wjcandee
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DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:12 am

Interesting announcement today about DL service on ShuttleAmerica from LGA-ORD with 5 flights per day. Given that NYC-ORD is one of the (if not the) top o/d routes in American aviation, it makes sense that DL should want to be credible on the route if it intends to be credible in NY. OTOH, UA and AA already have very regular, convenient service, and WN (ISP-MDW), TZ (LGA-MDW) and FL (EWR-MDW) also have a high level of service on the route; the last thing it really needs is more seats.

In order to give a "business" feel to the service, DL will operate it from the Marine Air Terminal, which is its LGA Shuttle terminal.

My question: won't people be confused about the difference in boarding procedures between the two types of service? More importantly, if I take the ORD service, can I have the free coffee and magazines that I get to take at the MAT when I fly on the DCA Shuttle?
 
luv2fly
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:18 am

You might want to see this thread on the very subject.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/2656243/6/#ID2656243
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
wjcandee
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:22 am

Well, the start of the service was officially announced today, so it's "newsworthy". When I saw the press release, I did check for other threads before starting this one, but didn't find the one you cited. If it's already been discussed, so be it. BTW, was my question answered in that thread? Hmmmm...
 
Jaws707
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:24 am

Is the free coffee and magazines for everyone at the Marine One Terminal or only for business and first class passnegers? Also does anyone know if the EMB-170 assigned to the route is a brand new one, or is it just reassigned from another route? I'll be flying this route in about 2 weeks, so I just thought it would be cool to be on a brand new aircraft.
 
panamair
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Thread starter):
My question: won't people be confused about the difference in boarding procedures between the two types of service? More importantly, if I take the ORD service, can I have the free coffee and magazines that I get to take at the MAT when I fly on the DCA Shuttle?

AFAIK, all services available to the Shuttle passengers will be available to the ORD pax. as well; there won't be a guard by the magazines checking to see if you have a BOS or DCA boarding pass before allowing you to pick up the magazines...The Delta/AMEX PowerStop lounge with free WIFI as well as PCs will also be available to all BOS/DCA/ORD passengers.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:09 am

I still feel like DL is going to have a hard time competing with UA's service on the route. Will DL be serving meals in F? UA does. UA has a significant advantage in terms of premium seats in the market, and AA's strength ex-NYC will certainly them-- they have more premium seats and frequencies too. I just don't see how DL is going to get UA and AA's yields on this route.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
worldtraveler
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:38 am

People said that about the JFK transcons but DL has a pretty decent presence there and seems to be attracting similar numbers of passengers as AA or UA.....

there are no markets where a carrier is exempt from competition no matter how big the other competitor is. To think that markets can be kept to oneself is childish and doesn't recognize the power of the free enterprise system. Customers can always be persuaded to change their preferences in a free market.

Because the topic has been discussed, I won't further discuss but there is no doubt that DL can make do in the LGA-ORD market just as AA managed to squeeze itself into ATL-LGA.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:50 am

"I still feel like DL is going to have a hard time competing with UA's service on the route. Will DL be serving meals in F? UA does. UA has a significant advantage in terms of premium seats in the market, and AA's strength ex-NYC will certainly them-- they have more premium seats and frequencies too. I just don't see how DL is going to get UA and AA's yields on this route."

Actually, DL should do fine. You are forgetting that United has a very, very small presence in NYC.

DL, on the other hand, has a hub at JFK and a huge presence at LGA. Couple that with a large frequent flyer base, and I think DLs worries are more with AA than UA.


PJ
 
quickmover
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:10 am

Any pictures out there of the Marine Terminal? Do they load the jets with jet bridges or stairs?

Never been there.

Thanks.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:15 am

There are 6 gates . . . all with jetbrides. It's quite a nice facility.

PJ
 
quickmover
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:20 am

Seems like I read somewhere that Eastern used to board their shuttle 727s from the back, via stairs.

confirm?
 
FFlyer
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:28 am

The Marine Air Terminal is really a very, very nice facility. Small, exclusive, own parking a few steps from the terminal. No hassle, very businesslike. I have taken numerous DL shuttle flights from there, and it's a completely different world compared to anything in LGA or JFK.

There must have been thousands of Skymiles (business) members flying other airlines to ORD from NYC, but this will bring many of them back to DL on that route.
 
Jaws707
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:33 am

I really think that DL will be successful on this route. Basically they are trying to fill 350 seats each way every day EMB-170 at 70 seats times 5 flights shouldnt be a problem. Also the EMB-170 is more efficent then the MD-80's AA flies or the mix of A320, B733 UA flies.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 7):
Actually, DL should do fine. You are forgetting that United has a very, very small presence in NYC.

DL, on the other hand, has a hub at JFK and a huge presence at LGA. Couple that with a large frequent flyer base, and I think DLs worries are more with AA than UA.

I tend to agree about passengers ex-NYC, but DL will hardly get any ORD-originating traffic. I just don't think that is sustainable. When AA and UA have 3 times as many frequencies, far more premium seats and, in the case of UA, better service, at least where it counts, I just don't see how DL can do this without a big yield disadvantage. They'll fill the planes, but I don't think it will be profitable.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
wjcandee
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
big yield disadvantage

Uhhhh.....

"Yield disadvantage." Hmmmmm....

Coupla thoughts: (1) I believe that a significant percentage of the butts in seats on those hourly flights to ORD from LGA on UA and AA are CONX traffic, so some of the "yield" on the LGA-ORD leg on those airlines is gonna be diluted as the revenue is applied to multiple legs. DL, on the other hand, can take a max of 350 pax a day, significant portion of which will likely be biz travelers who are already DL FFs.

(2) Cost advantage. How much do those ShuttleAmerica pilots cost again? Thought so.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 14):
(2) Cost advantage. How much do those ShuttleAmerica pilots cost again? Thought so.

Pilot pay really isn't that big of a driver. The CASM of a E170 is still higher than an A320/MD80.

The upside for DL is that they have far fewer seats to fill, so they shouldn't need to do as much discounting to fill the seats. If DL can capture enough of the NYC originating traffic this route should do ok. It may take a while for NYC customers to realize that DL is a viable non-stop option. When most people think LGA-ORD...they think AA or UA.
 
MajorNelson
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:02 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 7):
Actually, DL should do fine. You are forgetting that United has a very, very small presence in NYC.

Ummmm, no. A "very, very small presence in NYC would be, say, Icelandair or Frontier or Uzbekistan Airways.

UA flies numerous transcons from NYC with numerous widebodies, flies to London, Tokyo, hourly to ORD, basically has a monopoly on DEN and heavy frequencies to IAD. And they fly from all 4 NYC area airports. This is not a "very, very smal presence" in NYC. How bliind are you ?
I turn Tops into Bottoms.
 
commavia
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting MajorNelson (Reply 16):
Ummmm, no. A "very, very small presence in NYC would be, say, Icelandair or Frontier or Uzbekistan Airways.

Okay, so maybe UA's market radar signature is bigger than Frontier or Uzbekistan Airways, but it is 'nothing' compared with AA, CO or DL. CO is more than four times larger than UA in the New York metro area, AA is nearly four times larger than UA in the New York metro area, and DL is more than double the size of UA in the New York metro area.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Thread starter):
My question: won't people be confused about the difference in boarding procedures between the two types of service? More importantly, if I take the ORD service, can I have the free coffee and magazines that I get to take at the MAT when I fly on the DCA Shuttle?

It's a completely different product. Delta Connection vs. Delta Shuttle. The only reason it's being flown from the Marine Air Terminal is so the business passengers can get to Manhattan more quickly than anywhere else. I'd rather fly a 170 than an MD-88 anyday anyway, LGA-DCA or LGA-ORD.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 14):
I believe that a significant percentage of the butts in seats on those hourly flights to ORD from LGA on UA and AA are CONX traffic, so some of the "yield" on the LGA-ORD leg on those airlines is gonna be diluted as the revenue is applied to multiple legs.

Let's have a look at some numbers... I trust you'll indulge me in some rounding. UA has 15 daily flights to JFK and 9 daily to EWR. Let's say 140 seats/plane. That's 3360 seats. AA has 10 dailies to LGA and 4 to EWR, all on S80s. 1820 seats right there. CO has 12 flights to EWR, all on 735s. That's 1368 seats. So we're looking at about 6500-6600 seats to NYC per day from both Chicago airports. O&D actually exceeds available seats by about 1500 people per day. UA and AA ARE NOT selling cheap tickets from MSP to NYC, at least not connecting over ORD. I would argue that in this environment, there is not a whole lot of low-yield connecting traffic.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 14):
DL, on the other hand, can take a max of 350 pax a day, significant portion of which will likely be biz travelers who are already DL FFs.

The problem is that anyone who is flying NYC-ORD on a regular basis now is doing it on AA or UA. DL, as the new entrant, will have to wrest those travellers from AA and UA. There's only one way to do that: sales.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
worldtraveler
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:51 am

the reason DL is adding LGA-ORD is the same reason AA added ATL-LGA: because corporate contracts require that the carrier that will win the contract for business travel have a fully competitive schedule. DL has got a locked in group of passengers by virtue of business contracts.... and they are competing out of NYC w/ AA and CO, all three of which now serve the top 10 markets from NYC (if EWR is included).

and actually, most of UA's transcon service is on 757s. AA is pretty much the primary NYC widebody transcon operator at present.
 
drewwright
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:42 am

I worked the first LGA-DFW flight today while one of my friends worked the first LGA-ORD flight.... It could be a good product if DL put meals on the flights (like we were told they were going to do at first) But in typical DL fashion they changed thier minds and the last moment. The plane is still amazing and in everyway better than the MD-80 or A320 but DL really could have grabbed a big bite of this market by adding a meal service as planned. We had a memo last month that said meals in both classes and free drinks just like the Bos-Wash Shuttle. Oh well... Still a superior product and a blast to fly in!

DRW
 
wjcandee
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting Drewwright (Reply 21):
could have grabbed a big bite of this market by adding a meal service as planned

This is an interesting idea. DL is certainly demanding fares that could support a nice little meal. ATA does this run to MDW for $214 with no food, and lots of butts in seats (look at Wednesday seat maps, for example). DL is asking for $319, about $50 less than UA/AA, but a solid hunk of revenue on a 2-hour flight.

Loads look frighteningly-low this week, but AA's LGA-ATL service started out about the same way and now appears to do pretty well.
 
MajorNelson
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:26 pm

Both classes? Do the Shuttle America E170s have a F cabin?
I turn Tops into Bottoms.
 
panamair
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:26 pm

Quoting Drewwright (Reply 21):
It could be a good product if DL put meals on the flights (like we were told they were going to do at first)

Yes, meals would certainly would be nice but unfortunately, they are definitely a "nice-to-have". Availability of food on a flight has never been a decision driver for flyers, ranking certainly below space/enhanced legroom (and we already know how that has worked out for TW and AA).

Quoting MajorNelson (Reply 23):
Both classes? Do the Shuttle America E170s have a F cabin?

Yes, 6 F seats in a 1-2 configuration
 
FoxBravo
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
UA and AA ARE NOT selling cheap tickets from MSP to NYC, at least not connecting over ORD.

Wanna bet? I fly from NYC to MSP at least a couple times a year, and AA via ORD is almost always one of the cheapest options listed on Expedia, etc. I have always opted for the convenience of the NW/CO nonstops instead, since the difference in fare usually isn't that great (certainly not enough to justify the hassle of O'Hare), but AA obviously does compete for the low-yield connecting traffic, and I'm sure UA does too.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 25):

Wanna bet? I fly from NYC to MSP at least a couple times a year, and AA via ORD is almost always one of the cheapest options listed on Expedia, etc.

If you buy far enough in advance, of course you can get a cheap ticket, but look at fares which do not require 21-day advance purchase... Today, to depart MSP on the 18th and return on the 22nd, the fares are as follows:

SY: $223
NW: $244
YX: $256
CO: $303
AA: $421
UA: $460

That's what I am talking about, not the cheap fares that everyone has 2 months out.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
FoxBravo
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:54 am

I'm actually thinking more of peak holiday travel times, when NW and CO never lower their nonstop fares much below $350, even well in advance, and the nonstops end up selling out. For those dates, you can often find AA and others with connections priced in the $250 range.

You also need to look at flight times. Sometimes the top of the screen on Expedia will show an amazing fare for a nonstop on NW, but then you find that the only available flight for that fare leaves at 6 am, but all other departures are $200 more.

And besides, even on other dates, like the ones you checked, I'm sure there were still people who searched 2 months ago, saw AA priced $100 less than NW, and booked accordingly.

Anyway, to get back to the topic at hand, my only point was that AA and UA don't just carry O&D pax--there will always be a certain percentage of connecting traffic on their NYC-ORD flights due to all the connections offered through ORD. Not just to MSP, but every other city west of ORD. DL, on the other hand, will likely not have as many (if at all), because they won't be selling connections at either end.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
Jaws707
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:55 am

In response to the earlier posts saying how Delta was going to offer meal/drink service, but then decided against it, does either UA or AA offer meal service on this route?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 28):
In response to the earlier posts saying how Delta was going to offer meal/drink service, but then decided against it, does either UA or AA offer meal service on this route?

UA offers meals in F, and FWIW, CO offers food ex-EWR.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
AA 777
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
AA has 10 dailies to LGA and 4 to EWR, all on S80s. 1820 seats right there

AA actually has 19 daily LGA-ORD and 7 daily EWR-ORD. Also, dont forget the two JFK-ORD flights on Eagle.

The 19 daily to LGA add up to 2584...The 7 to EWR add up to 952 and the two JFK are 86 (Though the JFK are 44 Seat E140's they appear to be restricted to 43). The total then is 3622.

If you consider HPN part of the NY area thats another 316 seats to Chicago on AA.

-Matt
CRJ-700 FO
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL New E-170 LGA-ORD From Marine At

Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting AA 777 (Reply 30):
AA actually has 19 daily LGA-ORD and 7 daily EWR-ORD. Also, dont forget the two JFK-ORD flights on Eagle.

The 19 daily to LGA add up to 2584...The 7 to EWR add up to 952 and the two JFK are 86 (Though the JFK are 44 Seat E140's they appear to be restricted to 43). The total then is 3622.

Dammit... I forgot that aa.com doesn't list the flights all day if you ask for status.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more

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