TG992
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Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:15 am

For some months Air New Zealand Limited has been in consultation with unions and employees to review a proposal regarding the future of the Tasman and Pacific Island flying. These markets continue to under perform and the Company is unable to absorb these ongoing losses. As part of this, it was proposed that the Freedom Air and Air New Zealand branded services will be conducted by Freedom Air Limited.

The decision is that Air New Zealand Limited will gradually withdraw from flying a number of the Pacific Island and Tasman routes. Over that period we will be releasing our A320 aircraft.
Freedom Air Limited will begin operating a larger A320 fleet covering Freedom Air and Air New Zealand branded services, including Pacific Island and Tasman operations.

The removal of the first four A320 aircraft is timed to occur between 26 April 2006 and 8 June 2006.

There will be no compulsory cabin crew redundancies as a consequence of this decision and any lower numbers required by Air New Zealand will be achieved through attrition.

--

I bolded some text to clarify that AIR NZ FLIGHTS WILL CONTINUE to all destinations - but crew will be Freedom Air employees and operate both NZ and SJ "branded" flights.
-
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:24 am

Going to be some headscratching by customers with the occasional freedom a/c operating NZ or vice versa, or the inevitable stuff up over the PA "Welcome aboard this Freedoooo I mean Air New Zealand flight to..." lol
but on the whole I think it will work.
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mariner
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:25 am

Okay, I am totally confused. Already.

If Air New Zealand:

Quoting TG992 (Thread starter):
will gradually withdraw from flying a number of the Pacific Island and Tasman routes.

- that would usually mean, in English, that Air New Zealand has "withdrawn" from those routes, they have ceased to fly them.

But - apparently - in this case, it doesn't mean that. It seems to mean that some Air New Zealand "branded services" will be flown by someone else.

Quoting TG992 (Thread starter):
Freedom Air Limited will begin operating a larger A320 fleet covering Freedom Air and Air New Zealand branded services

I miss the days when an airline was an airline and that was it - you knew what you were getting.

mariner

[Edited 2006-04-05 03:27:03]
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:42 am

Basically what it means is that all A320 operations for NZ will be operated by Freedom Air crews but operated as NZ flights. Short Haul destinations operated by Long haul aircraft will continue to be operated by NZ long haul crews.
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 3):
Basically what it means is that all A320 operations for NZ will be operated by Freedom Air crews but operated as NZ flights.

Yes, I do understand what they are going to do.

But if Freedom Air is good enough to fly as Air New Zealand - what is the point of Air New Zealand?

Or - when does it stop? Today trans-Tasman, but tomorrow - nearer Asia, perhaps?

And then - ?

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TG992
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:44 am

I think those of us under 40 have to say that, judging by the deterioration in conditions over the last 10 years, it's going to be virtually impossible to have a long-term career in this industry anymore. Sad, but true.
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:54 am

Excellent move by Air NZ. Should've been done a long time ago. Though this was inevitable with the transfer of A320s to Freedom announced last year (or was that more recently and only in reference to a few airframes?).

SJ is simply NZ's vehicle for driving down costs. Just like QF's use of JQ.

And if claims are true that SJ is profitable on the Tasman, then this should fix that little problem for Air NZ and render any merger of trans-tasman ops with QF completely redundant.
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:58 am

Not necessarily - even though the cheaper SJ crew will be operating, the NZ product will still be offered (small meal, complimentary alcohol, airpoints, jetways, a myriad of other things) - all with increased costs.
-
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:59 am

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 6):
SJ is simply NZ's vehicle for driving down costs.

Why not drive down costs within the mainline?

Then all of mainline benefits.

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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
Why not drive down costs within the mainline?

I'm guessing it has to do with the unions. In a sense, perhaps this is what they're doing. By presenting a viable, cheaper alternative to mainline, NZ now has the ability to simply say "well hey, you guys can take a hike becasue we've got this option over here and it's profitable". Just gives NZ management greater bargaining power I suspect.
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:15 pm

So, if QF and NZ Tasman code-sharing also happens, QF passengers might find themselves on a Freedom flight, and NZ passengers on a JQ flight?
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 9):
NZ now has the ability to simply say "well hey, you guys can take a hike becasue we've got this option over here and it's profitable".

You may be right.

But, having been back in NZ a year (after forty years away) I am shocked by the present passivity of the unions.

I am not saying it is a bad thing, just that it wouldn't - would not - have happened when I was here in the sixties.

Air NZ management appears to be getting pretty much whatever it wants, with only token resistance by the unions and the mildest of noises from the government.

So - the move to Freedom Air seems to me to be playing at being a big airline.

As in "Qantas has a loco - look, we've got one too!"

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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting TG992 (Thread starter):
The removal of the first four A320 aircraft is timed to occur between 26 April 2006 and 8 June 2006.

Does this mean NZ will have no A320's in their fleet when this exercise is finished?
They will be owned/leased by SJ?

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 6):
And if claims are true that SJ is profitable on the Tasman, then this should fix that little problem for Air NZ and render any merger of trans-tasman ops with QF completely redundant.

Here we go again!
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:29 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
But if Freedom Air is good enough to fly as Air New Zealand - what is the point of Air New Zealand?

You could say that about Qantas, It's all about costs seems Air NZ is concentrating on its profit making long haul routes. Same with QF hocking off its "lesiure destinations" to JQ and this is what NZ seems to be doing with SJ if i make sense Smile

Quoting Antskip (Reply 10):
So, if QF and NZ Tasman code-sharing also happens, QF passengers might find themselves on a Freedom flight, and NZ passengers on a JQ flight?

That would just be bloody confusing and if QF and NZ keep some of their own metal on any of the profitable routes that would be even more confusing. The hing that gets me is they all have different seats, IFE meal options etc.....
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TG992
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:35 pm

I really thought I'd been clear enough in the original post but obviously not.

Freedom Air will operate the A320s under their AOC, but the yellow Freedom planes will still operate SJ routes offering SJ product (ie SYD-HLZ with f&b for sale). The Air New Zealand planes will still carry the Air NZ livery, operate the Air NZ routes (ie AKL-SYD with complimentary f&b) but with crew employed by Freedom.
-
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:39 pm

Quoting TG992 (Reply 14):
I really thought I'd been clear enough in the original post but obviously not.

I thought you were very clear.

The Freedom crews are cheaper. Yes? No?

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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:40 pm

So will NZ still operate ther 744 AKL-BNE services and 767 Transtasman services or will this all be A320?
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 16):
So will NZ still operate ther 744 AKL-BNE services and 767 Transtasman services or will this all be A320?

Read reply 3.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 3):
Basically what it means is that all A320 operations for NZ will be operated by Freedom Air crews but operated as NZ flights. Short Haul destinations operated by Long haul aircraft will continue to be operated by NZ long haul crews.

What will the seat pitch be on the NZ A320's? Will it remain the same as current?
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:00 pm

Thanks my bad for not reading the whole thing lol
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TG992
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:08 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 17):

What will the seat pitch be on the NZ A320's? Will it remain the same as current?

The Air NZ aircraft ARE NOT CHANGING AT ALL.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):

The Freedom crews are cheaper. Yes? No?

Yes. I believe the cabin crew start out on about 23-24k plus extras.  boggled  The pilots are also earning a lot less - maybe 100k?
-
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:19 pm

Quoting TG992 (Reply 19):
The Air NZ aircraft ARE NOT CHANGING AT ALL.

Ok, cheers TG992. Havn't even flown on the NZ A320 yet. SJ's aren't that nice, seat wise, to cramped and seat pitch is non exsistant it seems, though I am 6"2 and a bit.
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:40 pm

Good to see NZ A320s will still remain in NZ colours even thou SJ will operate the flight. Would any extra services be added as a result of this change over?
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:47 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 21):
Would any extra services be added as a result of this change over?

No, the only changes are to the crewing arrangements onboard.

SJ have been recruiting additional cabin crew to ramp up to this for some months now, but only offering training contracts, and then subsequent temporary contracts. In case, for whatever reason, this plan fell through.

Now that the i's are dotted, and t's are crossed, I would think it likely some permanant contracts be offered to SJ cabin crew. Would I be correct in this assumption?
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:57 pm

Why doesn't NZ just pull it's aircraft out of most of the routes accross the tasman and shove SJ in there, like QF and JQ?

QF has kept some of their flights trans tasman where it's needed (where more biz class pax fly) and the rest are Jetstar........ why is NZ doing this big confusing mess?
 
TG992
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:01 pm

Quoting TG990 (Reply 23):
Why doesn't NZ just pull it's aircraft out of most of the routes accross the tasman and shove SJ in there, like QF and JQ?

Because a large proportion of our passengers require amenities such as lounges, frequent flyer programmes, business class, inflight food and beverages. They do not wish to pay for their food or be subjected to PA games and facepainting.

Another reason is that as part of a global alliance NZ needs to offer a reasonably comprehensive network in our part of the world. SJ doesn't cut it in those conditions.
-
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:04 pm

Quoting TG992 (Reply 5):
I think those of us under 40 have to say that, judging by the deterioration in conditions over the last 10 years, it's going to be virtually impossible to have a long-term career in this industry anymore. Sad, but true.

Rumour going round the place is that Air NZ will have 1800 employees in around 18 months to 2 years time.
Basically becoming a virtual airline, own a few planes have a few bosses earning a big pay packet and everyone else will be contracted in when required, looks like this is the start of it, at the end of the day why do you need employees? all they do is ask for wages and keep the planes flying!
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:05 pm

Quoting TG990 (Reply 23):
why is NZ doing this big confusing mess?

This is NO "big confusing mess" - as far as the travelling public are concerned there'll be NO difference.

Passengers fly PacificBlue and don't know that the cabin crew are actually employed by Contract Aircrew Services.

Passengers fly Qantas or Jetstar and don't know the cabin crew are actually employed by Jetconnect.

Passengers will fly Air New Zealand and not know or care that the flight attendants are actually employed by Freedom Air.

The Air New Zealand brand is so strong there is no way that could afford to be lost across the tasman by replacing it completely with Freedom. Qantas obviously deemed their trans tasman brand to not be as strong or necessary hence they're replacing it with Jetstar.
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:12 pm

Is the LAX-Pacific Islands-AKL service going to be transferred to Freedom Air as well, or will it stay with the current 767? I would think the A320 wouldn't have the legs to make some of those islands from LAX, so I would guess it would stay with the 767, no?

-Copa
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:15 pm

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 27):
Is the LAX-Pacific Islands-AKL service going to be transferred to Freedom Air as well, or will it stay with the current 767? I would think the A320 wouldn't have the legs to make some of those islands from LAX, so I would guess it would stay with the 767, no?

Only EXISTING A320 services will now be crewed by Freedom Air hired staff rather than Air New Zealand hired staff.

No routes will be changed. Any flights operated by anything other than an A320 will be unchanged.
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:46 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 20):
SJ's aren't that nice, seat wise, to cramped and seat pitch is non exsistant it seems, though I am 6"2 and a bit.

The SJ branded A320's are identical inside to the NZ ones now. They have been progressively refitted with the leather seats over the past few weeks.

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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:37 pm

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 29):
The SJ branded A320's are identical inside to the NZ ones now. They have been progressively refitted with the leather seats over the past few weeks.

Ah ok, thats good to hear!
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:47 pm

ok, ok i see now lol...

makes sense once it's drilled in.

i can see as part of the star alliance NZ needs those trans tasman operations still.

thanks for clearing up
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:17 pm

As previously said it is ONLY A320 services. All other services will be operated by NZ longhaul crews.
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:41 pm

Regardless of what it is called, another airline will be flying the routes, with its own operating certificate.

It is a somewhat sad day for me that Air New Zealand cannot - as it presently functions - successfully operate the routes it has flown since its very earliest days as TEAL.

Routes which, some might say, are the connective tissue of the alliance between Australia and New Zealand, routes which connect New Zealand to its closest - and very wealthy - neighbor on the one part and with the collection of island nations of which Auckland is the commercial capital on the other.

Bean counters triumphant, I suppose.

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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 33):
Regardless of what it is called, another airline will be flying the routes, with its own operating certificate.

It is a somewhat sad day for me that Air New Zealand cannot - as it presently functions - successfully operate the routes it has flown since its very earliest days as TEAL.

Routes which, some might say, are the connective tissue of the alliance between Australia and New Zealand, routes which connect New Zealand to its closest - and very wealthy - neighbor on the one part and with the collection of island nations of which Auckland is the commercial capital on the other.

Bean counters triumphant, I suppose.

mariner

Just remember it will be just like Mt Cook ,Air Nelson and Eagle Air operated flights domestically they are all operated by those airlines but 100% owned by Air NZ this will be the same with the A320 operated by Freedom but still 100% owned by Air NZ ...But all services operated by the 737 internationally will still be operated by Air NZ pacific crew (well should be domestic now we have lost the tasman)
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:18 am

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 34):
Just remember it will be just like Mt Cook ,Air Nelson and Eagle Air operated flights domestically they are all operated by those airlines but 100% owned by Air NZ this will be the same with the A320 operated by Freedom but still 100% owned by Air NZ

I guess we disagree as to whether this is a good thing or not.

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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:35 am

Quoting TG992 (Reply 19):
The Air NZ aircraft ARE NOT CHANGING AT ALL.

They are actually a little. The NZ A320's appear to have an extra row being added gradually to give them C8/Y144. Checked in an OJA flight today with the new seat map and saw a message to all Load Controllers about a Weight and Balance change to OJF so guessing the whole fleet is being done?

NZ1, any light?
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:49 am

Dont shoot me down for this one guys but I was just thinking....why doesnt NZ let SJ fly to all the destionations that they have dropped. Destinations that are outside of Australia and Pacific Islands. Like NGO and SEL and utilize some of the B767s that they are getting rid of. Similar to what QF is doing with Jetstar
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:56 pm

Quoting Flyer88 (Reply 37):
why doesnt NZ let SJ fly to all the destionations that they have dropped.

I think that's a potentially excellent idea. Would make sense. Certainly nothing to be "shot down" about.
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 38):
I think that's a potentially excellent idea. Would make sense. Certainly nothing to be "shot down" about.

Awww thanks......respected users list, yup lol
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:55 pm

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 36):
They are actually a little. The NZ A320's appear to have an extra row being added gradually to give them C8/Y144. Checked in an OJA flight today with the new seat map and saw a message to all Load Controllers about a Weight and Balance change to OJF so guessing the whole fleet is being done?

Yep, all the A320s being done, OJF being done this week and another one comes in at the weekend. At least 8 or 9 (probably more) have been through the hangar already having the extra seats added.
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 36):
Checked in an OJA flight today with the new seat map and saw a message to all Load Controllers about a Weight and Balance change to OJF so guessing the whole fleet is being done?

NZ1, any light?

Everything you asked is correct. About 4 to go I think.

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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:51 pm

Quoting Flyer88 (Reply 37):
Dont shoot me down for this one guys but I was just thinking....why doesnt NZ let SJ fly to all the destionations that they have dropped. Destinations that are outside of Australia and Pacific Islands. Like NGO and SEL and utilize some of the B767s that they are getting rid of. Similar to what QF is doing with Jetstar

The rumour that this may happen has been floating around for some time. I wouldn't be surprised at all.
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:12 pm

Quoting Flyer88 (Reply 37):
utilize some of the B767s that they are getting rid of. Similar to what QF is doing with Jetstar

We can't, mainly because we have not re-newed the leases and the lease companies have already found new homes for them. However, we could transfer the 5 763's that are staying in the fleet over the next 4-6 years.

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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:27 pm

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 43):
However, we could transfer the 5 763's that are staying in the fleet over the next 4-6 years.

Is that a hint?
 
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:16 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 35):
Quoting Nzrich (Reply 34):Just remember it will be just like Mt Cook ,Air Nelson and Eagle Air operated flights domestically they are all operated by those airlines but 100% owned by Air NZ this will be the same with the A320 operated by Freedom but still 100% owned by Air NZ
I guess we disagree as to whether this is a good thing or not.

mariner

Believe me i dont think its a good idea .. But for a while the pacific crew will still be operating some of the A320's till their crew numbers fall to levels to get rid of another aircraft to freedom so we will still be operating some of the routes for a while yet..

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 43):
Quoting Flyer88 (Reply 37):utilize some of the B767s that they are getting rid of. Similar to what QF is doing with Jetstar

We can't, mainly because we have not re-newed the leases and the lease companies have already found new homes for them. However, we could transfer the 5 763's that are staying in the fleet over the next 4-6 years.

NZ1

This has been a big rumour floating around for quite a while at NZ

[Edited 2006-04-06 13:17:27]
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:54 pm

Quoting Flyjetstar (Reply 44):
Is that a hint?

Maybe!!!!!  Smile

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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:04 pm

Call me snobby but I am not going to tolerate face painting, loo rolls down the aslie and being spoken to like a 14 year old on their first overseas trip to the Gold Coast...and have to pay for food and bev to boot.

I am so used to the service NZ offers I refuse to demeen myself by flying Freedom to save $30.

Maybe cos I have flown Air New Zealand too often I except a certain standard.

IMHO....Freedom is not that standard....and thats only my opioion.
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RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:16 pm

Quoting 767ER (Reply 47):
Call me snobby but I am not going to tolerate face painting, loo rolls down the aslie and being spoken to like a 14 year old on their first overseas trip to the Gold Coast

SJ don't play toilet rolls down the aisle or paint passengers faces. Not sure if DJ pass the toilet rolls on Tasman runs anymore. When I first flew SJ in December I found the crews to be very professional, and service levels to be better then other LCCs I've flowen with (DJ and JQ), apart from a real old grumpy FA who obviously had a very bad experience with a camera in her younger years.
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dj738
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:35 pm

RE: Air NZ To Transfer Aus/PI Ops To Freedom Air

Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting 767ER (Reply 47):
I am so used to the service NZ offers I refuse to demeen myself by flying Freedom to save $30.

You won't be flying FREEDOM. You'll be flying AIR NEW ZEALAND and be offered the AIR NEW ZEALAND product. Your cabin crew will be employed by Freedom, but you, as the general travelling public, will be none the wiser about that fact as you are served complimentary food, drink etc, in your tan leather seat in your white A320.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 48):
Not sure if DJ pass the toilet rolls on Tasman runs anymore.

DJ do, still, from time to time do this. Depends on the crew on the day.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 48):
When I first flew SJ in December I found the crews to be very professional, and service levels to be better then other LCCs I've flowen with (DJ

I'm dissappointed to hear this! We'll have to do better for you next time!

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