klwright69
Posts: 2433
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Update On B6 At EWR?

Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:28 am

I am curious if anyone has any additional information on how B6 is doing at EWR. The reason I ask is that I just perused CO's schedule from EWR to FLL and MCO. The depth of CO service on these routes is astounding. They have an hourly shuttle type of service from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m. thereabouts to both destinations. CO is certainly utilizing the 757-300 here (especially to MCO).

I just get the impression that CO is throwing everything at them at their disposal. If B6 attempts to add more at EWR (like transcontinental), I could only imagine how CO would respond then!

I don't doubt that B6 is running full flights in the these markets, but it seems CO is really tightening the screws (a war of attrition).

In these situations, does the legacy carrier's management have any means of monitoring the LCC carrier's performance on competing routes, and make adjustments accordingly??
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2621
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:52 am

Well, I haven't seen it in person, but I read somewhere (it was either here or on flyertalk.com) that CO stationed their CSRs at the B6 gates in Terminal A with counters to keep track of how many people were boarding some of the B6 flights. There's no doubt that CO isn't asleep at the wheel here, but otherwise, I really don't know what's going on...
 
codc10
Posts: 1800
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:31 pm

javascript:;

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 1):
Well, I haven't seen it in person, but I read somewhere (it was either here or on flyertalk.com) that CO stationed their CSRs at the B6 gates in Terminal A with counters to keep track of how many people were boarding some of the B6 flights. There's no doubt that CO isn't asleep at the wheel here, but otherwise, I really don't know what's going on...

This practice has been going on for a while at CO, they have been known to count DL, TZ, UA, and AA pax in the past. Now, with B6 flights on CO territory (A-2), it is not difficult and much more efficient for CO to engage in this very legal form of corporate espionage.
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2621
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 2):
very legal form of corporate espionage.

I had wondered about the legality of such a move. While I can't think of any actual law per se that they would be breaking, it seems like kind of a tacky practice to me.

[Edited 2006-04-04 05:51:03]
 
ludavid777
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 2:59 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:08 pm

JetBlue has discontinued EWR-TPA as a result of the stiff CO competition. The others will probably fall one by one. CO offers meals in coach and free entertainment on all EWR - FLORIDA markets to compete with B6.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:41 pm

Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 4):
CO offers meals in coach and free entertainment on all EWR - FLORIDA markets to compete with B6.

Meals are not on all flights. Only meal time flights and only mainline operated flights.
a.
 
nkops
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:30 pm

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 3):
it seems like kind of a tacky practice to me

It is .... but don't kid yourself into thinking that CO is the only one that does it, this has been going on for years by a bunch of airlines. I remember US doing it in PHL a couple times.
:evil:
 
ARGinLON
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:26 pm

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 3):
had wondered about the legality of such a move. While I can't think of any actual law per se that they would be breaking, it seems like kind of a tacky practice to me

Do you remember the movie “Basic instincts”? Sharon Stone said “What are you going to do? Charge me with smoking”
What can B6 do about it? Take CO to court for “Counting passengers”?

CO won’t give up a single inch to B6 while its alive and kicking
 
InTheSky74
Posts: 427
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:25 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:06 pm

Don't worry.... every flight I've been on out of EWR to Florida on B6 has been full....

They have their mid-week lulls I'm sure....

Yes, they did cut back EWR-TPA because it wasn't doing well for them, but I've been told the others are doing fine...

They did reduce some of the frequencies for the summer (as they do in JFK as well).

Rob
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2888
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 3):
I had wondered about the legality of such a move. While I can't think of any actual law per se that they would be breaking, it seems like kind of a tacky practice to me.

With JetBlue being a public company, isn't passenger load information available anyway?

Mike
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2621
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 9):
isn't passenger load information available anyway?

Most definitely not. That type of information is available only to the employees of their respective airlines, and it's not the kind of information that they go broadcasting to everyone. It's considered to be highly proprietary.
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2888
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 10):
Most definitely not. That type of information is available only to the employees of their respective airlines, and it's not the kind of information that they go broadcasting to everyone. It's considered to be highly proprietary.

I could have sworn load factors are available to share holders of a public company, guess I was wrong. Do they just publish general load factors not route specific loads?

Mike
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2621
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 11):
Do they just publish general load factors not route specific loads?

Beyond the info that you unofficially get here on a.net from airline employees, the only performance data that airlines ever publish are their systemwide load factors at the end of the month. For example, CO just reported that their systemwide load factor for March 2006 was 81.4%, or something in that range. That's about all you're going to get officially.
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2888
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:26 am

Damn, I guess I'll just have to contact Martha for that info  Wink

Mike
 
SWA TPA
Posts: 1454
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 6:10 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:48 am

Metrojet used to stand around our WN gates in TPA and count our pax boarding our flights to BWI. After awhile they used to just walk up and ask us how many we had on board. Typically we would tell a small fib and inflate the numbers a tad when the the load was low. Metrojet would write it down, thank us and walk off.  Wink

JBU/SWA TPA
I believe I can fly.....
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2888
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting TPA" class=quote target=_blank>SWA TPA (Reply 14):
Metrojet used to stand around our WN gates in TPA and count our pax boarding our flights to BWI. After awhile they used to just walk up and ask us how many we had on board. Typically we would tell a small fib and inflate the numbers a tad when the the load was low. Metrojet would write it down, thank us and walk off.

Hey, give them credit for taking the easy way out  Wink The agent probably spent the next couple of hours slacking off telling his/her boss later on that it was a lot of work counting all of those WN pax.

So, how are the loads on Jetblue doing out of EWR? To this day I haven't booked anyone on a EWR to XXX flight on B6 but we don't do a lot of Florida flights, mainly just transcon.

Mike
 
klwright69
Posts: 2433
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 8):
Don't worry.... every flight I've been on out of EWR to Florida on B6 has been full....

If you read my original post, I stated I don't doubt B6 is running full flights out of EWR. However full loads do not profitable flights make. This fact has been stated probably a million times before in this forum.

For example, CO used to have a large operation in Australia and New Zealand. This flights ran packed all the time. However the yield was so poor they discontinued most of those operations. Here is another example. When CO had a hub in DEN, Poor loads were not the problem. Profitability was the problem.
 
mia2dca
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:08 pm

JetBlue, like all carriers operating to/from/within the U.S., reports traffic and capacity data on a route by route basis to the DOT on a monthly basis. This data is available to the public. JetBlue's EWR routes have posted the following load factors so far:

MONTH O D Load Factor
Oct-05 EWR FLL 66%
Nov-05 EWR FLL 74%
Dec-05 EWR FLL 83%
Oct-05 EWR MCO 79%
Nov-05 EWR MCO 82%
Dec-05 EWR MCO 83%
Oct-05 EWR PBI 74%
Nov-05 EWR PBI 81%
Dec-05 EWR PBI 85%
Oct-05 EWR RSW 68%
Nov-05 EWR RSW 85%
Dec-05 EWR RSW 84%
Nov-05 EWR SJU 81%
Dec-05 EWR SJU 73%
Oct-05 EWR TPA 74%
Nov-05 EWR TPA 85%
Dec-05 EWR TPA 82%
 
B797
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:03 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:13 pm

Flying EWR-MCO next week. Hope the loads are low. With a 1 YR old the less the better!!
 
iowaman
Posts: 3874
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting Mia2dca (Reply 17):
JetBlue, like all carriers operating to/from/within the U.S., reports traffic and capacity data on a route by route basis to the DOT on a monthly basis. This data is available to the public. JetBlue's EWR routes have posted the following load factors so far:

Can you give me a link to where that info is at? It would be much appreciated.
 
letsgetwet
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:33 pm

Quoting Mia2dca (Reply 17):

If those #'s are real, I can tell you that CO's are higher and on larger aircraft. I doubt they are making much of a profit (if any) but the name of the game is "I can bleed less and longer than you".
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:14 pm

http://www.bts.gov/

you can get all that info here....
 
iowaman
Posts: 3874
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:25 pm

Quoting Petazulu (Reply 21):
http://www.bts.gov/

you can get all that info here....

What a pain in the a** to find those statistics. I still haven't found it.
 
iowaman
Posts: 3874
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:54 pm

Anyone have a direct link?
 
mia2dca
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:11 pm

Iowaman --

Here's the direct link to the DOT's aviation data:

http://transtats.bts.gov/Databases.a...1&Mode_Desc=Aviation&Subject_ID2=0

The load factor data I posted came from the Form 41 Traffic data set (better known as the T100).
 
mia2dca
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:25 pm

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 20):
If those #'s are real, I can tell you that CO's are higher and on larger aircraft. I doubt they are making much of a profit (if any) but the name of the game is "I can bleed less and longer than you".

Here are the numbers for CO in the B6 markets:

MONTH Car O D Load Factor
Oct-05 CO EWR FLL 66%
Nov-05 CO EWR FLL 74%
Dec-05 CO EWR FLL 76%
Oct-05 CO EWR MCO 84%
Nov-05 CO EWR MCO 82%
Dec-05 CO EWR MCO 77%
Oct-05 CO EWR PBI 74%
Nov-05 CO EWR PBI 79%
Dec-05 CO EWR PBI 74%
Oct-05 CO EWR RSW 78%
Nov-05 CO EWR RSW 80%
Dec-05 CO EWR RSW 73%
Oct-05 CO EWR SJU 87%
Nov-05 CO EWR SJU 93%
Dec-05 CO EWR SJU 84%
Oct-05 CO EWR TPA 83%
Nov-05 CO EWR TPA 80%
Dec-05 CO EWR TPA 79%
 
nkops
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:31 pm

Quoting SWA TPA (Reply 14):
After awhile they used to just walk up and ask us how many we had on board.

Thats funny.. years ago when NK flew into PHL, US use to pax count on the FLL and MCO flights. After a while, the NK supv would just go up to them and tell them how many just to send them away
:evil:
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 4):
JetBlue has discontinued EWR-TPA as a result of the stiff CO competition

Werent the blue juice drinkers saying it was because they needed the equipment elsewhere, and that EWR-TPA was going seasonal...

What drama those blue juicers create..  wink 

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 8):
every flight I've been on out of EWR to Florida on B6 has been full

Correction... Every remaining flight..  wink 

Quoting Mia2dca (Reply 17):
Nov-05 EWR SJU 81%
Dec-05 EWR SJU 73%

8% drop in what is normally one of the highest months of the year?  sarcastic 
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2888
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting Mia2dca (Reply 17):
JetBlue, like all carriers operating to/from/within the U.S., reports traffic and capacity data on a route by route basis to the DOT on a monthly basis. This data is available to the public. JetBlue's EWR routes have posted the following load factors so far

I knew I saw the information posted somewhere and that it is available to the public. Thanks for confirming that.

Mike
 
iowaman
Posts: 3874
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Mia2dca (Reply 24):
Here's the direct link to the DOT's aviation data:

http://transtats.bts.gov/Databases.a...1&Mode_Desc=Aviation&Subject_ID2=0

The load factor data I posted came from the Form 41 Traffic data set (better known as the T100).

Thanks! But now of course my computer says it can't read .csv files.  Sad
 
User avatar
airzim
Posts: 1226
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:06 am

.csv can be converted to Excel. Try and save the file to Excel. It should work
 
iowaman
Posts: 3874
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Airzim (Reply 30):
.csv can be converted to Excel. Try and save the file to Excel. It should work

Yep, thanks!

Quoting Mia2dca (Reply 25):
Here are the numbers for CO in the B6 markets:

MONTH Car O D Load Factor
Oct-05 CO EWR FLL 66%
Nov-05 CO EWR FLL 74%
Dec-05 CO EWR FLL 76%
Oct-05 CO EWR MCO 84%
Nov-05 CO EWR MCO 82%
Dec-05 CO EWR MCO 77%
Oct-05 CO EWR PBI 74%
Nov-05 CO EWR PBI 79%
Dec-05 CO EWR PBI 74%
Oct-05 CO EWR RSW 78%
Nov-05 CO EWR RSW 80%
Dec-05 CO EWR RSW 73%
Oct-05 CO EWR SJU 87%
Nov-05 CO EWR SJU 93%
Dec-05 CO EWR SJU 84%
Oct-05 CO EWR TPA 83%
Nov-05 CO EWR TPA 80%
Dec-05 CO EWR TPA 79%

Now how did you get those that detailed? I'm able to get passengers out of each state etc. but not like that.
 
mia2dca
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:51 am

Iowaman --

The T100 Domestic Segment database has the market by market detail I used to get those numbers. I just pulled data for the state of New Jersey for each month. The data you get has passenger and seat figures by route by carrier so all you have to do is sum around those variables and divide total pax by total seats to get the load factor for the route. The only tricky thing is that the data is directional, so if you want an overall route load factor, you need to combine the two directions into a single set of figures (e.g. combine the records for EWR-MCO and MCO-EWR).
 
letsgetwet
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting Mia2dca (Reply 32):

So you don't have load factors for specific flights.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4488
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:30 pm

Quoting Mia2dca (Reply 32):
The T100 Domestic Segment database has the market by market detail I used to get those numbers.

Thanks for adding numbers to the discussion.

The T100 seems a bit friendlier since the BTS updated its website. It used to be fairly nasty about field selection and very slow.
 
richierich
Posts: 3306
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 27):
8% drop in what is normally one of the highest months of the year?

According to the numbers, CO took a 9% drop during the same period, although their LFs are higher than JetBlue's. Must be something about the NYC-SJU market during December that we don't know about.
None shall pass!!!!
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 35):
According to the numbers, CO took a 9% drop during the same period, although their LFs are higher than JetBlue's. Must be something about the NYC-SJU market during December that we don't know about.

Low Yields... Got to love 'em...  sarcastic 
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
iowaman
Posts: 3874
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:10 am

I'd be interested in what the loads were from LAS-PHX. Never heard of an empty seat on that.
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:05 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 37):
I'd be interested in what the loads were from LAS-PHX. Never heard of an empty seat on that

B6 does not fly that route...
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
iowaman
Posts: 3874
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 38):
B6 does not fly that route...

I know, I was refering to the DOT statistics.
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:07 pm

Quoting Mia2dca (Reply 17):
JetBlue, like all carriers operating to/from/within the U.S., reports traffic and capacity data on a route by route basis to the DOT on a monthly basis. This data is available to the public. JetBlue's EWR routes have posted the following load factors so far

Michael Boyd says that the DOT information is largely innacurate. He says it is based on things like surveys and GDS data, and so has major holes. I don't know enough to know whether this is true enough.

He must be at least partly correct, since airlines don't seem to talk much about route-by-route load factors. At least load factor is a pretty clear cut figure. A seat is either occupied or it is not.

Route by route RASM, CASM and yield figures seem to be very closely guarded secrets. My guess is that the figures for RASM and CASM per route may be calculated differently by different airlines, and so the numbers might not even be comparable if we did know them.
 
richierich
Posts: 3306
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 37):
I'd be interested in what the loads were from LAS-PHX. Never heard of an empty seat on that.

Considering its a market saturated with a lot of America West and Southwest flights, I'm sure the loads are OK at best.
None shall pass!!!!
 
iowaman
Posts: 3874
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Update On B6 At EWR?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 41):
Considering its a market saturated with a lot of America West and Southwest flights, I'm sure the loads are OK at best.

I'm sure the loads are great at worst.

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