User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5837
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:03 pm

Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:24 pm

As early as July you'll be able to get screened at Russia's DME at security checks.

How long before we see them in the US?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...V0?xml=/news/2006/04/06/wlie06.xml

[Edited 2006-04-06 07:24:57]
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13072
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:30 pm

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
As early as July you'll be able to get screened at Russia's DME at security checks.

Oh Jesus H. Christ. What's next then? Strip searches and cold de-contamination showers?  Wow! I mean, what exactly is the purpose of using a lie detector at security checkpoints?  Yeah sure

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
How long before we see them in the US?

It wouldn't surprise me if the TSA actually does implement it in the future.  Wink
 
thomasphoto60
Posts: 3713
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 1:04 pm

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:32 pm

Now that sends chills down my spine. I imagine ever privacy advocacy group in the country would be up in arms if the US were even remotely contemplating this. Still, that does not mean it will not happen. Let's pray that it fails, miserably.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:33 pm

Another sign that Putin is an autocratic dictator. Lie detectors are prohibited in civilezd countries.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
MrMcCoy
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:17 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):

Oh Jesus H. Christ. What's next then? Strip searches and cold de-contamination showers? Wow! I mean, what exactly is the purpose of using a lie detector at security checkpoints? Yeah sure

It's designed to prevent Airbus from quoting any further A380 delays.. Big grin Ok ok, low blow.  duck 
It only takes five years to go from rumor to standard operating procedure.
 
thomasphoto60
Posts: 3713
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 1:04 pm

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:37 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 3):
Lie detectors are prohibited in civilezd countries.

If memory serves, in the US evidence from a polygraph can not be used in court. I am certain that the 'legal eagles' that frquent this forum will correct me if I am wrong.
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:11 pm

Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 5):
If memory serves, in the US evidence from a polygraph can not be used in court.

I believe you are correct.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:02 pm

I think things are going overboard now.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
User avatar
mats
Posts: 544
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:20 pm

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:31 pm

Lie detectors are notoriously unreliable. Throughout the Cold War, the USSR critized the CIA for its reliance on polygraph testing.

But who cares if it works? Who cares if it's intimidating and uncivilized? This is the "War on Terror." Anything goes!
 
b777a340fan
Posts: 652
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:42 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:28 pm

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
How long before we see them in the US?

Never...like someone mentioned above, it's not 100% reliable and therefore has never been reason to prove guilt in US courts. Imagine how long the lines would be to go through security! I think you'd need to check in 5 hours before your domestic flight and come in the previous night for international flights. Just gives me the warmest feeling, mmmm.  blush 

Quoting Thorben (Reply 3):
Lie detectors are prohibited in civilezd countries.

Hmmm, not really. The United States use polygraph tests for top secret clearances.
 
nitrohelper
Posts: 406
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:32 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting Mats (Reply 8):
Lie detectors are notoriously unreliable.

I have a family friend that was in charge of polygraphs for the state,he also taught and certified other operators. He maintained that with modern technology the machines are much more accurate. He also told us that he could tell when someone was able to "beat" the machines.
The defence lawyers are the ones keeping the "unreliable" argument in the system. He always said "if you are guilty, never take the test" !  liar 
 
b777a340fan
Posts: 652
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:42 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting Nitrohelper (Reply 10):
I have a family friend that was in charge of polygraphs for the state,he also taught and certified other operators. He maintained that with modern technology the machines are much more accurate. He also told us that he could tell when someone was able to "beat" the machines.
The defence lawyers are the ones keeping the "unreliable" argument in the system. He always said "if you are guilty, never take the test" !

I know this doesn't have to do anything with airplanes in general, but the attorneys' argument remains valid. Polygraph tests were never 100% full-proof accurate. In the US, you're considered innocent until proven guilty. Even if there was a 99.99% chance that wo/man was lying, the fact that there's a 0.01% chance that s/he is telling the truth, then you must acquit. On the day it is scientifically proven that polygraph tests are 100% accurate, then you may have case. As of right now, only a DNA test can be used in court to convict someone.
 
GVWOW
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:09 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:05 am

I can remember bitter battles started because of polygraph tests. It is only a matter of time before so-and-so sues because they where "mistreated and subjected to unfair tests ".......
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 11):
As of right now, only a DNA test can be used in court to convict someone.

unless there are twins...then things tend to get a bit dicey..but that is where other evidence comes into play!

back to the subject..........unless there is data backed by scientific evidence, a lie detector won't fly..no pun intended.........
"Up the Irons!"
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 5):
If memory serves, in the US evidence from a polygraph can not be used in court.

I believe you are correct.

-Mir

Not only can it not be used, it is often wrong, and can easily be beat by someone trained in doing so. And as a former head of the KGB, Mr. Putin well knows this for it was the KGB who developed the training to do so.

And before you all get into a panic about having to take a lie detector test, it usually requires at least an hour in a nice quiet room. I can just see the line going back 20 or so miles.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Mich
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:18 pm

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:36 am

Would be faster to drive to your destination.

Test results are not admissible in any U.S. court, State or federal. It can and does however influence those involved when the results of pass or fail are leaked to the press. Most TSA people cant handle the job as it is but lets give em more to do.
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting Mich (Reply 15):
Would be faster to drive to your destination.

Test results are not admissible in any U.S. court, State or federal. It can and does however influence those involved when the results of pass or fail are leaked to the press. Most TSA people cant handle the job as it is but lets give em more to do.

The CIA used to test their spooks every year this way, and that is how Aldrich got through, eventhough there were all sorts of warning flags about him.

Anyone who uses the "lie detector test" is at best fooling himself. However, I have to agree that the bean brains running TSA -- when they are not trying to seduce 14-year-old girls over the internet -- may well think it is a good idea, as you suggest.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13072
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting Mich (Reply 15):
Would be faster to drive to your destination.

Or just don't go to DME and rather fly out of SVO.  Wink These lie detector tests will be introduced so far only at DME, not SVO.
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 11):
I know this doesn't have to do anything with airplanes in general, but the attorneys' argument remains valid. Polygraph tests were never 100% full-proof accurate. In the US, you're considered innocent until proven guilty. Even if there was a 99.99% chance that wo/man was lying, the fact that there's a 0.01% chance that s/he is telling the truth, then you must acquit. On the day it is scientifically proven that polygraph tests are 100% accurate, then you may have case. As of right now, only a DNA test can be used in court to convict someone.

No, you innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Some how I think that 0.01% (1 in 10000 chance of telling the truth) would fall well under the reasonable doubt limit. Not that I think polygraphs would reach that level of accuracy. There are functional imaging tests performed with MRI that look at activity in the brain that are supposedly much more reliable at detecting when a person is telling a lie. Of course that requires an expensive piece of equipment....
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
787engineer
Posts: 545
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:08 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
unless there are twins...then things tend to get a bit dicey..but that is where other evidence comes into play!

Just to clarify, only identical twins have the same DNA  Wink. I'm a fraternal twin. . .drat! that means I can't go out and kill someone and pin it on my brother!  mischievous 
 
RobTrent
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:48 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:40 am

I thought this may be a belated April fools joke until I checked it out.

It is a rediculous idea and as far as I can tell unworkable.

What next Blood tests?

Also the inference in the post regarding further questioning is rather sinister.
I need to check out what laws cover human rights I think - simply to be aware.
T7 - You know it makes sense !
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12389
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:29 am

In the USA, Lie Detectors are really only used in internal investigations by government agences, such as the CIA or certain police forces upon their officers. They used to be used by employers and the bonding companies for empoyers upon prospective employees or for theft control, but over the years many states then the Federal government banned their use by private employers. I recall when I went for a job in a store by in 1974, I had to get one for the bonding. One can have a privately done test to try to clear them of a crime (and some lawyers may have a client do so). No court in the USA allows the use of lie dectector tests as evidence either way.
 
ChicagoFlyer
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:00 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:33 am

I was going to be the first to debunk the story-after searching Google news I saw Daily Telegraph as the only source, with reprints from other publications but not mainstream media; and the same guy (Adrian Blomfield) wrote a shorter version in Washington Times (which is far from a reliable new outfit).

At the same time... it seems that it's true. Here's a press release from the company that operates DME
http://www.eastline.ru/eng/news/news.asp?ID=957

The technology comes from the Israelis (NEMESYSCO is the company name, misspelled in the press release form the DME guys). Apparently it's already in use by the insurance companies to weed out false claims.
http://www.nemesysco.com/technology.html

As everyone here I am less than thrilled at the prospect, but at the same time I understand that when two airplanes are blown up on the same day, Russia has an aviation security problem. Are they using a heavy-handed approach to combat it? I guess so, but so is El Al... I am still wondering how it can be implemented for every deaprting passenger--sounds a bit extreme!
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 9):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 3):
Lie detectors are prohibited in civilezd countries.

Hmmm, not really. The United States use polygraph tests for top secret clearances.

Yes and no. I was not subjected to a polygraph for my SSBI TS clearance. I did have a very lengthy interview with the DSS agent. They also interviewed and visited many family, friends, and co-workers above and beyoned the list I gave them. Lifestyle questions (i.e.-Do you screw sheep? Are you a swinging bisexual?) are also out of bounds as well for the SSBI.

If you require SCI (Special Compartmentalized Information IIRC) clearance for certain billets then the polygraph and lifestyle questions can come into play though not always.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 16):
The CIA used to test their spooks every year this way, and that is how Aldrich got through, eventhough there were all sorts of warning flags about him.

So many warning flags about Ames were missed it was almost comical except that people lost their lives over it. IIRC he was privy to the information in the CIA about the presence of a mole (him) and he worked to discredit it. In the same vein Robert Hanssen was responsible for the FBI investigation into the search for him and he did a great job of squashing info. It was the shakeup after the Ames fallout that led to many of the rules that Hanssen took advantage of being changed away from his favor.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Lie Detector Will Be Used At Security Checks.

Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 5):
If memory serves, in the US evidence from a polygraph can not be used in court. I am certain that the 'legal eagles' that frquent this forum will correct me if I am wrong.

Tests have shown that lie detectors have a chance of about 50% of showing a false positive.
They have a chance of about 30% of showing a false negative.

So if you're telling the truth you're just as likely to get the right answer by flipping a coin, when you're not telling the truth your chances are slightly better using a lie detector.

That's why they're never (or rarely) used as a single instrument anymore, but only to give an indication for investigators to get a general idea about the reliability of some information.
I wish I were flying

Who is online