SFO year round with a daily 744 Franfurt service. Munich is served year rouns 4 times per week during the winter months with a 343 and daily during the summer with a 346.

UA also serves the SFO-FRA with a daily 744.
 
boeingfever777
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:14 pm

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 8):
(i didn't realize they had a daily MUC flight in there)

Yeah they have 1 daily from each city. Flights are as follows:

FRA-LAX LH #456 @12:35PST on 744
MUC-LAX LH #452 @14:20PST on 343
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AirCop
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:50 pm

It just amazes me that no US based airline offers non-stop service to Europe (except for London) from LAX.
 
columba
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 14):
It just amazes me that no US based airline offers non-stop service to Europe (except for London) from LAX.

I guess that has to do with the lack of longhaul equipment, the backbone for America�s longhaul airlines is the 767 and for some the A330 both does not have the range to fly that route nonstop.
Airlines that fly 747s and 772s mostley use them on their pacific routes.
Maybe once the 787 enters service with American carriers we will see point to point directions to more European cities, maybe LAX-BBI etc.....
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Qantas744er
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:09 pm

Hey, well i have been on the flight about 8 times from FRA to LAX and the other way around and it always is packed full in C and F. Many times we were overbooked flying in C and there was no space in F so we had to go to SFO.
and yes LH makes a lot of money on this flight.

Cheers Leo
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PanAm747
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:57 am

Quote:
It just amazes me that no US based airline offers non-stop service to Europe (except for London) from LAX.

KLM flies non-stop LAX-AMS.
AF flies non-stop LAX-CDG.
EI flies non-stop LAX-DUB.
SV flies non-stop LAX-SVO.

Whom did I miss?
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Indio66
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
Whom did I miss?

Swiss, Alitalia, Virgin . . . .
 
brink777
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
KLM flies non-stop LAX-AMS.
AF flies non-stop LAX-CDG.
EI flies non-stop LAX-DUB.
SV flies non-stop LAX-SVO.

Whom did I miss?

those are not us airlines
 
planespotting
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
SV flies non-stop LAX-SVO.

I think you mean SU (aeroflot).
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JoeCattoli
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 18):
Alitalia

No

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
SV flies non-stop LAX-SVO

Saudi Arabian LAX-moscow? and if you meant Aeroflot they don't have equipment to make it nonstop...

Ciao  wave 
Joe
 
UAL777UK
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Legacyins (Reply 12):
UA also serves the SFO-FRA with a daily 744.

I wonder why, UA doesn't fly LAX-FRA as well then if its going so well for LH. Is it just a case of being short of aircraft?
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting JoeCattoli (Reply 21):
if you meant Aeroflot they don't have equipment to make it nonstop...

Their 767's can just make it, I do think it's non-stop, could be wrong.

Well, it's not just LH, but BA too are doing wellout of California.
3X daily (non-stop) LHR-LAX during the summer
2X daily (non-stop) LHR-LAX during the Winter
and
2X daily (non-stop) LHR-SFO year round,
I believe SFO is a high premium load destination, while LAX is more economy and leisure.

Wrighbrothers
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Qantas744er
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 23):
I believe SFO is a high premium load destination, while LAX is more economy and leisure.

Correct! BA only uses 744`s with a High C configuration to SFO so 70 seats in C. But for their LAX flights they only send the 38 seats in C config, but F configurations remain the same.

Cheers Leo
Happiness is V1 in Lagos
 
mutu
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 22):
I wonder why, UA doesn't fly LAX-FRA as well then if its going so well for LH. Is it just a case of being short of aircraft?

Perhaps there is some gentlemans agreement between these *A partners or perhaps for UA to do so would focus peoples minds on the virtual monopoly between certain cities in USA/Canada and FRA where you really have little choice but to fly *A. THis does puzzle me, fares are so much cheaper ex FRA than ex LHR and yet more carriers offer more flights ex LHR, a case of more competiton leads to higher prices!!!

Seriously I supect there is enough demand for 2 x daily but a third would change the economics considerably so UA would actualy hurt LH or they would end up kicking cr*p out of each other like BA/VS...which they wouldnt because they are alliance partners
 
LAXintl
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 14):
It just amazes me that no US based airline offers non-stop service to Europe (except for London) from LAX.

Its not for not trying.

Used to be TWA offered service to Paris and Pan Am to Frankfurt.
Since then Delta for a while did run Frankfurt while both American and United tried Paris.

Besides strong competition from established foreign carriers into their hubs, in general West Coast-Europe yields tend to be weaker then many Eastern US destinations, result of the greater distance and less premium traffic.
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ua777222
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:08 am

I would say that both UA and LH's flights out of SFO both do well equally across all classes. I have flown 900 and 901 (UA's SFO-FRA-SFO) many times and every time it is overbooked. I think LH's SFO-FRA leaves 10-15 before or after UA's and that is always booked solid as well. I've only flown LH LAX-FRA-LAX once and it was also booked solid. All of my SFO/LAX-FRA-LAX/SFO flights were though out the entire calender year so seasons really had nothing to do with load factors.

As a matter of fact, just prior to 2005, 900 and 901 were both operated by a 777 in the winter season until about December when it would go back to a 747 but they have stopped this and it is now operated single by a 747.

Quoting Mutu (Reply 25):
Seriously I suspect there is enough demand for 2 x daily but a third would change the economics considerably so UA would actually hurt LH or they would end up kicking cr*p out of each other like BA/VS...which they wouldn't because they are alliance partners

Not only would it hurt their partners but how many 747's can UA pull out of their fleet to make this route? Note that you won't see many UA 747's laying around LAX during the day (unless doing a ferry or DEN route). I also think that there would just be too many open seats, even if the route was served with a 777.

LH and UA both do 2x from ORD to FRA (2x 777 for UA and 1x 747 LH and 333) I have flown UA FRA-ORD and that flight too was packed. Out of JFK LH does 3x a day to FRA as does SQ. I would also have to say that UA's current fleet options leave them with their hands tied behind their backs and that codeshare and/or connections are a must until the fleet can expand a bit. Almost all of their 747's are either SYD or Asia routed and the 777's are either domestic (not enough range/2 class) or being served on other European/Asian destinations. I would say it's a niche market that is already well served and if over populated will corrupt the current flow of traffic. Don't spoil the customer with too many choices.

Matt
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ikramerica
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 14):
It just amazes me that no US based airline offers non-stop service to Europe (except for London) from LAX.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 26):
Its not for not trying.

True. AA used to have an LAX-CDG flight, but couldn't keep it profitable. There were ads in media and billboards around LAX talking about it. Maybe 9/11 killed it, I'm not sure.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
kaitak744
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:40 am

Also, did SAS fly to LAX from Stockholm I think? When and why did they stop?

And wasn't Alitalia in talks about coming back to LAX in 2006 with a 777?
 
PanAm747
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:46 am

Quote:
I think you mean SU (aeroflot).



Quote:
Saudi Arabian LAX-moscow? and if you meant Aeroflot they don't have equipment to make it nonstop...

WHOOOOPS!! Sorry about that - but one has to admit, SVO and SV is a logical mistake - especially before the coffee has kicked into high gear.  coffee 
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AussieItaliano
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 29):
And wasn't Alitalia in talks about coming back to LAX in 2006 with a 777?

Yes, AZ used to fly LAX-MXP as well as SFO-MXP, but both routes were dropped after the 2001 terrorist attacks. They have announced that LAX is on their list of cities to reinitiate service to ASAP.

I also remember back in the early to mid 90's when AZ flew a M11 daily from LAX to MXP as well as another M11 4x/week from LAX to FCO during the summer months.

Now those were the days! If only we could get that back as well as the same sort of thing from SFO, I'd be a happy traveller. Just look at my signature line.  Wink
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ikramerica
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:23 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 29):
Also, did SAS fly to LAX from Stockholm I think? When and why did they stop?

And wasn't Alitalia in talks about coming back to LAX in 2006 with a 777?

and neither of them are us based carriers either, which was the question...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
flymunich
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:28 pm

Next winter (06/07) Lufthansa operate daily MUC-SFO with A346 and 5 weekly MUC-LAX with A343.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: FRA-LAX, Always Full On LH?

Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:41 pm

I believe it was LH that weren't happy with NZ on the LAX-FRA run because NZ were taking away LH's PAX. Both are in Star and NZ codeshare LAX-FRA and LH codeshare LAX-AKL with NZ.

Bring back NZ I say! I believe they did well out of FRA. I wonder if there is any chance of this? As it seems more capacity is required on LAX-FRA.